 sj |
||
|
||
Non-Music - Academic Success Question
|
|
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:06 AM Yeah, I agree mcmoo - and having a crap undergrad degree never hindered Carol Vorderman ('catters outside the UK may not know to which ubiquitous celebrity I refer...) |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Lady McMoo Date: 22 Mar 01 - 10:01 AM I see that point Fibula. Certainly you SHOULD contribute to the knowledge base to achieve your PhD. But academic success can also be achieved without a PhD. One of my very best lecturers during my first degree actually only had a 3rd class BSc degree and no PhD. But someone at some time had given him a chance and a position at the university and he subsequently did very well as a lecturer and published a great number of well-regarded papers in a difficult academic area. Best regards, mcmoo |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:58 AM Fibula, when my husband was in vet school I worked at a large university, Auburn, as a "part-time adjunct instructor" (official title) in the chemistry department. I assisted a professor who had ~700 students by proofreading the text he was writing, supervising exam preparation and grading, conducting help sessions, and on rare occasions delivering lectures. I was essentially the liason between the professor and students. I only had a BS degree (that's the degree given to a college student after four years of college work). Most US colleges give a BS (Bachelor of Sciences) and a BA (Bachelor of Arts). In chemistry, the BS is the tougher degree in most schools, (there are a few exceptions.) All this to say, Auburn, and I assume most schools, are concerned about accreditation, so they don't want teachers on staff that don't have higher degrees such as PhD. Therefore, they use instructors with lesser degrees, but just give them other names. I think they used people in the health professions, ie dentists, in a similar way. And mcmoo, industry also rewards one according to the degree as opposed to the achievement. I worked in one lab as a technician (and was paid as a technician) and did more advanced work (chemical patent) than at another company where I was an official "chemist." Back to the original question...Peter said it all, as usual. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:52 AM I see what Grab means about "Academic success doesn't start until PhD level, which is the point where you're actually making a contribution to the knowledge in your field". To gain a PhD you HAVE to make a contribution to your field. I'm sitting here trying to type up my first PhD review. I have a "mission statement" in front of me that says that students must generate new research ideas, convince others that they're good ideas, do the research to show they're viable, and then publish the results so they are available to everyone. For my BA and my MSc I didn't have to make a valid contribution. I was taught the background facts of my subject, and I worked on small scale projects for my dissertations. Now I'm into the realms of being taken seriously (I hope) and actually coming up with new ways of doing things. Of course, that's not to say people can't make a significant contribution at an earlier stage, just that many don't get that chance. At PhD level you have to, or you don't get the PhD. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:32 AM Let's not get into titles. The same words can have somewhat different meanings in different countries. What might be a Lecturer of Reader in England would be about Associate Professor in the USA. My understanding from long ago that Dr. was rare ain Germany, and there were more Professors than Drs, so double distinction was Herr Dr. Professor. I know some Germans Dr. researchers and teachers, but formal titles too often are barriers among peers, and titles are ignored. I got volunteered on a project one time to upgrade the USA government's capability in a small area, where there were some international comparisons to be made. I had to design and build an instrument for the purpose. I looke at other designs, and saw Germany's PTB (Physicalishe Technishe Bundesanstalt) design, very complicated, but I thought one point was weak. I asked my chief what gives, I didn't thinl PTBs design would give the best answers. He replied that in Germany if PTB said it was right, then it was right by definition, and that was all that was required. If a German in another lab had an instrument that didn't agree with PTB's, then he had to juggle his instrument untill it did agree with PTB's. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:26 AM Cheers. That's weird! I'm used to this UK and Ireland system whereby Professor is a title earned after years of research and teaching, and awarded when you're doing something really significant, e.g. Head of Department - and you don't get called it til you achieve it. Here most of the lecturers are just known by their first names, or Dr. So-and-so, or Mr or Ms So-and-so. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Lady McMoo Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:22 AM Grab said "Degree-wise, a BS/BEng/BSc/whatever merely says that you've been taught the skills to do stuff competently in your area of work, nothing else. Academic success doesn't start until PhD level, which is the point where you're actually making a contribution to the knowledge in your field." I'm not sure I can subscibe entirely to this statement. I know many Bachelors degree people, and even more PhDs, who could hardly be said to be competent in their area of work at all. And there are many PhDs who are not academics but some BS/BSc people who are. And there are many, many BS/BSc people who are making a great contribution to knowledge in their field. Like others above I'd be inclined to reserve the word "academic" for someone (could be a variety of levels) working in an academic institution of some sort. mcmoo |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Wavestar Date: 22 Mar 01 - 08:47 AM Fibula Mattock- The answer to your question is, yes, pretty juch all University instructors are referred to as professor. It's a term of respect, more often than one of earned status (although the professor status is also applied - the differentiation is only really made by colleagues and administration.) Students may refer to 'the lecturer', but if they want to use a name, it will usually be preceded by professor. Doctor, on the other hand, is a title of degree and status that is earned. :) -J |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Peter T. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 08:45 AM I think -- as an academic -- that academic means someone who belongs to Academe, an institution of higher learning. It has nothing to do with being intellectual, being a scholar, or indeed being knowledgeable or wise. It is a sociological distinction. It is worth pointing out that a scholar is much more highly regarded by academics than a "mere academic". There are very few scholars in universities -- people who are fully saturated in a subject to which they are themselves making substantial, worthy contributions. They are the exact equivalents of craftsmen in the arts and crafts. In 30 years in and out of universities in 4 countries I have met perhaps 10 scholars. They are revered -- the way Doc Watson or Pete Seeger are revered around here. They embody the subject, and why it is seen to be an integral expression of humanity at its best. For a variety of reasons -- some mentioned -- it is very hard nowadays to be an academic, let alone s scholar in a traditional subject outside of university unless you are independently wealthy and very persistent. But it can be done. It is virtually impossible to do this in the sciences, simply because of access to equipment. It can be done: James Lovelock, the inventor of the Gaia Hypothesis, is an independent scientist. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Grab Date: 22 Mar 01 - 07:13 AM Kat, I don't think the cyber-age has anything to do with it. You achieve academic success by studying a subject until you are of the same standard of knowledge as the leaders in the field, are yourself coming up with new concepts in that field, and are known (by the ppl involved in that area of study) to have knowledge in that area. The Internet doesn't come into it at all. As Wolfgang says, there were many self-taught scientists in the 1800s. Degree-wise, a BS/BEng/BSc/whatever merely says that you've been taught the skills to do stuff competently in your area of work, nothing else. Academic success doesn't start until PhD level, which is the point where you're actually making a contribution to the knowledge in your field. And academic success isn't the same as base talent. I know ppl who've played guitar for 30-40 years, but none can play like Mark Knopfler, simply bcos they weren't born with the skill. Rather (I think) academic achievement implies research. So a talented painter hasn't achieved academic success, no matter how good they are. But someone (of whatever level of skill at painting) who's done detailed work on the chemical composition on paint over the years, and who knows how these paints were made and how they change over time, that's academic success. I think the key is the "based on formal study" part of the definition. You can do formal study on your own; you just have to apply the same standards to your research that would be used by "professionals". I don't think the Mudcat's an institution of learning, though. It's more an institution of _information_. You don't get a degree from a library, you get a degree from a university or college, where you study methods, use those methods in research, and use the library as a source of information for that research. Grab. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:59 AM Okay, I'm curious. Is someone who lectures in a university in America a Professor? Don't you have people who are known as Lecturers, or is Professor the title for any teaching member of staff? |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Mar 01 - 04:13 AM A voice from Germany: My response to kat's question is basically a mixture of what Bruce and Mousethief have been saying with some qualifications. In theory, everybody can have 'academic success' in Germany independent of affiliation. In practice, it has never (qualifications later) happened in basic science since about one century. It has happened and still happens in applied sciences and especially arts that e.g. a very successful and creative architect gets a tenure in architecture or a painter without any degree gets a tenure in arts. The very few exceptions in science are men (nearly exclusively jews) who were happy to survive Nazi Germany and had no opportunity to study the normal way. Some of them, having only been able to study privately at home, took over the tenures from Nazi professors. Extreme (and correct, I add) decisions in extreme times. 150 years ago, it was not uncommon, even in science, that a privately trained scholar published such a great finding that he got tenure. The reason that this does not happen anymore (though it could, in theory), is that nowadays (1) the basic training you need just to be able to read the papers of your peers takes so much time that you hardly could do it untutored and (2) the equipment for experiments is so expensive and/or elaborate that you'd often not be able to pay for it. Some of of the equipment takes a very long training by experts before you can use it without making errors. So the in-a-nutshell response for Germany is: Kat is right, in theory, her son for all practical purposes. Wolfgang
|
