BS: Why not English tradition?

Subject: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:34 PM

Having just spent a day telling my class of six year olds about Guy Fawkes I discovered that very few of them had ever seen a guy on a bonfire let alone know why we celebrate Guy Fawkes day. It made me think of how many other English traditions are being lost because people either don't bother or worse make fun of anything which could be called traditional. Our childrn have started following the American traditions of Halloween and trick or treat but because they have never been part of our culture it's all a bit half hearted but they ignore anything that is. Those of us who are Morris dancers will be used to the jibes of passers-by and the very poor press given by the media where it is always a joke item and yet these things are OUR traditions. Even in the folk world so many people play Irish diddly diddlies but turn their noses up at English songs and tunes. Why??

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Cobble
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:44 PM

Quiet right Mrs Duck, they call it bonfire night not Guy Fawkes night anymore. I think its like everything else now Commercialism rears its ugly head, profits rule and the reasons for the tradition disappear in smoke so to say.

Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:50 PM

The English tradition was/is victim of the class system. The peoples music and dance was stolen from the people and 'tarted' up.

The songs and music were printed, transcrbed and arranged to be played on pianoforte in Victorian parlours.

The majority of English melodeon players learn their tunes from the printed page and are largley terrified of attempting to play anything with 'balls'.

There is no living link between the English tradition and the people. It does free them however to take the music and traditions of other countries and do a passable job of samba, salsa and line-dancing.

Not to sure I will miss burning folk in effigy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: wildlone
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:56 PM

But to be English is racist according to our great socialist leaders.
Sorry Mrs Duck I meant to say according to those spin doctor lead spineless things in westminster that were elected to run this country of ours, They could not run for a bus.
dave who still knows what the 23rd April means.
"click" .

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:06 PM

This is my first time here. English is a language, language is a virus...those who feel English tradition is lost ought to go back and read the notes they have written......Guy Fawkes would have known better.........in any case have a good fire...then get out the english grammar book. I hate to be odd, but don"t blame the yanks....I have seen the enemy...it is us.

Jack

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:06 PM

Yer right there Mrs D. I still can't find anyone who remembers the rules of 'Gobs'. Kinda sad ain't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM

Not English wildlone it's 'British that has ended up with the racial overtones. I am no more on the side of this current government than you are and don't see where they fit in with the word socialist but I have always been a bit unhappy about the term British whereas English is what I am!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM

What is it with the English?.

This spawned three versions and contained a lot of good stuff. Not too sure there were many answers though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:19 PM

God forbid Shambles that line dancing become the new tradition!!! I do not blame anything on the Yanks, Jack nor do I consult my book of English grammar when typing a mudcat message!!Please note the capital!!!!PPersonnaly I think Guy Fawkes did know better and was quite justified in his actions but that is not really my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:22 PM

That's a silent 'P' as in bath!!!and I know I've put the n's and l's the wrong way round but ...........

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Burke
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM

Isn't Guy Fawkes day awfully anti-Roman Catholic? Are you sure you want to keep burning in effigy alive? Halloween & All Saints day are closely related to Samhain & not something invented west of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

Not so sure about the majority of melodeon players, don't know them all. In our band we have 3 people who can play melodeon, none of us is capable of playing from sheet music and we'll give any tune you like a fair crack!
I love the morris tunes and learn't most of mine on the road and found that if I sat in the corner of a bar and quietly played you soon got an audience that tapped along and bought you a pint.
Mrs. Duck I think you are right about the ridicule from the press and media (unless they want to shoot a quaint holiday video). They don't get a lot of problem down here from the public though and we have two local established local sides and a third just starting. Iv'e got 12 kids interested the head's permission and the parents think it's great and I'm just trying to persuade a dancer or 2 come along and teach and we're away. Wish me Luck!
KJ

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: roopoo
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 03:43 AM

As little Roman Catholic kids (now lapsed and gone C of E which is something of a reverse trend) we were never forbidden to celebrate Guy Fawkes night. But everyone called it bonfire night mainly, even 40 years ago, when this accursed imported begging called Trick or Treat was unheard of. (Don't get me started on the carol singers who didn't know any carols!) You don't see kids out much (at least round here) with the truly English form of begging known as "Penny for the Guy", and that seems to have dropped off in the last 10 years. It used to be fun to see which of 'em had the most brass-faced cheek in passing off a stuffed bin bag and a balloon as a guy! Gone are the days when we used to nag for dad's old jacket and trousers, and the shops sold masks made out of egg carton cardboard specifically for the purpose. The last one I made was life-sized and we were allowed to take him round the neighbours houses to beg pennies. And it WAS only pennies too!

You know, if the kids wanted to get up to no good, they only had to wait for (I think it's tonight, Nov 4th) Mischief Night (aka Mickey night, Punkie night, etc) which IS English and IS old and gives them just as much licence to lob eggs at doors and the like, but without the scrounging! The fact that, given some of the choice spirits that lived round here, we used to keep our heads well down, is neither here nor there. I have a sneaky suspicion that fireworks may prove more interesting to the young'uns this year. The village has been quiet the last few years. Perhaps this new breed have NEVER HEARD of it!

