Posting as merely 'GUEST'

Subject: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:22 PM

Considering the vast array of differing posts all coming from "GUEST", I would suppose it safe to assume that there is more than one person doing so?

In a thread recently, one "GUEST" felt he needed to say that he was not the same "GUEST" that had evidentally said something the first one would not want his reputation attached to. Now we have still another "GUEST" asking about porn. Yeesh. I dunno about any of you, but I personally would not want my posts to be interperted through the taint of anyone elses reputation (only my own taint, thanks! ;D)

Which brings me to my question. If all you have to do is choose a "handle", and never reveal personal information, why post as merely "GUEST" at all? Your anonymity is protected when you choose a handle, but you need not worry about being confused with anyone else.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:25 PM

Thank you, I don't really mind though

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:33 PM

Celtic Soul, I believe some of them enjoy trying to confuse people. I won't take any responsibility for knowing which guest is which. If they want to be lumped in with all the other no-name guests, they can. I get confused enough about the stuff that IS there and don't feel a need to deal with the stuff that isn't.

Other folks just forget to type a name in.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:42 PM

Haven't we been down this road before?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:44 PM

Coming under such a cloud of disparate, generalized anonymity, IMHO, disenfranchises the poster from any rights to serious discussion, and any such he nets is purely from goodwill. The reason being that without even so much as a consistent pseudonum tacked on tot he Guest label, there is no certainty to whom one is communicating.

At least the Conscienceof the Mudcat hoorrorshow gave us an identity and a senseof constant, if noisome, presence in his/their posts.

A

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 12:51 PM

Max can always find out ISP's for Guests; that's why it's silly and rather stupid for a member to post as Guest in order to flame.........Max knows.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:12 PM

It's true that Max may know, but virtually none of the rest of us do.

The "GUEST" postings can be divided into the innocent: nonmember overlooked the name slot, member away from his regular PC is not in the habit of filling in name, etc.; and the suspect: someone intentionally leaves the name slot blank to have anonymity on the forum (even if not to Max) and to be able to disclaim any other "GUEST" posts. Not all intentional anonymity is malicious or for unwholesome reasons, but apparently a fair portion of it is. Some postings are fairly easy to classify as innocent or suspect, others are not so obviously one or the other. And I suspect that some "GUESTS" don't give a rat's butt and couldn't be bothered to type the extra characters.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:21 PM

The whole damn subject is completely worn out. Guests are fine....legit guests that is. The Flamer Guest is a pian in the ass but these continuing drawn out conversations get nowhere. Is there ANYTHING that hasn't already been said about the differences and the Guest topic in general? Ignore or piss on the flames and respond to the legits........and everyone knows the difference. Take it post by post but let's not flay this dead horse too much longer huh?

just a thought........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:32 PM

There! It moved!

It's stone dead!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:38 PM

Catspaw and Alex,

You are overlooking the obvious beauty of this coming around again.

Instead of having to wait for a Lyric/Forum search to find the last time this came up, you only need to click the "3 days" selection and refresh (if it isn't still on the first page).....

Ahhhh....what a time saver.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM

In defense - CelticSoul posts as a (named)guest - so this is probably very irratating to him/her, and as a relative newcomer (tho it seems like he/she's been around quite a while - probably because of the intelligent posts recieved under the name) probably doesn't just how much we have thrashed this out (in futile profusion) before. and d*mned if I'm gonna refresh any of THOSE threads...

apologies CelticSoul if I've missed a gender identification somewhere...

MMario

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:56 PM

I just have a vision of these 'un-named' guests being at a party in 3-D and having someone walk in with a framed curtain around them and a disguised voice and expect everyone to engage them in normal conversation......and even that is not a good metaphor, as you'd at least know WHAT you were talking to.

*sigh*...one can only hazard a guess at the mindset that requires every set of words to be treated as an entity with no origin....3,000,000 years of evolution lead ME to feel awkward about talking to a will-o-the-wisp....

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 03:04 PM

hell, Bill - will o the wisps at least give you a glow in the darkness towards which to address your remarks. (ha! managed to not end with the preposition! awkward tho')

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM

catspaw: If the illegit GUEST has a pian(o) in his ass, I guess it WOULD be flaming...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

I am a guest by virtue of abusing my internet priviledges at work.

