BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'

Subject: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:14 PM

... yes, as in "Tell her/him to make me a cambric shirt". It has come to my attention that just about everybody who came after Simon & Garfunkel pronounces the word with a short "a", as in "bag". Well, you're wrong! It's properly pronounced with a long "a" -- as in "Cambridge", just in case anyone wants to tell me the rule for a vowel followed by two consonants.

I invite comments from the floor.

Steve

P.S. You could always check your dictionary -- or would that spoil the fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:20 PM

So how come the river that the bridge is over is called the Cam (short a), eh?

If a vowel followed by two consonents is pronounced as short - well how do you pronounce consonent?

And I'm never wrong! (Sometimes people misunderstand me, though.) Hehehe.

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:23 PM

How stupid of me. I thought it was pronounced like it was spelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:36 PM

Well, well! (...putting my dictionary back on the shelf)

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:55 PM

And another thing, Steve - some of us know only too well where that nice Mr Simon got that song from!

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: nutty
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:58 PM

Its a Yorkshire song so the "a" is pronounced as a flat vowel( all yorkshire vowels are flat) so "cambric" is cam - brick not as Steve suggests Came - brick

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Bert
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:06 PM

camber, Camberwell, camping, Camden Town....

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM

It's called cambric 'cos it comes from Cambrai. Mind you, we don't do so well in pronouncing denim (which comes from Nimes - de Nimes). I reckon you can pronounce it anyway you want. Try it out next time you're shopping in a gentlemen's outfitters (suits you, Sir) or a trendy boutique ('ere 'ave we got any cambric shirts, Tracey?).

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Morticia
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Well in popular usage is the short a pronunciation; whether the song or the material itself is under discussion...I've never heard anyone say Camebric. Mind you, I seldon hear people say butter or water, ( they say bu'er or wa'er) but that doesn't make it right I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Bert
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:39 PM

An, I orlwais fort i' was bu'u aw wa'u

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Hawker
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:45 PM

So have the Cornish been pronouncing Camborne wrong?
as in Cam born when I now understand it should be Came born! OOO Er! LOL
Lucy P.S. How does one say scone?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Morticia
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 02:43 PM

This one says it with a short o, to rhyme with gone but it's regional I think .What about mongrel? First syllable pronounced as o or u?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 02:58 PM

Mahngrel

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:02 PM

Now I find out, 20 years after I quit singing that particular song...(sigh)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:07 PM

Being born and bred in Yorkshire, there is no such thing as a long "A" it is always pronounced "short" as in 'addock (a battered fish), 'alibut (a fish which isn't usually battered) 'alifax (a nearby town), which can be contrasted with the short U as in 'ull (where Les comes from)
I hope that you are now enlightened!
Quack!
Geoff the Duck

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM

Cam off it Parkie!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:40 PM

scOHnes...not scAHnes....but I'm from Kansas

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:27 PM

Ok, I say "kam'brik", "skawhn", & "mawn'grul"---but I said Cull'oden for years before I learned it was Cull-aw'den. How about "chambary"? Is it related to cambric?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:13 PM

'chalcedony' anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:26 PM

shall-se-do'-nee is what my rock shop person says......

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:31 PM

I say it with the hard CH. Both Earendil & The Mariner in "Errantry" had chalcedony in the helms.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM

Any way you say it, it is a neat stone........includes "blood stone"...a beautiful green with red inclusions.....cool stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 11:57 PM

According to both Merriam Webster and the Oxford English Dictionary, cambric is pronounced came'-brick. Common usage generally comes to the fore and I suspect cam-bric will be added as an alternate before long. Look at what happened to cov-ert, now generally pronounced co-vert (which makes no sense). At least cambric comes from a Flemish word which begins "Kam-." The academic bent is prevalent in the Oxford Dictionary, and also in the Merriam Webster, but the latter has more alternates from other parts of the British Islands and the USA and Canada. The Oxford, in current editions, is going the same way (perhaps they will no longer call serviette vulgar usage, since most middle class English and many Canadians use the word).

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:02 AM

Steve, there's probably only Mr Red and me that pronounce things the same as thee (Rana probably sounds Canadian by now!). Herself always scores a point when I lapse into a southern long "a" as in bath, but I think I'll be saying "garridge" for garage to my grave!
Tara each (off on hols in an hour!)
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Julie B
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:29 AM

I agree with Dicho. It's common usage that counts. If I'm comfortable singing 'cam-bric' (as opposed to came-bric) and I know my audience will be happy to hear it that way, then that's the way to sing it. If I were singing it to an audience where most folk thought 'came-bric' was the normal pronunciation, I'd probably do it that way. Language has never been, and will never be, set in stone. We can use it to either bond with others or alienate them. If I sing came-bric, most of the audience will be thinking "poor woman... nice song, but a pity she doesn't even know how to pronounce 'cam-bric'!" and if I pedantically insist on explaining that MY pronunciation is the only correct one, before/after the song, then audience alienation is probably assured!

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:40 AM

Cambric sounds French to me anyway - should probably be pronounced 'Cahmbree'!

Scone rhymes with gone around here. I have been told it should be pronounced as in the town in Scotland from where the said delicacy came - ie. Scone, pronounced in best Scottish style, scoon! I dunno if that is right or not though.

Anyway, must go. Got a job to do on my cameshaft....