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 04:29 AM

Bonfire celebrations are still a big thing down on the South coast of England; barrels of flaming tar are manhandled through the streets, and ENORMOUS bonfires lit; it's very much an inter-town rivalry thing. Whose bonfire's biggest!

But Halloween. Yes, the local kids tend to favour it over penny for the Guy 'cos you can dress up and you have a captive audience when you ring someone's doorbell. The kids who called at my door the other night were dressed up really cute; it was only after I closed the door that I recalled that the innocent little girl in the witch's outfit had had 666 written on her forehead! Scary!

Yesterday there were some kids at the local railway station with their Guy; they could have done with one of mouldy's egg box carton masks; they'd had to make do with a halloween skeleton mask. Not the same...

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 04:36 AM

You lament the media's joking about Morris dancers and I agree with you. It is a real shame. But you then refer to another country's music as "Irish diddly diddlies." I presume your heart's in the right place, Mrs Duck, but that's quite insensitive and offensive. Don't you see that?

By the way, the observance of Halloween is an English custom. New England (the genesis of Halloween observance in the USA) was colonised by the English some 350 years ago. The mumming tradition in the USA comes from England. Halloween was an old Druid custom that got folded into Christianity when the Romans colonised England. In actuality, the Americans are giving you back your own very English custom.

I agree with mouldy above. I remember from 1960 that it was called Guy Fawkes Day but Bonfire Night.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: pict
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 05:41 AM

Halloween is a Celtic tradition the English are not Celts.I'd hazard a guess that most people simply prefer Celtic traditional music to English traditional because it is musically more interesting also Morris dancing is very sedate and not visually as interesting as Irish dancing.I can't imagine a performance as spectacular as the riverdance being based on Morris dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 05:59 AM

I love Sir John Fenwick's The Flower Amang Them All and Bonny at Morn, both of which seem to be Northumbrian tunes. some "Irish diddly diddlies" are wonderful tunes others to me seem bland, as can Morris tunes also. Which tunes do you like? I am always looking for new ones to try

I do agree that in England the people on mass seem to be embarrassed by our own traditions and songs and that is a great shame. This seems to be our problem though Mrs Duck it is the fault of English people if we scorn our own musical heritage. I believe in Ireland the same problem was foreseen and steps taken to encourage all things 'traditional', now rather than being seen as embarrassing or old fashioned 'Tradition' is a major source of employment and pride. Perhaps Chris Smith and the lottery commission should be made aware of these concerns?

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:07 AM

I would guess that the lack of the guy burning on the bonfire is due to someone sowhere along the line coming up with the notion that it would give kids the idea of burning real people...

As for the other bits, I guess this is a price we pay for being more of a global community with people becoming more and more aware of what happens elsewhere and adopting traditions and ideas (it is not just tradition effected) from elsewhere although I have no idea why some are chosen in favour of others (I hate trick or treat for example).

Regarding the Irish music, I tend to prefer it to English music, largely because I find a lot of it more lively (although there are plenty of good English songs and tunes). I think a big factor here is marketing and the "celtic" label. The fact is that many of us, myself included, were not born into an English musical tradition and became aware of Irish music before much of our English tradition. Perhaps one could even argue that the Irish were better at adapting their traditions to a changing world than the English were...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:13 AM

One question, does this thread really deserve a BS label? I would have thought that it is very relevant to folk music.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:20 AM

Things like the publuc reaction to Diana's death and the recent fuel protests, demonstrate that there is a need for something we can ALL feel and belong to.

It's just that whatever that may be, it is not the thing that those who carefully try to exclude all other musical influences from, refer to as English Traditional Music.

The link has been broken, the music has been stolen and it is not now possible to repair or to return it. It has compensations, in that The English are now free to encompass everyone elses music and traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM

On my couple of visits to Ireland I have noticed that some of the TV programs are are about heritage and culture, they are very intersting and often better than the mindless rubbish I am faced with. Another program was about an isolated school and how the children use the internet to 'see' beyond their isolation and keep in touch with other schools. At present I haven't been able to locate a likely looking website but came across another school instead. If you would like to have a look Coolderry
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:33 AM

Mike Sutton summed up the problem far better than I can in the Musical Traditions website, here
Sadly there are no real solutions offered...

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 07:21 AM

Thanks for that Gervase, as you said it sums it up nicely

Mrs Duck I have found that school website please take a look at Inver, Barnatra, Ballina, Co. Mayo, Ireland

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 07:45 AM

Some music grabs, lifts and inspires you. This whether it belongs to you or not. The idea that music should grab, lift and inspire you, just because it may belong to you is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 08:00 AM

If a Welsh Catholic Royalist may stick his oar in, my favourite songs are ENGLISH traditional. I'm not one of those Celts who say:

The Scots provide the verse
The Irish provide the music
The Welsh provide the song
The English provide the audience

Oh no, not me. Fact, I know more Yorkshire people to talk to socially than I do Swansea people.

