Hard Times extra verse source, over and out

Subject: Hard Times, over and out
From: Auxiris
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:30 AM

Hello, everyone. Two polite letters and many patient months of waiting later, I am sorry to say that I have been unable to get any response from Fiona Fraser concerning the authorship of the two controversial verses to "Hard Times Come Again No More". I am no longer willing to spend time on this project. Perhaps there is someone who visits the Mudcat from time to time who knows Fiona and who would be willing to ask her who wrote them?

cheers,

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM

You can read about the extra two verses in this thread. But more importantly, IvanB sang it on PalTalk last night and it was beautiful. Maybe, just maybe, we can get him to sing it again on his upcoming concert...along with Gentle Annie and Beautiful Dreamer and My Old Kentucky Home...hehe

Mary in My Old Kentucky Home

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Jim Krause
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:27 PM

I scanned the other thread re: Hard Times Come Again No More. So far as I know, there are four verses to the song, all of which were indeed written by Foster. Dover publications has put out a fairly comprehinsive collection of Foster's songs. It would be worth a look to see if Hard Times... is in it. [I'll bet it is.]
Jim

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:55 PM

I mentioned this once before. I have an old collection of English ballads in which the author claims that it was written as a tribute to the queen and definitely not by Foster.. I will enter the exact quote tonight.

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Auxiris
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:23 AM

Am eagerly waiting to read the quote you mentioned, Sinsull; had never heard that Foster might not have written the other verses either! The controversy continues. . .

cheers,

Aux

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: richardw
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:29 AM

There can be little doubt that Setphen Foster wrote Hard Tims. It is indeed in the Dover publication, page 46, "petry and music by Stephen Foster. There are reprints of sheet music , which can also be found at sites such as the Lester Levy Sheet Music Collection. Foster's brother wrote his biography. We quote him in our recent book Castles in the Air, the companion to the CD Rough But Honest Miner. His brother says that Stephen was often taken to a black church by a black servant girl, Olivia Pise. "A number of strains heard there, and which, he said to me, were too good to be lost, have been preserved by him, short scraps of which are incorporated in two of his songs, 'Hard Times...' and 'Oh, Boys, Carry be 'Long'".

The Dover version and any others I have ever seen on various websites and in hard copy, only shows four verses. But obviously there is nothing to stop anyone from adding. it would be nice to know where they came from.

Richard Wright http://goldrushbc.com

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:49 AM

Those words, hard times, also occur in Stephen Foster's song, My Old Kentucky Home, Good Night found in the DT here.

I won't say it's a prerequisite for being a Kentuckian, but we all know the words!

By 'n by hard times come a-knocking at the door
Then my old Kentucky home good night...

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Jimmy C
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:02 PM

I read somwhere that Foster was at a larger dinner party and he noticed some homeless travellers passing by the window. The image stayed with him and he wrote the song as a result.
There is another completely different song by the same title, sung by Jim Ringer but I don't know who wrote that one ?, I also only know of 4 verses by Foster. The last verse of the additional 2 on the other thraead remind me " My Old Kentucky Home". Foster was a great writer and I;m sure would not have to write almost he same words for both songs ?.

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:49 PM

Just out of curiosity, I looked up "hard times" at the Lester Levy site. There were several songs that came up along those, including, of course, Fosters. It's always been such a sad song. I really love it, but I was also pleased to see this listed:

Title: Better Times Are Coming Bye and Bye. A Song of the Times for the People. A Successor to the Famous Old Ballad Hard Times Come Again No More. Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Words and Music by Will C. Carleton.

A little more upbeat. It is Box No. 140, Item No. 041.

There is also one by Foster in the DT called "Better Times Are Coming," but the words are different than the above by Carleton.

Interesting thread,

kat

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Melani
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 01:24 AM

Re: Foster--in 4th grade music class we used to sing "Old Dog Trey," --"Ever faithful, ever loyal..." or something along those lines; since that is the only place I ever heard the song, I no longer remember the exact words. The notes that went with the song in our music books told a story about Foster being awakened in the middle of the night by a neighbor's barking dog. He tried for some time to convince it to shut up, awakening everyone in the house with his efforts. He finally ran outside in his nightshirt to throw things at it, and when he came back in, found his family grouped around the kitchen table, soulfully singing "Old Dog Trey."

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Melani
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 01:58 AM

Just found "Old Dog Tray" in the database. It's just as soppy as I remember.

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 08:58 PM

All Foster songs are available on www.stephen-foster-songs.de/. Foster wrote four verses plus chorus to his Hard Times, Come again no more. To my mind, the best rendition is by Thomas Hampson and Jay Unger. On the site given above, the lyrics are given in English, or German if preferred. Another site giving most Foster songs is www.acronet.net, select Home Pages, select Robokopp, select music archives, select USA flag. For common Irish songs, select the Irish harp symbol.

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:13 PM

Forgot to mention. The www.stephen-foster-songs.de site gives full documentation. For example, Hard Times was published in 1854, and the first page of the sheet music is shown. Midi is also given for the guitar version of 1855. Other Amerikanischen songs are included in the Archive. Oh, yes, on the Home page, click Music-Archiv, not Deutsch or English, which give you history, etc.

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:33 PM

The song Jim Ringer recorded does not really share the title of the Stephen Foster song. Jim's song is "Waiting for the Hard Times to Go," and it's the title song of his Folk-Legacy recording (cassette #47 -- to be on CD when we can afford to put it out!). Jim wrote the song himself.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:16 AM

Sandy, You may be right, however when I heard him sing it I'm sure it was called " Hard times come again no more". Is it posisble there are 2 sings by him ?. The one I am referring to starts with this verse
I'll play my guitar all night long
Till the good times they come back
Till the Wabash Cannonball comes roling
Down that rusty track
I'll sing the songs that the bluebirds sing
On the clear Green River shore
There'll be a chicken in every pot
when the hard times come no more
Oh hard times, come again no more

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:58 AM

Quite a number of songs use the expression "hard times", like (Hard times in the country,) DOWN ON PENNY'S FARM; (Hard times in the) WISE COUNTY JAIL; and another hard-times-in-jail song, that Pete Seeger recorded, whose name I disremember right now. Senior moment, I guess.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Hard Times, over and out
From: Auxiris
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:22 AM

Sorry to have to drag the conversation back to the beginning of this thread, but the question I asked was: is there someone else who is willing to go searching for the origin of the two verses I submitted to the Forum nearly a year ago? I have been unable to find any more information about them and even though as you say, Richard, "it would be nice to know where they came from", if no one else is going to dig for it, we'll never know. So, once again, any takers?

cheers,

Aux