In a recent somewhat contentious thread I started I took some serious heat from a "Guest". And I must say I was more miffed that a person could assault my talent from within the shroud of anonimity while I am always out front with my own name. I don't mind criticism and I wanted a debate or I'd never have started that now hopefully forgoten and in this thread, an unnamed topic of discussion.

If I'm gonna do something foolish I want the world to know it was done by an expert.

Don

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:01 PM

Well Sharon, if (s)he, the aforementioned illegit Guest, had such a condition with the flaming object and all, and I had a feather up my ass, we'd both be tickled to death!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:20 PM

SharonA, that was the image I got too. And practically flailing about. Or more likely it would be the guest who was flailing. Then Spaw, you added your own image- LOL

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:29 PM

For some of the newbies, it might be good to note the origin of the GUEST prefix. At one time, someone logged on, using my name; what they posted looked exactly as though it had been done by me, totally legitimate looking. It was some nasty flaming stuff.

To make sure no one could sign on, again, with such a legitimate-looking member name, Max created the Guest appellation, so we'd know that the poster could possibly NOT be the member named after "Guest." Hope that makes some sense.

kat

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 05:00 PM

I post as a GUEST through choice.

My current IP Address is: 172.152.235.88

My ISP is AOL

The majority of my posts are of the 'click here' variety in answer to lyric requests.

I like answering these but I don't want to register as a mudcat member

I don't give a flying fuck if other 'nasty' people also use the 'GUEST' appellation. That's up to them

Meanwhile, I'll continue to answer what I can, remain anonymous, and shake my head with bemusement at how you lot get your knickers in a twist over nothing

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 05:11 PM

What amuses me is self-righteous people who post anonymously and abuse the members for taking other people's abuse seriously. If we didn't take any abuse seriously, we wouldn't take their abuse seriously either, and the whole point of their post would be lost.

Which is perhaps not such a bad thing, now that I think of it.

Alex

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: John Routledge
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 05:26 PM

Stating what is not obvious - "The answer as ever lies lies in our own hands". John

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousetheif (imposter)
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 05:29 PM

mind you, I'm a total tosser

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:24 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Alex

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:53 PM

Mmario.

Yup, you would be right on all but one count. The "he" part! :D

But all in all, you hit the nail on the head. I had no idea this had been thrashed to death. And I don't think I am up to the task of going and re-reading every thread ever written so that I am up to snuff on what is and what isn't old news. Sorry, guys. You're just gonna have to be patient with me! ;D

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 07:00 PM

"I post as a GUEST through choice."

right....as do several others...we think...maybe..sort of...who can tell...might be....

Would it KILL you to be guest:Rumplestiltskin" ...or guest:Joe from Kokomo? no identification, no cookie, no locale....just an entity with a name like guest: Don Meixner above...

yeah, I suppose it would..

(reminds me sorta of folks who adamantly refuse to use daylight savings time....they just don't want to..)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 04:28 AM

No it wouldn't KILL me

But to use your daylight saving time analogy...I just don't want to...

Regards

GUEST

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 09:57 AM

Well thanks whatthehellever Guest! Now, thanks to your confirmation of Bill's analogy, I think we can all see your line of reasoning. It's so good we can have these little talks and keep the lines of communication open. It was difficult for some to understand before, but now it's clear.

So, in other words, if your ass was packed full of white-hot charcoal briquets, it would simply be a matter of choice as opposed to a forced hot-lead enema administered by someone else? Both result in a flaming asshole of course, but it's all in the method. Yep.....I think I understand!!!

Thanks again for sharing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 10:29 AM

*giggle*....trust 'spaw to summarize things

I'm in a MUCH better mood today...went to a sing last night and heard many good songs..."Star of the County Down" on guitar & harp, "Sheath & Knife"...some country songs...even the classic "Transfusion" by Nervous Norvus done on tenor banjo with whistle & kazoo...we ARE an eclectic bunch!...(I sang Ewan MacColl's "The Terror Time" and a silly thing called "It Mighta Been Worse" from the Perry County Music Makers")

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From:
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 10:40 AM

Why don't we just plain IGNORE all posts which have the sender as GUEST with no other designation! Isn't that the simplest? The ones who post to bug people only do it because WE respond. If we DON'T, they'll give up sooner or later and we'll be happier.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 10:46 AM

...something about human nature, I'm told...like touching "wet paint" signs and yelling at the TV programs....

