Help: Scottish humor sought

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Kim Hughes
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM

This one may not come across too well on this (the US) side of the Atlantic, but it's my favorite Scottish joke:

Q: What do you call a pigeon at Aviemore?

A: A skean dugh.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Kim Hughes
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:42 PM

Oops, sorry, I think that should have been "sgian dugh."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: haprzombie
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:59 PM

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Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 07:18 PM

Getting better.

Blind Desert Pete, what's "the bishop's collar"? Is it the head of foam or is it the exposed glass at the top of the pint?

We used to call beer-bottle-openers "church keys." Was taken aback when a group of twenty-somethings didn't recognize the term. All they know is pull tabs and screw-offs, of course.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Superdad
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:52 AM

I'd have thought there would be more jokes about sheep.

That seems to be the favourite subject of the English regarding the Scots.

David aka superdad

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Tony in Sweden
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:11 AM

Superdad,
A Scotsman never jokes about the one he loves!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 11:43 AM

I like to think mine was more of an anti-sheep-shagging joke.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Gary Owens
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 02:16 PM

A different version of the three old ladies finding the Scot passed out on the roadside from drink continues ... to teach him a lesson, one lady takes a blue ribbon from her dress, ties it around his wee Scotty, and they go along their way. When he revives sometime later, he heeds the call of nature and upon noticing the blue ribbon, says to wee Scotty, " I don't know where you've been laddie, but Im proud to see you won first Prize !"

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Glenbogie of Glenbogie
Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:55 PM

There's not a single joke here that's new to me. I've heard every one and they didna raise a smile at the first telling. You might get away with it in America but for the love of uisge don't ever try this crap on true Scots. Especially not at the Games, they're far too serious an affair. If you really want Scots' humour try an evening with Ian McCalman or the Big Yin himself wee Connelly. They'll have you in stitches till your arse aches and not a joke in sight. Scots' Humour is a frame of mind. For instance, McCalman on the floods in England. - "We were going to arrange a parcel drop with the Red Cross, but cucumber and cress are out of season." "We have floods in Scotland all the year round. We call them Lochs." "The trick is to build yer hoose On the hill, not in the pretty valley looking up at them." The only person who can make a Scot laugh with him is another Scot. Otherwise we're too busy laughing at all of ye.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: sheila
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 08:21 AM

Glenbogle - I agree with you that Ian is incredibly funny, but so much of his humour is in the way he delivers the lines, not just the words. Transcribed, his stuff is mildly amusing, but in person it's hilarious. Much of what I think of as Scottish humour is related to how it's done - a lift of the eyebrow, a little smile, the attitude of the body, and of course timing and tone.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,MacTattie
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 02:54 PM

Ian McCalman, funny??? Glenbogie of Glenbogie and Shiela you realy must get out more.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From:
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 03:19 PM

This is an E-Mail address of [e-mail] and ask him to send you or tell you where to get a song called "THE WEE MAGIC STANE" it is about the Stone of Scone. It's cute/funny. See what you think. I got the song off http://www.geocites.com/Cape Canaveral/1690/words.htm

Let me know how it goes at the Highland Games?

Yours,

Helen Long

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Gl
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 06:54 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Glenbogie of Glenbogie
Date: 24 Feb 01 - 06:57 PM

A surviving MacTattie? I thought we wiped you lot oot in the Massacre at Shillycranky in 1691 - for being boring and no knowing how tae spel proper.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 11:44 AM

Glenbogie, if none of these jokes made you laugh then there's either something seriously amiss with your Sense of Humour or with that of the rest of the world. As my dear old mither used to say "everybody's oot o' step but oor Tim". Next time I'm haggis hunting up Glenbogie, watch out, or I'll "dook ye in a bogie" OK!

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Feb 01 - 04:48 PM

Big Glaswegian to English Tourist: 'D'ye like Burns?'

Terrified English Tourist: 'Why, yes!'

Big Glaswegian stubs his cigarette out on end of English Tourist's nose...

