Non-Music - Academic Success Question

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM

One must not forget ALL the people that contribute when it comes to academic success. My supervisor gave a party and an Honorary Ph.D to Ed, one of the machinists in the department - he had built all the home-made electron spectrometers in the research group over a 20 year period. We, as students, always attended the machinists Xmas bash - they were more important than the academics in many a way!.

As for scholarly work, I've learned a lot from such "scholars" such as the likes of James Keelaghan (and many more). Indeed much of the world and a lot here can be deemed to be following scholarly pursuits.

Rana

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:21 AM

Hi Mary,

Long time no chat (I miss visiting on PalTalk)! No, the ol' Cream and Crimson actually has a fellow who is the rare bird indeed. He's a scholar and true potter.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:09 AM

road scholars, I love it. (Route 66! Great story, Sandy).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM

This is a wonderful thread. Like my friend Rick, I am just taking it all in. I find interesting the differing perspectives of the "academics" vs. the "roads scholars". I would say that under strict interpretation, I agree with Peter T. (as I am often do).

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:45 PM

At NBS/NIST there were two levels of review for papers. First reader was in the division and the 2nd outside. We got to pick the division reader. We picked the one that knew least about the subject. To get it passed? NO. He/she read what was actually in the MS and got all the typos and all the other glaring simple errors fixed. More advanced readers tend to read what they expect should be there, and often missed most of the simple errors.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:15 PM

And good proof-readers to clean up their typing errors!

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:10 PM

This discussion of professors, adjuncts, assistants, etc., reminds me of the classic story told about George Lyman Kittredge, the great ballad scholar at Harvard who did his early studies under none other than Francis James Child. Later in his career, when his friends urged him to acquire a Ph.D in ballad studies, Kittredge was reported to have responded, "I would, but who could examine me?"

About fifty years ago, I was paid to read aloud to four blind students at the University of Washington. Four bucks an hour! But the greatest reward came from the fact that one of these students was a graduate in the History department. As his reader, I was given a stack permit and even a carrel in the stacks. For a kid who had left school just before he turned fifteenat the insistence of the administration (I was a bit of a rebel and expressed it boldly), that stack permit put me in hog heaven. My interest in folklore scholarship had just been kindled, though I knew almost nothing about the available literature on the subject, and the freedom to wander around in the stacks, investigating at random various wolumes, was extremely advantageous.

Access to a good library has remained important to me ever since. When we lived in Boulder, I was allowed the use of the University library, thanks possibly to John Greenway. In London, Caroline and I made regular use of the library at the Cesil Sharp House. When we moved to the boondocks in Vermont, we were forced to build a folklore library of our own -- which is the expensive way to do it -- and it had been put to use not only by us, but by many of our friends since we moved down here to Connecticut.

One last, self-gratifying story. Back about 1963, I was hosting a concert/lecture with Frank Proffitt and Lawrence Older at Goddard College. I spoke about their ballads and songs, their regional traditions, etc., and they presented examples of these in illustration. At one point, one of the school's professors, sitting next to Caroline in the audience, leaned toward her and whispered, "Where did he do his work?" In her sweet and gentle way, she smiled and whispered, "Route 66." Bless her heart. She gave me one of my proudest non-academic moments.

Sandy (conservative enough to think academics need to have academies to represent)

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:45 PM

That lab instructor business can be fun. Nurse's lab. sessions especially, as most of them are bored with only old guys like 19 or so around (they went to college to get an Mrs) and don't pay much attention to anything except their neighbor's notes. Sometimes one actually works at her experiment, so all the others are trying to copy her notes. Cozy little knot.

A favorite was connecting the Bunsen burner's rubber hose to the water line instead of the gas line, then when they turned the valve the water quickly sent the Bunsen burner flying, and the burner's tubing whipped around, throwing water everywhere. The nurses were afraid of anything spouting (maidenheads were still valuable selling points for that Mrs in those bygone days), and I had to dash through the water, and make a grab for the valve to cut it off. Got a lot of unexpected baths that way.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM

It's easier as a grad student. You get your classes before lunch. Half your exercise is the brisk 1 mile walk to a place that make good hamburgers, then it back to your teaching assistant job (lab instructor of review session tutor). After supper (6:30- 7) you work in the lab on your thesis project to 11 PM, then another mile walk to the nearest tavern for your bedtime beer. You do your studying on weekends.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM

I'm sorry if I made it seem I wasn't taking you seriously, Li'l Neo.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:55 PM

I'm too tired after a 9 hours straight of classes at school to comment!