Mike, ducking and grinning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 08:05 AM

Mrs Duck, There is nothing wrong with english tradition, it is not lost. The difference is that the Irish really love music and song, maybe having a strong oral tradition had something to do with it, maybe the nights sitting round the fire without television, telling stories and singing kept it alive until it bacame popular, then it burst forth. I am Irish and I for one really enjoy english music and folksongs, I think there is a great wealth of music in England, especially in the Northumberland area, but it has to be kept alive, If the english don't do it then others will. I know that many of the songs considered to be Irish are in fact english. So don't worry about english traditions, it will be safe in the hands of the Irish, Scots, Americans , Canadians etc until a future generation of english kids realize what they are missing, then there will be a real revival,

I also would not consider Irish music to be diddly diddles.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 08:21 AM

Morris dancers from England entertain the crowds.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 08:56 AM

Right you are, Jimmy, not "diddly diddles."

Of course, it's not possible to value one country's tradition against another. It's ethnocentric and wrong. However, there are reasons why many English people today prefer to listen to Irish music than English music.

First, it's simply more erotic. Just listen to it. It's not the most erotic sounding music on earth but it's more erotic sounding than English music.

Second of all, as mentioned above, it's accepted in its own country and in other parts of the world like America and the Continent. Kids play it, seniors play it, foreigners play it. It's easier to like something that's accepted.

Third, the hype. Irish music has been used as incidental music in movies for 25 years in films that have had nothing to do with Ireland or Irish themes. Riverdance and its spin-offs have made it mainstream. Your auntie has probably seen Riverdance.

Irish music has come close to being imperiled. It was not very cool, for example to play Irish music in the 50s and 60s, during the Formica Age. Country and Western was all the go! It is, however, a living (unbroken) tradition all over Ireland. That is not always the case in many parts of England.

As for Halloween, the English identity (if there is one, single English identity) - like the language - is the sum of a lot of parts. No, the English aren't (pure) Celts but their heritage is partly Celtic. The Halloween custom came to America from England and was a reinterpreted holdover from the past.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 09:29 AM

I suspect that it can be fairly said of any culture that there are some traditions that are better left to die a natural death. Mob rule and lynchings in the American south come to mind. Those things grew out of elements of English culture and classism brought over early on.

There were very many good things similary brought over. With particular regard to music, it's my understanding that very old English songs and tunes form a major element of what we think of as "traditional Apalachian music". The Irish revival of traditionl instrumental and vocal music might be a useful "case study" for those like Mrs. Duck who are concerned about English musical traditions. Most of the credit should probably go to the folks who created Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann 50 years ago. The system of concerts and competitions they started provided a focal point and great motivation for youngsters. Some folks argue that the competitive aspect has gone a bit too far at the moment, but it's hard to argue with success. Then I would look to the Chieftains and the Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem, who popularised it in the market place. Several other groups followed, exposing almost every genre of Irish musical traditions to world audiences.

British groups have had huge success in the world market as well, but they haven't done it with traditional English music. John Lennon was being very accurate when he said the beatles were more popular than god.

English medieval traditions seem to be thriving in many areas of the US. The wide-spread "Madrigal Dinners" phenomenon on college campuses both large and small is one manifestation. The Society for Creative Anachronism is another, which involves far greater numbers of people.

The process of urbanization is probably the biggest threat to things traditional, in every culture. I've rambled a bit here, so I'll close with the observation that the product is no doubt there, out in the rural areas, but an organized effort to expose more people to it seems not to be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM

There are several factors which may be relevant.

Burning a guy I suspect has simply fallen foul of the PC brigade, burning the effigy of a catholic on a bonfire may seem inappropriate to some, however harmless the rest of us may think it.

There has never been the same sense of Englishness as there has Welshness, Irishness or Scotsness (if there is such a word). I come from what was the ancient kingdom of Wessex, there is still a sense in that part of the world of Wessexness as opposed to Englishness (largely because of the influence of Hardy). Many Cornish don't consider themselves English at all. Most Devonians consider their allegiance is to Devon first, England second. This is presumably echoed all over the country.

The Celts have all had to struggle for centuries to keep alive their music, language, culture etc. The Irish in particular had to contend with the occupying English trying to supress their culture. The fight to keep it alive has resulted in a far stronger tradition than the English, who never had an equivalent struggle, became complacent and didn't notice much of what they had slipping away.

Much English music is based in theme and origin around the sea, navy, sailing, fishing, all things nautical. We are less and less an island of sailors, and the musical tradition that goes with it is slipping away. How many shanties so frequently mentioned on this forum were English originally. In the Clancy Brothers reunion concert they pay tribute to the English seafaring songs to which they owed so much in their introduction to "Leaving of Liverpool", one of those songs practically everybody can join in the chorus of.

Many old English traditions are alive and well, but because they exist out of the mainstream you don't hear about them. Someone has already mentioned the barrel burning that is going on this weekend. Visit Padstow on Mayday , or many villages where children still dance round maypoles. Visit the village of Great Wishford in Wiltshire on Oak Apple day, where the villagers are still entitled to gather firewood from the Earl of Pembroke's forest. From the view in front of your TV set English tradition may be dying, stray from the beaten track and you will find much of it alive and well. Of course in some places if you stray too far, and after dark......

