Elizabeth Cotten

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 12:14 PM

Sea Shells,

yes,there is a lot of wrong information bandied about on Mudcat, but as others have said, it's usually not intentional. One thing I do find disturbing is that I've PM'd the management here about wrong information in the "official" Mudcat bios (like the misinformation in the Libba Cotten one noted above), and as far as I know nobody ever changed them.

Of course, people have lives too...

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:49 AM

I got John Hurt's autograph and shook his hand in some club in DC in '64 - when I got back to my seat, I noticed that Libba had been standing next to him - so I didn't get her autograph. But I did see her later at the Old Town School and have always played "Oh, Babe," which I must have learned at the OTS.
Carolyn Hester had a nice recording of that song, but it might sound a little dated now. I think Bob Gibson also had a version.
I think she said that she wrote the song as a child when some neighbor was gossiping about her.
Chris in Wheaton

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 10:54 AM

I had the pleasure of picking her up at the San Francisco airport and transporting her to Marin County for the "Black Point Folk Festival" in 1976. On the basis of this one-hour acquaintance, I recall her as a delightful person, bubbling with good humor and radiating kindness. It was a privilege to be her chauffeur! Wish I could remember more, but as a "go-fer" I didn't have much time to sit and talk -- or listen -- that weekend, other than when I was in my car.

Claire

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:21 AM

I also have the CD "Elizabeth Cotton - Live" recorded in 1983 (She was in her nineties!)

The notes say that she wrote "Freight Train" when she was just twelve!
The song was recorded by Nancy Whiskey and was it Chas McDavitt (or Devitt) skiffle group? and also Peter Paul & Mary.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 09:56 PM

refry

Subject: Lyr Add: FREIGHT TRAIN (Elizabeth Cotten)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:42 PM

Freight Train

Freight train, freight train, run so fast
Freight train, freight train, run so fast
Please don't tell what train I'm on
And they won't know what route I've gone

When I'm dead and in my grave
No more good times here I'll crave
Place them stones at my head and feet
An' tell 'em all that I've gone to sleep

When I die, Lord, bury me deep
Way down on ole Chestnut Street
So I can hear old Number 9
As she goes rollin' by

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From:
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:09 PM

does anyone have the words to frieght train?

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 11:15 PM

Don, By the time I did that concert at Lyman King's place I was doing the song in a whole other key with different chords (key of G) instead of how I recorded it (key of C) ---mainly because my voice had sunk from various medical procedures. Those new chords gave the song a whole different feel.

And it was my old uncle's gun where he had to change the lock, the stock and the barrel too. Other than that, it was the same gun. So it couldn't've been your grandad's axe. ;-)

That old LP is still available from Sandy as a custom cassette.

Art

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: BanjoRay
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 08:46 PM

I spoke to Peggy Seeger years ago about Elizabeth Cotten. She told me that no one in the Seeger family knew she could play until one day they heard her in another room playing one of the family's guitars - she hadn't picked one up for years.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 11:38 PM

Kivatrader:

Spanish Flangdang is on the CD we cited above.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 10:10 PM

Art,

I never heard that first recording. My info was from a recording of a house concert you did a Lyman and Caroline Kings in Fulton NY about 15 years ago. You sounded like you knew what you were talking about. Now you tell me its like my Great Grand Dads axe, Grand Dad replaced the handle and Dad replaced the head but its still Great Grand Dads axe.

Don

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 10:03 PM

Don M.,

Thank you BUT... The version of "SHAKE SUGAREE" that's on the first LP I did for Sandy Paton on Folk Legacy was one that had gone through the folk process like Jedediah Smith running the gauntlet to eascape the Blackfeet tribe. In the notes I wrote for that LP I said: "With profuse apologies to the composer of this song, Elizabeth Cotten, I admit that the folk process has altered this song a bit. First of all, I learned the song in 1965 from Lisa Kindred who had already changed it from the original. Then I added a verse or two of my own, tossed in a minor chord or two (or three). Both the words and the tune are now quite different from the original. Other than that, it's the same song. **BIG GRIN**

Elizabeth Cotten played her guitar left handed but strung it the same way one would string a guitar to play it right handed. I.E. her guitar was upside-down-------with the treble strings on top and the bass on the bottom. That's upside-down from the way the strings'd normally be.