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Hyperabid
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 06:41 AM

I believe the English for comes from the Flemish Kamerijk which is the Flemish form of Cambrai...(We had a long alliance with the Dutch and other lowlanders during the 16th century whilst the Spanish and Portugese were busy telling people that all protestants needed a petrol enema).

Whilst I would not pretend to understand lowland languages most of the vowel sounds are short - which would seem to fit the common usage of the word ion the UK.

Hyper

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:39 AM

I think the point is that the word isn't in common usage any more! When it was, it would have been pronounced "properly"; I guess that Martin Carthy (it was him, wasn't it?) wasn't familiar with the word before he learned the song. Maybe we can get him to tell us? I can't rememer how the late Dave Philips used to pronounce it; he always claimed that Paul Simon pinched the song from him at the Jug O'Punch before he got famous.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:43 AM

That's EYe-gore, Dr Frankensteen

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:00 PM

Well, now, it seems to me that if you go by the common English pronunciation of other French- or Flemish-derived names (Cholmondeley, for instance)....the correct pronunciation of "cambric" would have to be "CAR". Or maybe, for those who want to use the long A, "CAKE".

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Peg
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:32 PM

Mark: LOL!!!!! love it.

I learned it "came-brick."

There is not all that much difference when you're singing it after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 01:08 AM

People in SE England usually pronounce scone to rhyme with cone or bone. People further north usually pronounce it scon to thryme with gone.

And people in Devon serve them with 'clotted cream', a delicacy rarely found in The USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 04:46 AM

I've said camm-brick all my life, and worn the stuff too; I say sconn, and yumm them up with lashings of fresh country butter and raspberry jam. Mmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 07:01 AM

I've always said scone to rhyme with bun, which is how my mother said it. But I've never met antyone else who said it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Greyeyes
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:14 PM

It is of course pronounced scon, and the clotted cream should be spread on before the jam.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:47 AM

We had the scawn discussion before!

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 10:14 AM

okay word lovers how do you pronounce "capo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:45 PM

"Capo" is pronounced Kaw-poh, both the music thing-a-ma-bobby and the mafia head. Doesn't anyone use a decent dictionary anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:56 PM

Dicho, most people that I know say CAY-po. It may supposed to be pronounced Kaw-po but that ain't the way that I learned it. I thought it a very similar situation with cambric. I have also heard chalcedony pronounced chalSEdonee, kalKEdonee. and kalSEdonee, all from geographers. Correct pronunciation is a flexible term.

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 07:25 PM

kappo

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 07:33 PM

For the guitar clamp, I say kaa-po. For the mafia Don or D.C. al Capo, I say khah-po......don't know why. I know the latter two are Italian, is a guitar capo from the Italian also?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:01 PM

In my earlier note I indicated, in essence, that pronounciation in English as she is spoke differs from recommended dictionary usage for many words. Kaw-poh is given in both the OED and Merriam Webster for ca-po. Cap-po reminds me of the recent change in pronounciation of covert, from cov-ert to co-vert, an example I gave. A funny one here in Canada is niche. This word was dragged into English by Randall Cotgrave in 1611 with the pronounciation nitch (still in the OED) from Italian nicchia, and populariz(s)ed through a hit play (1614) by Ben Jonson. Americans generally say nish. Canadians often say neesh, trying to sound French. The word commonly is used in English to indicate a person's position or function, a meaning not envisioned by the originator, nor members of the French Academy. Everything changes, especially in an agglomerative language such as (like) English. In the local paper today is a letter from a teacher objecting to the verb "fax." She has been out-of-date since 1940-something. But already "Email" is replacing fax. By the way, what was the word that started this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen in Kona
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 12:29 AM

I say "nitch", and the last I looked I was still an American. But then again, I also eat ghoti.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 03:02 AM

How about those Boston Seltics, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 05:43 AM

Bit of controversy eh? Ah - that reminds me. When did controversy change from con-TROV-ersy, like when I was at school to CONTRA-versy like the UK newsreaders saw now?

Cheers (NOT said like chairs)

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:11 AM

Where I'm from covert is pronnounce kuvva, as in "...away to the coverts to seek for a hare".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: mkebenn
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:36 AM

Dave, we don't need to hear about your came-shaft. Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:57 PM

Mr Cohen - I presume that you mean ghoti - pronounced "FISH".

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM

Mais bien sur, mon cher canard!

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 11:55 PM

Where else but the Mudcat would there be 50 postings about the pronunciation of an obsolete word (cambric) that nobody pronounces anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:51 AM

There's a town (or village? Correct me, please!) near Wolverhampton called Coven, pr. COE-ven where I come from, but I don't know how the natives say it. My home town Walsall is pr. WORE-sl at home, but WALL-SALL (rhymes with "wall", both syllables equally weighted) by foreigners, and nmy daughter's chap lives in Rugely, pr. RUDGE-lee by natives, REWDGE-lee by incomers and ROUGE-lee (to rhyme with the French "rouge") by people who say "Eye-BEETH-a", and presumably can't be expected to know any better.

Over to you, Mr Red!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Trevor
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:12 AM

Worrow Steve,

I'm from Smerrick originally but I live near Shoesbury now, in a village called Ratchup, which is spelt Ratlinghope.

I thought 'fish' was spelt g-h-o-t-i-o

Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of 'cambric'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:24 AM

Yo bay wrung, aer kid!