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:03 AM PS: What happened to academic success here? |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:02 AM In Rhode Island I'd head for the fabulous sheet music collection at Brown University. They even have an 18th century single sheet song with music. The song is on my website, but I don't have the tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:53 AM Unbelievable that they sold those! I am glad they ahd the sense to donate the other to the LOC! We used to live 2 blocks from there and loved browsing, my kids esp. enjoyed it. One of the things I loved so much about New England was that every little town had its own sturdy, usually brick library with all kinds of treasures. If you ever get a chance try to make it to the library in Westerly, Rhode Island, esp. to their annual book sale. They put it on in a huge gymnasium, wall to wall books. I found some real treasures there. I will see about getting up to the college library here this next week and see what they have. Their specialty is of course Western literature, but a lot of Wyomign was settled by "Remittance Men" the younger sons of British aristocracy and had fantastic libraries which they often donated. Next time we are in Sheridan I will check up there, too. It has a history of being espcially cultural with ties to the Queen of England.:-) |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:27 AM I got one of the tunes for "Pretty Peggy of Derby" (Aird's 'Airs', III, 1788-on my website) by mail request from the Forbes Library, who had the only known copies of the 1st 3 volumes of the series in the USA. The following summer I went to the Forbes Library as a stop-off on a summer vacation. I intended to make a complete contents lists of the 3 vols, but found they had sold them to a bookseller, Lubrano (on web). I don't know where the 3 vols. went. (ABCs of all 3 vols now on web). A reprint of vol. 4 was donated by the Forbes Library in the early 20th century to the Library of Congress, where it remains. I made a contents listing of all and copied some of the tunes in it, but don't remember if there's anything about it on my website. Small libraries are easier to work with than large ones. They don't have so many requests to deal with, and can afford to spend more time on you. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 21 Mar 01 - 11:31 PM Are all Uni's so strict? I hold a card to our college library, just as a citizen of the state, as I could do for the University. When we lived in Northampton, MA my son and SO used to haunt the Smith College library where they found all manner of very rare books to peruse at their leisure. They couldn't check them out, but they could have copies made. Likewise the local library there, Forbes Library. First editions were stacked alongside everything else, really rare stuff. It, btw, had a completely different catalogue system developed, if I remember correctly, by Mr. Forbes himself. I would be happy to see what the libraries here have as far as unsual, regional music publications. I did just send off photocopies of an out-of-print book of early pioneer days to a couple of Mudcatters; from journals of a man who married a Sioux woman and lived near Laramie Peak. It's one of those, printed by the author, things that one would never find elsewhere. Spud, I will be sure to send along you assessment to my son! **BG** BruceO, I am really amazed that anyone would deny you access to old music; you have such scholarship etc. it seems absurd for them to be so narrow. KarenK lives near Yale, I wonder if she knows anyone there? Thanks ya'll, this continues to be quite interesting. kat |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Mar 01 - 10:42 PM Mary, search the catalog on the web. Among WPA records I found are CD 3260, fiddle tunes, and CD 3262, blues. What else I didn't try to find. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:34 PM I'm not sure of the names and terms used, but the University of Kentucky has a rare books collection in the main library and an Appalachian Center (part of the music library, I think.) I have contacts at both. Besides, the main library has a gorgeous quilt collection that I love to visit. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:24 PM Mary, the kind of thing a folklorist would look for in Kentucky is if there was an unreprinted collection of folksongs made by the WPA in the late 1930's. Several states have these. They usually get deposited in university library rare book and manuscript collections, and are often not noted in the general catalog. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Spud Murphy Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:20 PM Kat=0 Kat Son=1 Point, game and set!! |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Mar 01 - 09:17 PM Mary, I have done things along those lines. There's a tune from the Euing Collection on my website. The song wasn't worth posting. It was gotten at the library for me by a web-friend in Scotland. All the faculty members I knew at Yale have retired, which is why I got stymied there, and they have the only known copy of the book in the British Isles or North America. I have the Library of Congress and the Folger Shapespeare Library handy (no Ph. D.- no Folger) and have even gotten stack passes at some univ. libraries through having friends on the faculty. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:57 PM Ya never know, Bonaphyte...you might be playing to packed houses and getting paid beaucoup bucks some day to pass on your banjo techniques! |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:45 PM If I were to total all the hours I have spent reading and contributing to threads on the Mudcat and apply those hours to studying a course within a university degree program, those hours spent focused on my university degree program would be banked towards a profession which would hopefully one day pay my rent. Whereas, hours I have spent on the Mudcat would not. Professor Neo |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:25 PM LOL...oh thanks a lot, Richm! Hahaha:-) |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: raredance Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:19 PM kat, maybe you need to focus more on the adj. def #3, that seems to fit here without stretching. ;-) rich r |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:04 PM Wavestar, I like the intellectual bit; that may fit more what I was thinking. This is a great discussion, much food for thought, please continue. Here's the definition I pulled up last night when Colin and I were at it:
Main Entry: 1ac.a.dem.ic
Main Entry: 2academic
|