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:48 PM

Years study for an advanced degree mean nothing. After (usually) 7 years credits toward a degree expire, and if it's a required course you take it again.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

Hey! He finally came to the Mudcat and gave it a read...after me hounding him for years!! Hiyahoney-son...nice of you to drop by!

Okay, now then, "Kats son" is okay, but(here's my little speech to newbies) there was another "Kat" here before me, so I am "little kay kat."

Oh, and you favourite aunt is "bet" on here. **Big Grin**

luvyason...momkat

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:36 PM

Well I was being serious here Alex. I honestly feel Rick should receive a Masters degree for all the work he has contributed. After that, those University folks would realize he has been working on his doctorate for years and that he should receive recognition for that too.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:31 PM

Master's degree?! Doctorate!

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:30 PM

After having the opportunity to study under Rick Fielding as a music student I would say that Rick has deserves an honorary masters degree in music from the University of Toronto for his contributions to the field of folk music.

Little Neo, undergrad

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:25 PM

Ah, kat may not be spelled with a capital K, but Katsson may be. Remember F. Frederic Skat?

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

...first lesson though, kat is not spelled with a capital K! *BG*

And as kat would say: luvyaguys!

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Kats son
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM

Thanks for the greeting. I may have learned something too, but wouldnt admit it.(thats why i dont use punctuation) keep her in the dark.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:17 PM

Hi Kat's Son! Welcome to Mudcat! We really like your mom. She's definitely a regular here, and speaking just for myself, every single one of us learns something from her nearly every day.

Ciao!

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Kats son
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:09 PM

Wonderfull reading from all. It is a great forum to analyze. I think that mousthief may be hitting on the truth in message dated 3/22.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:18 PM

Apparently Roy Bailey sang that at his retirement party at Sheffield University - came from his mouth, so must be true!

Rana

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM

Always remember that, no matter how bad your research director is, do it his way until you've got your degree.

Subject: Lyr Add: THEIR WAY (parody of 'My Way')
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM

Re: Academic Success

THEIR WAY
(Bob Blue)

I came, I bought the books, lived in the dorm, followed directions.
I worked, I studied hard, made lots of friends that had connections.
I crammed, they gave me grades, and may I say, not in a fair way,
But more, much more than this, I did it their way.

I learned so many things, although I know I'll never use them.
The courses that I took were all required, I didn't choose them.
You'll find that to survive, it's best to play the doctrinaire way
And so I knuckled down and did it their way.

Yes, there were times I wondered why I had to cringe when I could fly.
I had my doubts, but after all, I clipped my wings and learned to crawl.
I learned to bend, and in the end, I did it their way.

And now, my fine young friends, now that I am a full professor,
Where once I was oppressed, now I've become the cruel oppressor.
With me, you'll learn to cope, you'll learn to climb life's golden stairway.
Like me, you'll see the light and do it their way.

For what is a man? What can I do?
Open your books, read chapter two.
And if it seems a bit routine,
Don't talk to me, go see the Dean.
They get their way, I get my pay.
We do it their way.

@parody @school
Copyright Bob Blue
filename[ THEIRWAY
DT

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

CamiSu,

I got cut off above!

Two examples:

1. Grad student (science background) TA.ing an engineering course whilst doing his master's. On going to the Ph.D. level, he was required to take the course since he didn't have an engineering background. His TA was someone he TA'd.

2. My brother got caught in the sessional-lecturer trap (equivalent to the perpetual post-doc trap in the sciences - he did pure maths - algebra to be precise. One place would only give 9 month contracts which they kept on renewing for 3 years. If they gave a 12 month contract, they would have had to consider him for a tenured position.

As you said - academia!

Rana

PS - I think this got sent before because I pressed tab and enter

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: annamill
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:05 PM

Oh well..it's all academic anyway...

L.A.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

I think we're arguing 2 different points here. One is, "what does the phrase academic success mean in English?" This is the one I answered.

The other is less well-defined, but might be stated, "can you achieve the same sort of thing (learning, knowledge, respect, erudition, your criterion goes here) that someone who is called an academic success has achieved, without being affiliated with a school and/or without having a degree?"

Answers to the first question will not satisfy persons asking the second.

Maybe even Kat and her son were asking 2 different questions, or understanding the conversation in terms of these two very different issues. Perhaps her son thought they were talking about the first question, and Kat thought the conversation was about the second? Only they can answer this one, of course.

Just some thoughts to hopefully clear the waters a little.

