Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Lapaget
Date: 12 Jun 19 - 12:19 PM

Every option is possible, devil’s color depends on the time the song was created.
In http://www.colorability.it/2014/03/di-che-colore-e-il-diavolo.html (sorry in Italian but translation services can be used) it is well shown how and why the devil’s color changed through ages, being completely black as the night in XI century, green (color of Islam) in XII century, blue as the sky for economic reasons in France in XIII century, red as sin since the times of Lutero.

Gray (gris) would also be possible in case of a comic song, “gris” meaning drunk.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Monique
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 01:21 PM

Maybe you guys need a translation. I meant...
Nobody says that the original is not "trois hommes en noir" (= three men in black), but that does not prevent the fact that if some people understood "trois hommes noirs" (= three black men), it's because the latter also has a meaning, which is not the original one indeed, but has a meaning all the same. Ditto if they'd been "in" gray with a quite different meaning for "gris" (in Fr. it also means "tipsy"). There would have been no confusion if they had been in light blue, dark green, lemon yellow or cherry red!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Monique
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 01:11 PM

Personne ne dit que l'original n'est pas "trois hommes en noir", mais ça n'empêche pas le fait que si certains ont compris "trois hommes noirs", c'est que ça a aussi un sens, qui n'est pas l'original, certes, mais qui en un tout de même. Idem s'ils avaient été "en" gris avec un tout autre sens pour "gris". Il n'y aurait pas eu de confusion possible s'ils avaient été en bleu clair, vert foncé, jaune citron ou rouge cerise!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Lapaget
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 03:56 AM

À vous de juger:

"Chansons folkloriques à sujet religieux par Conrad Laforte, page 321:

Plusieurs versions possèdent les strophes suivantes en guise d'introduction.
Le soir de noces après souper
trois hommes en noir sont arrivés"

c'est à dire: habillés en noir


Les trois hommes sont les frères de la mariée:

"Ce sont trois méchants frères que j'avais Qui m'avaient fait jurer trois fois Dessus la tête de Saint-André De ne jamais me marier. Le diable est sorti de l'enfer ... "


http://www.songtextemania.com/la_mariee_chez_satan_songtext_alaska.html


"La Mariée Chez Satan Songtext

Le soir des noces après souper On entend frapper à la porte. Trois hommes en noir y sont entrés Ils ont demandé la mariée.

- La mariée n'est pas ici Venez vous asseoir à la table.

- Nous ne voulons ni boire ni manger Nous ne voulons que fort bien danser. Y'avaient pas fait trois tours de danse Voilà la mariée qui entre. La mariée fut enlevée Sans que personne pût l'empêcher.

Le diable est sorti de l'enfer ...
le beau galant ...

Et quand il fut dans les enfers, Il aperçut Marie, sa mie. - Marie, ma mie, si t'es ici, Est-ce bien moi qui en est la cause?

- Ah! non. Ah! non, mon beau galant Ce n'est pas toi qui en est la cause. Ce sont trois méchants frères que j'avais Qui m'avaient fait jurer trois fois Dessus la tête de Saint-André De ne jamais me marier. Le diable est sorti de l'enfer ... "

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Monique
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 05:09 AM

Even if the original song was "trois hommes en noir" (three men [dressed] in black) it doesn't alter the fact that some people understood it as "trois hommes noirs" (three black men) and it certainly made sense for them. These black men are not "Black" from anywhere in the world but their skin is dark because they come from Hell and they are usually portrayed (or imagined) as if somewhat overbaked in an oven. At least it's how pictures of these men from Hell generally appear in folk tales books.

Subject: Trois hemmes EN noir
From: GUEST,Lapaget
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 03:30 AM

Please search “Trois hommes en noir” with “en”, which has a meaning in French

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C9BKJA_enIT725IT726&hl=it&biw=768&bih=909&ei=9QH-XN-mO4PhkgWv-7P4Aw&q=%E2%80%9Ctrois+hommes+en+noir+sont+arriv%C3%A9s%E2%80%9D&oq=%E2%80%9Ctrois+hommes+en+noir+sont+arriv%C3%A9s%E2%80%9D&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.3...27224.30070..30937...0.0..0.665.897.2-1j5-1......0....1.LooZQDli8co

Listen here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l4DwB147080

Pubblicato il 2 giu 2013
Chanson "Trois hommes en noir" tirée de l'album "On n'est pas sorti de l'auberge" disponible en vente à l'Auberge du dragon rouge.

