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Origins: Castle of Dromore

DigiTrad:
CASTLE OF DROMORE


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Castle of Dromore (43)
Tune Add:The Castle of Dromore (9)
Lyr Req: The Castle of Dromore (21)


Big Tim 27 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM
Wolfgang 27 Jul 01 - 02:19 PM
Mrrzy 27 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM
Malcolm Douglas 27 Jul 01 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,workshy@fsnet.co.uk 27 Jul 01 - 05:05 PM
Malcolm Douglas 27 Jul 01 - 05:16 PM
John Moulden 27 Jul 01 - 07:17 PM
Barry T 27 Jul 01 - 11:03 PM
Big Tim 28 Jul 01 - 02:19 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Jul 01 - 08:19 PM
Alice 28 Jul 01 - 10:45 PM
John Moulden 29 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM
ard mhacha 29 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM
Big Tim 29 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM
ard mhacha 29 Jul 01 - 04:54 PM
Charcloth 30 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM
Big Tim 30 Jul 01 - 02:11 PM
John Moulden 30 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM
John Moulden 31 Jul 01 - 10:26 AM
Big Tim 31 Jul 01 - 01:10 PM
John Moulden 31 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM
Wolfgang 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 AM
Big Tim 01 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM
Wolfgang 01 Aug 01 - 02:18 PM
mg 01 Aug 01 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,jim 01 Aug 01 - 10:00 PM
ard mhacha 02 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Larry O'Toole 02 Aug 01 - 10:11 PM
masato sakurai 15 Nov 02 - 10:22 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Nov 02 - 10:58 PM
SussexCarole 20 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM
Jeanie 20 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM
Declan 21 Nov 02 - 08:28 AM
dermod in salisbury 22 Nov 02 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,JimI 23 Nov 02 - 07:26 AM
Big Tim 23 Nov 02 - 04:15 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Nov 02 - 05:51 PM
BC 23 Nov 02 - 07:31 PM
masato sakurai 23 Nov 02 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,An Púca 16 Nov 03 - 08:13 PM
Stewie 16 Nov 03 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,pat mcdonnell dromore tyrone 06 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,JimI 05 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,CARATOM 20 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Mindie Burgoyne 26 Mar 08 - 12:41 PM
GUEST 24 Mar 12 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Charles Friesen 23 Jul 12 - 10:55 PM
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Subject: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM

Can anyone provide info on the origins of this song. When written and by whom. And which Dromore is it? Down or Kerry, or somewhere else?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:19 PM

This tourist travel site claims it for Kerry without further proof.

The ballad index knows of no author but says that there is also an Irish version and that it is not known whether the English or the Irish version came first.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM

I'd like to see more info, too. This is one of my twins' favorite lullabies... they call it Hushabye Lu, but still.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 04:48 PM

I think you may inadvertently have linked to the entire Ballad Index, Wolfgang!  This is a bit easier:  Traditional Ballad Index:

Castle of Dromore, The (Caislean Droim an Oir)

This song was written by Harold Boulton, to an existing tune called My Wife is Sick  (No. 509 in The Complete Collection of Irish Music, Stanford-Petrie, 1903-5).  Sir Harold (1859-1935) was also responsible, amongst many other things, for the words of The Skye Boat Song and the melody nowadays used for The Lyke Wake Dirge.

Boulton's text, slightly altered, is in the DT:  CASTLE OF DROMORE, and the tune is here:  Mus add. Castle of Dromore  (abc and miditext formats) and also at  The Mudcat Midi Pages:

Castle of Dromore

The Clancy Brothers recorded the song as  October Winds,  again with a slightly altered text.  The entry at Andrew Kuntz's  The Fiddler's Companion  quotes what is described as "an 18th century song" (identical but for the substitution of a pháisde bán a stór for my dearest treasure store) as Boulton's source, but unless I have missed it, gives no provenance of any kind for this earlier song, if such it be.  It is perfectly possible that he may have re-worked an older lyric; this was common practice at the time.  I'd be interested in any concrete information anyone might be able to add on that.

There are a number of places called Dromore or Drumore, including one in Argyll.  See also this earlier discussion:  Castle of Dromore.


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Subject: Lyr Add: OCTOBER WINDS (Clancy Brothers)
From: GUEST,workshy@fsnet.co.uk
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 05:05 PM

From the 1964 Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem songbook, the song is called "OCTOBER WINDS"

The October winds lament around the castle of Dromore,
Yet peace is in her lofty halls my loving treasure store,
Though autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you,
Sing hush-a-by loo la loo la lan, sing hush-a-by loo la loo.