Alex

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM

John! That wouldn't be that school we all know and **** that uses a lot of red and was in the news yesterday? hmmmm....

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:21 PM

Awright! Thanks, John Hardly!!

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:17 PM

Since this post...

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Spud Murphy
Date: 21-Mar-01 - 09:20 PM

Kat=0
Kat Son=1

Point, game and set!!

...was made AFTER I posted this;
My experience is somewhat "outside the lines" but I acquired my BS on the strength of my professional life.

It's not an honorary degree, but the college recognized that they didn't have anyone as advanced in my field as I, so it was therefore silly for them not to acknowledge the fact by giving me credit hours.

Chalk one up for the "School Of Life"

I will repost my previously invisble post in order to even the score.

Kat 1
Son 1

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:14 PM

Bert, Broader base fit's me, but I wasn't a great theoretician. I just knew which end of the screwdriver the blade was on, so I could fix what wasn't working. Theories don't often give scaling factors, so experiments are necessary to find out what's 'real' in the theory, and how to scale to real world dimensions.

The great academe was Albert Einstein, who came up with E=H*nu, relativity, Brownian motion (first 'noise' theory) and others, while working in a Swiss patent office. At Princeton he was a sounding board for other theoretician's theories, but never accomplished anything new after coming to the USA. {He died a few years before I did my post-doc there, so I never saw him.)

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:07 PM

I'd say you can be a success with academic credentials outside academe, but to be an academic success, you have to be in academe. I, for instance, have a lot of "white man's papers" but I don't work in that field, I dabble in it. So I have a PhD in a science, and I teach 1 night a week in that area. But my real, day job is in marketing, and I am successful there. So I am academic, and successful, but would not consider myself an academic success. My old advisor might, from his point of view, though! (*BG*)

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

Reminds me of what the Wizard of Oz said to the Scarecrow:

"You don't need a brain! You need a diploma!"

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Bert
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

Hi katmeluv, I don't want to get into the semantics here, but I will say I've known people who were an academic success but were absolutely bloody useless at their studied profession. And I've known self educated people who were extremely knowledgable.

I've generally found that self educated people have a broader knowledge base than many academics.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: LR Mole
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:08 PM

I won't say more than this: love the subject, like most of the students, enjoy the classroom, am eternally delighted by colleagues. Don't understand the career ladder, don't seem able to play political games and avoid people in suits who care lots about enormous sums of money and their piece thereof. So far, the grownups in suits have left me alone.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:05 PM

Mary, teaching qualifications can be riduculous at any level. In junior college I had a fabulous math teacher. He was a German Jew with a math Ph. D. under the famous Felix Klein at Goettigen. He was working in Berlin when the Gestapo told him to come to their office the next morning. He went over the border that night, but couldn't get his credentials together. He got to the USA, but without his credentials couldn't get a good job. He first got a job in a private school naval academy (Farragut) in Idaho, then went to my junior college in Bremerton, Wash.

All sorts of good teachers went to Washigton state to get jobs, then found they had to go to college there to get a required course in Washington State History (no exceptions, no matter what other qualifications or their teaching specialty).

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:34 AM

I have one acquaintance with a PhD in the dimensions of sheep's femurs and another with a PhD on characteristics of one of the fungi that grow on the decaying foliage taken by leaf-cutter ants into their nests. Often these types of specialist PhDs go on to teach or work in areas other than these specialist areas where they have undoubtedly contributed to the academic knowledge on that subject.

This is were I begin to have a problem with the word "competent". My own research was in a particularly arcane area which really doesn't bear any relation to or help me with the job I do now.

I'm beginning to feel more and more that we have these various "hoops" we are expected to jump through "to reach the required level" that increasingly bear little relationship to what we end up doing. Is it perhaps because people don't have the skills or time to assess knowledge and competence in a more meaningful way?

Best regards,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:27 AM

CamiSu, I'm not sure of the requirements in your state...but here in Kentucky until recently, it was ridiculously time consuming to get a teaching certificate in order to teach in a public school. Even though I had a BS degree in chemistry, I had to take ~30 more hours (mostly busywork and courses that were just different from what I already had) in order to get a certificate. Then to top it all off, if you didn't use that certificate in ten years, you had to get a Masters Degree before you could teach high school! (That also happened to me.) Now I think they have finally waived some of the crap to allow qualified people to get a teaching certificate. Are you familiar with Jeffry Wigand? The movie is discussed here. hmmmmm...Russell Crowe played him in the movie...I better go back and take another look! Anyway, he was a top tobacco industry whistle blower who lost his job, then taught high school chemistry in Louisville. Years ago, this would not have been allowed. Check your state to see if they have some ridiculous requirements.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:27 AM

Whoops, wrong above. Now what happened to the one I thought I posted?