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 01 - 07:51 PM Perhaps we could get the the Mudcat accredited as a Virtual University in some sensible place, and then we could all award each other advanced degrees. "I qualified for a multiple BS at the MVU" - sounds quite impressive. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 21 Mar 01 - 07:39 PM I'm with kat's son here. Bruce, in the past, I've used student's ID's to check out books at a university I wasn't attending. I'm not advocating anything here...also, I like to have librarians for friends in order to take advantage of the interlibrary loan stuff and perhaps bend a few rules. I also used a medical school library to copy articles (though I would have had to come up with and ID to check a book out.) Perhaps with the contacts at Mudcat, you could get warm bodies all over the world to personally go to various libraries. I can offer my services for Kentucky, and with a little effort, most of the colleges in the Southeast. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Mar 01 - 07:38 PM Academics, can be purely personal ambition with no need of recognicion. If you want recognicion, it's called 'Publish or Perish". An affiliated institution will pay the fees (academic journals are rarely self supporting). However, in science where I was, the institution did not have to be colle or university. Many government labs (NASA, NOAA, NIST, and others) and some research institutions had staff that qualified as 'academics'. We weren't graded on normal 'civil service' requirements, the requirements were adopted from levels for professorships at major universities. (GS16- professor emeritus, 15-full rofessor, 14-assistant professor, 13-associate professor) About 2/3 of my collaborators were other government/ research instutions staff members (Russia, Czechoslovakia, France, Japan, India, +). The rest were done with university professors. Remember it'sPublish or Perish", and it's got to be good to get it past the journal editor and his peer reviewers, and he will get the experts in the field (no mater where they are) to review it. You are also honor bound to review something if you are asked to, or have a very good excuse (like you just died), or can suggest someone better than you to do it.
|
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Wavestar Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:49 PM Kat, I would refer to what you're talking about more as intellectual success than academic, mostly because I also associate academics with academic institutions. It is much easier to get libraries to give you access to things if you're attached to a University... but I'm playing with semantics. -J |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: John Hardly Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:31 PM Hi Kat, My experience is somewhat "outside the lines" but I acquired my BS (I'm not saying I invented bullshit, but BS and I are so intimately acquainted that it IS hard to tell where I leave off and BS begins..)..no, not that bs, I mean my bachelor's degree, on the strength of my professional life. It's not an honorary degree, but the college recognized that they didn't have anyone as advanced in my field as I, so it was therefore silly for them not to acknowledge the fact by giving me credit hours. Chalk one up for the "School Of Life" on the other hand... ...I was cut no slack in acquiring teaching certification, even though I was clearly capable--proven by experience. |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM From my experience those people I know personally who have achieved an academic level of expertise but have not received a University accreditation for their skills have always longed for such recognition. So much so, I have watch a significant number of them pursue a University degree after the fact to satisfy that need. Little Neo |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:14 PM It's much harder to get anywhere if you're not, but I know of a few who made it, without even a Ph. D. I have the Ph. D., but am now retired, and my non-affiliated status makes it hard to get material. I've struck out twice trying to get a song at Yale, and it looks like my request to the Euing Music Library of Glasgow Univ. last night fell on deaf ears (I even had their library call number for the song I wanted, and offered to pay all costs). |
|
Subject: RE: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: mousethief Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:12 PM I am of the understanding that "academic success" means "success at school" where "school" usually means a college or university or other formal institution of higher learning. Self-taught people can be many things, and most of them are more important than being an academic success, but the one thing they cannot be is an academic success. In other words, I think your son has it right. Whether or not the world SHOULD be this way is a further question (and one fully worthy of debate, and which I would not mind debating with you or anybody else here on the Mudcat). But according to what the phrase actually means in common usage, I'm afraid the world-as-it-is favors your son. Sorry, sweetie. :-) Alex |
|
Subject: Non-Music - Academic Success Question From: katlaughing Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:01 PM My son and I got into a rousing discussion last night and I told him I would throw it open to you learned souls to see what you think. He was saying that to be an academic success one must be connected in some way with an institution of learning, i.e. college or university. I was saying, yes, but there have been people whom I would consider an academic success who are more self-taught and have become teachers in educational settings, recognised as such, but not through the usual channels. And, also people who are not connected to any institutions of same, whom I would still consider an academic success because of their knowledge and the respect they receive. We went to our respective dictionaries and looked up the word "academics" and it seems we could both be right. By one of the definitions I found, the Mudcat could be considered an insitution of art and those of us who teach/learn on here could claim academic success. I believe the parameters have been blown to bits by the cyber-age. What do you think?
|
| Share Thread: |