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 11:06 AM

Why don't we all agree to give GUEST our own, consistent appellation, such as GUEST,Whateverthehell, no matter what Guest has posted? That way, we all know whom we are talking about, regardless. They all get lumped into one, which seems fitting for gutless wonders.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 02:32 PM

funny, I had a similar thought about giving them a name..only, I thought maybe call 'em "guest:turnip" ...something bland & stupid... I really, really, really wish I could simply follow sane advice and simply never respond, so they are just shouting into the wind....but...*shrug*

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:28 AM

Celtic - I meant no offense to you - you couldn't be expected to know all the past history of this forum. I was just offering a possible explanation as to why you would bring up the subject.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: pavane
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 09:03 AM

My thoughts:

For good reasons, police and other organisations usually ignore anonymous tip-offs, complaints etc.

We have seen a number of valid reasons for wishing to remain anonymous. Fear of intimidation, persecution, illicit use of the web etc. There HAVE, however, been useful and informative postings from anonymous guests.

It is now not possible for a member to impersonate another member for whatever reason.

The only problem seems to be the confusion caused when a GUEST posts derogatory or inflammatory remarks - hardly what one expects of a real guest, of course.

If other guests are upset at being falsely identified with the flamer, then the remedy is in their own hands.

I suggest therefore that the only sensible course of action is as suggested by George Seto above - do not reply to them. But if they have posted useful information, use it.

Also, the concept of freedom of speech is intended to allow different opinions to be aired. The old saying goes 'I don't like what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it'. I know this has been restricted by all kinds of laws, but the concept is surely one which we need to strive for. The alternative is censorship, and we all know where THAT leads.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From:
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 10:56 AM

I think I came here first as simply "guest", unaware of any kind of ettiquette(?) on the web. A person new to the Mudcat can also be a person new to the web. I received a warm welcoming response to a question about a particular line in a song. Given that I was new to this whole electronic community thingy I think I would have felt most unwelcome if my lack of undersatnding of how things are done brought a negative response. I'd say it's a good idea to welcome guests who act like guests, and ignore (or openly play with) those that do not (like the GUEST bloke above).

Paul

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: LR Mole
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 11:21 AM

Just looked it up. Interestin' word, "guest": goes all the way back to the fourteenth-fifteenth centuries and can have meant anything from "stranger" to "enemy". Perhaps guests should be assigned code-style names, like "cookie jar" or "yardstick". Or not.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,fiddlesticks
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM

Or maybe "not supposed to be using work computer for music fun"!

Fiddlesticks (always a friendly guest)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 11:44 AM

Max could stick a little counter into the system which reads the ISP number so that each GUEST gets a consistent number -- anyone GUESTING from xxx.yyy.zzz.126 might always be GUEST99. Cute trick if he could make it work. That would carbe out half the bs that flies around on theis subject as they would no longer all look exactly alike. Not a trivial job because you'd have to maintain a table of past ISP to integer maps. 3 digits 000 to 999 would do it, I reckon.

A

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:45 PM

Max could also set it up so you couldn't post your reply unless the "From" box had something in it, which would be simpler.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,merely 'GUEST'
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM

I see no reason why I should not be allowed to post under this psuedonym. What harm does it do?

merely 'GUEST'

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM

IMO, this has nothing to do with how guests behave, and everything to do with the fact that some people will always want to play forum den mother/net cop.

Also, some people are totally unaware of the ways they project their fear and paranoia of strangers/guests on anon. guests here, regardless of how a guest behaves. Some people seem especially prone to this sort of unease about strangers, and here in Mudcat, it seems to be a problem more for those who use the forum as a substitute for real life relationships, and/or as a therapy support group.

I say to hell with those anti-anon begrudgers playing Mudcat net cops. Post however you feel comfortable posting. A quality, informative post is always worthwhile, regardless of the source. Ignore the fear and paranoia of the few, and contribute to the music discussions. Music is, after all, the point here...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 01:36 PM

GUEST - no one has EVER complained about informative ond/or helpful posts from anyone regardless of whether or not that was a member, a guest with a standard psuedonym, or an anonymous guest. the furor starts when the anonymous guests start in with hurtful and or deliberatly ruckus causing posts.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 01:43 PM

Merely Guest, the harm it does is manifold and if your imagination can't stretch far enough to encompass what has been said here about it, then you're part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Pavane said:

There HAVE, however, been useful and informative postings from anonymous guests.

