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Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne

DigiTrad:
WATERS OF TYNE


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne (25)
Peter Bellamy Waters of Tyne (15)
Correction: Waters of Tyne (13)


GUEST,John in Brisbane 29 Nov 00 - 06:35 AM
Malcolm Douglas 29 Nov 00 - 06:53 AM
Wolfgang 29 Nov 00 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Bruce O. 29 Nov 00 - 06:08 PM
John in Brisbane 29 Nov 00 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,KSlate 30 Nov 02 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 30 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM
Santa 30 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM
Malcolm Douglas 30 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,KSlate 30 Nov 02 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,NSC George Henderson 01 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Dec 02 - 05:18 PM
smallpiper 01 Dec 02 - 08:20 PM
Teribus 02 Dec 02 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,NSC Geordie Henderson 02 Dec 02 - 07:19 AM
Santa 04 Dec 02 - 04:44 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM
TheBigPinkLad 16 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM
DMcG 16 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Van 17 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Van 17 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM
Cattail 26 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM
Santa 27 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM
bridgee 27 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,julia 27 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Ruthie, formerly from Newcastle now in Canad 05 Dec 07 - 12:18 AM
The Villan 05 Dec 07 - 01:03 AM
Colin Randall 05 Dec 07 - 01:12 AM
GUEST,GeordieDave 21 Feb 11 - 06:34 PM
Allan Conn 22 Feb 11 - 07:44 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,North Tyne Born & Bred 10 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant) 10 Nov 13 - 07:21 PM
Wheatman 11 Nov 13 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,north tyne born and bred 20 Apr 14 - 05:22 AM
GUEST 20 Apr 14 - 08:19 AM
BrendanB 20 Apr 14 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 01 Apr 15 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 01 Apr 15 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 02 Apr 15 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Laurence McNaly 21 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 21 Apr 16 - 02:52 PM
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Subject: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:35 AM

With the Forum Search down I'm just trying to establish in anyone has previously posted lyrics or tune for The Water of Tyne. The only provenance I have is that it was published in 'Songs of the Women of Britain' arranged by Elizabeth Poston.

Alternatively please if someone has the URL for the Newcastle Songs site, that would be a great help.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:53 AM

On the DT:  Waters of Tyne,  with tune, taken from revival recording(s).  The song was first published with tune in Bruce and Stokoe's Northumbrian Minstrelsy (1882).

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:54 AM

John,

Newcastle songs (I guess that's the one)

how still to use supersearch (enter there 'Waters of Tyne' for several hits both in the DT and the Forum)

cheers Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:08 PM

"The Water of Tyne" first appeared with music in 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy', 1881, but without music it appeared in Bell's 'Rhymes of the Northern Bards', 1812, 'Universal Songster', III, 1828, Cuthbert Sharp's 'Bishopric Garland', 1834, and probably elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 07:24 PM

Thanks everybody, the collection of links above is just fabulous. I thought it was too good a song not to be in the DT, but had failed to find it in the off-line version - my stupidity.

Many thanks, John


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,KSlate
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 02:53 PM

We are singing this song in choir and I was only curious as to what "hinny" meant. It seems to me that this song is either about a woman who has lost her love to death or has been put on the other side of the Tyne where she cannot swim across. If any one can tell me the answers to my question, my e-mail address is crystalian@stny.rr.com
Thanks


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

One definiton found on-line:

Hinny, pet - Geordie terms of endearment: e.g., friend, dear, darling

"Geordie" covers an area in the North East of England which I won't attempt to define too closely for fear of starting another flame war....!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

"My bonny hinny" would be his/her pretty boy/girlfriend, OK?

The song is simply about two lovers separated by a piece of water - don't know where all this bit about death comes in.

Incidentally, singing hinnies are a kind of fruit cake/pancake, not my wife at the Waterson/Carthy songfest today.

Despite what you may read in song reviews, Jez Lowe is not a geordie, OK?