Bring no ill will to hinder us, my helpless babe and me
Dread spirit of the Blackwater, Clan Owens wild banshee
And Holy Mary pitying us in heaven for grace does sue.
Sing hush-a-by loo la loo la lan, sing hush-a-by loo la loo.

Take time to grow my ray of hope in the garden of Dramore,
Take heed young eaglet till your wings are feathered fit to sore,
A little rest and then the world is full of work to do,
Sing hush-a-by loo la loo la lan, sing hush-a-by loo la loo.

Hope this helps,
Workshy

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 14-Oct-02.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 05:16 PM

I put a link to that one just above; I should have made it more obvious that was what it was.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: John Moulden
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:17 PM

I have always assumed that this is the castle of Dromore in County Tyrone - between Omagh and Enniskillen (which is in Fermanagh. There certainly is a ruined castle which overlooks the village. There are, however, other Dromores, one in Co Down, near Banbridge between Belfast and Newry, and presumably one in Kerry. Which one Harold Boulton had in mind may not be known - does anyone have biographical knowledge?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Barry T
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:03 PM

This is the most definitive information I have read on the tune. Thank you!

As for location, I think the reference to the Blackwater River in the lyrics suggests the Kerry location. Though there are about half a dozen Dromore Castles and a few Blackwater Rivers, this is the only Dromore castle situated on a river called Blackwater. Not proof, but evidence.

Thanks to the Mudcat I was introduced to this song. It became and remains one of my favourites. My multi-track midi sequence is here.

Question for y'all: What recording of the song would you recommend? The one I've seen mentioned most often is that by Bok, Muir and Trickett.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:19 AM

Thanks folks, especially Malcolm,that really is most interesting and helpful. Of course there is a River Blackwater in the North as well, not too far from Dromore in Down. And what about "Clan Owen's wild banshee", would this suggest a Northern location, Tyrone (Tir Owen, "Owen's country")?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 08:19 PM

Much appreciated info - thanks all.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Alice
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 10:45 PM

Barry T, the recording of the song I like is the Clancy Brothers'. That is probably because I grew up listening to their version, so it seems imprinted on my childhood memories.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: John Moulden
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM

There are rather more Blackwater Rivers in Ireland than has been suggested above - five in Ulster alone - Antrim, Armagh, Tyrone, (London)Derry and one in Belfast. Looking at the Tyrone one on the OS map it's not that near the Tyrone Dromore - but what about Clan Owen's wild banshee? What's it doing outside Owen's country of Tir Eoghan?

As I said, what we need to know is what was in Harold Boulton's imagination - a good guide to that would be what was in his experience - where did he live? I haven't access to a biographical dictionary at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM

John Boulton is right trying to locate the geographical location of this song will always be a matter of opinion. Can you imagine the same future controversy when someone tries to figure out that mighty river in "Gloccha Marra", "does it still flow down from Killybegs [Donegal] Kilcarry and Kildare,makes the Shannon look like a trickle. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

Ard, if we could trace the evidence it wouldn't have to be a matter of opinion. There must be something on this guy Boulton tho he isn't in any of the three of my dictionaries of Irish biography. Was probably English, does anyone have access to the DNB (Dict of Nat biog)?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 04:54 PM

Big Tim, I have seen the location of the song discussed a number of years ago in "Irelands Own" and no one could come up with an exact location, and as John Boulton pointed out that Tyrone Banshee had travelled a long way.Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Charcloth
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM

I have both the Clancy brothers version & the Corries I Greatly prefer the Corries vesion. Which is on their Flower of Scotland C.D. In the Corries song book Vol. 2 It Says Castle Dromore is near Kenmare Co. Kerry Ireland & the Blackwater is a river that flows by the castle. It is also listed as a traditional tune & traditional lyrics. but most of this has aleady been said


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:11 PM

Bridie Gallagher has also recorded the song, not a great version but with the inherent soul element of Bridie's voice still well worth listening to. Thanks for the tip about the Corries' version, this is a group that I usually ignore but I guess it's worth a listen.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: John Moulden
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM

Nothing the Clancys or their editors say about any song has any great authority in my eyes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: John Moulden
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 10:26 AM

A bit about Harold Boulton: later Sir Harold E Boulton, editor of many song compilations for which he provided some song words - including "Songs of the North" and "Songs of the Four Nations." He was author of such songs as "The Skye boat song" and "The Lough Tay boat song" which were set to arrangements of traditional Scottish tunes.