On entend bien le “en”

Or:

Chansons folkloriques à sujet religieux

https://books.google.it/books?id=VZiP7Nj-v4UC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=%E2%80%9Ctrois+hommes+en+noir+sont+arriv%C3%A9s%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=aALx3Svd1g&sig=ACfU3U2c4vNaxFVtDi88xFaMKY9t4qx2eA&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiFtLjard7iAhUG-aQKHUZIBQ8Q6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Ctrois%20hommes%20en%20noir%20sont%20arriv%C3%A9s%E2%80%9D&f=false

and many others

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Monique
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM

Barde's rendition

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 10:49 PM

The Barde album is available on CD from Amazon, but with no liner notes, no record label, no date of release; just a reproduction of the front cover of the original vinyl release, the track listing, and the music.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Monique
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 07:00 PM

Youtube here by "Les Malurons". Another one here by "Les Cailloux".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Lapaget
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 05:17 PM

Reference:

Novelle revue de tradition populaires n 1 1950

Page 6 Le diable au bal

Le monde fantastique dans le folklore de la Vienne

... à force de tourner c’était le Diable qu’a emporté la jeune fille ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Lapaget
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 05:06 PM

I heard the song thirty years ago and still remember:

“Trois hommes en noir sont arrivè”

Which means

“Three men dressed in black did arrive”

which makes sense

And also metric, voyel accented singing as follows:

Trois hòmmes
en nòir
sont àrr
ivè

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jan 18 - 08:13 AM

Brun/Brune is brunet/brunette, eg brown-haired, not black-haired. They could easily mean black-haired.
Is it that if he takes the ring back she has to stay in hell forever?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 18 - 10:21 PM

The Canadian group “Hart Rouge” also sings this song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Un québécois
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:46 AM

Trois hommes noirs. Three men with black souls.

In another context it could mean «three men in black», «three blaqck men» or «three black hair men».

(Sorry for my English is not really good.

In the sixties, a folk group from Québec sang it. «Les Cailloux».

(Another group with the same name sang in France).

«y» means «there» as «là».

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Les Trois Hommes Noirs (Barde)
From: GUEST,Éléanore
Date: 26 May 10 - 02:22 PM

Black actually refers to the color of clothing they are wearing. Because in most of the versions of that song they say "trois hommes EN noir" wich mean three men IN black. In Québec's legends the devil(or is men) is often described as a men dressed in black who love to dance ( wich was considered a sin after midnight)

Subject: RE: Barde: 'Trois Hommes Noirs'
From: Monique
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM

LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS

Le soir des noces après l' souper
Trois hommes noirs sont arrivés
Trois hommes noirs sont arrivés
Ont demandé la mariée.

La mariée n'est pas ici
Venez donc vous y mettre à table
Nous n' voulons ni boire ni manger
Mais nous voulons fort bien danser.

Ils ont pas fait trois pas de danse
Qu' la mariée fut enlevée
Qu' la mariée fut enlevée
Sans que personne pût l'empêcher.

Le lendemain dans son jardin
Le beau galant qui s'y promène
C' qu'il aperçoit venir vers lui
Le diable en forme de cavalier

"Oh dis-moi donc mon cher galant
Tes belles noces d' hier au soir"
Mes belles noces d' hier au soir
Ma mariée fut enlevée.

Mets donc ton pied dessus le mien
Je t'y f'rai voir Marie ta mie
Je t'y amènerai je t'y ramènerai
Sans aucun mal je t'y ferai.

Quand il fut rendu aux enfers
Il aperçoit Marie sa mie
Marie ma mie suis-je la cause
Qu'aujourd'hui-ci tu es ici ?

Oh non, oh non, mon cher galant
Ce n'est pas toi qu'en est la cause
C'est les trois méchants frères qui j'ai
Qu'ont fait jurer de pas m' marier

L'anneau d'or que j'ai dans le doigt
Je t'en supplie de m' le laisser
Si tu lui ôteras ça du doigt
Je m'en vais y tranchir le cou.