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 10:45 AM

I take the point about the further divisions and local loyalties, dividing that sense of Englishness. Having lived in Scotland, I saw the very same thing there, if not stronger.

The thing that unites them there is the common enemy, in this case England. It is that that creates the concept of Scotland as a united nation and of Scottishness.

It has happened in England too. Notably during the early days of World War Two. The local loyalties take a back seat in the face of a common foe. Not that you would notice from the banter, especially in the forces. Ribbing and name calling, like Taffy, Jock and suchlike. Difficult to tell who the foe was sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

Hi Greyeyes!

"The Leaving of Liverpool" is a very interesting song and - no nonsense here - may be less English in its origins than one might assume at first. First, it seems only to have been collected in America... at Sailors Snug Harbor on Staten Island in New York City. Ewan MacColl, who was the first to record it commercially, got it from William Main Doerflinger's book, Shantymen and Shantyboys. For another it has the same melody as and a number of the textual components of an old Irish immigration song, "My Darling When I Think of You" or "The Leavibg of Limerick." (Thank you, Tom!) I am in no position to know which came first, however. The David Crockett, as stated in the song, was an American clipper that was in Liverpool often (and in Cork on at least one occasion) but its main run was New York - San Francisco.

I apologise for the aside... now back to the English tradition...

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 11:25 AM

Liam's brother,

Furthermore the population of Liverpool is made up of a large proportion of Irish. But how many generations do they have to be resident before they become English? My family roots are Irish only 3 generations ago, but tho' I admit to and am proud of my Irish ancestry, and am from Scottish descent on the other side of my family, I am English, born and bred. Certainly the Clancy Brothers considered the song, and many others they sang, English. You may well be right about its origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 12:41 PM

Huge apologies for my use of the term Irish diddly diddly. I meant no offense and was really referring to the manner in which a lot of Irish tunes are played over here that is to say all at the same speed and tempo ie way too fast and with litle feeling. I have absolutely no objection to the tunes themselves

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 12:51 PM

I have no problem with the English tunes either. Except the manner in which they are generally played over here. Too slow and with no feeling for the poor souls who have to listen to them. In a studied and reverential manner that could be described as 'plodilly plodilly'.........No offense meant.

No problem for when you used didily didily, more problem with the explanation as to why......... All a matter of taste, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 12:55 PM

"Studied, reverential, slow", I know what you mean. This is the perception many people have of English folk, I hope it is becoming a thing of the past, many contemporary English folk artists just don't fit these terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 01:05 PM

So we gotta speed up the English stuff a little and slow down the Irish stuff some and everyones happy !
Any tunes you can suggest for me Mrs Duck? What are you favourites?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Zebedee
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM

Last weekend I went to see The Crossing. A fabulous gig performed by some great English, Irish, Scottish and American musicians.

They did a (reasonable) version of The Beatles 'Norwegian Wood' and claimed that it was an 'Irish' song because of all the Irish inflence in Liverpool.

As Americans might say - go figure...

Zeb

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 03:07 PM

Sorry if I came over a little heavy Mrs Duck. I don't really like to get involved in this English v Irish music stuff. I like to play it all. There are those who wish to play and promote English tunes and they feel that to do this they have to exclude Irish or any other styles from sessions to do this.

It is those, I feel who are responsible for "turning their noses up". They seem to think that in order to further this English music they must down others. I feel that you should have enough confidence in your music that it can hold its own anywhere.

The challenge is to make this English session music as exciting as others. As exciting as the "contemporary English folk artists", mentioned above by Greyeyes, manage to do.

Why not get out the fiddles and throw away some of those boxes? Get rid of the dusty collections of sheet music.... Make it more like a joyful marrige you must attend rather than a dull funeral you are obliged to......

Don't make people think they should like it, play it like they must like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: selby
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 04:39 AM

England has tried to hard to become a multiracial society, to be fair and understanding of other people. Through this our music and culture takes a bit knock. As a folkie I cringe when people come back from trips abroad and tell me how they have experienced the tour reps culture night on their package holiday. But when I mention my family and I have danced as part of a morris side they start mentioning bells if music is mentioned they want to know if we can do Dueling Banjo's the Irish Washer Woman (which is an english tune but thought of as irish)and anything from riverdance.If songs are mentioned the fact I have beard I must have a fair isle jumper somwhere and sing songs with my finger in my ear. Our family still enjoy bonfire night & have good get together to burn the garden rubbish, our children know about Guy Fawkes and understand to some he is a hero and to other's a villan but more importantly know the story, people should remember that however we remember them their sacrifice was not in vain, there are perhaps a lot of people at the moment would love to do the same to our goverment of the moment Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 07:04 AM

Selby, England may have tried, but so far England is failing. Look at how easy it is for the tabloids to stir up mass hysteria about asylum seekers. I live in a wholly working-class rock-solid Labour village made up of indigenous rural families juxtaposed with mining families that have moved to this area from Scotland, Wales, Yorkshire, Durham and Northumberland. But Afro-Caribbeans are "niggers" and Asians are "Pakis" and the whole village is in dread of both. There are loads of urban communities where a cosmopolitan outlook is beginnning to prevail,but I think the credit for this goes to the people moving in, not the people here to start with.