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: GUEST,Glenbogie of Glenbogie
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 06:14 AM

Och, Big Tim, Come On Man! These jokes are so old they could do with Carbon Dating. Most of them are recycled Yorkshire Jokes and, as we say, a Yorkshire Man is a Scot with all the charity squeezed out of him. I'm no much for tired old Haggis Jokes either. You don't hunt sausages so why pick on haggis just because it is round. If you're daft enough you eat it, if you're canny you sell it to the English in posh supermarkets and get them to eat it. We call it Braveheart's Revenge.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Big Tim
Date: 26 Feb 01 - 07:19 AM

Glenbogie, I bow to your fine wit. Do you know any funny, original, Scottish jokes. Today I just bought a copy of Cliff Hanley's "Skinful of Scotch" (1965) so here's another old one, though maybe, just maybe it will be new to someone, somewhere, some one perhaps under 30 maybe in foreign parts (south of Gretna, west of Ailsa Craig, etc). "So the big fella went into a pub near Ibrox [home of Rangers, the Protestant football team] and has an alligator with him on a lead and says to the barman "hey Mac do you serve Catholics in this bar?" Naturally the boys might have been annoyed in the normal way but they didny fancy the look of the alligator so they kept well back and looked respectful. The barman says, 'sure surr it's quite all right'. So the man says 'right a pint for me and a Catholic for ma pal here'.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 12 - 03:55 AM

Dr: What do you do about sex, Mr McTavish.

Patient: Ah hae ma tea.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:03 PM

This thing has got over thirty verses. As I am entering it on a public library guest computer, whose browser has a time-out, rarely does a long post clear through intact. So, chopped into several posts.

Author: George MacIndoe, 1771 - 1848
lifelong Glaswegian: born in Partick, died in Paisley

JOHN DUBS AND THE LAIRD; or, A MILLION OF POTATOES

Last Martinmas thro' rain and sleet,
At Cambernau'd the laird to meet
    On his auld spavied beast,
Out o'er the hirst, and cross the bent
To pay the bygane towmont's rent,
    John Dubs hotchan east.

The laird sat noofan o'er his glass
Baith rum and brandy, naething less,
    Stood sparkling on the table: --
John come awa, how's a' at hame?
Is Janet weel? the mare't was lame
    For wark is she now able?

What feck o' stirks an' milk cows hae ye?
Your ploughman Tam is he still wi' ye?
    Good craps o' corn and bear,
Pease, beans, potatoes, wheat, an' rye.
Plenty o' clover for the ky
    I hope ye've had this year? --

I thank ye sir, quo' John, for speering,
Tho' weel I wat scarce worth shearing
    was either corn or wheat;
But saebins this is auld term day
The rent nae doubt ye'll gar us pay
    Whether or no we hae't.

John chirted out his hairy purse,
Made frae the back o' some dead horse,
    As rough as ony spluchan;
And while he counted o'er the cash
The laird gar'd fill the stoup afresh
    And in his sleeve was laughan.

John paid his rent, tho' wi' a grudge,
The laird let grab, and gied a fidge, --
    I hope ye'll never miss't;
Here's to you John, I wish ye health
May you an' yours wi' wit an' wealth
    O' warlds gier be blest: --

Syne routed up a glass for John,
Who ne'er the less was thinking on
    A trap he had prepar'd,
Upon the road, tho' cauld and wet,
Nought troubled John but how to get
    Advantage o' the laird.


to be continued

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:17 PM

A MILLION OF POTATOES (second installment)

The drive his sinfu' drift the sooner
He maun begin wi' -- "please your honour'
    (Flattery wha can resist!)
Ye hae a hunder' bows or twa,
O' London dons, I never saw
    Ony sae gude amaist

Your honour, sir, (and claw'd his head)
I'd like a few for next years seed,
    If ye would let me hae them; --
How mony want ye quo' the laird,
John thought a wee, an' fand his beard,
    Twa bows an ye could gi'e them?

Twa bows, nae doubt, I might could spare,
But a' the crap was sald fern-year
    To honest Walter Bryce,
At half a guinea, every bow;
Now, gin ye like, this year's to you
    I'll gi'e at the same price.

But to disperse them a' in taits,
Thro' different han's at different rates
    Altho' the price were doubled,
Twa bows to this man, three to that,
Four to a third -- 'deed John that's what
    I Ne'er could wi' be troubled, --

Weel, Weel, we'se no insist quo John,
(Lengthen'd his face and gied a groan),
    It mak's but little matter;
(A saint ye'd think, if ane's alive,
But faith how mony beans make five
    That John Deil ane kens better.)