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

The "death" business would be a misunderstanding of I cannot get to my love if I would dee, I expect. It's a construction that's not all that obvious to people who aren't used to it, and who may not realise that it just means something like I cannot get to my love for the life of me, or I cannot get to my love however hard I try; that sort of thing.

"Hinny" is just a Northern English dialectal form of honey.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,KSlate
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:53 PM

Thank you all very much!


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,NSC George Henderson
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

Malcolm,

Hinny is not a dialect form of honey. It is a term of endearment which, in certain circumstances, can be used male to male or female to female, withotu the necessity of either party being gay. It si hard to describe but, depending on who you are talking about it can mean friend, girlfriend, wife, husband, or even someone you do not know.

George (Geordie) Henderson


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 05:18 PM

That wasn't my personal opinion, but the considered assessment of Chambers' 20th Century Dictionary. That's the only one I have to hand at home, but I doubt if any of the major dictionaries would tell you anything significantly different. 19th century publications containing NE dialect spell the word hinny about half the time, and honey the rest.

Don't allow the fact that honey has acquired a narrower meaning since then to confuse you: hinny is a dialectal form of that word, and like many dialectal forms has retained an older, more general sense. We shouldn't try to re-invent linguistic history in order to make the past conform to the preconceptions of the present.%-)


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: smallpiper
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 08:20 PM

Chambers' 20th Century Dictionary was written by a southern pansy so what would he know I'm with Geordie Henderson on this one.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 05:10 AM

The Geordie word "Hinny" originally meant "Lass" from the Norse word "henne" meaning a "she", simialrly in the borders of Scotland a woman is referred to as "hen", in the north-east of Scotland they refer to a woman as a "Quine" a corruption of the norse word "kvinne".

In dialect both areas of the British Isles have many old norse words still in common usage: "Tau" - a rope; Geordies to this day still say that they are "Gangin' Hjem" when they are going home; both the Scots and the Geordies refer to their children as "bairns".


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,NSC Geordie Henderson
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:19 AM

Thanks for the support smallpiper

And Teribus- Thanks for the explanations. I knew that a lot of Geordie words are found in Norway/Denmark.

It has often been said that a Geordie can make himself understood in Norway.

The Geordie docker once yelled to a Norwegian skipper on a boat leaving the Tyne "Where ye gannin" and the skipper replied "Aa'm gannin yem"

But nivvor mind hinnies, we Knaa we are reet.

Hadaway and enjoy yersels noo.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:44 PM

I would be more convinced that hinney = honey if those in the North-East pronounced Honey that way - but they don't. Or didn't when I was there....not 19th century, I grant you.
Honey = hunney (or something like.)

Surely only Americans call their girlfriends "honey"? I'd have got a sharp dig in the ribs had I tried that out!


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM

I am trying to find some historical information on this song and I can't find where and when it was written. Do any of you have a good website to find this information?


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM

There isn't one. Author is unknown, but it evidently belongs to the North East of England, and apparently first appeared in print in the late 18th century (1793 according to Roy Palmer, but he doesn't say where). The first record of a tune for it that we have is 1882, as mentioned earlier.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM

Jez is from Easington. I suppose you'd have to define "Geordie' to exclude or include him.


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Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

Not that either Malcolm or Chamber's Dictionary generally need much backing up, but the 12 volume Oxford English Dictionary from 1928 says, quite simply "Hinny, hinnie, Sc and north. form of Honey."


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM

Smallpiper,

"Chamber's 20th century dictionery was written by a southern pansy" Since it was published in Edinburgh, and Chambers are an Edinburgh publisher I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

Newcastle - well southern. Best of luck with your pansies.


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Cattail
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM

For information, a record of Tyneside songs by Michael Hunt, has the
sleeve notes "The ferry is believed to be that at Haughton Castle on
the North Tyne.

Cheers.

Cattail


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM

Jez is quite clear himself that he is not a Geordie, or at least that his accent isn't Geordie. At least among those who appreciate the distinction.