Yes, and flowers grow in a dungheap, too. That doesn't mean I'm going to be building one in my front yard.

Alex

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:10 PM

There's nothing wrong with wanting to know who you are talking with. One does wonder why someone insists on remaining anonymous.

Scenario: The Caribbean, back in the days of the Spanish Main.
Enter: English merchant ship, sailing merrily along, crew drinking rum and singing chanteys. Suddenly the lookout spots a sail on the horizon, but can't see an ensign yet. Ship goes on yellow alert (anachronistic Star Trek jargon). Then, strange ship comes close enough to identify.

English flag -- Stand down alert. Friendly ship. Everything's okay.
French flag -- France has been real iffy lately, don't know what they'll do. Maintain yellow alert.
Spanish flag -- Definitely hostile. Roll out the guns! Battle stations!
Jolly Roger -- Definitely hostile. Roll out the guns! Battle stations!
Unfamiliar flag, can't identify -- Maintain yellow alert, see what they do.
No Flag at All -- Now that's really suspicious! Could be anything! Roll out the guns! Battle stations! But wait and see what they do. But if they fire on us, blow the bugger out of the water!!

. But then, a wise captain might chose to pile on all sail and outrun it. Other than noting its existence and taking appropriate action, he just ignores it.

Don (just finished reading Captain Blood again) Firth

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:23 PM

Alex,

I've got a dung heap in my front yard - I win prizes for my flowers...

A very bad analogy

Don Firth,

We're not exactly in a war here, either! Are we?

I will continue posting whatever I can usefully as a guest. Lots of people will get answers they want, and will probably thank me. If you choose to ignore me, well up to you.

Take care

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:31 PM

I think, guests, the best thing to do is to ignore the comments of the obnoxious members, since they are only a small proportion of what is otherwise a wonderful, knowledgeable, warm-hearted and informative 'extended family'

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:33 PM

I don't give a fig if someone types a bit of information or a question as a guest. The point where it becomes confusing is in discussions, when continuity exists. The guests' posts become disjointed and may not make sense - especially when they reference a previous post of theirs.

If they don't mind being thrown all together in the big guest collective, I guess we could think of them as a hive or something, and respond to the voice from the hive. Unfortunately, the voice is sometimes trying to stir things up, so everyone in the hive is going to get blamed. If someone's going to give up all identification as an individual, they'd better be prepared to not be seen as one.

<irony>Maybe Max could assign Borg numbers to them or something: 1 of 4, 3 of 7...</irony>

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:34 PM

A very bad analogy

Stinks, don't it?

Alex

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:34 PM

Well, GUEST, that's the question. Sometimes I can't tell.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:40 PM

Well said, GUEST, I totally agree.

Jeri,

I, for one, don't mind being "thrown all together in the big guest collective" I'll answer music queries when I can, and then go home.

Let's face it, the whole place is fairly anonymous - do you really know who 'Long Fat Freddie' is?

Quite why he/she should have greater validity than me... we've been over this already....

Take care

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:47 PM

The only thing I don't like about the concept of posting as GUEST is that in practice, several people do it, and when there are several GUESTS on the same thread, we have no idea if we're talking to the same person or not. And I'm sure that the kinder, gentler GUESTs don't want themselves confused with the mean, nasty GUESTs. Nobody has to join up for anything but it would be nice if GUESTs could take 2 seconds to make up a GUESTname to distinguish themselves from one another.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 02:59 PM

Chaos and the unknown is where music comes from.

Many people feel uncomfortable with chaos and the unknown, and their creative output reflects that, be it music or cooking or inventing a new safety pin.

If people choose to ignore me because I post anon. I have no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, it would be preferable to whining around that anon posting disturbs your little Mudcat world. I really don't have a problem interpreting what is being said in threads with more than one anon. guest posting--it just requires closer reading is all. For the Sesame Street attention span group,I realize that might pose a problem, but its their problem, not mine.

This is the Internet. Many people post using false identities. Why, when this is such a common practice, do a very few of you continue to make such an issue of it?