Bill Stains also plays this way---upside-down. (For Elizabeth that meant she had a hell of a time keeping her skirt down. ;-) **another BG**

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: kivatrader
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 09:38 AM

Great Thread! Brings back some memories of hearing her songs done by different pickers in the Northwest in the late 60's -- nayway, does anyone know of a recording of her instrumental piece, "Spanish Flang-dang", also called "Spanish Fandango"? I seem to remember it as being played in double dropped D tuning, but it's been a while since I heard it or tried to bring it back on the fingerboard.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 09:13 AM

Jeepman,
I originally learned it a few years ago from a Stefan Grossman video, which is the second one down on the (linked) page. Good video and accurate tab. The arrangement on this video would be considered somewhere between a beginner (but assumes you already have the alternating thumb concept down) to an junior intermediate level of finger-picking, and he breaks it down very well in a clear, easy-to-understand manner. It's not a difficult song (IMHO) except for a somewhat tricky little lick played over an E chord. There are a couple of cool licks in this particular arrangement which can be inserted into other songs anytime you feel like it.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Dani
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 08:19 AM

My CD "Elizabeth Cotten ~ Live!" says it was recorded in her ninth decade. It won a Grammy in 1984. It's under Arhoolie Records, and is the best place to hear "Oh Babe, It Ain't No Lie."

I originally learned the song listening to Jerry Garcia sing it, and as usually happens (because I had not the good fortune to hear him sing it in my living room) I got some of the words wrong. Having traced it to her, and learned it well, it is one of my favorite songs! Get the CD - it's priceless. But failing that, PM me, and I will sing it for you.

Dani

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 02:05 AM

The British singer who sang (sans royalties) Libba's "Freight Train" was someone called Nancy Whiskey. Mike Seeger recorded some early songs (ostensibly while Libba was working for Charles and Ruth) and has them on a recent Folkways album. Sorry, I forget it's title. Does anyone else know?

Rick

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:54 PM

At some point shortly before she passed away Libba Cotton was presented with a new Martin Guitar. She was named a a living legend and a National Treasure by the people who officially name such things. Dana Klip from the Syracuse area was her accompanist for the time while she live locally in Syracuse and he has probably the best and clearest info of anyone I know.

Art Thieme also has some good info on Libba Cotton and did a great job of her version of Shake Sugaree.

I have had these facts checked and notarized by an independent Information Clearing House.

Don

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:23 PM

Hey, Justa. Where can I hear and learn "Babe Aint No Lie"? Jeepman

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Justa Picker
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:13 PM

"Babe Aint No Lie" has always been one of my favorites to warm up with. "Freight Train" is great fun at a nice clip, too.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:02 PM

Libba Cotten spent some time in Syracuse. Unfortunately, I never got to see her perform but I always liked her work. She also won a gramy for best traditional or ethnic album but I don't recall the year 9Brain cell that died yesterday. Seashells; Most of us do try to check our facts when we put out something here. A lot of times we deal with opinion andsupposition. I don't agree with everyones opinion on things bandied about here but I know none of the people who frequent the mudcat are not dealing in misinformation. If you found erroneous info that was a genuine mistake not intentional. If it was me, I apologise. However, I might also point out that a little courtesy goes a long way. Kindest reguardsa, Neil

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Dani
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 12:11 PM

Found this in my email box this morning! What a small world! Or is it a small time-space continuum....

I'll be out of town :( but will try to invite myself to one of the school programs.

##############

1. Classical Libba Cotten:

Here's a press release about a "classical" concert with folk roots that I though y'all might find interesting, too:

On March 11, 2001 at 8 pm, Carrboro resident and international performing pianist Greg McCallum will present Carrboro's History Through Music and Memories as a part of the opening celebration of the Carrboro Century Center (some background on the center here: http://carrboro.com/carrcommctr.html).