I wouldn't care to be too precise about definitions myself, but a Geordie comes from around the city of Newcastle on the north bank of the River Tyne, and the town of Gateshead on the south bank.

Jez comes from the South-west Durham coalfield area, and hence would be a pityacker, in the terminology I'm familiar with. (pit = mine, Yacker = talker).

I was born in Newcastle, and brought up in the SW Durham coalfield. I say I'm a Geordie for the ease of it, living amongst all these Southerners in Lancashire. But am I really? Go figure.


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: bridgee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

The words as written in Allans Tyneside Songs - 1862, don't use HINNY but Honey as it rhymes with money. The song was acreditted to that famous north east writer, unknown.


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

Love this song- have sung it for years
Regarding the use of "hinny" by men to each other, I have heard fishermen here on the Maine coast call each other "sweetheart"....
I think people get the "death" interpretation form the old symbolism of the ferry to the Otherworld
best- Julia


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Ruthie, formerly from Newcastle now in Canad
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:18 AM

I was looking for the words to the song, have a few British folk song books, and a couple of Geordie ones an' all, but no Waters of Tyne! The first link I clicked on had the link to here, and it says there:

[1979:] This exquisite lament was first published in 1793. The tune was taken down almost a century later from an old man at Hexham, Northumberland. (Palmer, Country 143)
The first link is here:
http://www.mysongbook.de/msb/songs/w/watersof.html

By the way, I'd go with the Scandinavian origin for hinny, despite what it says in the dictionary. It's not only the North that has Scandinavian words which beat out the Anglo-Saxon ones, even EGGS is from the Norse, as is, I believe, window, from "wind's eye."
Not to get pedantic however, where does the endearment 'pet' come from. ;-)


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: The Villan
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:03 AM

Where is Folkiedave when you need him. He has probably got some book or other that explains it all.

I like Bob Fox's version of this song.

I also like Judy Dinnings version Judy Dinning - Water Of Tyne It is the third song on the right of the webpage.


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Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Colin Randall
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:12 AM

Sorry to get parochial, but East is East, even in county terms. If TheBigPinkLad is right to say Jez comes from Easington, Santa is a bit out to say he "comes from the South-west Durham coalfield area". As an East Durham lad, he's not a Geordie either. He could be a Mackem if you extend the definition beyond Wearside, using vowel sounds rather than shipyard usage as the deciding factor, but that usually implies support for Sunderland AFC and I recall a delicious line in one of his songs declaring allegiance to Hartlepool.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,GeordieDave
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 06:34 PM

Hinny is most certainly not a deravation of honey. What I have often found happening when it comes to the geordie language, and it is a language however diluted it has become in recent years, is that an academic will offer their views on the subject and it will be takne as gospel. Alternatively it can be written in a book, and we all know they are always accurate!

I am immensley proud of my geordie heritage and my accent is a part of my identity.

Geordie at one time was a language in it's own right, just as cornish was and welsh and gaelic are and it's roots lay with the vikings among others.

Hinny is a term of affection generally between family members, older to younger or husband to wife and as far as my family are aware it has come to mean beloved one.

For those who do not speak the language it would be easy to see a corruption of honey and take it to be exactly that. Just as supposing Hypocrite is derived in some way from Hippocrates as they sound similar and could be easily corrupted.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 07:44 AM

"Hinny is most certainly not a deravation of honey."

I think what folk are maybe missing here is that this song seems to have both words in the lyric and like you say they have different meanings.

