 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute!
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Midchuck Date: 30 Dec 00 - 01:15 PM He said "Nazi!" He said "Nazi!" GET HIM! P. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Dec 00 - 01:34 PM Yes, I can see how the NRA might be scared of all kinds of things and full of hate as a result, and try to make use of fear as a way of bringing in the membership fees.
But how come that works? I'd have thought the NRA would scare the socks off most sensible gun-owners, and would end up as a hate object; cf Hell's Angels.
Is there a NASG around that's been kept out of the papers? A National Association for Sane Gun-owners? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: harpgirl Date: 30 Dec 00 - 02:47 PM ...I'll wager that lady who got an eight year sentence for fatally shooting that other lady in the face over driving practices in, where was it? Alabama, was considered to be a sane gun owner. I see no reason for any citizen to carry a hand gun or other firearm off their own property. I think that only currently working peace officers should be allowed to carry guns among the general public!!!!! hg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 30 Dec 00 - 04:02 PM The only reason I can think of is the fact that so many other nuts are doing it. As far as I'm concerned, it is only to level the playing field. Besides, some people think the constitution gives then the right. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: harpgirl Date: 30 Dec 00 - 04:16 PM ...precisely my point, dear one..."all the other nuts are doing it" is the reasoned argument I usually get in rebuttal!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,juju Cobra Date: 30 Dec 00 - 04:52 PM Wow, why all the hate? Why would you want to send policemen to shoot me harpgirl? And Kendell, the Constitution doesn't give anyone "rights" it protects our unalienable rights that we were born with. Please think twice before calling in the Stazi. There are other ways to deal with problems than resorting to violence. Look at the failure of the "war" on drugs, for example. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Dec 00 - 04:57 PM So what do sane gun-owners do if they want to have their voices heard in support of sane gun-policies (while keeping their guns)? Conservative gun-owners for example, who by definition surely can't approve of extremists like the NRA and so forth... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: harpgirl Date: 30 Dec 00 - 05:14 PM ...I wouldn't want to send a policemen to shoot you, darlin!!I don't hate anyone! Just stating my tired old opinion...heck, I'd disarm the peacekeepers as well, if I could! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Uncle Jaque Date: 30 Dec 00 - 06:00 PM 'Bout time, MAV! For those of you who consider the NRA a den of malevolent lunatics to be feared much more than the Islamic Jihadd, perhaps you overlooked some of the educational and public service programs provided by the NRA. Like the "Eddie Eagle" firearms safety course and associated materials provided at no charge to any school requesting it. I'ts main theme is to teach kids who encounter any firearm to "Stop; don't touch it; leave the area immediately and tell an adult". Of course, thanks to Liberal Teacher's Unions and Government School Administrators, this dosn't happen often - except in certain Religious and Private Schools where education seems to have a higher priority than political agendas and indoctrination. (Oh no? Compare SAT scores whydoncha?) And thanks to the Liberal Press, unless you belong to the NRA, you probably never even heard of it. Sort of like all those Pro-Life rallys in Washington, which in some cases I'm told outnumbered the "Million Mom March" considerably; if you wern't there, they didn't happen. "Trigger Locks"? Not a bad idea in some instances - like locking up your vehicle or securing toxic medicines and materials away from children. I think we used to call that "common sense" back in NH. When BigBro decides to force all of us serfs to use them whatever the situation, however, it is a problem to some of us - and the NRA isn't falling for this political scam. Apparantly our initial speculations that such laws would only give criminals another advantage over their victims has been confirmed by more than one (at last count) homeowner having been killed or neutralized by an intruder while fumbling in the dark attempting in vain to unlock their weapon. It seems that predators are not nearly as compliant with these laws as are their law-abiding vicims. Imagine that! How come manditory helmet laws for motorcycle riders were such a horrendous abridgement of personal rights and freedom... but manditory "trigger locks" are a wonderful thing? Have you ever heard of "Operation Exile"? Probably not. It's the legislative initiative of the NRA to encourage the extended incarceration of repeat violent offenders and carreer, predatory vermin who habitually rape, murder, maim and terrorize people. The same crowd which "PC" Judges and Lawyers seem to delight in turning loose on us after minimal stays in country-club (relative to where many of them come from, anyway) "rehabilitation programs". In places where it has been applied, it seems to be working as evidenced by crime rate reductions - but I don't suppose you're going to see that on the 6:00 News either. How many know that Mr. Heston marched with Dr. Martin Luther King for equal rights back in the 60's? Have you read his speech to last year's graduating class at Harvard? (I have a transcript on file). You seem to think that you know this man.. at least enough to judge and condemn him. Do you really, or are you just parrotting the sentiments fed you by those you accept as your authority figures? I find