Oh j'en n'avais que pour trois mois
Trois mois et puis quelques semaines
Après qu' ça ma bague est ôtée
J'en ai pour tout' l'éternité.


THE THREE BLACK MEN

On the wedding night after dinner
Three black men arrived
Three black men arrived
They asked for the bride.

The bride is not here
Do come to sit at the (dinner) table
We want neither drink nor eat
But we'd dance willingly.

They had not done three steps of dance
That the bride was taken away
That the bride was taken away
Without anyone could stop it

The morrow in his garden
The handsome lover who is having a walk
Sees the devil in form of horseman
Come towards him.

Oh do tell me my dear lover
Your beautiful wedding of yesterday night
My beautiful wedding of yesterday night
My bride was taken away

Do put your foot on top of mine
I will make you see Marie your love
I will take you there I will you bring back
Without doing you any harm.

When he was arrived in hell
He glimpses his love Marie.
Marie my love am I the reason
Why you are here today?

Oh no, oh no, my dear lover
You are not the reason/ you're not involved
It's the three evil brothers that I have
That have done me swear not to get married

The gold ring I have on my finger
I pray you to leave it to me
If you take it out from her finger
I'm going to cut/chop the neck*

Oh I had only three months left
Three months and also a few weeks
Now my ring has been taken out
It will last (I'll stay here) forever.


The two last lines are unclear "Si tu lui ôteras ça du doigt / je m'en vais y tranchir le cou" that translate as "If you will take it out from her finger, I'm going to chop the neck" seem to be told by devil speaking to the young man. It's weird that the young man would take the ring out from her finger if his or her neck is to be chopped. In a variant from the book I linked to in my previous post, the verse goes:

-Le jonc que j'ai dedans le doigt / je vous prie bien de me l' laisser
-Mais si tu ôtes pas du coup / je m'en vais te râper le cou

"The ring/band I have on my finger, I pray you to leave it to me"
"But if you don't take it at once, I'm going to shred your neck"

… which would explain why the young man takes the wedding band from her bride's finger if the last lines are said by the devil so that the young man would take it out from her finger causing her to stay forever in hell, or why the bride removes her wedding band from her finger if the last lines are said by the jealous young man.

I'd want also to confirm that "black" doesn't refer to race nor to the color of their hair or clothes. They're "dark" men coming from hell, so they're supposed to be swarthy/dark grayish.
Grammar points: 1- in these old songs "y" seldom means "there" as in present French, it's just an expletive and can be omitted in translations. 2- in command sentences, "donc" doesn't mean "then", it's a way to insist: "Venez donc vous y mettre à table" (2nd verse) translates as "Do come to sit at the dinner table" with an expletive –then useless- "y".

Subject: RE: Barde: "Trois Hommes Noirs"
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:04 AM

Rechal-I've been wondering what happened to you. I hope you're well.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Barde: "Trois Hommes Noirs"
From: Monique
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:54 PM

Some alternate verses/other versions and a score here (book in French)

Subject: RE: Barde: "Trois Hommes Noirs"
From: GUEST,rechal -- 13 years later
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:06 PM

I used to follow this board a lot, then lost track. Imagine my surprise when I was searching for this song (in the vain hopes that someone had digitized it), and found my nickname in this thread. Spooky!

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Charles
Date: 29 Sep 97 - 05:36 AM

Sounds good. That's where your English is a lot better than mine, so you folks can take over (that's partly why I didn't translate the song "properly". A few years ago I had a stab at translating Jacques Brel & Georges Brassens songs, but I've more or less given up.

Charles

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 97 - 05:12 AM

How about "swarthy" as a translation for "noir," Charles? It seems to have the same "shade" of meaning you suggest. Excuse the pun - I just couldn't help myself.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: noir = black-haired ?
From: Charles
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 09:40 AM

> I'd assume "noir" to mean "black-haired"

French has specific words for hair colour (black-haired is brun). So we wouldn't think of the hair colour. You're right though about noir not being at first about the skin. In France it came to mean your skin is tanned and dirty, and all the usual prejudices apply. Think of Heathcliffe.

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 25 Sep 97 - 05:23 PM

I'd assume "noir" to mean "black-haired," though maybe with overtones of evil.