Your honour's weel-being I wish
(We mauna throw awa the dish
    Thinks he tho' Crummie fling)
Lang may your usefu' life be spar'd
We subjects a' had better far'd
    If ye had been the king.

For Ne'er did mortal fill a throne
Since that wise monarch Solomon
    That could wi' you compare.
For wisdom, sense, and honesty;
Your honour, muckle may ye hae,
    That muckle ay grow mair.

In the laird's neeve John ramm'd his mill,
The laird ca'd in another gill,
    (Things now are looking up);
Thinks John, I see he's ta'en the bait,
The fault's my ain if now I let
    The precious moment slip.

to be continued

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:41 PM

third installment

Close to the laird John draws his chair,
Who unsuspicious, unaware
    What a' this kindness meant;
Go Sir, quo John I'm sure ye'll never
Refuse a tenant this sma' favour --,
    What is it John ye want?

(John oo'd and nicher'd like a stallion),
Your dons, wer't but a single million,
    I'd be right happy o'er them: --
A million, John, ye're ay sae funny,
A million canna be that mony,
    What will ye gi'a me for them? --

Your honour, sir, (hum ha) I think
And rang the bell for pen an' ink,
They'll run about ten pecks; --
For Twal pecks price, John, ye shall get them, --
They're counted gude by a' e'er are ate them, --
    (John hirsel'd on his specks.)

Your honour's will, a bargain be't
We'll put it upon black an' white,
    In case it be forgot;
It's lang e'er I the taties need,
An' time gars things wear out o' head, --
    The laird sign'd what John wrote.

to be continued

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:56 PM

fourth installment

Four months elaps'd, seed-time drew on,
To lift his bargain east gaes John,
    The laird look's o'er the yate;
Good morrow sir! Weel John, what now? --
Ha, Sir, your honour fill'd me fou,
    Amaist, last time we met.

Frithat I mind, that when right weel on,
A million o' your dons -- quo John,
    (His auld gray head he scrunted;) --
Ay, that's as true, ye're very right,
Bring yont your Tam tomorrow night
    An' we shall hae them counted.

Deed sir (hum ha) 'twill tak some time
To count a million, -- I'se gae hame
    An' bring Tam east to-morrow;
An't answers you 'tween three an' four,
Your lad an' him can count them o'er --
    Frae Janet I shall borrow.

A shilling, aible aughteen-pence,
To make you some kind o' a mense
    For treating me sae weel,
At Martinmas, in the head inn --
Ingratitude's a bigger sin
    Than traffic wi the Deil.

Wi' what John said the laird was pleas'd
Sae weel, his verra han' he squeez'd,
    and clapped him on his shoulder; --
At your ain time, John, I'll be blad
To see you here the morn, and said
    He lik'd him as a brother.


seven verses to go

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:10 PM

A MILLION OF POTATOES (conclusion)

Next day John and his ploughman Tam,
Whose face was like a baccon ham
    Which baith round, brown, and fatis,
Gaed yont, -- John's han' the laird he shook it,
To count his man and Tam were yoket,
    Ten hunder' Thousand taties.

Wi' neeves like grapes they to the guddle;
The laird maun condescend to fuddle
    John's Janet's aughteen-pence:
Hegh but this warld's ill divided,
No' ae drap where it's far maist needed, --
    "Mind self," is right gude sense.

They counted a' that afternoon,
Five hours close wark, when they were done
    Says Tam we'll hae them met;
They measur'd just eight score of pecks,
This job, I doubt, the laird will vex,
    But forty thousand yet.

As day brake butter brake, -- the laird
And John came stepping thro' the yard --
      Weel lads how come ye on?
Is this the million lying here?
And are ye sure ye've counted fair?
    Wrang'd neither side, quo' John.

The million, faith, it's nae sic thing,
Ther's forty tousaand aff the bing --
    Whilk measures just ten bows; --
The laird would neither bin nor haud,
Stamped an' rag'd like ane stark mad, --
    John calmly prim'd his nose.