that a little hard to buy given this bunch of independant and critical thinkers.. but in a couple of cases here, I'm frankly beginning to wonder. For those with the courage of conviction to take a peek over No-Man's Land towards the other side, feel free to check out http://www.nra.org/ and see if you discover anything there which Komrade Dan Ratherski may not want you to know. The NRA may not perfect by any means, but they do honor and protect things like the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the principals which have made this Country fairly distinguishable from the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. And for that we are accused of representing what the NRA essentially stands resoloutly against. And Bush "stole" the election.. O sure; whatever. As to those "Assault" weapons (another Liberal excersize in creative redefinition, akin to "saturday night special" and "pro-choice"); When the Framers wrote the Constitution, arming the working class was NOT about hunting or target shooting. It wasn't even all that much about keeping the bandits away from the door. It was to provide a certain disincentive to an overpowered Government from turning on it's Citizens and enslaving them, as history indicates a powerful predisposition for them to do (they were well read and knew that). There is a reason why slaves are generally kept ignorant and unarmed. Historical precident also indicates that whenever a government succeeds in disarming the workers, weather by force or deception, tyranny is seldom far behind. The weapons Citizens had the right to bear in young America were flintlock Brown Besses, Charlevilles, longrifles, horse-pistols, swords, and even bayonettes! (One of the distinguishing criterion for an "Assault Weapon" is a bayonette lug, by the way. These rampant drive-by bayonettings have just got to stop!). These were the "cutting edge" of military weapons technology at the time. Other than British aristocracy, not many fellows used swords for hunting, and the big Infantry muskets were generally too awkward and heavy to be well suited to hunting. True, a motley Militia was hardly a match for a trained, disciplined army; but it was known then as it had better be known today that sufficient oppression has a way of turning some folks who have tasted freedom at least once in their lives kinda fiesty. And an enraged, highly motivated, and ARMED rabble can be a real pain in the butt to any Tyrant! Just ask King George. Or the Rooskies after about 3 years of Afganistan. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Ebbie Date: 30 Dec 00 - 06:36 PM Uncle Jaque- I agree. I'm aware how easy it is to misunderstand - the KKK also were/are a group of civic-minded grandfatherly types who do a lot of good in their community. Phhhhhttttt... Get real. Ebbie Now I'm outa here. You guys are disgusting. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,Stackley Date: 30 Dec 00 - 07:55 PM I'm breathless with anticipation- just what's most needed. A whole horse troop of Jaqueasses (or is it a Jaquetroop of horses arses?)with verbal diarrhea. Cheers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,Pistol packin' mama Date: 30 Dec 00 - 08:24 PM Dave the Ancient Mariner said "I have begun to feel very intimidated and unwelcome on this forum... Perhaps you might all lighten up a bit please?" I do consider that the previous two posts are the ones that create that kind of feeling (Ebbie and Stackley). I like reading Uncle Jacques posts (I'm in agreement with him largely) as well as opposing sides, but heck! Does it have to degenerate into name calling? I carry a concealed weapon and am licensed to do so. No one ever sees it and I've not needed it. I hope I never do. But I stand for my right to do so. Pistola |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 30 Dec 00 - 08:30 PM That statement about the "Right to bear arms" was tongue in cheek deah...our right actually comes from a gutless congress and a strong gun lobby....a well regulated militia.. Tell ya what harpgirl..if someone comes up with a way to eliminate ALL guns..they can have mine too. Until then.."they will have to pry it from my cold dead fingers"!( Moses) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Ribbit Date: 30 Dec 00 - 09:22 PM "An enraged, highly motivated, and ARMED rabble can be a real pain in the butt to any Tyrant!" They can also be terrifying to any other group that they decide doesn't belong or agree with them. You state that one person was overcome while trying to unlock his pistol. How many children are killed every year handling guns that, had been locked, would have been unable to be discharged. The state of Maine, as you probably know Jacque, currently has a program where gun owners may obtain free gun locks in order to prevent such tragedies. Nothing mandatory just an attempt to prevent such needless tradgedies. It must be really horrible to live in such fear, to feel so constantly threatened, that one feels the necessity to carry weapons. When does the craziness stop? Do we start giving everyone in the country a gun as soon as they turn 18? I don't consider myself a commie or a red as you seem to think those disagree with are but maybe you and Tail Gunner Joe could have had youself some wild ol' times. Thom |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 00 - 09:41 PM Hi Uncle Jaque, I've only read your initial post on this thread. I may read more later. I just want to say that if you find yourself to be the recipient of flames, you might want to consider the possibility that it is because you sometimes behave like a Troll (not troll). Trolls attract flames. That's what they do. If you don't want to attract flames, don't Troll for them. And please don't turn the Mudcat into a war zone. Some of us would not be happy