So far my inquiries give no hint as to when or under what circumstances he wrote "The castle of Dromore" - but his being almost a professonal song writer indicates that his songs don't have to be about any place he knew at all.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 01:10 PM

Thanks John: The Loch Tay Boat Song is a georgeous piece. If you trace any more on Dromore or Boulton perhaps you would be good enough to post it even after this thread has gone. Did you ever get round to researching Roddy McCorley in Ballymena?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: John Moulden
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM

Yes to Roddy McCorley, there's a lot on it in the Local Studies file in the Library. All mixed up with a guy called Archer who was executed earlier in 1800 than McCorley. I used part of it in a talk I gave in 1998 called "Northern Heroes of the '98. However, this is not the thread to say any more


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:54 AM

Malcolm,

I linked to the entire ballad index because I didn't know better. Now I do, thanks.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM

Wolfgang, Malcolm, is it possible to check that Ballad Index for individual songs without having to scroll down the whole thing alphabetically? Thanks.

John, if you recall I posted quite a lot about Roddy, Archer, etc some months ago. I just wondered if you had any more than that, eg Roddy's date, or year of birth, his religion, and his true role in the rebellion (hero or villain, or ultimately, both)?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 02:18 PM

Yes, Tim, it is possible. I proudly teach now something which I have learned only this morning in this thread. Go to Malcolm's first link and you'll have a search page. Enter e.g. 'Dromore' and you'll see how much better that is than my link to the whole long page.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: mg
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 02:23 PM

I saw an Irish Rovers special long ago where they went to what I thought was the castle..or they thought was the castle, and it was in Northern Ireland if my memory is correct. mg


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 10:00 PM

The northern connection as asserted by Tim connects "Clan Owen" with Tyrone. The Tyrone connection is more likely to Owen O'Neill and Owen O'Donnell, Lords in that area in the 16th 17th centuries. At least one of them marched to Kinsale and took part in the Flight of the Earls.

Clan Owen is quite reasonably situated in the South and may derive from Owen Roe O'Sullivan .

All this from my wives remembrances of her history lessons.

The Castle of Dromore at Kenmare is on the Blackwater and was built in the very late 19th century by a tennis player (who's name escapes me)and who was the only Irishman to win the men's singles at Wimbledon (in about 1893 or thereabouts)

Just because it is a fairly recent castle does not mean it could not be the castle of the song. Has anyone thought of checking any connection between Boulton and the castle's builder? My son will be at Dromore next week and I have asked him to send me any info he can get

Jim


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM

To confuse matters even more, I have heard one of the verses include the following, " The Bann may flood its winding banks near the Castle of Dromore, But no harm shall come between my babe and my hearts core". I have heard this sung in the north of Ireland. There are the upper and lower Banns but only in the North. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,Larry O'Toole
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 10:11 PM

Paul Robeson, the African-American actor/singer for whom "Old Man River" was written, did a wonderful bass version of this song many years ago (as well as a version of the Skye Boat Song). It is the best version that I have heard over the years and well worth a listen if you can find it.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CASTLE OF DROMORE (Boulton & Irish)
From: masato sakurai
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:22 PM

From Songs of the Four Nations, 2nd ed., edited by Harold Boulton (J.B. Cramer, 1892, 215-220; with music):

   THE CASTLE OF DROMORE
      (Irish Lullaby)
   Englsih words by Harold Boulton
   Irish translation by Dr. Douglas Hyde
   Old Irish Air
   Arranged by Arthur Somervell

October winds lament around the Castle of Dromore,
But peace is in her lofty halls, *mo páiste veg asthore;
Though autumn leaves may droop and die, a bud of spring are you--
Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo.

Bring no ill-will to hinder us--my helpless babe and me,
Dread spirits all of the Blackwater, Clan **Eoghan's wild banshee;
For Holy Mary, pitying us, in heaven for grace doth sue--
Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo.

Take time to thrive, my rose of hope, in the garden of Dromore;
Take heed, young eaglet, till your wings have feathered fit to soar.
A little rest, and then the world is full of work to do--
Sing hushabye lullaloo lo lan, sing hushaby lullaloo.

*Literally, "Little child, my treasure."
**Eoghan = Owen.