Ye needna be in sic a huff,
Your rage I donna care a snuff,
    (Spits) That I dinna car't;
I want nae mair than what's my right, --
Gae, says the laird, gae fraw my sight, --
    Quo' John, I'm no' soon fear't.

A plea commenc'd, John gain'd the day,
Poor soul the laird was forc'd to pay
    A hundred pounds and ten
E'er John would yield the grip he had;
But feelingly the laird he bade
    Tak better care again.

pp. 46 - 61,
An Anthology of the Potato
editor: Robert McKay
Dublin: Allen Figgis & Co., for Irish Potato Marketing Company, 1961 "500 copies only"

to repeat: Author: George MacIndoe

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:53 PM

Here's one from GM Fraser's McAuslan stories:

An orangutan escaped from a circus as it passed near a Highland estate. A pair of ghillies were out hunting, when they found the ape lying dead in a ditch. They stared at it for a few minutes, then one said to the other:

"It's too lang in the legs for a Fraser, and ower-hairy for a MacPherson. Run you up tae the Big Hoose, Erchie, and see if ony o' the gentry's missing."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 02:22 PM

Young lass asks McTavish what is worn under his kilt.

"Nothing, lassie. It's all as good as new."

"No," she says, "seriously, what's under there."

So he takes her hand and puts it under his kilt.

"Oh, it's gruesome!" she cries.

"Well," he replies, "Have another feel. It's grew some more..."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:22 PM

A man booked into a bed and breakfast in Morningside and on his first morning he was served a bowl of porridge, two rounds of toast and two pats of margarine.
He asked the landlady if he might have some honey for his toast; she looked dubious, but disappeared into the kitchen, returning shortly with a minute thimble-sized pot ith a scoop of honey in it.
He contemlated itt for afew seconds and finally said, "I see you keep a bee".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:38 PM

Scottish humour (no' humor!)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: LadyJean
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:22 PM

My mother used to say the Highland Fling was invented by a Scot trying to pick a lot in a pay toilet.

I was, in my youth, a competition Scottish Highland dancer. Now I say that I danced over two swords and still have all my toes.

Oh, and there's the Scottish Official Board of Highland Dancing, called,the SOBHD. Make of that what you will.

Then there's the classic, "What is worn under the kilt? Nothing madam. It is all in perfect working order."

Oh, and a Scot wanted to be buried with a bottle of fine whiskey, and asked his friend to put it in his coffin. The friend said, "Aye, but do ye mind if I run it through first."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:29 PM

How do you make copper wire?
-Drop a penny between two Scotsmen.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 08:49 AM

The Sots actually have a very fine, if somewhat dead-pan sense of humour – this is a story told by Belle Stewart at the Singers Club in the seventies.

The Woman On The Scales.
There was this old woman, you know, and she come fae the country and she was goin' tae Glesca and she cam' into the station and she had a half-an-hour to wait on her train.
Well, she saw these machines at the station, you know, and she's walkin' doon the platform and it speaks your weight and tells your fortune when you put the money in. She says, "I dinna believe it!"
However, she puts in the penny and the machine says, "You're fifteen stone. When you step off this machine you'll fart."
She stepped off the machine, she give a hell of a fart. She says, "God, that's great! It does know."
So on she goes and gets on again, and it says now, "You're fifteen stone and you're gaun tae be seduced when you walk off this machine." Off she gets, off the machine, and doon comes a big hieland man in, tearin' along the platform and he throws her to the ground and he makes passionate love to her.
Oh my God, she's so exhausted. She says, "That's great! That's good! I must try it again."
And she put another penny in and this time it says, "You are fifteen stone, but with all your fartin' and your fuckin' aboot you've missed your train!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 03:27 PM

"Oh, and a Scot wanted to be buried with a bottle of fine whiskey" - no, LadyJean, nae never, nae more. There be nae such thing as "fine whiskey". No E in whisky, you see... ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 04:38 PM

Hoo miny times dae a huv tae tell ye!....it's "mair" no' "more"!

Ach ye 'll nivir mak a Scot.....puir cratur. :0).