if you did that. We want to like you, we really do. Carol |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: CarolC Date: 30 Dec 00 - 09:47 PM Ok, I've read a couple more posts. Dave (the ancient mariner), I hope you know that you are one of the shining lights of reason, sanity, kindness, and compassion in this forum. I hope you never decide to go away. Carol |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 30 Dec 00 - 10:01 PM The NRA trained firearms instructor, ex Yugoslav Olympic pistol champion, and retired Doctor of music, who trained my wife and I in competition pistol shooting here in Canada, do not like being refered to as pistol packin Nazi's and rednecks. Neither do I, and the fireman, retired nurse and psychiatrist, who I share a range with periodically hardly qualify either. Perhaps you can understand how actual members of the NRA are getting a real bad rap from Media and Liberals. WE promote safety and reasonable laws. Thank You for your kind remarks Carol. Yours, Aye. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 30 Dec 00 - 10:32 PM I have met Jaque, and, even though he is conservative, he is still ok in my book I like energetic exchanges, but, I dont like personal attacks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 30 Dec 00 - 11:54 PM < Don't look at us, they were also democRATS. George Wallace (d) Well known racist Fritz Hollings (d) put up Confederate flag in NC Robert Byrd (d) Grand Imperial Wizard of the Senate Boss Hogg (d) Just kidding. mav8 out |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Uncle Jaque Date: 31 Dec 00 - 12:40 AM Dave and PPM: Thanks for your kind words of affirmation; It's good to know that I'm not the only one in here with similar perceptions and concerns. I think that by now even the casual observer to this thread can pretty well determine where the tactics of "personal destruction", flaming, and insults are coming from, and who their intended targets are. This was fully expected, and is totally consistant with past experience on this and other forums - both on and outside of the internet! On the other hand, those who choose to excersize a modicum of intellectual discipline, critical analysis, and civil dialouge have had an opportunity to demonstrate our strategy of choice as well. I'm glad to say that I've seen some of this from both sides of the issue. I have tried to avoid personal "attacks", juvenile name-calling, etc., although I know how to push some buttons, don't I? Surely I have ruffled some feathers here, but my primary objective here isn't, as some conjecture, to spread seeds of discord, hatred and discontent... it is rather(I don't keep secrets very well, do I?) to stimulate folks of whatever opinion or persuasion to THINK! Yeah, OK, myself included. How's it working? Well, it does seem that there are some who would rather "hate" than think, here, for some reason. But ye know what, tender spirits?: They are NOT the NRA; they are NOT George W. BUSH supporters, near as I can tell; and they would probably NOT present themselves as "Conservatives", in OR out of the PC closet! Evidence? Behold; it is before thee. Kendall; I have trusted in your wisdom in that you would not, no matter how much I ruffle your political feathers, take any of this personally; I get the sense that my trust was well invested. Although I've only had limited exposure to ye, it has sufficed to engender considerable respect and esteem. I can't help but like an old Salt with such a sense of humor and a fine hand with a 6-sting. If it's any consolation, my Mom was, I'm told, a registered Socialist in her younger days and as long as she had her senses belonged to HCI, ACLU, "Freedom From Religion", and was an active supporter of whatever Democrat happened to be running at the time. Even in advanced stages of clinical dementia, she makes a horrid face at the mere mention of Rush Limbaugh's name. We still get along just fine! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Uncle Jaque Date: 31 Dec 00 - 01:28 AM This Just in from a local NRA Instructor, and fits in perfectly with an earlier posting about Community Service activities of the NRA - FYI: PINE TREE STATE RIFLE & PISTOL ASSOCIATION INC PO Box 373 Yarmouth ME 04096 PRESS RELEASE December 30th, 2000 FROM: Jeff Weinstein, President, TEL 846-3000 FAX 846-0900 E-Mail: PTSR&PA@FirearmSafety.net STATEWIDE NRA AFFILIATE CRITICIZES MCAHV GUN TRIGGER LOCK PROGRAM AS "SUPERFICIAL" While commending Maine Citizens Against Handgun Violence (MCAHV) for funding the distribution of trigger locks to gun owners, Jeff Weinstein, President of the Pine Tree State Rifle & Pistol Association and an NRA spokesman, is quick to point out that trigger locks are only one element of a properly devised personal gun safety program. By themselves, trigger locks are of limited value. "Education is more important than any mechanical device", said Weinstein. "For many decades, the NRA has successfully conducted gun safety courses for millions of Americans of all ages. Trigger locks, in appropriate circumstances, have been and continue to be highly recommended as part of an overall home firearms safety strategy, especially with young children present", he added. "But thinking that simply distributing trigger locks will have a major impact on gun accidents is quite naïve", he added. For many years, the NRA has had two gun safety courses that have proven to be extraordinarily useful in the promotion of gun accident prevention. One is the thorough 4-hour "NRA Home Firearm Safety" course, which is an excellent program for the entire family. The second is the nationally-acclaimed "Eddie Eagle" program, which is a fast-paced presentation geared towards youngsters from pre-school through the sixth grade. The NRA provides "Eddie Eagle" materials upon request to schools, law enforcement, civic groups, and individuals. "I caution Mainers against developing a false sense of security simply because they've installed a trigger lock on their gun", said Weinstein. "For any family's gun safety strategy to work effectively, education must be employed as the key ingredient. Trigger locks are not failsafe and are no substitute for adequate training in the safe handling and storage of firearms." For more information about the many NRA firearms safety courses and their availability in Maine for people of all ages, call the voicemail number 846-3000, or visit the WEBSite www.firearmsafety,net.