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BS: Exploration!
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:25 PM Sorry about the double posting. I didn't think it had got there! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM Thanks a lot Keith! Emma I'm not sure if I can get to the Jug cos our car died earlier on. If I can I'll probably see you there |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM Thanks a lot Keith! Emma I'm not sure if I can get to the Jug cos our car died earlier on. If I can I'll probably see you there |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Apr 01 - 05:09 AM Besides the horror of what humans are capable of doing to others, let's remember that the regime responsible was isolated and crushed by more enlightened peoples. I take pride that my parents' generation took up that task, and that Britain stood alone against the Natzi in 1941. Warmest respect to you for facing and defeating your fears and nightmares. Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: DougR Date: 13 Apr 01 - 12:29 AM Firecat, I guess I go against the grain here. Do what you are comfortable doing. If you don't go a hundred years from now it won't make any difference. If you are uncomfortable going, I see no good purpose in your going. I would not want to witness a execution. Should I be encouraged to go just to see how bad they are? Just an opinion. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: JeZeBeL Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM I'm really proud of you for going Kat. I think you should get down to the jug next week and we can have a proper chat then. Well done. I was with you all day but nothing can compare to being there in person. Speak to you soon. Emma ()x()x()x()x (HUGS N KISSES) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 12 Apr 01 - 08:30 AM Well, I'm back! Thanks to everybody! I've learnt that I don't like that sort of place! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: magician Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:26 AM Kat. Phone me when you get home if you ned to talk. I was with you all day. Love you. Daff |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Helen Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:15 PM Firecat, I agree with Annamill, about being empathic. For about 40 years - until a few years ago - I also used to have very vivid and graphic, and very real dreams of a place like that. I don't know if it was a past life or whether I was being visited by souls from those places, but it has intensified my empathic abilities. Amergin, the way you said it is very much the same with me. For myself, I would have seriously considered not going. I don't need to see those places to feel the emotions and the sorrow about what humans do to each other. Some people do need emotional and ethical triggers, others don't. As an empathic person, I risk being totally incapacitated by horror and then feeling incapable of taking any action at all, or feeling that action is not going to make any difference. I prefer to maintain a healthy balance so that I can still take action. But, I do believe that facing my fears is the best thing I have ever done to move forward in my life. So going there could have been a viable choice for me. In situations like that I look deep inside of myself and go with what feels right for me. What other people think or decide can only be used as useful information for making your own choices. Whether everyone else judged or misjudged you for your choices is really beside the point if you believe you are making the right choices for yourself. [Obviously, making our own choices allows us to make mistakes as well, but it is all part of the path of life. One thing to remember about the path of life is that there are very few paths that we can't turn back on if we make a choice and then change our minds. Sometimes the path we take which seems to be a mistake is the right path for having essential experiences, but sometimes it is a chance to be big enough to admit to having made a mistake.] What you do need to be aware of is that some of those lost souls at Sachsenhausen may have recognised that you were aware of them, and may have attached their awareness to you. Give them love and visualise the light and send them on their way. Don't hang on to them, don't feel obliged to fix their hurts, there is everything they need in the light. Bless them, give them love, and send them towards the light. Some of them just need to be shown the light and will be ready to go. Some of them may still hang on to the hurt, but they cannot be helped until they are ready to move on. Don't take on responsibility for them. Just act as a guide to usher them forwards. Or bless them and send them on the way that they choose to go. One day they may be ready and they may come back to you and ask for your help. Love and hugs Helen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Bert Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM I didn't post to this thread before you went, because I remember the horror I felt when I visited the museum at Lidice and I didn't want to influence your decision. I'm very pleased that you were brave enough to go. The feeling will remain with you forever and you'll be a better person for it. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Tig Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:22 PM I knew you would actually go and I'm not surprised you ended up leaving in tears but I'm VERY proud of you in the fact you didn't chicken at the last minute. There's lots of REAL hugs to claim on Thursday (you can convert the Zen Hugs) Love you Baby Bearxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: mousethief Date: 10 Apr 01 - 04:07 PM Gosh, I don't know what to say, except congratulations for facing your fears, and a prayer for inner peace now that you've been. Experiences like yours help us remember the magnitude of what happened there, and that it must never be allowed to happen again. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Lonesome EJ Date: 10 Apr 01 - 04:02 PM Firecat, you are to be commended for having the courage to face your fears, no matter how unsettling the experience was. Whatever souls remain in that place, I also feel, would have had the power to divine your feelings of sorrow and empathy, and you should be proud of your exploration. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Amergin Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:34 PM Oh, firecat....Don't be ashamed for crying....that only shows how great a person you are.... Here's a hug foryou from Oregon... ((((((((((((((firecat)))))))))))))))) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Ebbie Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:19 PM I doubt anyone would recognize my stick figure as human! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Hollowfox Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:18 PM {{{{Hugs from Ohio}}}} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Ebbie Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:12 PM Shoulders to lean on: &~& < > || ( ) || And lots of hugs from us all... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM If you allow the tears to do their work, you will keep some good things from this, Firecat. Just stay close to people who can let you cry with a sense of safety and not being alone and you will see what I mean. A lot of us are with you. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: annamill Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:30 AM I think I can feel that hurt, Firecat. I hope you'll be alright. I think it may something you're not to forget too soon. As Mum says, [[[[[[[[HUGS]]]]]]]]] Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Mrs.Duck Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:20 AM {{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: GUEST,Firecat in Berlin Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:10 AM Well, I've been and it was just as horrible as I imagined. Even though I grounded myself, I still wasn't able to stay calm. I actually heard people caling me even though there was no one around. I ended up leaving early but I wasn't the only one. Three other girls left early too. The only reason I left was because I was in floods of tears. Even though you were allowed to take photos inside the camp, I didn't want to because I just want to forget the experience now and if anybody offers me the chance again I would definitely refuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Mrs.Duck Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:02 AM Take care Kate I'll be thinking of you but go easy on yourself. Micca I can only imagine how dreadfully moving it must be to go into these camps but I'm afraid I would never allow myself to feel chastened by it. I never fail to be sickened by some of the things human (?) beings did and still do to eachother but I could never be responsible whether through action or inaction for such atrocities and therefore have no need to feel any guilt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: GUEST,Firecat in Berlin Date: 10 Apr 01 - 02:29 AM Well, I've decided. I'm going to go. I've got some great friends who are going to keep a eye on me, as is one of the tutors apparently, so I should be OK. Thanks to everyone who's posted, either for or against me going, but I think it's best if I go (Added to which I don't want to be the only one that doesn't!!) If I can get on the Net later I'll post and say what it was like, but they've arranged a theatre trip tonight and I've got a ticket so you might have to wait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Sorcha Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:50 PM I understand Micca's "chastened", because even though I was not alive at the time, I feel chastened for all of humanity's behavior, for this and other crimes. I can't remember who said it, but someone important said ref. the Holocaust: "I expected to hear a roar from the Vatican. What did I hear? Silence." of something to that effect. We should all feel chastened when presented with horrors of this magnitude. Man's inhumanity to man is immeasurable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Micca Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:44 PM It is hard to explain the effect that that relatively small compound, with its electric fences and high walls in a relatively affluent area had on me and my companion. We went there out of respect, of course, and to fill in gaps in our knowledge, and emerged with a real sense of what had happened, and how the inmates had been "spirited away" into the void by the Nacht und nebel (night and fog) methods of the state, and that they had NO communication with the outside at all, anyone even looking over the wall from outside was taken in and given a going over as a warning. Chastened when we came face to face with what one man could do to another..and what a state could do to men...and the silence of the place..the eerie silence, no bird song, nothing... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Mrs.Duck Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:16 PM Why chastened Micca? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Micca Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:10 PM Mrs D, I disagree... the reality is so much more compelling than any written account, I went to Dachau years ago, I am fairly familiar( more so than many) having read widely from an early age about the period and was chastened and nmoved by being there and seeing the site, and feeling the presences, that NO one can describe to you... and I learned 2 facts there that I hadnt, and wouldnt have known, except by going there 1 was it was established 3 months after Hitler came to power 2 that the last inmates only left(they had no where else to go) in 1964!!!! I would say, go , see for yourself Firecat...and then you will know things that are not available except first hand.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Mrs.Duck Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM I;m afraid I disagree with people who think we should go and look at these places. I find it ghoulish and would not encourage anyone to go. I think what happened in Nazi germany was unforgivable but do not need to witness anything to know that. I would rather fight to ensure that such a thing can not happen again. At the end of the day Kate it's your decision but if I were you I would not go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: magician Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:52 PM hikat. you know i love you and i'll be wiyh you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Sorcha Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM Just a few more thoughts here... The people who died there NEED you/me/us to go.......the point is not "enjoying" it.....the point is connecting and remembering. Bawl your way through it if you need/have to, I'm sure you will not be the first to do so.