Paddymac, shouldn't Gael Linn get a mention there? Youo're right about the danger for CCE of the competition mindset. I went to the Irish dancing world championships in Belfast a few months ago and found the whole atmosphere deeply disturbing and massively commercialised. I would hate to see CCE ending up like that.

Bonfire night is big in Lewes, Sussex, I believe? Is there any catter who can say how strong the religious dimension is in that ceremony (I believe it involves a local church). My guess is that Guido - an incredibly brave bloke, by the way - would be delighted that his name lives on.

I remember "mischief night" in Leeds and my mother being much more horrified that we called it "mischievous night" than at the mischief we wrought. The gathering of wood for the bonfires was called "chumping" and we were amazed to discover that a few mmiles down the road (sorr, up) at Keighley it was called "progging". But then in Keighley, it wasn't bonfire night anyway, it was the far more splendid "plot neight."

And some time back in the early sixties a did in Leeds was burnt to death in a bonfire, when he fell asleep in the inner den which they always had. He was supposed to have been guarding it. A rival gang lit the fire maliciously a few days early without knowing he was in it.

But getting back to the main point, I wonder whether it has something to do with that brilliant perception (Adlai Stevenson?) of Britain having lost an empire and not yet found a role? I know no-one who would sing the British national anthem without feeling self-cnscious if not ridiculous, nor anyone "English" who can understand all that American pride-in-the-flag stuff etc.

Lastly, what are we English to call ourselves in the international community. England is recognised by FIFA and one or two other sporting, etc, bodies, but has no currency at the United Nations. England is a region, like Bavaria, and so we should be calling ourselves United Kingdomers.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Zebedee
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 07:31 AM

Fionn,

Interesting stuff.

Non recognition by the UN is pretty unimportant. The United Nations listen to the one who shouts the loudest, and that is inevitably and invariably America.

Zeb

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 11:06 AM

I have bookmarked the sites Roger and will read them later. Jon sorry about the use of BS(what does it stand for?). Truth is I wss not really thinking specifically about musical traditions and yes we do now have access to many other countries traditions and that's great. I love Irish songs and American songs and Scottish songs and French songs andHebrew songs and Urdu songs shall I go on. Noone is suggesting that we ONLY do English stuff. Actually on a site like this I am probably preaching tp the converted. My main concern was that people outside of the folk scene in England are often unaware of the rich tradition we have and this also applies to non-music traditions. Yes there are places where these are given more prominence but for the vast majority their only contact is the TV and if things are made fun of or given little import then that is how they will continue to be viewed. Selby talked about the idea a lot of people have that folkies walk around with one finger in their ear (actually Norma Waterson told me it works better with one in your ear and the other up your nose!) but it is hardly suprising when so little time is given to folk music on radio and TV(1 hour a week on Radio 2)that people still think of Robin hall and Jimmy Mcgregor in their Aran sweaters from the 60's and that wasn't even English folk!!!The sad thing is if traditions are not upheld they will die.
Mouldy has just posted a thread regarding the death of Arthur Walker from Snaith who she visited a few years ago to hear his memories of plough stot dancing. This was the traditional dance of the East Rding area which could have been lost forever but due to Mouldy's interest was revived and is a t least now back into living memory.
Right I think I'd better go and stuff my guy now!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 11:20 AM

Mrs Duck, BS is generally taken to stand for Bull Shit although there are other interpretations. As for saying sorry, there is no need to. I was only asking a question as I believe that tradition in general and folk music are very closely linked and having brought music into the discussion it definately classed as a musical topic. Just my opinion and there are no hard and fast rules.

Rather than ponder on the use of prefixes, I will say thank you for starting an interesting thread.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 01:05 PM

Mrs Duck you have talked to Norma !!!!!
I am not worthy, though I do have 'bright shiny morning' in front of me right now
The school sites I was pointing out are interesting as one has childrens writing on Irish folklore, and the other has a piece on the local standing stones and peat cutting. The point being that the children are being taught that heritage is important
If nothing else check out the (irish?) dancers with sheaves on the their heads by following the earlier Morris link


no doubt there will be a condom joke along any minute now


Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Nov 00 - 02:53 PM

I have collected a little information about Lewes. These links should allow you to form your own conclusions about it. My own impression is of a night carnival, masses of firecrackers, five brilliant displays, destruction of tableaux of irritating personalities (Pokemon?!), and an element of anti-papistry. (I deliberately choose an archaic expression).

This site has links to various sites with background to the bonfire societies in and around Lewes. Some of them are hosted by a familiar name, which I had no reason to recognise when I first bookmarked it. But they include material from the societies, with their own views of themselves.