The performance will include selections from McCallum's critically acclaimed program A Weave of Southern Music, which has been performed throughout the Southeast. These selections include: Frederic Rzewski's avant-garde composition "Winnsboro Cotton Mill Blues," which recreates the sound of textile looms and transforms this din into a labor song from South Carolina; "Tribute to Libba: Variations on Freight Train by Elizabeth Cotten" written by Carrboro composer Julie Harris which pays tribute to Carrboro's own folk hero Elizabeth Cotten; and McCallum's own "Hymn Quilt" which celebrates the diverse ways that people play and sing hymns in the South. Together, these compositions will help relate the history of Carrboro as a Southern cotton mill town.

Special guests for the performance will include Carrboro citizens who will tell stories about life in Carrboro over the past ninety years, including working in the mill, going to church, riding the train and simple pastime activities in a small mill town. Also we will be honored with a performance of some of Elizabeth Cotten's most popular songs, including "Freight Train," by Brenda Fennell, Libba's great-granddaughter who lives in Durham. Brenda recorded "Shake Sugaree" with Libba when she was only twelve years old and toured around the country with her to major folk festivals. Brenda will be accompanied by local guitarist Diane Eckland. Brenda will also share memories about growing up with her great-grandmother. The event coincides with the 90th anniversary of the town's incorporation. Learn about the history of the "Paris of the Piedmont" through music and memories. This program will also be presented for the fourth and fifth grade students of the Chapel Hill/Carrboro system on March 12-13.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 10:05 PM

I had the privelige of seeing E. Cotton in 1969 or 1970 in Gatlinburg, Tenn. It was a Bluegrass get-together with Bill Monroe and Bluegrass Boys as the main attraction.

Mr Monroe came out to the parking lot after his Sat. night show and we all picked and grinned all night.

Next day was a day show and Elizabeth Cotton was a guest. She captured everyones fancy. She did indeed pick the guitar upside down,(left handed). She sang and picked Freight Train, and several blues songs. SHE WAS GREAT.

JEEPMAN

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 10:05 PM

Smithsonian Folkways has put out a CD called "Elizabeth Cotten, Freight Train and other North Carolina Folk Songs and Tunes". It really shows what she could do including one cut where she plays banjo.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Nancy King
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:56 PM

Good point, Sarah2. I had exactly the same reaction.

Libba Cotten, shepherded by Mike Seeger and Alice Gerrard, played at the very first (1977) Washington Folk Festival at Glen Echo Park. She was fabulous, of course, and a wonderful treat for our first time out. I was running the Festival office, and shortly after Libba's set ended, a non-folky (sometimes you CAN tell) woman came into the office asking where the concert was. "All around you -- we have a whole festival!" I said expansively. "No, no, I was told there was a CONCERT here today. I walked around and all I saw was some old woman with a guitar!"

It's great to remember what a fine lady she (Libba, I mean)was.

Cheers, Nancy

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:21 PM

Oral traditions change stories around, and that's what happens here. It's useful to get the facts added in sometimes, especially when the facts are actually more interesting than the stories.

But it's healthy that this site can act as a creator and circulator of legend as well as fact. Setting the facts right is a way of helping make sure that the legend is fitting, which isn't necessarily quite the same as being totally accurate. "Print the legend" as the Editor said in The Man who Shot Liberty Valance.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Sarah2
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 09:04 PM

Gee, Seashells, I'm glad you know all. How nice for you.

It's a pity you haven't quite mastered a polite way to correct others.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Sarah2
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 08:53 PM

She played Kerrville, don't remember which one, but Mike Seeger walked her to a chair at the front of the stage, put a blanket on her lap, set the guitar in her hands and set the microphone for her. She was slow and old, but she sang strong and true. And she called us children. "You children sing this with me."

We did, of course.

Sarah

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: GUEST,She Who Sells Seashells by the Seashore
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 05:29 PM

According to The Crazy Bird:

"The story is that she worked for the Pete Seeger family as a housemaid. Then they discovered she could do more than mop and she started a carreer at quite a ripe age."

It seems that every time I check into this forum there's really stupid misinformation being spread about.

Libba Cotten never worked for the "Pete Seeger family." She worked for Charles Seeger's family with his second wife, Ruth Crawford Seeger. Pete was a son of Charles Seeger and his first wife, Constance. By the time Libba came to work for the Seegers, Pete was close to 30 years old and long gone from the family home.

