Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: rosebrook
Date: 16 Oct 97 - 10:44 AM

Nonie Rider, Although when others added to this thread, little light bulbs went off accompanied by delighted "Oh, Wow!"'s, YOU are truly the goddess of interpretation to me, and I sincerely appreciate your interest and labor! Thanks much.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 09:40 PM

Nonie - When bell were rung and mass was sung is a standard ballad line for evening/bedtime, rather than a marriage service.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 09:21 PM

It occurs to me that we keep translating single terms here only. Lemme give you my full guess, in plodding detail rather than elegance, and other folk can correct me.

> EPPIE MORRIE

> Four-and-twenty Hielan' men
> Cam' frae the Carron side
> To steal awa' Eppie Morrie
> For she wadna be a bride, a bride, She wadna be a bride.

Twenty-four Highland men came from the Carran side (mountain? riverbank? This comes up other ballads such as Gil Morrice) to steal away EM because she refused to be a bride.

> Then oot it's cam' her mither then,
> It was a moonlicht nicht,
> She couldnae see her dochter
> For tbe water shine sae bricht,

Then her mother came out, (but) because it was a moonlit night, she couldn't see her daughter because the water shone so brightly.

> Haud awa' frae me, mither,
> Haud awa' frae me!
> There's no' a man in' Strathdon
> Shall wedded be with me,

Stay back from me, mother, stay back from me. There's not a man in Strathdon who shall be wedded with me. (= I won't marry any of them.)

> They've taken Eppie Morrie, then,
> And a horse they've bound her on,
> And they hae rid to the minister's hoose
> As fast as horse could gang,

Then they took EM and tied her to a horse, and rode to the minister's house as fast as a horse can go.

> Then Willie's ta'en his pistol oot
> And set it to the minister's breist,
> O marry me, marry me, minister,
> Or else I'll be your priest,

Then Willie took out his pistol and set it against the minister's chest, (saying) "Marry me (to her), minister, or else I'll be your priest (=bury you = kill you).

> Haud awa' frae me, Willie,
> Haud awa' frae me,
> I daurna avow to marry you
> Except she's willin' as thee,

(The minister says): Hold away from me (leave me alone), Willie, hold away from me. I dare not promise to marry > you unless she is as willing as you are.

> Haud awa' frae me, good sir,
> Haud awa' frae me,
> There's no' a man in a' Strathdon
> Shall married be by me,

(EM says to minister) Leave me alone, good sir, leave me alone. I'm not going to marry any man in all Strathdon.

> They've taken Eppie Morrie then,
> Sin' better couldna' be,
> And they hae rid o'er Carron side
> As fast as horse could flee,

Then they took EM and rode back (home) over Carran side as fast as a horse could flee, because they couldn't do any better (=they couldn't force the marriage, so rape would have to do...)

> The mass was sung and bells were rung
> And they'r awa' to bed,
> And Willie and Eppie Morrie,
> In ane bed they were laid,

Mass was sung and bells were rung (=evening, or a form of marriage?) and they went to bed together, and Willie and ER were laid in one bed.

> He's ta'en the sark frae aff his back
> And kicked awa his shoon
> And thrawn awa the chaulmer key,
> And naked he lay doon,

He took the shirt off his back and kicked away his shoes, and threw away the chamber key and laid down naked.

> "Haud awa frae me, Willie,
> Haud awa' frae me,
> Before I lose my maidenheid
> I'll try my strength wi' thee,

Leave me alone, Willie, leave me alone. Before I lose my maidenhead, I'll test my strength against yours.

> He's kissed her on the lily breist
> And held her shouthers twa
> But aye she grat and aye she spat
> And turned tae the wa',

He kissed her on the lily(-white) breast, and held her two shoulders, but she kept yelling, and kept spitting, and turned to the wall (a more defensible position...)

> "Haud awa frae me, Willie,
> Haud awa' frae me,
> Before I lose my maidenheid
> I'll fecht wi' you till day,

Leave me alone, Willie. Before I lose my maidenhead, I'll fight with you until day.