My mother went to Germany/Berlin when my brother was stationed there, and he offered to take her to Auchwitchz. She declined. I berated. She said "I couldn't". I said " You have to." She didn't. The whole point is for NO ONE to ever forget.......
"What we forget, we are doomed to repeat". The Holocaust will be less and less personal as time marches on, but for those who have "seen", it will remain personal, and perhaps more so for their children.
As a case in point, how many of us feel true Horror about the Children's Crusade? or the Inquisiton? the Burning Times? It's history now, and devoid of emotion.
We owe it to ourselves to keep the emotion alive as long as we can............that's why it's important for our young people to go to these places and feel what is left behind. Be brave, firecat. It will hurt, but it will heal too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: JeZeBeL Date: 09 Apr 01 - 02:59 PM Honestly Firecat, you will have a lot of people there with you mentally aswell as physically, I know ur mum n dad n his lordship will be with you and I will too....you'll be fine, god who am I to talk, I panic when I have a glass explode!! The best thing you can do is not think about it too much tonight, it will only promote a bad nights sleep and then you will feel like crap tomorrow. Go out and have a drink or a meal with your friends. As your mum said ground yourself before you go. Thats something I have to remember to do more often!! Emma xx P.S - How are your wrists after your conversation with daffydd, I can't spell it, the other day. Ur mum n him are really cheeky when they get together aint they. Bet u'll never speak to him on the fone again!! Take care!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: mousethief Date: 09 Apr 01 - 01:26 PM Fear of feeling negative emotions is the first step in the path to lifelong depression. Better to feel 'em than to squelch 'em.
One who has done both, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Tig Date: 09 Apr 01 - 12:28 PM Honest we think you'll survive it. otherwise I would have filled in the line saying we didn't want you to go. Just go with the flow and don't forget to ground yourself first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: GUEST,Firecat in Berlin Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM It#s getting closer!!!! Any more catters wanting to give advice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: GUEST,Firecat in Berlin Date: 08 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM "It" obviuosly being the Net!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: GUEST,Firecat in Berlin! Date: 08 Apr 01 - 12:51 PM Thanks to everybody who's posted. I went to the house where the agreement to eliminate the Jews was arranged today. There' a permanent exhibition there now, and the scenes there were bad enough. I'm definitely not looking forward to Sachsenhausen now!! Luckily I've got people who I can trust with me. One of my friends, Gareth, says he'll look after me so I should be OK. I'm at the hotel at the moment so if I can get on it on Tuesday I'll tell you what it was like, otherwise you#ll have to wait until I get back to England. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: annamill Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:40 PM Unexpected emotions surprised me when I went to see the Kennedy brothers at Arlington in Wash. DC. I was fine and there I was, walking up to their graves and all of a sudden all the feelings I had at their deaths surged over me and there I was, a grown woman, sobbing over the travisty! Boy, was I surprised! Was I sorry I had gone? No. The feelings that I had supressed never went back to wherever they had been again. My eyes still tear at the thought of the graves. I guess I'm just an emotional person and I feel to strongly, other's pain. The point, emotions may surprise you. Just go with it and be glad you are able to feel. Many cannot. I wish you the best, and remember that you have many thoughts of kindness with you from your Mudcat friends. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:08 AM Thanks annamill. I think I'm going to go but I might change my mind as it gets nearer. Wish me luck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: annamill Date: 04 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM You're in college! If I ever tried to tell my son what he could and could not do, he'd laugh, then if I insisted. He would very quietly put out "MOM!". The good thing is, he does have a good head for what's good for him and so far he has been right. If you are an empathtic person and the pain hurts you, I'd consider making up my own mind if I were you. I'm the same way and it is the main reason I didn't go into the medical or any other painful occupation. Just couldn't handle it. It should be your decision! Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Tig Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:40 PM We don't expect her to enjoy the camp but feel that this is an opportunity to learn not only what happened there but also to learn about how to cope with herself. This is the person who used to panic on public transport because of the auras she could see around others! Luckily she's learned to block those unless it is necessary for her to 'see'. Now she needs to expand her horizons. I'll be with her mentally all the way, even if not physically. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: mousethief Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:23 PM Firecat, I can't really add anything to what's already been said, but I do hope you will come back and tell us all about what you saw, and heard, and felt. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Ebbie Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM Firecat, in my opinion, if that really is a past life scene for you, it strikes me how very significant it is that you are already 'back'. Looking for great things from you, child. In that sense, it seems that a visit back can only help spark and solidify your current mission. I agree with kat- protect yourself and go. I don't think you'll regret it. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: RichM Date: 03 Apr 01 - 08:35 AM Firecat, you are already aware of what was done there. You don't need to go, particularly if you are sensitive enough to dream about it in advance. Deciding to do something else that day does NOT mean disrespect.
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Gervase Date: 03 Apr 01 - 07:32 AM Firecat; however anxious you think you'll feel, you owe it to yourself, your grandchildren and to all those denied the chance of every having grandchildren to go there. As said above, we all need to bear witness to mankind's enormities. I remember going to Majdenek a few years back and, yes, it was traumatic - with the real horror being in the detail. But it was a salutary wake-up call at a time when "the final solution" was being replaced in the lexicon of evil by "ethnic cleansing". You won't enjoy it, but it will be a rite of passage for you. Remember - "Only Connect"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: katlaughing Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM You can mentally prepare by not building it up with any fear the dreams may bring up; instead surround it and you with a ball of white light of protection. Say a prayer or meditation of thanksgiving that all are at peace, or at least yourself, and protected during this journey "back." It sometimes helps to write a letter to whomever or whatever you might be feeling: yourself in a past life, the souls of those who died there, your higher self, asking for protection, offering forgiveness, blessing all. Then burn the letter or tuck it away in a place yoou consider sacred. I think the others are right. It is better you confront this, fully aware, without psyching yourself out too much. Is there a friend going whom you can confide in who could stay close by with you and offer support? Try writing about the dream, first, verbalising all of the fears and memories you may think you have. All of these things will act as a release, so that you can let go of the fear, trauma, etc. It is part of your soul growth, at least from my experience. Do please let us know how it goes and send me a PM if there is anything I can do to help. I've quite a bit of experience in helping with past lives. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:11 AM Ok, Sledge, even thugh I'm not that sure I agree, I've taken that advice on board. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: sledge Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:08 AM In the face of such a monstous evil, to walk in the footsteps of those who were murdered is probably the best witness you can keep. Cheers Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Firecat Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:03 AM Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: Hollowfox Date: 28 Mar 01 - 09:43 AM If you don't go, your thoughts on how bad the visit might have been will probably be worse than any memories of the experience. If you do end up going, instead of blocking or sensing (I think of these as shutdown and absorbing on the emotional/spiritual level in this instance), how about reversing the direction and radiate (for lack of a better verb) thoughts of sympathy and caring? Folkloricly speaking *g*, this should help "lay the ghosts" , both for you and for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Exploration! From: IanC Date: 28 Mar 01 - 06:34 AM Firecat Glad you're going to go. I went to Dachau when I was in Munich in December. I didn't want to go and I didn't enjoy it, but it's given me a new perspective and it was worthwhile.
Best regards |