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:24 AM

Forgot my name again (2nd above). Altzheimers is a severe handicap in the academe/intellectual/researcher/teacher world.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Grab
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:16 AM

McMoo, you're right, sort of. I meant "PhD _level_", not actually "possessing a PhD". But if you have a PhD then as Fibula says, you _have_ to have contributed to the field, which makes it a good yardstick. Such ppl who acquire recognition independently of having any qualifications often get honorary degrees to recognise this. Unfortunately this is now tarnished by giving honorary degrees to anyone who (a) is famous for other things (for publicity) or (b) pays lots of money to the university.

As far as not being competent after getting your degree - all it means is that at the time you got it, you knew enough to be competent. PhD ppl may not be competent now, but at the time they did contribute something to the field (which is how they got their PhD). And that illustrates another point - academic success requires _continuous_ work - you can't just stop and say, "I'm successful now, so I don't have to produce anything else", or you'll get superseded and/or forgotten. To really be successful requires continuous contribution.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:13 AM

To add to CamiSu's type of story, I have 2 examples.

1.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: CamiSu
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 11:05 AM

A bit of an interesting story. A friend, who wrote the book on a particular field of computer software design, cannot teach the course at Dartmouth, that uses his book as its basis. Reason? He doesn't have a degree. Also, Dartmouth uses adjunct Professors to teach many of their courses, because it is less expensive. Now these adjuncts do not lack in the degree department. The college simply will not hire them on as full professors. Ah, academia.

I do not have a degree in anything. But my expertise in engineering and building theater sets has led to talks about teaching this subject in the local high school in a couple of years... we'll see.

CamiSu NDGA (No Degree, Good Anyway)

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:57 AM

Just to re-iterate Bruce O. comment.

Back in the UK (in my day anyway), Professor was a distinction - we had 4 Professors at Reading - one in Organic, inorganic, and 2 in physical chemistry - the rest were lecturers. Reader was also an honary distinction (there was one).

In north america the titles basically measure the hoops.

Assistant - starting, not tenured Associate - tenured Full - top of the scale.

I agree with Peter, being an academic does not necessarily imply scholarly. I have come across some very good people indeed, but have also come across what I would term mediocre or dead wood, who have been carried by their post-docs (and grad students).

Rana

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:51 AM

Bart - well said. My undergrad degree provided me with a theoretical basis and a little bit of practical experience for a job in archaeology, but it took a couple of years out working in the (literal) field before I knew what I was doing. Likewise, my computer knowledge from my MSc wasn't quite as handy as it could have been when I got my first programming job. There's a definite difference in types of knowledge. I want a nice balance of both.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:49 AM

Thanks for the thread and the intelligent discussion folks. Nothing to add...just absorbing.

Rick

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:45 AM

Mary, while this doesn't address your question, directly, this article is very interesting and sheds some light.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:44 AM

I find it useful to make the distinction between "practical" knowledge and "theoretical" (or "pure") knowledge. For me, the term "academic" applies to the latter, more than the former.

If someone has an "academic" interest in a subject, I usually see that as meaning they are pursuing the information for the sake of the learning, rather than in pusuit of its application. Practical application comes later, when the academic base has been laid. In my experience, the degree that an "academic institution" bestows is a credential that has no more (or less) validity than real-life experience.

Taken at a very practical level, if a pipe bursts in my basement, I would prefer to hire an experienced plumber than a guy with a degree in hydro-physics (if there is such a thing), who has never held a pipe wrench.

As far as Mudcat as an academic institution, why not? I'm sure any certificate earned here would have more validity than those certs qualifying people to be ministers that we used to get through the mail in the 60's, to dodge the draft. I think the 'Cat also qualifies as a trade school, though - there is a lot of practical "nuts 'n bolts" information here, too.

Bart

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:20 AM

mcmoo, I'd be curious to know how many professors/instructors at large universities here in the US don't have a PhD. When I was a college freshman, our best teacher did not have a PhD and received considerable pressure to do so. I think he finally left that institution.

Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:08 AM

Mary...I work in industry now rather than in a research environment as formerly and I don't see that at all. Maybe it's different in the States but here in (continental) Europe it's about individual ability in most industry jobs except perhaps highly specialised company research labs.

Best regards,

mcmoo