> A' through the nicht they warssled there
> Until the licht o' day,
> And Willie grat and Willie swat
> But he couldna' streitch her spey,

All through the night they wrestled there, until daylight, and even though Willie yelled and sweated (worked hard), he couldn't stretch her hymen.

> Then, early in the morning
> Before the licht o' day
> In came the maid o' Scallater
> Wi' a goun and shirt alane,

Then early in the morning before daylight, the maid of Scallater(?) came in alone with a gown and shirt.

> Get up, get up, young woman
> And drink the wine wi' me,
> You nicht hae ca'd me "maiden",
> For I'm sure as hale as thee,

(The maid says) "Get up, young woman, and drink the wine with me. (EM says) "You called me a maiden last night, because I'm certainly as whole as you are." (EM's saying, "Don't call me a "woman" now; I'm still a virgin!")

> Weary fa' you, Willie, then,
> That ye couldna' prove a man,
> Ye micht hae ta'en her maidenheid,
> She would hae hired your hand.

(The maid says) "Goddamn you, Willie, for not proving yourself to be a man. You could have taken her maidenhead, and then she would have ?paid to marry you?.

> "Haud awa' frae me, lady,
> Haud awa' frae me!
> There's no' a man in a' Strathdon
> Shall wedded be with me,

(EM says) "Leave me alone, lady, I'm not gonna marry any man in all of Strathdon."

> Then in there came young Breadalbane
> Wi' a pistol on each side,
> O, come awa', Eppie Morrie,
And I'll mak' you my bride,

(Abrupt rescue scene; is it borrowed from another ballad?) Then young Breadalbane came in with a pistol on each side, saying "Come away, EM, and I'll make you my bride."

> Gae (go) get to me a horse, Willie,
> Get it like a man,
> And send me back to my mither
> A maiden as I cam',

(EM to her kidnapper) Go get me a horse, Willie; get it like a man, and send me back to my mother as virginal as I was when I came here.

> The sun shines ower the westlin hills
> By the lamplicht o' the moon,
> Saddle your horse, young John Forsythe,
> Just whistle and I'll come soon

(Another disjoint piece, probably from another song. Here presumably EM to her rescuer) "The sun's shining in the west (and will set soon) by the moon's lamplight. Saddle your horse, young John Forsythe. When you whistle, I'll come to you soon."

I'll have to rummage around in the DB for those two interpolated verses, but it looks to me like in the core of the song, EM refuses to marry anyone, fights off her kidnapper, and demands a ride home in the morning. With the two verses that don't fit into the rest, she turns out to be saving herself for a different man, who rescues her and she goes with him willingly.

If it isn't clear WHY I think those verses are added: the rest of the song has clear, linear action and consistent names, and transitions like "So since the minister turned 'em down, they went back home." None of the other pieces are disjointed or unexplained.

And then suddenly there's a man with two different names who comes (unheralded from nowhere) to rescue her, after she already fought off her attacker. Ignoring her rescuer, she demands from her ATTACKER a ride home to her mother, and then tells her boyfriend to whistle at night and she'll come out to him (which suggests a willingness to put aside her well-defended virginity pretty casually). Meanwhile, even though it's just before dawn, she goes all poetic about the setting sun. I'm not convinced.

And all of this in a song that emphasises her virginity and her unwillingness to marry any man in the area, INSTEAD of "I won't marry you; I'm already betrothed to Breadalbane!" or "I love John better!"

But I think I've plodded long enough...

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 08:13 PM

Yeah, I troweled through the footnotes in the DB for "Cam ye o'er" and they helped with about half my confusion, but at least when you see it written down, it's easier to know what's REAL confusion and what's just bad hearing. (And I'd never heard the term "niffer" for "bargain, dicker" before, which didn't help.)

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Bruce
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 02:13 PM

"Came ye o'er from France" is in James Hogg's 'Jacobite Relics', I, p. 87, 1819 (available as reprint from AMS Press). In his notes Hogg identified a few of the characters, but admitted he couldn't figure out all of them, so you are not alone.