CAISLEÁN AN DROMA-MHÓIR

Tá gaotha an gheimhridh sgallta fuar, thart thimchioll an Drom'-mhóir,
Acht ann sna alla ta siothchán, mo phaisde beag astor,
Ta gach sean-duilleog dul air crith, acht is og an beannglan thu,
Seinnfimid lóithín ló ló lán, lóithín a's lul la lú.

Nár thig aon droch-rud idir mé's mo naoidheanán gan bhrón,
Nar thig aon tais ó'n Abhainn Mhóir na Bean-sidhe Chloinne Eoghain,
Tá Muire Máthair ós ár g-cionn ag iarradh grása duinn;
Seinnfimid lóithín ló ló lán, lóithín a's lul la lú.

A Róis mo chroídhe, a Slaithín ur a's gharrha an Drom'-mhóir,
Bí ag fás go mbeídh gach cleite beag mar sgiathán iolair mhóir,
Agus léim ann sin air fad an t-saoghail, oibrigh a's saothraigh clú;
Seinnfimid lóithín ló ló lán, lóithín a's lul la lú.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:58 PM

Now, that's interesting. The implication from that note seems to be that Boulton's English lyric was translated into Irish Gaelic by Hyde, which might explain why there seems to be no trace of an "18th century (Gaelic) original" as suggested -without evidence- at The Fiddler's Companion, as I mentioned earlier. Has anyone else come across further information since we began to discuss this one?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: SussexCarole
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM

This is the song of the O'Mahony clan - possibly more info if you look into the history around Dunloe Dan       Carole


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Jeanie
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 03:22 PM

More information and links on the excellent Contemplator website:
http://www.contemplator.com/folk2/dromore.html

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Declan
Date: 21 Nov 02 - 08:28 AM

This song was recorded sung by Terence O Reilly on the Suantrai album (John Canny(Box) Kevin Carey (Fiddle) & Terence O Reilly (Guitar/Vocals)) issued in late 2001.

The notes say taht the song was written for the high king of Ireland ! and that the Castle is in County Down. I doubt if either of these is said with any great authority to back it up.

By coincidence the Lonesome Robin song which is featured on another thread at the moment is also featured on this album. There are some lovely tunes on this CD also and very well played too.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:26 AM

I once looked around Dromore in County Down on a spring Sunday afternoon. There is no castle that I could see, only a ruined stone tower in one of the narrow streets. I don't think anyone would be moved to song by it. But I did have a musical experience of sorts. I stopped to rest on a bench in the main square. The town seemed totally deserted and I was the only person there. Suddenly, a van drew up on the opposite side of the square. Several people got out. After a milling about for a few minutes, began singing hymns and having an open air prayer meeting. While this was in progress, one of themwalked across to where I, the sole spectator, was sitting. Excuse me, he said politely, are you saved?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,JimI
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:26 AM

I am now pretty sure now that the Castle of Dromore IS the one at Blackwater Bridge near Kenmare on the ring of Kerry.

There are records extant of a visit by Boulton to the family there and it is said (though this is not substantiated) that he wrote the song for the family as a thankyou after his visit.

I thought the castle had been built in the 1890's by a tennis player but I was wrong. Apparently it was built in the mid 1800's (c. 1840 or so) by a local Protestant family. There is still a chapel there.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:15 PM

If it can be proved that Boulton visited the Kerry Dromore Castle, I'd take that as very important, if not conclusive. What are the "records extant"?

Anyone got access to one of those big books on Irish castles? There may be some clues there.

Any further thoughts on "Clan Owen", which seems to place the song in Tyrone? Personally, I suspect this may not be all that relevant as Boulton was probably not too fussy about the accuracy of the historical and cultural details (as in "Over the Sea to Skye", etc).

I think he was out to create a mood, essentially artificial, and the song, though extremely effective, can be discounted as in any way culturally Irish. It wasn't written by one of the ancient bards. Anyone else prepared to stick their neck out?!


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 05:51 PM

Coincidentally, I came across the following, from an article by Hugh J. Dawson which originally appeared in the James Joyce Quarterly 25:3 (Spring 1988). The quote is from Thomas McGreevy, a friend of James Joyce:

Thomas McGreevy and Joyce

"Recently one of the interpreters of Finnegans Wake associated the sentence "Silence is in our faustic halls" with The Castle of Dromore (which I take to be the now well-known song, the words of which are translated from the Irish of Dr. Hyde). But I wonder whether The Castle of Dromore was well-known or known at all in the Dublin of Joyce about the first decade of this century. Certainly I never heard Joyce or any member of his family (all of whom sang or lilted Irish songs about the house like the rest of us) refer to it or sing, or even lilt, it. So I think the derivation of "Silence is in our faustic halls is more likely to be from Moore's "Silence is in our festive halls" than the Hyde translator's more remote "But peace reigns in her lofty halls."