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: CarolC Date: 31 Dec 00 - 06:12 AM Uncle Jaque, flame wars don't just happen between liberals and conservatives. They happen between people who play traditional music and singer/songwriters. Between people from different sides of the situation in Northern Ireland. Between people who think the Mudcat should just be about music and those who think it should be about whatever we want it to be. The one element each of these scenarios has in common is the desire on the part of a few people to get other people stirred up. You don't "stimulate people to think" by backing them into a corner. I guarantee it. Please think carefully about what you are doing. Carol |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: RedCelt Date: 31 Dec 00 - 06:30 AM Just one more Gun question to chew on from a red meat eating, ccw licensed, firearm packing, proud veteran, former PI/SO liberal pagan democrat... (you oughta hear me argue with myself sometimes...) The strongest argument against "reasonable limit" gun control has always been the "give 'em an inch and they'll take ALLLL the guns" fear. If you look far enough to the left, this fear isn't totally unreasonable. This has been a stated aim of a few groups and people. At the same time, I don't need to own military grade weapons to defend hearth and home, or to chase that ever elusive Bambi. With the loud trumpets blazing from left and right in stereo, can a "reasonable limit" ever be found, and if so where will it lie? Praying for snow in Texas for the new year.... Jeff |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: John P Date: 31 Dec 00 - 07:25 AM Uncle Jaque, I appreciate the fact that the NRA is teaching gun safety courses. Wouldn't it be nice if they were also in favor of a requirement that passing such a course be necessary for gun ownership? If the NRA is really all about gun safety, why aren't they pushing for mandatory safety training, with licensing of those who are properly trained? Do you really think that the fact that lots of people walk around with guns in their pockets is the only thing separating us from being like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union? Do you realize that we have lots of other, more real protections? You have made a lot of noise about not wanting to engage in flames and invective, but then you do things like refer to a highly respected journalist as Dan Ratherski, refer to the government of the United States as a tyranny and as BigBro, and to the citizens of the United States serfs. I am minded of the comment that was made earlier in this thread about there not being much difference between the far right and the far left; you sound as silly as the SDS did back in the 60s, and in much the same ways. You even use many of the same words. I'm sorry -- calling you silly probably sounds like a personal attack, and that wasn't my intention. It's just that you are espousing such an extreme line, in such extreme language (you even said "Rooskies"!!), that it is hard not to laugh at you. Come in from the cold, man. Most of us are living perfectly happy lives without having to get past the level of fear and distrust that you seem to be feeling. I'm still interested in how you (and troll) can fail to see the strangeness of referring to someone who keeps guns as being pro-life. It seems to me that gun ownership implies a willingness to use a gun, which implies a willingness to kill someone, which implies that calling yourself pro-life is inaccurate. I have no problem with someone being anti-abortion and pro-gun. I just have a problem with them describing themselves as pro-life. Just to clarify for myself your level of conservative, keep-government-out-of-our-lives fervor, how do you feel about gay rights, specifically gay marraige? John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:23 AM "How come manditory helmet laws for motorcycle riders were such a horrendous abridgement of personal rights and freedom... but manditory "trigger locks" are a wonderful thing?"
And of course the Hell's Angels were against that. Anybody who rides motor bike without a helmet is crazy. Like anyone who rides a car without set-belts. Or anyone who drives after drinking more than a very moderate amount. And I believe the Hell's Angels are great at fixing bikes, and they've been involved in lots of good stuff at various times, raising mney for charuity and so forth.
But in spite of that, I believe they are considered a little bit extreme by moderately minded people (and if your aren't moderately minded, the word "conservative" is hardly appropriate). Is there really no moderate gun-owners association that campaigns in favour of gun-licensing and training requirements and safety devices and so forth and is supported by sensible who don't like extremism?
We'ver got into a gun-law diversion here, but it's really still in keeping with the initial drift of the thread - which is what appears to be a contrast between people calling themselves "conservative" but espousing a type of right wing radicalism which is antipathetic to the essential chatacteristic of conservatism, which is to resist unnesessary change.