Ewan MacColl sang it on Folkways FW 8756 (re-released in Great Britain on a different label), and in the notes on the accompanying brochure most of the Scots vernacular is translated.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 12:45 PM

I was lucky to grow up around a couple of library reject books on English and Scottish Border Ballads, so I've got a middling eye for the common terms and phrases, but I can still be utterly stumped by songs like "Cam Ye O'er Frae France," where the words I don't know, and the political references I don't know, collide in an impenetrable train wreck.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Oct 97 - 08:52 AM

Thanks Jerry & Nonie for the rest of the translation - "dare not" makes more sense, but I can only roughly translate anyway. My knowledge of the words is via a meandering route through Anglo-Saxon & Middle English studies, and I don't have a family or direct knowledge of Scots.

And Jerry, I think I recall that one of the scariest things about an opponent only wearing his bare "sark"/shirt was that he must have been so unconcerned about his own safety that his opponent's safety would be of even less concern. You don't play footsies with someone in a dark alley yelling wildly and swinging an axe around - you're the one who will get horribly minced up, and (s)he's not going to listen to reason, and will not fight fair.

Same reason for the scariness of blue-tattoed naked Celtic warriors, as I heard it.

Helen

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 14 Oct 97 - 05:20 PM

You're entirely welcome, rosebrook!

Yes, sark = shirt. (The berserkers were so named because they fought in their Bare Sarks, believing that if they wore no armor no weapon could pierce them--or was it because they fought in Bear Sarks, believing that thus they gained the animal's strength?)

Doesn't "daurna" mean "dare not" rather than "do not"?

I agree with Nonie Rider that the tone of "Eppie Morrie" is triumphant, but I agree with Dick that Willie is criticized and mocked for not being enough of a "man" to carry out the rape, not for trying a rape in the first place.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 13 Oct 97 - 06:53 PM

(Re lyric questions: "grat" = "greeted", which means cried or yelled. She's yelling and spitting rather than giving in.

"Weary fa' you" is just another generic curse: "God damn you/Woe upon ye/Ill betide you/De'il tak ye"; the woman who came in with the clothes in the morning is cursing Willie for not forcing Eppie, because if he'd succeeded, Eppie might have "hired his hand," which I presume means "paid to be married to him."

Eppie is NOT the one who's complaining about his lack of force. And I suspect that if the song were intended to show that he should have been more forceful, it would end with Eppie being defeated or punished (by man or God) rather than riding away.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Helen
Date: 13 Oct 97 - 01:47 AM

Dick You may be right about the message in some songs, but this song seems to me to be from the woman's perspective - its tone is triumphant, and the man loses out in this case. Score: Women: 1, men: x quadzillions over the history of humankind (or unkind, perhaps?) :-)

Rosebrook

If you like Alix Dobkin you'll probably love Sileas, because they are the gutsiest harp players I have ever heard - none of that prissy/sissy harp stuff - and the songs they have chosen are very much oriented to stong women.

Helen

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: rosebrook
Date: 12 Oct 97 - 10:27 PM

Thank you Jerry Friedman for your reference to that awesome web site! (And thank you santa's lil' helper for explaining how to use it....am new to browsing) Have only heard this sung by lesbian folksinger Alix Dobkin, and I'm really excited about the opportunity to hear others sing it, too.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 97 - 08:42 PM

I have no idea how traditional the tune is: Ewan MacColl is the only source. I've heard the same tune (with a less militant beat) used for Lowlands of Holland (Patrick Galvin).