If we are to accept the reference in Songs of the Four Nations, quoted above by Masato (there seems to be no reason why we shouldn't), then it would seem that McGreevy was in error in assuming Boulton's text to be a translation from Hyde's Irish; the reverse appears to be the case. This snippet doesn't really take us any further, but I'd best mention it now, in case it returns to haunt us. Hyde and Boulton were contemporaries, Boulton being three years the elder.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: BC
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:31 PM

My mother came from County Cork, north of Cork City. She was a native Irish speaker and in the 1950's I often heard her sing the Castle of Dromore in the gaelic.

She was not widely travelled, so it is likely that the song was known around Cork at the time she lived there (from 1908 to about 1926). This might support the proposal that the song comes from nearby ...

My geography is not great. Which of the suggested sites is near Cork?


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: masato sakurai
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 07:34 PM

Bibliographic information from the title page of the book (mine is a signed copy by Boulton):

Second Edition.
SONGS OF THE FOUR NATIONS.
A Collection of Old Songs of the People of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, For the most part never before published with complete Words and Accompaniments.
Edited by HAROLD BOULTON,
With Traditional Words or Original Poems and Translations by Nicholas Bennet, Harold Boulton, Rev. Owen Davies (Eos Llechyd), F.A. Fahy, A.P. Graves, Dr. Douglas Hyde and G.M. Probert.
The Music Arranged by ARTHUR SOMERVELL.
J.B. Cramer & Co., 201, Regent Street, London.
mdcccxcii.

Boulton says in the Preface: "Dr. Douglas Hyde is also to be heartily thanked for his poems in the ancient Irish tongue." (p. viii)

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 08:13 PM

Sorry to revive a dormant thread but as a new visitor to the site, I'm ranging far and wide.

Any doubts as to the possibility of connecting Clann Eoghan to the South can be dismissed by reference to the Eoganachta tribes which ruled (as allowed!) much of Munster (especially parts of Kerry, Cork and Tipperary) from the early historical period in Ireland. Clann Eoghan could easily be a reference to those families and such references are common enough in 18th century poetry in Irish by Kerry poets.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: Stewie
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:03 PM

There was a lovely rendition of this by The Druids on 'Burnt Offering' [Argo LP ZFB22] with Judi Longden on lead vocal. I don't think this is mentioned among the recordings referred to above in answer to Barry T's request. Perhaps some of the great stuff on the Argo catalogue may be reissued on CD one day - we can but hope.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,pat mcdonnell dromore tyrone
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

The 'ruined castle' referred to by John Moulden as above tbe village of Dromore in Tyrone was never a castle - this building is what remains of an Anglican Church constructed about the early 1690s and used by the local Anglican congregation until its abandonment in 1846. I would favour the Kerry(Kenmare) site !


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Subject: RE: Help: Castle of Dromore; origins and location
From: GUEST,JimI
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

"From: SussexCarole
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:22 PM

This is the song of the O'Mahony clan - possibly more info if you look into the history around Dunloe Dan"

The Dromore Castle at Kenmare was owned by the O'Mahonys up until quite recently. Specifically by the man who won Wimbledon for Ireland in 1896. His tennis court and net were still there up to a couple of years ago when I visited and may still be there.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore
From: GUEST,CARATOM
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM

I do not see any connection between Tir Eoghan ( John's territory)and Clan Eoghan(Johns tribe) except the name Eoghan - a widely used name in old ireland, I would assume. But I did enjoy the banter over the origins of a lovley song (and air). This is the type of conversation that should be had in an Irish pub - It would be worth the airfare and the accomodation cost for the experience. The Irish could get their collective teeth into this one - enough to fill a book and a few winter's evenings in front of a turf fire and a pint or three.
    It is one of the things we Irish do better than anyone else on this old mudball.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore
From: GUEST,Mindie Burgoyne
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:41 PM

I'm perhaps very late in posting to this thread - but I have visited the Castle of Dromore which is now a private home. The lyrics always familiar in my memory, confirmed that the Castle in Kerry, near Kenmare is the Castle of Dromore refered to in the song.