Before serious immigration of dark-skinned folks into Western Europe, "black" was usually a hair description, just as you might say "blond" rather than "blond-haired." Black Bess, Black Irish, and so on.

Subject: RE: Barde
From:
Date: 24 Sep 97 - 07:50 AM

> Does "noir" in this context indicate race, the > "choleric humour," or perhaps, the long black > gowns of clergy, as in "Blackrobe"? Or is there an > alternate possibility?

It's morally black, evil.

> L'histoire et le provenance > de votre chanson, s'il vous plait?

I don't know where it comes from. It's not literary French - it could come from Quebec or from a rural part of France (eg Britanny). And it's old but not very old (18th century?). Never heard the story before.

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Shula
Date: 23 Sep 97 - 04:10 PM

Dear Charles,

Does "noir" in this context indicate race, the "choleric humour," or perhaps, the long black gowns of clergy, as in "Blackrobe"? Or is there an alternate possibility? L'histoire et le provenance de votre chanson, s'il vous plait?

Merci,

Shula

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 97 - 04:01 PM

Thanks, Charles. I see I got less of an understanding of the song than I thought. I thought the bride was a willing participant. Guess I'd better study French.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS + translation
From:
Date: 23 Sep 97 - 09:50 AM

Here's a translation, as best I can. For those of you that follow (some of) the French I've tried to put the words and their meanings in parallel. It's pidgin English but you'll get a clearer idea what means what. Enjoy,
Charles :-)

   LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS
  **the three men    black
  
    Le  soir  des    noces   apres l'souper
  **The night of-the wedding after the dinner
    Trois hommes noirs sont arrives
  **Three men    black have arrived
    Trois hommes noirs sont arrives
  **Three men    black have arrived
    Ont  demande          la  mariee
  **Have asked (where is) the bride
  
    La  mariee n'est pas ici
  **The bride  is    not here
    Venez donc vous y     mettre a        table
  **Come  then you  there sit    at (the) table
    Nous n'voulons ni      boire ni  manger
  **We   want      neither drink nor eat
    Mais nous voulons fort bien danser.
  **But  we   want    very well dance
  
    Ils  ont pas        fait trois pas   de danse
  **They had not (even) done three steps of dance
    Qu'  la  mariee fut enlevee
  **That the bride  was taken away
    Qu'la mariee fut enlevee
  **That the bride  was taken away
    Sans    que  personne put   l' empecher
  **Without that anyone   could it stop
  
    Le  lendemain dans son jardin
  **The morrow    in   his garden
    Le  beau     galant qui s'y   promene
  **The handsome lover  who there walks
    C'qu'il apercoit venir vers    lui
  **What he sees     come  towards him
    Le  diable en forme de cavalier
  **The devil  in form  of horseman
  
    "Oh dis-moi donc mon cher galant
  **Oh  tell-me then my  dear lover
    Tes  belles    noces   d' hier      au soir"
  **Your beautiful wedding of yesterday at night
    Mes  belles    noces   d' hier      au soir
  **My  beautiful wedding of yesterday at night
    Ma mariee fut enlevee.
  **My bride  was taken away
  
    Mets donc ton  pied dessus    le  mien
  **Put  then your foot on top of the mine
    Je t'  y     f'rai     voir Marie ta   mie
  **I  you there will make see  Marie your love
    Je t'  y     amenerai  je t'  y     ramenerai
  **I  you there will take I  you there will bring back
    Sans    aucun mal  je t'  y     ferai.
  **Without any   harm I  you there will do
  
    Quand il fut rendu   aux    enfers
  **When  he was arrived at the hell
    Il apercoit Marie sa  mie
  **He sees     Marie his love
    Marie ma mie  suis-je la  cause
  **Marie my love am   I  the reason
    Qu'  aujourd'hui-ci tu  es  ici.
  **That today-this     you are here
  
    Oh, Non, Oh, Non mon cher galant
  **Oh  no   oh  no  my  dear lover
    Ce n'est pas toi qu' en    est la  cause
  **It is    not you who of it is  the reason
    C' est les trois mechants freres   qui  j'ai
  **It is  the three evil     brothers that I have
    Qu'  ont  fait jurer de   pas m'marier
  **That have done swear that not me let marry
  