If something about Internet discussion forums bothered me as much as anon. posting seems to bother some Mudcat members, I just wouldn't bother with going into the discussion forums.

We don't have within our powers to control the Internet environment, in Mudcat or any other discussion forum.

Wouldn't it be much more productive and pleasant to accept that, and engage with other posters based upon what is being said, identity/label/handle be damned?

A lot of good chaos gardening is getting done by guests here...I love it. Which is why I continue to post anon.

Why waste all this time and bandwidth over something you will never have control over?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:22 PM

What GUEST says has much to recommend it.

If GUEST says something insightful and/or full of interesting information, learn and enjoy. If GUEST behaves like a horse's ass, simply ignore.

I've spent too much time on this today. I've given myself a quota of no less than 1,000 words a day on my writing project, so I have to get to it. Observe and marvel at my spread of full canvas as I sail swiftly and gracefully over the horizon.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

Too many people take this place too seriously.Get over yourselves.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:33 PM

Don Firth uses an analogy of "guest as potential enemy" thereby suggesting the conversation is to be viewed antagonistically and adversarially.

Mousethief suggests guests are full of shit.

Not exactly the type of "family" group I'm interested in visiting with, much less joining and becoming a member of, thank you very much.

I'll continue on as guest for those reasons, and will ignore the attacks/slurs by the ignorant.

Any discussion forum is what you make of it, not what others make out of you.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:43 PM

No, cautiously. Wise, as recent history on Mudcat demonstrates.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:50 PM

I think people are sensitive about it because someone likes to post as GUEST and then act like a complete a--hole, then wonder why people get mad at him/her. Some like to hide behind GUEST just so they can behave like an a--hole, without retribution. This has happened here on several occasions.

If someone wants to be part of the conversation without revealing their identity, fine. I don't care. But if someone wants to act like a jerk and they're just hiding behind the GUEST moniker, well, that's just plain cowardly.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

But Kim,

That's just the point -

What difference is there between my telling you that I hate you (which I don't)

and the following....

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: I hate KimC
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

I hate KimC lots and lots and lots

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:05 PM

Sorry, no offence intended, but point hopefully shown.

It's such an obvious point, but some people don't wan't to see it.

Some of us CHOOSE despite everything, to be guests, so please stop the vindictiveness.

Many thanks

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:10 PM

Guess what Don Firth and Kim C...

There are malicious trolls crawling and prowling all over the Internet--yes, they can even be found in Mudcat!

And they are not the only people who post in Mudcat as guests!

So what? If you don't like trolls, don't participate in the forums. They will never go away, and you will never have the control over the discussion forums you think you should have in this regard.

So why not do your blood pressure and emotional health a favor, and try a new GUEST paradigm?

Instead of painting all guests as trolls/trolls as guests with the same broad brush?

There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, despite your insistence that we guests are trolls.

We aren't.

We aren't acting like jerks.

You are, by suggesting that GUEST is synonymous with TROLL.

Not one guest posting in this thread has been what some people suggest guest postings "often are like"--not one.

It would be a much more productive use of everyone's time if some here would really work on their personal unease with and animosity towards strangers and social interactions they can't control on Mudcat, rather than bitching about and flaming guests who are behaving well, and contributing to the forum discussions about music.

To project your past bad experiences on people who have never encountered you before is just way off. Way off. And that is what too many Mudcat members are doing.

Your past history is your past history. It isn't appropriate to drag your personal baggage into present conversations, and project negatively onto others what was done to you in the past.

That is about as text book dysfunctional as it gets.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:15 PM

GUEST - READ the posts please.

The complaints are not against "guests" as GUESTS, they are against those who purposely use the ability to "hide" behind blank "Guest" postings to damage, hurt, ridicule or otherwise cause trouble. HOW MANY TIMES do we have to repeat this?

It has been stated repeatedly by many people that there are no objections to those who do not care to join, or even use a standardized nickname - until they start anti-social behavior. One guest brought up the "right" to anonymous free speech (the actual defined right is to free speech, not anonymous free speech) - but under the same laws one is also entitled to know and face your accurser - so that argument does not hold water.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:21 PM

Like-wise the fact that there are flamers and trolls in many spots about the internet does not mean that they have to be welcomed anywhere - or that that should be considered acceptable behavior everywhere on the net. the fact that I could, should I so desire, start a forest fire does not mean that I should or that I will be unpunished if I do.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:24 PM

MMario,

And I anxiously await the thread welcoming anon. guest posters, and thanking them for their contributions to the forum...