As has been pointed, a reactionary is not the same thing as a conservative. There are times when it may be a good thing to try to move society back to the way things used to be. But someone who seeks to do that has by definition ceased to be a conservative, and should avoid using the expression. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: katlaughing Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:25 AM Just a few statistics from the website of Frontline:
Rank of the Lorcin 380 in the ATF's top ten most-traced firearms: 1
Number of firearms produced by US manufacturers every minute: 8
Average number of firearm thefts that occur every year in the US: 341,000
Number of guns federal firearms licensees have reported as lost, stolen or missing since Sept. 13, 1994 when the Clinton Crime Bill made reporting a requirement: 23,775
Percentage of Americans who agree that "companies that manufacture guns with no hunting or sporting purpose should be held financially responsible when these guns injure or kill people": 45
Percentage of Americans who feel that "the laws covering the sale of firearms should be made more strict": 62
Number of federal safety standards that apply to the manufacture of teddy bears: 4
Number of firearms in the US: 223 Million
Percentage of L.A. High School students who say they could obtain a gun for less than $50: 25
Percentage of arrestees who say it is easy to get a gun illegally: 55
Percentage of all Saturday Night Specials produced by the "Ring of Fire" companies: 80
Number of murders committed in 1995 in the US: 20,043
Projected year when deaths from gunfire will surpass death from auto accidents: 2001
Year that the NRA supported a SNS importation ban and called the guns "miserably-made, potentially defective arms that contribute so much to rising violence" : 1968
Cost of firearms assault injuries per fatal gunshot wound: $21,700
Cost of a Lorcin .22 handgun at a Pasadena California sporting goods store: $40
Number of people killed by firearms every hour in America: 4
Number of crime victims that were shot in 1994: 32,162
Number of violent crimes reported to police that were committed with firearms in 1994: 544,880
Percent increase in juveniles arrested for weapons violations from '85-'94 : 113
Number of violent crime victimizations committed with a firearm in 1993: 1.3 million Jacques, recently I had really enjoyed a few of your postings; they were thoughtful and well-put. I even agreed with some of what you'd said, but this one is a bunch of crap. You came on like a thug with a big threat, hoping to make us shake in our Birks and it didn't happen. We, none of us, liberal or conservative or in between will countenance some bunch of assholes coming in here and stirring things up with the kind of vitriolic, I- know-better-than-you, presumptious rhetoric you've used. Carol C put it very well, think very carefully what you are doing. Mudcat does not need this kind of crap put forth in order to have a THOUGHT-PROVOKING thread. Your claims of only wanting to get people to think. etc., are specious when coupled with your threats of a takeover. Backoff and enjoy the Mudcat for what it is. I would suggest you do some research by reading this thread. You will see from it that there is no need for the fear you exhibit on the Mudcat by first posting your stance, then threatening us with your friends, as if we are going to gang up and beat you up! I would also urge you and everyone else to go to Michael Moore's website for the Awful Truth and watch a clip of him interviewing "Eddie Eagle"; he shows the program for the surreal absurdity it is. And, lest you make any more assumptions: I have an old single-shot .22 rifle in my house and was raised shooting all types of guns AND have always been a liberal Democrat. kat
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 31 Dec 00 - 08:38 AM If the NRA really is in favor of trigger locks, even on a superficial level, then why did they target that Michigan congressman for supporting that? Why have they started a boycott of Smith & Wesson? Mr Weinsteins comment sounds like deflection to me. Of course education is important..but, this is not an either/or situation. To address another comment..owning a gun does NOT imply that the owner would shoot someone. In my case, it would depend on the situation...I could never shoot someone for stealing my property, but, if they were an immediate threat to my life, you damn well right I would, and that right predates the second amendment! My problem with the NRA (and I am a past member) is that they seem to be against ALL attempts at gun control. I dont know about other states, but, in Maine, the overwhelming majority of homicids were committed by people who knew the victim. There was no forced entry by strangers, and, if they had used a trigger lock, that might not have happened. There were 11 homicides in Maine this year..there are a bit over one million people living here..I'm not good at math, can someone figure the odds that someone I dont know is going to do me in? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: jets Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:19 AM Your safe with me Kendall and I know you quite well. But as far as defense,you are on your own. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: harpgirl Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:50 AM ...please take your trigger locks with you tonight folks. I worry about all you armed revelers! I will be gunless, playing my harp in a hotel, sober, hanging out with my son awaiting the Citrus Bowl in Orlando. I hope I don't piss off anyone packing heat! Good luck all! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST Date: 31 Dec 00 - 01:50 PM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: SINSULL Date: 31 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM Abby, you have a God given right to your opinion, and, I will defend it (unless I am obligated to shoot someone) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: juju Cobra Date: 31 Dec 00 - 02:02 PM << |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,pistol packin' mama Date: 31 Dec 00 - 02:06 PM Kat, you forgot the statistics on how many people have sucessfully defended themselves in their homes with firearms. It is significant. My apologies for not having them handy. Perhaps later... Harpgirl, I won't shoot you as long as you don't threaten my life or my children's lives. That's how it works with me. I was reading about why buy back programs are thought not to work: It seems the majority of people who turn in guns for buy back are demographically not the people who do the crimes. Also, some gun toters turn in guns for buy back so they can take the money to buy a better gun. Lots of loopholes there. We don't use trigger locks. We use lock boxes in our house. There's no way anyone who is not supposed to touch one of my handguns will be able to get a hold of one. Gee, I wonder why they NEVER cover the target shooting event in the Olympics. Looks like a definite prejudice there. Any other events not covered? Pistol packin' mama |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: juju Cobra Date: 31 Dec 00 - 02:10 PM oops, no copy and paste here. My post was directed at Ebbie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 31 Dec 00 - 05:48 PM The number of people who have successfully defended themselves against burgars is tiny compared to the accidental shootings. And, I say again..lets be civil. When you attack someones belief, the response is totally predictable. I vote to kill this thread, it is getting too nasty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 00 - 07:43 PM Still seems mostly polite enopugh. juju's was the only post that got within spitting distance of anyone, though I've no idea who, since it was a but gnomic.
But it is going round in circles rather. There seems to be a tendency to blaze away in the direction of the enemy in a rather random fashion, rather than addressing and teasing out points of disagreement and agreement, which seems to me a much more constructive way of going about thinggs. More fun too, I think.