Lewes Background

I don't know about local church involvement - I'm of local extraction, but never resident there.

This page includes a background to the history, but also a feedback page, which includes a posting from a society member.

Fawkes page

This book is written by a local, and a Catholic who has a better understanding than I.

Streets of Fire: a Hymn to Lewes and the Bonfire Celebrations, Andy Thomas. Paperback (20 October, 1999) SB Publications; ISBN: 1857701933

Most of what happens has very little religious element, and some of what there is is anti-clerical rather than anti-catholic.

The Guardian www.newsunlimited site for last Wednesday, in the Society section, has an article covering the issue.

The tar barrels, by the way, are mostly oil-drums, halved along the long axis. I believe that once upon a time, barrels were rolled down the steep hill into the river.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 12:31 PM

Hi Greyeyes!

My comments on "The Leaving of Liverpool" are about it's origin and were probably prompted by the fact that I was having dinner with the only person to have collected it just a couple of hours after you wrote. I thought you might be interested in the history of the song.

My opinon is that it could be viewed as an English, Irish or American song based on subject, origin, or place of collection and informant. I'm entirely sure the Clancys would have regarded it as an English song, just as you say.

As far as your questions of ethnicity are concerned, I make no claims of expertise here but... a person's ethnicity is on one hand determined by that individual. Therefore it is quite possible for a person to consider himself, eg. both English and Irish because one has the option of acknowledging more than one background identity. On the other hand, a person's ethnicity is also determinted by those he or she meets. Therefore, it is quite possible for a person to be considered, e.g. Irish in England and English in Ireland. I have lived in England, Ireland, Canada and the United States so this concept of varying ethnicity is something I know a bit about.

Sorry for the digression. And, now, back to the English tradition...

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM

I wonder whether anyone feels "Monty Python sort of spoofing" has been in any way responsible for the lack of respect for Morris dancing that Mrs Duck wrote at the very start of this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 01:23 PM

Vert probably Liam's brother!! Yes Roger about three years ago I attended one of the South Riding Folk weekend where Norma Waterson was one of the guests and even have a tape of her singing along to one of my renditions and vice versa. She is a lovely lady and at no time made any of us feel uncomfortable. By the way who are the Morris dancers on the pictures. They look familiar - it must be the beards and bells!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 01:37 PM

Dan/Liam's brother, good points. I'm not sure about the Python influence, I suspect Morris dancers have been ridiculed since before python, but I'm not (quite) old enough to be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Nov 00 - 02:41 PM

Yer right Greyeyes, LONG before Monty Python. I had a friend who was a Morris Dancer and he only survived because he was a big burly construction guy. People just didn't take the piss out of HIM.

Some other reasons that bonfires are declining is because garbage collection is better than it used to be, hence less to burn, and because of 'clean air' laws against bonfires.

Regarding Englich folksongs: I think that schools must bear some of the blame. They teach highly Bowdlerised versions of songs to children when they are young but never give them the real versions as they grow old enough to appreciate them. So all that they know of English songs are trite children's versions.

The reason that we took to American Square Dancing and International Folk Dancing, instead of English Country Dancing, was because the people at The English Folk Dance and Song Society at that time were such a load of incompetant supercillious arseholes. We just didn't want to mix with people like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 05:47 AM

Hey, selby, just for the record ... the root version of Irish Washerwoman was written by a Welshman for Elizabeth the First (title: Sidanen).

Just like to muddy waters whenever possible! 8-}

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 06:04 AM

Morris dancing too sedate? Go watch a side like the Flag Crackers of Craven and see if you still think that!

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 06:46 AM

I love the 'traditional' stuff which is why I am into folk music and dance. Surely though folk, by very definition, is a living tradition and for anything to stay alive it must evolve.

We are seeing bonfire night being replaced by haloween but does that make haloween any the worse? Or bonfire night any better? Provided there is some true enjoyment, as opposed to just begging for money, to be gained lets get on with traditional evolution. Lets also enjoy this transitional phase where we can celebrate both events!

After all I am sure we all enjoy the contemporary folk music alongside the Child ballads and appreciate Riverdance as much as Three Jolly Sheepskins.

Or am I on my own in having multiple tastes???

LOL

D the G

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 08:23 AM

Here in America, Halloween remains popular because we give the kiddies lots of candy. Maybe you English folk should be handing out gooey sugar treats around the bonfires . . . But really, it's a charming tradition, one of the few here that isn't based on religion or patriotism. The kids (and adults) get to dress up in strange costumes and step outside their normal lives for a day. I think it's a descendent of the old Samhain holiday. If English children are taking it up, maybe it's because it's more fun, or because it speaks to them in some more real way. Traditions evolve, and talking about it doesn't effect that evolution. Especially adults talking about children's games and traditions.

Isn't there an English analog to Samhain/Halloween? Guy Fawkes Day is a celebration of a political event within recorded history. Not quite in the same class as the turning of the seasons, the bringing in of the harvest, the day of the dead, the doors between the worlds opening, and all that. It's also most of a week later. I don't really see the two as being the same, or even related.