Furthermore, Libba's work with the Seegers was mostly child care and cooking, not mopping.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 02:43 PM

In 1977, I sang several times at the annual Northwest Folklife Festival, held at the Seattle Center over Memorial Day weekend. It's a massive festival, with as many as 2,000 performers, with performance stages all over the Center grounds and vast hordes of people wandering around and listening. It always draws huge crowds, but this year, one of the big draws was Elizabeth Cotton, who had been brought in as a featured performer.

In the evenings, multi-performer concerts were held in one of Seattle Center's many large theaters and broadcast over our local NPR affiliate. Each performer was allotted about fifteen or twenty minutes. I had the honor of being selected to sing in one of these. The theater was packed, and it was all a bit overwhelming.

The most overwhelming thing about this particular concert was that Elizabeth Cotton was also singing there that evening. A living legend -- right there! And my wife, Barbara, and I were backstage, watching and listening from the wings.

And guess who was scheduled to immediately follow Elizabeth Cotton?!!?

The audience wanted a lot more of her, but realizing that the situation gave a whole new dimension to the expression "a tough act to follow," they were kind. I was well received, for which I am very grateful.

In the meantime, Barbara had a chance to chat with Elizabeth Cotton backstage. And when they finished chatting, she hugged Barbara.

It took us awhile to come down from that evening.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: BlueJay
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

One of the Great Ones. We saw Elizabeth Cotten in the early eighties, sharing the bill with Mike Seeger. What a spellbinding show. During the intermission, she talked with my daughter, Annie, (Poo-Twa's wife), for a couple of minutes, even though bigger, more important types were reqesting her attention. Annie was only six or seven at the time. I'll never forget what she wrote on Annie's Program: "To a sweet little girl. Bless you, Elizabeth Cotten". What a memory!

Funny thing about this place where we saw her: The Arvada (Colorado), Center for the Performing Arts. My fiance and I also saw Dan Crary there, right before we got married. During the intermission, Mr. Crary talked with us, and "blessed" our upcoming marriage. It must have worked: we're still going strong. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 01:15 PM

// Elizabeth fought for years to get the rights and recognition. Any opinions? //

Yes, this is what I recall -- apparently neither Seeger nor Cotton had done enough of the hard paper work (which ought not to be necessary in a better world).

To his credit, according to my understanding, Seeger helped her in this.

Personally I hate this copyright thing in how it is used by the entertainment industry.

Whatever, everybody knows she created it -- that's what matters, now anyway

All power to folk music -- folk music never die!

rgrds CrzyBrd

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 12:11 PM

I had understood that her song Freight Train was modified and copyrighted in the 50's by some English singer and Elizabeth fought for years to get the rights and recognition. Any opinions?

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Burke
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:57 AM

The Mudcat bio says They quickly became friends, and Libba spent the rest of her life as the Seeger's domestic.

This is not accurate. Surely she ceased the domestic work once she began performing? Ever if not, she did buy her own home in Syracuse, New York in 1978. Here's a timeline of her life.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Max
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:33 AM

Here is our bio.

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:22 AM

Have you searched the forum here, too,for discussions?

She was a pip. Listen to her live recordings, and you'll get a flavor for her. A friend told me once about hearing her perform (I think at Duke University, near her hometown). Not knowing what to expect, people were surprised to see this little old woman walk out on stage with a purse on her arm, put the purse down by her chair, and proceed to regale them with songs and tales, then pick up her purse and walk off. I love that image!

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Will Bakker
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:06 AM

Thank you, picker, that is more than I expected. And fast!

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: The Crazy Bird
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:03 AM

Will,

The story is that she worked for the Pete Seeger family as a housemaid. Then they discovered she could do more than mop and she started a carreer at quite a ripe age.

She played the guitar back-handed -- that is, strung normal, but she fretted with the right hand and picked with the left.

Somebody may be able to fill you in with more -- why not try a serach on google.com?

rgrds CrzyBrd

Subject: RE: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Justa Picker
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 11:00 AM

Here's some info, with links to more.

Subject: Elizabeth Cotten
From: Will Bakker
Date: 27 Feb 01 - 10:55 AM

Who can tell me more about Elizabeth Cotten. I know she wrote Freight Train, and on Napster I found her singing this song. From a search on the forum I also found she lived from 1893-1987.