And noone's come up with any songs recently either. Oddly enough, I've just looked at the DT keywords list, and "gun" isn't among them.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 01 Jan 01 - 01:36 AM John;
<
Do the words "shall not be infringed" have any meaning to you?
<
Uh...yes.
<
Just barely, the Constitution is under constant attack. That is why conservatives are frequently alarmist having seen the liberals trash it on a regular basis.
<
Comrade Dan is rather obvious in his bias and deserves ridicule. I haven't respected him since he insulted then President Bush on camera and his constant clinton/algor rumpswabbery. Judging by his plummeting ratings, neither do millions of Americans.
<
What do you call it when part of your wealth is confiscated at the point of a gun? (the answer is theft) as well as armed home invasions and flagrant violations of private property rights
<
Well, since most WORKING people lose about 45% of their net to all forms of taxation which requires many couples to both work hence denying them the LUXURY of parenting, I'd say he's fairly accurate in that choice of words.
We pay about 700% more in taxes than did our parents.
<
Jaque spent some time freezing while facing down the communist North Koreans during the "cold" war. Keep going laughing boy.
<
This is so convoluted I don't quite know how to respond to it, but that's never stopped me before.
Good guys can own guns, this does not turn them into murderers. This concept didn't used to need explaining (it's often referred to as moral equivalence).
You have the right to defend yourself (shoot back). The fastest growing group of gun owners is single women(perhaps they don't want to get raped or wish to protect their children since cops can't and there is no dad)
Many of those who believe in defense of themselves and their children may also extend the belief of "Right to Life" (see Declaration of Independence) to innocent unborn children.
I'm sure that if a bad guy (or a bad fetus for that matter) was to pull a gun on one of these people, it would be a very solemn situation.
I haven't heard of an unborn packing heat yet so this may explain YOUR paradox for you.
<
Well, you weren't exactly asking me, but while I'm at it, Gays have the same rights as anyone else, I believe in equal and individual rights.
Since marriage is the union between a man and a woman I'd have to say that a gay man has every bit as much of a right as the next guy to marry a woman.
mav8 out
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Amergin Date: 01 Jan 01 - 01:47 AM Personally, I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy, but and that is a big huge but, this country needs those taxes.....our taxes are nothing to many countries out there, but then they also have better social programs, ones that we desperately need.....where would all those people be if there were not enough taxes to pay for their welfare or foodstamps? What about social security? Or socialised health care? I'm applying for socialised health care, because I need it. Where would I be if I didn't have that option? How else would I get the meds that I need to survive? Well? This socialist wants to know.... Amergin |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Uncle Jaque Date: 01 Jan 01 - 01:50 AM Kat/kl.: You sure have done your homework; I'm impressed. And thanks for the link to the previous thread on the "Gun" topic; if anyone wants to go on with this that's probably the place to do it. I think about anything I might have to say furthur, at least subjectively, on the topic was pretty well covered by contributors there. I can't say that all the fire and brimstone generated was particularly worth what little edification might have come out of it, as it seems is the case here - conceding a point to Kendall. It did seem a little more "balanced" then... and I havn't seen those who posted to the "Libertarian" side of the issue then around the Mudcat since. I think I'm starting to get the hint. My initial intent here was to try to encourage 'Catters like Dave who have shared my sense of being occasionally subjected to ideological bullying (and it's not just limited to the "BS" threads where we know we enter at our own risk) and general minority - group status that there might be an option of some idological self-defense at hand. And this is, obviously, seen as an "attack" or attempted coup of some sort by the controlling majority. By the way, Kat/KL; if you ever get me figured out, I'm sure my Wife would like to know how you did it. She's still working on that after over 28 years now. I've gotta give her credit; I think she has me about 48% domesticated. Somehow I get the impression that you might want to send her a sympathy card - and I can't deny but what she might deserve one. John P.: I had, again at my own peril, brushed on the abortion topic - and someone else hit it head-on in that thread from May '99 that Kat/Kl linked to. Thanks for the invitation to address that issue and those of "Gay" "Rights" and Marriage; you are absolutely correct in assuming that I have strong sentiments on those issues, but I seem to have gotten myself sufficiently dipped in enough boiling lard this time around to scald the fleas off o'me redneck hide; if you'll be so kind as to allow me a few moons to cultivate another herd, perhaps I'll be back for another treatment then. No doubt you will have the apparatus ready. As far as I know, Dan Rather is not a member of Mudcat - so he seemed like fair game to me. "Highly respected"? Speak for yourself on that one. Say, by the way; how are his ratings lately? OK, OK,... I'll lighten up on him, and Jennings, and Brokaw... as soon as you lighten up on Limbaugh! American "Serfs" ? Oh sure; like those of us who, unlike Rosie O'Donnell, cannot afford armed goons to keep an eye on her kids for her while she squalls like a banshee for the disarmament of lesser Americans. Or those of us who cannot afford to send our children to competent