As for the music and dance, why in world would any musician give a fig where the tune came from? There are great tunes and terrible tunes in every tradition, and the "great" and "terrible" definitions are completely subjective to each musician. My own opinion about Morris dance is that it is exciting and vigorous and looks terribly traditional, while Irish dance tends to look stilted and overly formalized. The Morris tunes, however, tend to be simplistic. And they have to be played slowly or the dancers will die. Irish dance tunes, on the other hand, tend to be more complex, faster, and the musicians change tunes in the middle of the dance to keep things interesting. In general, I tend to like the English tunes that aren't Morris tunes a lot, more than I like most Irish tunes (I also like Morris tunes when played about twice as fast as dance tempo). But please refer to the first sentence of this paragraph for my real opinion.

Most of the traditional songs I know have versions from England, Scotland, Ireland, America, and probably Australia. Worrying about which came first is academic musicology, not traditional musicianship. The history of a song or tune, while interesting, doesn't make any difference to the music.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM

The wife's a Morris dancer, John, and I get to see it quite often being a guy who likes to get out of the house and support her activities. I agree, it is exciting, vigorous (certainly is tiring) and very traditional. The kind of Irish dancing you may not have seen is the sean nos or "old style" solo Irish dancing which is very loose and employs the whole body (well, practically the whole body); it's what the modern and rather "stiff-above-the-belt" competitive dancing evolved from and, I'm sure, contributed to other dance forms in the Americas. Irish social dancing has the characteristics you mention above as well.

Anyway, back to the English tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 09:03 AM

Hi everybody!

Just caught up with this thread. First off, I thought "Oh dear, here we go again" - but was pleasantly surprised to see lots of new ideas bubbling up. Special thanks to Gervase for the friendly comments on my article for the Musical Traditions website. One point to add, though. G writes "Sadly there are no real solutions offered... " (in the article). This was deliberate - for two reasons.

a) I wanted the article to start a debate, so I tried to leave it open-ended.

b)I'd already made some (I hope) positive suggestions in a previous MT posting. It had a long preamble, which I'll spare you, but the recommendations were as follows.

One: if it feels good, do it!

If what you do hurts no-one, and brightens up your life (and maybe even the lives of a few other consenting adults), then why allow others to make you feel ashamed? Stand up for your individuality, before the style police make us all into Prisoners. "I am not a designer logo, I am a free man!"(Patrick McGoohan: come back, we need you.)

Two: if it's worth doing, do it right!

You owe it to the tradition bearers of the past to give your best - your very best - to the material they've handed on to you. And if an audience (however small) is favouring you with its attention, you owe them your best as well. The public image of all things folk has been seriously damaged by too many performances that were ill-prepared, sloppily executed, and worst of all, half-hearted. (Morris men please note!)

Three: before you can teach them, you have to reach them When I started out in the education business, the best advice I ever got from a colleague was this: "Wherever you want them to go, you have to start from where they are." This also applies with performers and audiences. So if plan A isn't getting the message across, try plan B. And how do you tell? By watching and listening to your audience, instead of just playing to (or with) yourself, as too many folkies do.

Four: applause from friends is nice, but applause from strangers is even nicer

Outside the folkie ghetto, there are lots of people and institutions who might be attracted by traditional music, song and dance. But they are unlikely to seek us out if we don't go looking for them. All right, so performing for PTAs, in theatre foyers, behind prison bars, inside wine bars, at college balls or shopping malls, may not be as great an ego trip as doing the main arena at Sidmouth. That's if one has the choice, which most of us don't. But as the gangster said, when they asked him why he robbed banks, "that's where the money is." And even if there's no money, a charity gig still advertises your product to potential customers, who might never have been exposed to it otherwise. So it's an investment, as well as a good deed.

Five: stuff the media! activate the grape-vine!

I believe the normal indifference (and occasional hostility) of the media towards our sort of music is an advantage, not a problem. The media are obsessed with fashion. They need a continual flow of disposable styles and icons to keep the consumer bandwagon rolling. So what's in today has to be out tomorrow (until it comes back in ten years time as retro-chic). Being ignored is better than being praised to the skies one day, and condemned to the trash-can the next. Traditional music can spread its message effectively enough by word of mouth, and its electronic amplifier - the Web.

Six: if there's anybody out there listening, please ring

Value is not intrinsic. Things have value only because people believe they are valuable. If one person still believes, really believes, that the English tradition is worth saving, then it is worth saving. So put your hands together: don't let Tinker Bell die!