The castle is not ancient, in fact it is Victorian, built in 1839.   The reference of it being built by the Mahony's whose last descendant to own and live in the castle was a tennis player, Harold Mahony is true. The remains of the tennis court flank the castle which overlooks the Kenmare River.

Certainly the Castle has lofty halls, and being on the river perched above a vast estate of pature and woods, one can imagine the winds lamenting around. But what gave me certainty that this was the castle in the song was viewing the bones of the old gardens. They still exist, though nothing has grown in them for decades. They are walled with paths and small buildings, gates for entry, one into another. Some were terraced, others had small trees, and formal deliniations.

The gardens of Dromore were a perfect playground for the nineteenth century child needing to be contained in order to be protected from wandering livestock and the shores of the Kenmare River. But more important, they are magical, a place to discover, to pretend, to escape into one's imagination... certainly a place to thrive and rest.

I've written more about the castle and posted current photos on my blogsite. http://thinplaces.blogspot.com/2007/09/castle-of-dromore.html

Thanks to all of you that posted about the Castle of Dromore. It was this forum that led me to search for and find it in Kerry.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:33 PM

I've just read some of the interesting analysis about Caislan Drom an Oir - Castle of Dromore.
I would like to submit the following .... The Gaelic text leans towards "Munster irish", but that may not a definitive factor in locating the precise area of origin. That the tune or air is Irish in origin is of little doubt, given it's structure etc..etc... As most people know, many old English, Scots and Irish tunes and airs, were used ny later writers from both sides of the pond ! I first heard this sung back in 1971, by an old, native Gaelic speaker (Nell Lynch - nee Carthy) of Ballingeary, who was born 1896 ( a relative ). She could not speak English until about 7 or 8, and learned it as a child in Gaelic, from her father, Tim Carthy, who died circa 1904 or 1905 .....he was born 1838-39, so we have a Gaelic version, immersed in the MUSCRAI song traditon of West Cork predating the late 1800's ... ??? Interesting stuff !!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Castle of Dromore
From: GUEST,Charles Friesen
Date: 23 Jul 12 - 10:55 PM

Based on Masato's post (23 Nov 2002, 07:34 pm), it seems clear to me from the bibliographic attribution of the book in which the song was first (apparently) published, that no claims to authorship of the song are being claimed by Harold Boulton. Boulton's intent seems to be to put forward a collection of traditional songs.

Apparently Boulton visited friends, the Mahony's, in the late 1800's at their home the Castle of Dromore (Kerry). There has been some conjecture that Harold Boulton was a friend of Harold Mahony (Wimbledon champion 1896, Irish champion 1898). Their birthdays are 8 years apart (Boulton 1859, Mahony 1867). I've also read (unsourced) that Boulton included (researched? transcribed?) the song as a thanks to the Mahony's for their hospitality.

However this does not settle to my mind the question of the song's origin. I think it would be entirely likely that residents of a Castle of Dromore would know and cherish a song about a Castle of Dromore, even if it referred to another Castle of Dromore. In fact, knowing that the song was an old traditional Irish song, would make it all the more fascinating to the Mahony's since obviously it couldn't refer to their "new" castle (built 1839).

Now it's possible that there had been an old of Castle of Dromore on the same site (I've seen no reference to such), or that the song refers to a different Castle of Dromore entirely.

Further, neither of the Mahony children (Nora b.1864 and Harold b.1867) had children of their own. It seems unlikely that Boulton would have written a lullaby about a childless castle.

Turning now to the "translation" by Douglas Hyde, again I see no difficulty. The published song book does not claim to contain original works but "A Collection of Old Songs." That they would need to be translated into English or Irish (or both) does not seem particularly troublesome. Both languages were spoken in Ireland at the time.

It's possible (even likely?) that the words of the song were obscure or archaic, or there might have been multiple traditional versions. The 'translation' could have been an attempt merely to solidfy the text into a comprehensible 'modern' version in either or both languages.

On the whole I find the explanation offered by Ms. Burgoyne (26 Mar 2008 12:41 pm) charming but unsatisfactory. The evidence offered by Boulton's book suggests a much older origin for the song, although his experience with the Mahony's has inevitably influenced the history of the song in the form we experience it today.

I would feel reasonably confident in asserting that the original song did not refer to the Castle of Dromore currently standing in Kerry, but that that castle may have influenced the revival of the song.


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