    L'  anneau d' or   que  j'ai   dans le doigt
  **The ring   of gold that I have in   my finger
    Je t'en supplie de m' la laisser
  **I  you  pray    of me it leave
    Si tu  lui oteras   ca   du     doigt
  **If you her take out that of the finger
    Je m'en vais y   tranchir le  cou.
  **I       go   you cut      the neck
  
    Oh j'en n'avais que pour trois mois
  **Oh I    had    only for  three months
    Trois mois   et  puis quelques semaines
  **Three months and also a few    weeks
    Apres qu'  ca   ma bague est otee
  **After when that my ring  is  taken out
    J'en ai   pour tout' l'  eternite.
  **I    have for  all   the eternity

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 97 - 05:06 AM

I can make out just enough of "LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS" to be very interested. Mom was a French teacher, but I took German and Latin. Sorry, Mom. Can anybody manage a translation for us barbarians?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: rechal
Date: 22 Sep 97 - 08:43 PM

Merci, merci, merci encore.

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: rechal
Date: 22 Sep 97 - 08:36 PM

Merci, merci, merci encore.

Subject: Lyr Add: LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS
From: bigj
Date: 22 Sep 97 - 06:57 PM

LES TROIS HOMMES NOIRS

Le soir des noces apres l'souper
Trois hommes noirs sont arrives
Trois hommes noirs sont arrives
Ont demande la mariee

La mariee n'est pas ici
Venez donc vous y mettre a table
Nous n'voulons ni boire ni manger
Mais nous voulons fort bien danser.

Ils ont pas fait trois pas de danse
Qu'la mariee fut enlevee
Qu'la mariee fut enlevee
Sans que personne put l'empecher

Le lendemain dans son jardin
Le beau galant qui s'y promene
C'qu'il apercoit venir vers lui
Le diable en forme de cavalier

"Oh dis-moi donc mon cher galant
Tes belles noces d'hier au soir"
Mes belles noces d'hier au soir
Ma mariee fut enlevee.

Mets donc ton pied dessus le mien
Je t'y f'rai voir Marie ta mie
Je t'y amenerai je t'y ramenerai
Sans aucun mal je t'y ferai.

Quand il fut rendu aux enfers
Il apercoit Marie sa mie
Marie ma mie suis-je tu la cause
Qu'aujourd'hui-ci tu es ici.

Oh, Non, Oh, Non mon cher galant
Ce n'est pas toi qu'en est la cause
C'est les trois mechants freres qui j'ai
Qu'on fait jurer de pas m'marier

L'anneau d'or que j'ai dans le doigt
Je t'en suplie de m'la laisser
Si tu lui oteras ca du doigt
Je m'en vais y tranchir le cou.

Oh j'en n'avais que pour 3 mois
3 mois et puis quelques semaines
Apres qu'ca ma bague est otee
J'en ai pour tout' l'eternite.

These words come to you courtesy of Mlle Annie Nedellec my friend and local French Consular Agent. However, since she is Breton/French and the song is French/Canadian she's a bit worried, but take it as it comes.

Ah, Joe, you'd be proud of me.

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: bigj
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 07:51 PM

Can't help with the lyrics. sorry; them bein' in French, but the group recorded the song on an LP that appeared on the Decca Emerald label in 1978 (GES 1189) was the serial no. Members were Richard Chapman/ Toby Cinnseallae/ Pierre Guerin/ Cris Macrayallaiy/ Ed Moore & Elliott Sellick

Subject: RE: Barde:
From: rechal
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 07:47 PM

Haven't seen it. I do have one album of theirs on vinyl, though not the one in question.

Subject: RE: Barde:
From:
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 07:13 PM

I have not only heard of them, I saw them at a folk festival in Campbellton NB in the early 1980's. Valdy played too.

Great band, but unfortunately I don't have the lyrics. I don't think I ever did have any of their vinyl, although my friends certainly did. Is any of their older material out in CD?

Subject: Barde:
From: rechal
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 12:17 AM

Hmmm...perhaps Tim Jaques has heard of this group. They're French Canadian. Does anyone know the lyrics to this phenomenonally melancholy song?