SF is Susan of DT--she entered the song (I think)

By the way--am I the only one who isn't sure that unsuccessful forcible sex songs (Eppie Morrie, the Baffled Kight etc.)are less an objection to rape than they are of insufficient force being used? Read the words. Preferably without today's mind-set.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Santas little helper
Date: 12 Oct 97 - 11:50 AM

In case rosebrook is still reading and confused

[ I don't know what your notation "jpd.ch.man.ac.uk/Scots/ScotsFAQ.txt" means.]

he didn't SAY jpd, he said ftp...most browsers will recognize 'ftp' and get you there

You might be interested in the Scots FAQ at ftp://jpd.ch.man.ac.uk/pub/Scots/ScotsFAQ.txt

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Helen
Date: 12 Oct 97 - 01:46 AM

Sorry Bruce, I don't know who SF is - is it the initials of the person who put the tune into the database? I didn't realise that.

I don't know which version of the tune that Sileas sings, but it sounds close enough to the one in DT's database, if you allow for some vocal embellishments.

I have to make a correction, too - I re-read the lyrics, and the liner notes on the album, and Eppie *was* kidnapped, although Willie tries to legitimise the marriage by taking her to the minister's house. I don't know where I got the info about a marriage only being valid if it was consummated, but I'm pretty sure it's right, although maybe not specifically for Scotland. Now I come to think about it, it might have worked the other way around, too. If Willie had managed to get his wicked way with her without marriage vows she may have been considered to be married anyway, if he claimed her as his wife. Not sure at all about that one either.

Helen

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Bruce
Date: 11 Oct 97 - 09:13 PM

Ewan MacColl sang the song on the old Riverside label on the Child ballad series, then the whole series was reissued on the Washington label. It is noted there that MacColl's learned a version from his father and added verses from Samuel Wylie of Falkirk and from Child's text (that from James Maidment's North Countrie Garland).

I can't recall where I saw it, but I once read that MacColl's tune was the only traditional tune to ever have been turned up, so however someone else sings it has to do with art, not folksong. MacColl's is the only text with A traditional Tune.

By the way Helen, do you know who the SF at the end of the DT file stands for?

Subject: Lyr Add: EPPIE MORRIE
From: Helen
Date: 11 Oct 97 - 08:42 PM

Hi
I'll do a rough translation for you.

If you want to hear a brilliant version of this, listen to the Sileas CD - either Beating Harps or Delighted with Harps album. They are a Scottish duo - harps and vocals. @ of the best albums in my collection, (and I have eclectic tastes - everything except C&W, & most Opera.)

Note about the song: Eppie is married to Willie against her will, but according to the law of the time if Willie can't get her to consummate the marriage then she is entitled to annul the marriage and go back home "a maiden as she came", i.e. with her maidenhead and her reputation intact.

Quick notes: "ch" can be changed to "gh" in a lot of words - "licht" becomes "light"
"frae" = "from"
"sae" = "so"
"wadna" = "wouldn't", "couldn'a" = "couldn't"
"gang" = "go
"daurna" = "do not"
"hae" = "have"
"rid" = "ridden"

EPPIE MORRIE

Four-and-twenty Hielan' men
Cam' frae the Carron side
To steal awa' Epple Morrle
For she wadna be a bride, a bride,
She wadna be a bride.

Then oot it's cam' her mither then,
It was a moonlicht nicht,
She couldnae see her dochter (daughter)
For tbe water shine sae bricht, sae bricht
The water shine sae bricht.

Haud awa' frae me, mither, (hold)
Haud awa' frae me!
There's no' a man in' Strathdon
Shall wedded be with me, with me,
Shall wedded be with me.

They've taken Eppie Morrie, tben,
And a horse they've bound her on,
And they hae rid to the minister's hoose
As fast as horse could gang, could gang,
As fast as horse could gang.

Then Willie's ta'en his pistol oot (taken)
And set it to the minister's breist,
O marry me, marry me, minister,
Or else I'll be your priest, your priest
Or else I'll be your priest.

Haud awa' frae me, Willie,
Haud awa' frae me,
I daurna avow to marry you
Except she's willin' as thee, as thee,
Except she's willin' as thee.

Haud awa' frae me, good sir,
Haud awa' frae me,
There's no' a man in a' Strathdon
Shall married be by me, by me,
Shall married be by me.