I wrote all that a year or so ago - but would still stand by it today. Further comments very welcome.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 07 Nov 00 - 03:22 PM

Does ANYONE know the rules of "Gobs" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:01 PM

Penny, thanks for those links about Guy Fawkes night in Lewes. They and what you say seem to underline that how the night is celebrated these days, and even in Lewes, it's not got much to do with religion anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Nov 00 - 04:35 PM

Actually, Lewes is really (and this is a serious Pythagorean secret), a massive maths problem. There is a restricted network of streets, with only two bridges across the tidal Ouse (Used to be only one, which must have made it more difficult). There are five processions, of variable length. Some of these may join together at certain times, but not all. Some of the streets are used by all societies, some are not. Obviously no two processions may use the same street at the same time, though some may turn back upon themselves. All societies visit the war memorial. Some societies must use certain streets in order to maintain their right to do so. Processions begin at about 5 and go on until about 10, and make repeat journeys, until they finally process to their firesite for the bonfire and the fireworks. Someone has to work all this out! Judging from the adherence to the projected times, they haven't got it right yet.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: R!
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:54 PM

Mike of Northumbria said it right: you've got to perform where the people are, regardless of how unglamorous (well, almost) the venue. Here in the southern New Jersey/Philadelphia region I can catch an Irish act almost every week; a Scots act a bit less frequently. English music is extremely rare. OK, so tonight Kate Rushby and Fairport Convention are both appearing in Philadelphia. It may be ages before that happens again. I can go into any Tower or HMV record store and buy all the Irish and Scottish CDs I want (you should see my collection). English CDs are another story. Until I was hobbled by disability three years ago, I went English Country Dancing once a week. Perhaps some government underwriting is in order to support performers of traditional English music and dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:27 PM

Where are you Rowana? Why not come on down to Mudcat Radio one Tuesday night? You can't be too far away.

bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:49 PM

Perhaps some government underwriting is in order to support performers of traditional English music and dance.

Rowena I fear that would mean that there never will be a link between the music and the people.

There is fine Engish music and fine English performers but little general in it interest from the English people. Spending their money to tell them that they should like it, I fear would make it worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:24 AM

Shambles I stumbled across folk music via the Andy Kershaw show on BBC Radio 1, a show which has been axed recently. If I had not heard the music for free on the radio I would never have realised that I really like some folk music. This radio show seems to have been axed due to a perceived lack of interest in the wide range of music aired on it. A wide mix of blues, country, dub, world music (folk) were on offer but the station controller decided that young people (that the station is meant to be for) have a narrow band of musical interest and would not like a varied diet
The BBC gets its funding from the licence fee paying public, many people with a diverse range of musical tastes, and is then spending that money promoting (playing) only certain kinds of music particularly during 'daytime'

I just think traditional music could be encouraged in the way amateur sport and the arts are funded giving it the same legitimacy
Ranting overload...shutting down.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:25 PM

Well yes, underwriting in the respect of playing the music on the radio stations that you and I are paying for, is fine.

It really should have always received equal airing with the classical music that the BBC have decided that we should be exposed to. a large part of the problem is that it has not and it is a little late to do it now.

I will see if I can provide a link to a recent thread called 'Proper Music', which touched more on this aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:28 PM

Proper music

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: R!
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:02 PM

Shambles: 'spose you're right. People don't like to have anything forced on them and financing one type of music rather than another just wouldn't do. (But WHY am I forced to live a life accompanied by a pop music soundtrack? It's everywhere and I can't escape it!) Sorry, just had to say it. I like to think that the songs I sing (badly, in the shower) have been sung by people back through the ages. Like that continuity.

Bert: I'm in NJ - not too near the turnpike or the mall - just a few miles from downtown Philadelphia. Where are you? And here I'll reveal my ignorance: What's Mudcat Radio?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Harry Whitcher
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:38 PM

I have read the thread with interest from Mrs Duck's first comment, through the rhetoric on the English versus the Celts, to the Radio 1 (BBC) "link" from Roger in Sheffield. I learned about folk in the New Forest in Hampshire, I was taught Shanties, Ballads and even music hall (city folk music in my opinion). The heritage is there, but it is unfashionable to be English enough to follow it. As an Englishman I get the impression from the media and politicians that I am "supposed" to feel guilt for the atrocities of my forebears, not rever their traditions. I cannot change the acts of previous generations, nor can I personally bear the guilt. All I can do is to treat everyone the same, whatever their race, religion or creed. But I think that most English people feel that to look to their own traditions, instead of imported ones may be considered racist, and therefore wrong. The net result is that English traditions die out and are replaced by "more acceptable" homogenised ones. Finally, and thanks for bearing with me, I have no problem with halloween, but I do have a huge problem with "trick or treat" imported from ET, and degenerated into teenage begging with menaces, "give me a treat or spend time and money clearing eggs and flour...."

Harry

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:20 AM

Thanks Shambles I am ashamed to say that I completely missed the Proper Music thread. You have said exactly what I meant, and far better than I could have said it
I will direct any more comments to that thread

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:55 AM

Geez, now I'm going to feel bad when I laugh at the 'Morris dancers' on Blackadder...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 12:50 PM

Rowana, just in case Bert doesn't get back to you, the way into Mudcat Radio is via the links right at the top of the page. (The one that says "radio"!) It's live on Wednesday evenings, and you can also select from the archive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:04 PM

Well Mudcat Radio is Tuesday evenings now. Mudcat is in West Chester, PA. Give us a call if you can make it 610 738 9050.

Bert.