private schools without non-PC and verbooten vouchers - like Clinton, and Gore, and most Politicians can - while depriving us of that option. Certainly. You seem to take umberage at my use of the term "Rooshkies" for representatives of the former USSR. Ye gads, but some of you folks shure offend easily! Would it be possible to lighten up just a little, here? I just forgot how to spell "Rushinnz"! Sheeesh! And please, don't ever feel inhibited when it comes to laughing at me; chances are you'll be laughing WITH me, as I frequently laugh at myself. particularly when playing (attempting to play) the euphonium. Have you ever tried to play a euphonium and laugh hystericly at the same time? It ain't easy, I'll tell ye! Besides, with the ease with which you seem to get offended, a little laughter could be mighty therapeautic! Harpgirl: I think you should be pretty safe with the harp, Deah: haul out a set of Great Highland Pipes, however, and I'm a'feared that yer on yer awn, Lass! So point well taken; let's get back to music. But if anyone, from whichever side of the ideological tracks, wants to take a political "shot", can we have the civility to take it out back to the "BS alley" on a seprate thread and thrash it out there? ** "Phhht-pt-phhhxt-pzt-pffffffffxt!" (Virtual Retro-Bugle call sounding "Retreat"....*** |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 01 Jan 01 - 02:07 AM John; "If the NRA is really all about gun safety, why aren't they pushing for mandatory safety training, with licensing of those who are properly trained?" Do the words "shall not be infringed" have any meaning to you? (second amendment) "Do you really think that the fact that lots of people walk around with guns in their pockets is the only thing separating us from being like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union? " Uh...yes. "Do you realize that we have lots of other, more real protections?" Just barely, the Constitution is under constant attack. That is why conservatives are frequently alarmist having seen the liberals trash it on a regular basis. "but then you do things like refer to a highly respected journalist as Dan Ratherski" Comrade Dan is rather obvious in his bias and deserves ridicule. I haven't respected him since he insulted then President Bush on camera and his constant clinton/algor rumpswabbery. Judging by his plummeting ratings, neither do millions of Americans. "refer to the government of the United States as a tyranny and as BigBro" What do you call it when part of your wealth is confiscated at the point of a gun? (the answer is theft) as well as armed home invasions and flagrant violations of private property rights Well, since most WORKING people lose about 45% of their net to all forms of taxation which requires many couples to both work hence denying them the LUXURY of parenting, I'd say he's fairly accurate in that choice of words. We pay about 700% more in taxes than did our parents. "It's just that you are espousing such an extreme line, in such extreme language (you even said "Rooskies"!!), that it is hard not to laugh at you. Come in from the cold, man" Jaque spent some time freezing while facing down the communist North Koreans during the "cold" war. Keep going laughing boy. "Most of us are living perfectly happy lives without having to get past the level of fear and distrust that you seem to be feeling" We think most of you are not paying attention, we just came very close to total destruction of the country. The military would have left in droves under algor. Consumer confidence would have continued to drop precipitously as the clinton/algor regime resumed its attack on business. "I'm still interested in how you (and troll) can fail to see the strangeness of referring to someone who keeps guns as being pro-life. It seems to me that gun ownership implies a willingness to use a gun, which implies a willingness to kill someone, which implies that calling yourself pro-life is inaccurate. I have no problem with someone being anti-abortion and pro-gun. I just have a problem with them describing themselves as pro-life." This is so convoluted I don't quite know how to respond to it, but that's never stopped me before. Good guys can own guns, this does not turn them into murderers. This concept didn't used to need explaining (it's often referred to as moral equivalence). You have the right to defend yourself (shoot back). The fastest growing group of gun owners is single women(perhaps they don't want to get raped or wish to protect their children since cops can't and there is no dad) Many of those who believe in defense of themselves and their children may also extend the belief of "Right to Life" (see Declaration of Independence) to innocent unborn children. I'm sure that if a bad guy (or a bad fetus for that matter) was to pull a gun on one of these people, it would be a very solemn situation. I haven't heard of an unborn packing heat yet so this may explain YOUR paradox for you. "Just to clarify for myself your level of conservative, keep-government-out-of-our-lives fervor, how do you feel about gay rights, specifically gay marraige?" Well, you weren't exactly asking me, but while I'm at it, Gays have the same rights as anyone else, I believe in equal and individual rights. Since marriage is the union between a man and a woman I'd have to say that a gay man has every bit as much of a right as the next guy to marry a woman. mav8 out
PS Sorry about the double post, I guess you can't use
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Penny S. Date: 01 Jan 01 - 06:18 AM Kevin missed this one. Penny |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jan 01 - 06:24 AM Americans must thank God they didn't have motor cars around back in the 18th century, or presumably they'd have been lumbered with a bit in the constitution about a right to drive that couldn't be infringed - and there'd be no way of having required driving tests, or laws against drunk drivers, or speed limits...