This link of Judy Dinning has her sing "Where is my boatman, my bonnie hinny" and she wants the boatman to ferry her over the Tyne "to her honey"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTpBlgDhv6o


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM

Used to sing this song as a bairn in Byker in the choir at Victoria Jubilee Junior School.To us real Geordies (Tynesiders)it is without doubt the sweetest of all folk songs.Everytime I hear it sang or played it still brings a tear to my ee. Where it came from is the heart and that is where it will stay, amongst the friendliest and kindest people on this planet Geordies.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,North Tyne Born & Bred
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM

I have read this debate with interest. As an authoritive source of north east England dialect I refer you to Griffiths, Bill (2005)'A Dictionary of North East Dialect' 2nd edition, Northumbria University Press,Newcastle upon Tyne. With particular reference to 'hinny', please see p.84. Clearly, 'hinny' is a dialect corruption of honey. As one who has lived in the area allegedly referred to in the song, the ferry(long since defunct between Barrasford and Haughton Castle I can confirm that 'hinny' is consistently used as a corruption of the word honey when used as a term of endearment.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM

If you get on a bus in Newcastle at a busy time, it's quite likely that the (normally) macho driver might well say to you 'move reet doon the bus hinny'- this is quite acceptable to any Geordie hairy macho male...however if he said ' move reet doon the bus, honey' as a hairy macho male, I'd be tempted to thump him- the words are not related.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant)
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 07:21 PM

But it says so in the book ...


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: Wheatman
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 04:00 AM

Wolfgang, your link does not work, have we lost this site altogether? I used to use it some tome a go but my system decided to drop the site from my favourites.
My late father in law called every one hinny, male or female but in my family it was always used in the honey sense.
Being born in Chester-le Street I never considered my self to be a Geordie or a Mackem (a Sunderland supporter). My wife considers herself to be a Mackem, she was born in Fencehouses and is a Sunderland supporter.
In the south everyone calls us Geordies because they know no better and we don't argue. My wife an I believe it described a person who was born within the smell of the Tyne. It is refreshing though when a stranger comments "what part of Durham - Sunderland?"
I consider my dialect to be "pitmatic"
Gan Canny
Brian


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,north tyne born and bred
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:22 AM

'hinny' despite posts to the contrary, is a corruption of 'honey' but used in a non-gender specific way. 'Bonny lad' isn't a reference to the recipient's attractiveness. Both are colloquialisms.See my earlier reference to Bill Griffiths' book or visit the Central Library (for those with access to Newcastle on Tyne) where myriad references books are available.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:19 AM

Suppose the main lesson here is that in order to avoid a good
       thumping, be sure to address hairy macho males on Tyneside as 'hinny' rather than 'honey'.
       It was quite acceptable for Joe Wilson, to use 'hinny' in his classic Tyneside song 'Keep Your Feet Still Geordie Hinny' when the person addressed was certainly not female!


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: BrendanB
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 10:15 AM

The chorus to 'Captain Bover' runs, 'Where hast tha been ma bonny hinny, where hast tha been ma bonny man'. Hinny is a dialect word and not gender specific.
I used to work with a Geordie who frequently called me 'bonny lad'. Not really relevant but I liked it. Geordie is a lovely dialect. I imagine that every choir in the North East has Water of Tyne in its repertoire, ours certainly has.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 15 - 11:08 AM

I see MacColl/Seeger seem to have recorded it as "Waters Of Thyme".


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 01 Apr 15 - 11:10 AM

Although the title of both track and album are down as Thyme on listening to it I'm not sure if Peggy is singing Tyne after all.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Apr 15 - 10:22 AM

Ian Dunsmuir and Marilyn Framrose runa session at Barrasford on the North Tyne & am sure they told me last time I was there that the ferry over the river was very near there- will check it when I see them again soon- it is a cracking song, but a bit short!


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Laurence McNaly
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 07:20 AM

Could it also be based on the ferry at Wark on the North Tyne. There's a cottage there known as the ferryman's cottage.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Waters of Tyne? / Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 02:52 PM

Ar man hadaway- ye can caal a lad OR a lass hinny but NO WAY can ye caal a Geordie fella 'honey'- it's OK for the laases but....

Whatever the derivation, I would offer this as sound advice to any visitor to the Newcastle area- could save you a visit to the Royal Victoria Infirmary.


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