They've taken Eppie Morrie then,
Sin' better couldna' be,
And they hae rid o'er Carron side
As fast as horse could flee, could flee,
As fast as horse could flee.

The mass was sung and bells were rung
And they'r awa' to bed,
And Willie and Eppie Morrie,
In ane bed they were laid, were laid
In ane bed they were laid.

He's ta'en the sark frae aff his back ("sark" = "shirt?")
And kicked awa his shoon (shoes)
And thrawn awa the chaulmer (chamber?) key,
And naked he lay doon, lay doon (down)
And naked he lay doon.

"Haud awa frae me, Willie,
Haud awa' frae me,
Before I lose my maidenheid
I'll try my strength wi' thee, wi' thee.
I'll try my strength wi' thee:"

He's kissed her on the lily breist
And held her shouthers twa (2)
But aye she grat (fought him off?) and aye she spat
And turned tae the wa', the wa', (wall)
And turned tae the wa'.

"Haud awa frae me, Willie,
Haud awa' frae me,
Before I lose my maidenheid
I'll fecht (fight) wi' you till day, till day
I'll fecht wi' you till day.

A' through the nicht they warssled (wrestled) there
Until the licht o' day,
And Willie grat and Willie swat (sweated)
But he couldna' streitch her spey, her spey (maidenhead/hymen?)
He couldna' streitch her spey

Then, early in the morning
Before the licht o' day
In came the maid o' Scallater
Wi' a goun and shirt alane, alane (gown & shirt)
Wi' a goun and shirt alane

Get up, get up, young woman
And drink the wine wi' me,
You nicht hae ca'd (called) me "maiden",
For I'm sure as hale (whole) as thee, as thee,
For I'm sure as hale as thee.

Weary fa' you, Willie, then, (don't know :-) )
That ye couldna' prove a man,
Ye micht hae ta'en (taken) her maidenheid,
She wuuld hae hired (don't know :-) )your hand, your hand,
She would hae hired your hand.

"Haud awa' frae me, lady,
Haud awa' frae me!
There's no' a man in a' Strathdon
Shall wedded be with me, with me,
Shall wedded be with me.

Then in there came young Breadalbane
Wi' a pistol on each side,
O, come awa', Eppie Morrie,
And I'll mak' you my bride, my bride,
And l'll mak' you my bride.

Gae (go) get to me a horse, Willie,
Get it like a man,
And send me back to my mither
A maiden as I cam', I cam'
O a maiden as I cam'.

The sun shines ower the westlin hills (westward)
By the lamplicht o' the moon,
O --- saddle your horse, young John Forsythe,
Just whistle and I'll come soon, come soon,
Just whistle snd I'll come soon.

from Blood & Roses vol.3 MacColl & Seeger
Child #223
@courting @abduction @Scots
filename[ EPPMORR

CLICK HERE TO PLAY
SF

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 11 Oct 97 - 05:40 PM

Is your question the general plot outline or particulars? He kidnaps her, marries her by force, she fights him off all night and goes a maiden home.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: rosebrook
Date: 11 Oct 97 - 05:36 PM

Jerry Friedman, I don't know what your notation "jpd.ch.man.ac.uk/Scots/ScotsFAQ.txt" means. I tried going to that as a web site, but was not able to. I am appreciative of your help, just don't know how to access it.

Subject: RE: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 11 Oct 97 - 01:34 PM

You might be interested in the Scots FAQ at ftp://jpd.ch.man.ac.uk/pub/Scots/ScotsFAQ.txt, though it's about a more modern version of the language. Incidentally, the author of that FAQ might disagree with your statement that "Eppie Morrie" is in English.

Subject: Eppie Morie: What does it all mean?
From: rosebrook
Date: 10 Oct 97 - 11:34 PM

Having searched high and low, I've finally found the words to the song Eppie Morie in this web site. My question though, is anyone familiar enough with the song so as to offer a line by line "translation"? (translation in quotes because it is in English...)Thank you!