And there are people who actually believe those kinds of things when it comes to cars. The difference is they are seen as being a litle bit off their heads.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: kendall Date: 01 Jan 01 - 09:28 AM In my opinion, all this talk of rights is just so much blather..what it boils down to is simply this..WHAT WE WANT, IS WHAT'S RIGHT. Being human, we would rather see a few strangers gunned down in a school yard than to allow any control over our gun ownership. We would rather see an intellectual lightweight in the White House than to insure that ALL voters were allowed to exercise their right to vote. What we want is more important than what is right and just. Flame away..I welcome it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: InOBU Date: 01 Jan 01 - 10:00 AM Kendall: Go to the head of the class for Supreme Court analisis 101. Larry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Midchuck Date: 01 Jan 01 - 10:01 AM Could we arrange for those who believe that: "Private citizens shouldn't own or possess guns under any circumstances, because we don't need them because we can trust our police and military to take total care of us, and Bambi would rather starve to death slowly when he gets too old to browse, or be chased down and disemboweled and eaten before he's quite dead, by a pack of coyotes, than be taken out instantly and painlessly by a well-aimed high-caliber bullet." and those who believe that: "Every American has the absolute right under the Constitution to own all the weapons he/she wants, without regard to his/her training in using them, and in the legalities of their use; his/her emotional stability or criminal record; or the potential of the weapon in question to take out everyone in the vicinity along with the intended target; and any suggestion that possession of weapons should be subject to training and licensing requirements equivalant to those imposed for driving a vehicle on the public highway is an evil Bolshevik." go away? Then maybe the rest of us could discuss the matter intelligently. Just a thought. P. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: GUEST,Stackley Date: 01 Jan 01 - 10:15 AM MAV sounds like one of the right-wing storm troopers Unka Jaqueass threatened us with, all right. He seems more paranoid, less intelligent, and more full of himself (if possible) than the original- great phony pseudo-statistics, too. There is a difference between being a conservative (or a Conservative) and a right-wing nutcase. This being a music forum, He's more to be pitied than censured He's more to be helped than despised He's only a poor boy that's wandered Down life's stormy path ill-advised.. Cheers |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: John P Date: 01 Jan 01 - 10:35 AM Uncle Jaque, you say: As far as I know, Dan Rather is not a member of Mudcat - so he seemed like fair game to me. "Highly respected"? Speak for yourself on that one. Say, by the way; how are his ratings lately? OK, OK,... I'll lighten up on him, and Jennings, and Brokaw... as soon as you lighten up on Limbaugh! What are you talking about? I haven't said anything about Limbaugh. But OK, I will say something about him. Rather, Jennings, and Brokaw are all employed by the largest mainstream media organizations. Limbaugh usually only appears on outlets that are generally considered to be far right wing, i.e. not mainstream. Most of the rest of the country views with distrust those, especially journalists, who obviously have an extremist political agenda. And before you tell me about the 'liberal media", please be aware that most folks on the far left wing view the American media establishment as hopelessly conservative. I guess getting yelled at from both sides is part of being in the mainstream. American "Serfs" ? Oh sure; like those of us who, unlike Rosie O'Donnell, cannot afford armed goons to keep an eye on her kids for her while she squalls like a banshee for the disarmament of lesser Americans. Or those of us who cannot afford to send our children to competent private schools without non-PC and verbooten vouchers - like Clinton, and Gore, and most Politicians can - while depriving us of that option. Certainly. Yes, some folks can afford things that other folks can't. It's the American way. Are you suggesting that we go to a socialist system and level the playing field? You seem to take umberage at my use of the term "Rooshkies" for representatives of the former USSR. Ye gads, but some of you folks shure offend easily! Would it be possible to lighten up just a little, here? I just forgot how to spell "Rushinnz"! Sheeesh! What makes you think I was offended or took umbrage? I was just telling you how funny I thought it was that you use such stereotypically extremist language and then expect folks to take you seriously. And please, don't ever feel inhibited when it comes to laughing at me; chances are you'll be laughing WITH me, as I frequently laugh at myself. particularly when playing (attempting to play) the euphonium. Have you ever tried to play a euphonium and laugh hystericly at the same time? It ain't easy, I'll tell ye! Besides, with the ease with which you seem to get offended, a little laughter could be mighty therapeautic! Sorry to burst your bubble, but I really wasn't offended by you. Mystified and amused, but not offended. And yes, I was laughing at you. For your sake, I hope I was laughing with you as well. I've never tried a euphonium, but I have laughed hysterically (at myself) while playing the baritone horn. Does that count? Maybe we have something in common after all? Actually, I'm sure we all have lots of very basic things in common -- the desire for home, food, warmth, security, learning, and the ability and freedom to do good work. I'm sure we both have a strong love of our country. Happy New Year. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: John P Date: 01 Jan 01 - 11:13 AM Midchuck, hear, hear! Of course, the extremists being extreme is what usually sparks these discussions in the first place. Mav, I started to write a point by point response to your last message, but then I realized that you are so far outside the norm that nothing is going to have any effect on you. What's the point of trying? Have a nice life. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Jan 01 - 12:02 PM Yeah, yeah, yeah, but do you prefer Shubb or Kaiser capos? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Conservative Cavalry Enroute! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jan 01 - 12:05 PM This being a global community, it's not a bad idea to take that into account when making references to media stuff and media "personalities" who have never made it onto the world stage. It's easily done with a few blue clickies.
|