Howyedaein auld pal......hope yer well.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 06:21 PM

The following story appeared (as truth) on another thread in this venue, but I cannot remember which. A rich American happened into a Scottish pub, and, feeling expansive after several drinks, ordered a round of the most expensive single-malt whisky -- on the rocks. The whole place fell silent, and after a pregnant pause, the publican said mildly, "I'm afraid our ice is rather warm this evening. Would you care to try the whisky neat?"

He deserves consideration for Ambassador to the US when independence happens.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 03:17 PM

Would I be right in thinking most or all of the 'jokes' about supposed Scots meanness are English in origin? Freudian projection perhaps, ahem, since any Scots I've ever known were remarkably generous, though they didn't know how to spell whiskey.
In Ireland, we call a bottle-opener a church door, rather than a church key - it's the same shape as those tall pointy church doors.
My sole Scottish joke, sourced from a diplomat, who told it with a naughty twinkle. A Glasgow woman want to know what a Highlander has under his kilt, so she asks can she take a look. He lifts up the kilt and she looks at it and exclaims, horrified, "Ohhh, it's gruesome!" He leers and lifts the kilt again and says, "Now it's gruesome more…"

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Wireharp
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:57 PM

Q:What is black and tan and looks REALLY good on a highland piper?










A:................a rottweiler........

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:09 PM

Someone ought to mention The Vital Spark/ Para Handy regarding Scottish humo[u]r. Duncan MacRae, Roddy McMillan, John Grieve....

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 05:45 PM

Ake - I've got the important bit right. I'm still working on the accent... :p And the only thing I want to make a Scot is... *ahem* ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: HuwG
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 12:11 AM

Jock and Annie are looking in the window of a cake shop. Annie points at one piece of confectionary and says "Is that a cake or a meringue?"

Jock says "Nay, you're reet lass, it's a cake."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 10:52 AM

nobody is getting the meringue joke, now posted more than once. Saying it out loud hardly helps...

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 11:15 AM

Mrrzy, "Tony in Sweden" was kind enough to post a message explaining "Am I Wrong" / am Ah wrang, so now at least I get it.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: JenBurdoo
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 12:46 PM

Not a joke precisely, but I've heard that when the officers of the 51st Highland Division captured at St. Valery wrote a dance whilst in prison, the German guards refused to send a copy of it to their families in Scotland -- they took one look at the arcane symbols and language used to mark dance steps and thought it was a secret code -- until the Scots danced it for them to prove the innocence of what they had written.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 01:39 PM

A bekilted highlander at a dance asked his parner if he could take her home - she refused.
He said, "You must ha'e seen the glint in ma een lassie.
"Nae Jock. I saw the tilt in your kilt".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:43 PM

Look up the punchline "Well, ye ken noo."

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 02:51 PM

Sounds like the one that goes, Lord, Lord, we didna ken! And the Lord in His Infinite Maircy....

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:30 PM

Would quotes from Sir David Lyndsay be apropos? (Ane Pleasant Satyre)

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 05:01 PM

None of these relate to Scottish/Highland humour, which is whimsical, droll and can be cruelly ironic......but mostly gently ironic :0)

Most of what is printed above comes from the Music Hall tradition of the early twentieth century. Stereotypical nonsense.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 07:22 PM

I'm definitely not having that. So much of the finest entertainment we enjoy today evolved from the music hall tradition. As for jokes about kilts and tartan, well these phenomena are hardly archetypal Scottish in any case. Yes, we can try to draw a line between harmless, gentle ribbing and a more harsh, abrasive humour that puts us Into anti-Scottish attack mode. But let's not get too sensitive, eh? After all, you've parodied the Scots in one post in this thread with a caricature of what you see as their brand of spoken English. Not for the first time either.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 04:04 AM

Are you being serious? I've lived among people who spoke "Lowland Scots" or Gaelic all my life.
I wouldn't expect you to know much about Scottish humour, if you have never lived and breathed in it.

Subject: RE: Help: Scottish humor sought
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 05:56 AM

"I wouldn't expect you to know much about Scottish humour,"
I wouldn't expect anybody to know about Scottish humour unless they'd studied it and got an overview
Ho might be an expert on local humour, if you were observant and had a sense of humour - but that can vary within a few miles.
Livng somewhere doesn't give you superiority of a national humour - why should it?
Jim Carroll