HOW MANY TIMES do we anon. guests have to point out how wrong/unjustifiably paranoid some of you are about anon. guests?

You have no way of knowing the identity of the guest posters exhibiting anti-social behavior, whether they use a standardized nickname or not. You have no way of knowing whether that anti-social guest is, in fact, a member posting as a guest.

You are also ignorantly attempting to equate consitutional amendments with rights of defendants in a court of law. The two are neither equatable, nor the same thing. And neither has any real bearing on the current conversation.

But BTW, the judicial system does protect the anonymity of "crime tipsters"--for good reason.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:34 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:43 PM

Well, there it is again. This is pretty obviously the same GUEST that pooped in the punchbowl just a few weeks back. He/she/it appeared just a bit ago on another thread, spewing vitriol and paranoia. Same MO.

A couple of times I have tried to be conciliatory and friendly to GUEST, but every time I've made the attempt, He/she/it has responded by trying to bite me in the ass. GUEST doesn't need a name. I recognize the style.

Jeez, GUEST, get professional help!

I'm gone. On to my literary project, so I won't be back to Mudcat until this evening. I won't be back to this thread at all (talk about a waste of bandwidth!!). I have better things to do with my time.

Don Firth (henceforth known to GUEST as "Ironpants")

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM

Chaos and the unknown is where music comes from.

Your taste in music obviously differs greatly from mine. Which makes me wonder why you're on a Folk Music site.

If you can't understand this simple argument, then perhaps a course in logic or critical thinking is worth an investment?:

1. Some anonymous guests have provoked huge flamewars, hiding behind anonymity 2. Therefore people here have a suspicion of anonymity 3. Yet some people, again posting anonymously, loudly bewail being discriminated against because they choose to post anonymously and are abusive (e.g. "some people don't want to see it" and "attacks/slurs by the ignorant" and "whining around that anon posting disturbs your little mudcat world") 4. And then they wonder why we dislike them 5. And demand we accept their right to post anonymously, when they have shown, by their own posts, that they will use that "cover" to be abusive and to troll 6. And yet they are infuriated when anonymous posting and trolling are equated

What are we to do, O thou Guest Who Wishes To Remain Anonymous? If you could have this discussion with us without being such a jerk, it certainly would lend credence to your argument. But because you have made yourself so nasty, you merely reinforce ours.

alex

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:57 PM

I see what you mean. I will reconsider. Perhaps I will choose an interesting name, and stop all this anonymous BS. Or perhaps I will become a teakettle.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,traddles
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:00 PM

I think MMario is being pretty reasonable, and naturally is forced into being repetitive but there are SO many reasons that some might choose to be anonymous. Lets face it, not everyone on Mudcat is playing with a full deck. There are people who are willing to take grudges and apparent slights a long way, and occasionally these situations leave the confines of the net and can impact negatively on someone's private life. There are other times when you simply don't feel like being called "shite", or told to f**k off when you're part of a controversial discussion. It's almost a given that the posters who get flamed the most are the ones who express themselves civily. I have no problem with "guests" who simply don't think that being a street fighter is a prerequisite for participation.

There is nothing wrong with being a "guest" and never was. The ones who demonstrate viciousness or "attitude" get called to task, the ones who ask or answer questions, or who can chat like adults have always been welcomed. Yes, this is still "the net" but wouldn't you agree that it's still hanging in there as one of the "bright lights"?

Traddles

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:17 PM

Ironpants!!!! Heeheehee!!!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:22 PM

It's almost a given that the posters who get flamed the most are the ones who express themselves civily...

I strongly disagree, Traddles. It is a very rare occasion that anyone gets flamed here. I have been a member for over a year, express myself civilly and have never been flamed, and am not in fear of being flamed. It is the people who come here to cause trouble who find it.

Noreen
wearing asbestos underwear as of now...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:27 PM

Mmario. No offense was taken, sugar. Really. And I knew none was meant. None was meant from me in return, either. I have found you to be a more than polite, kind, intelligent, and helpful person in my time of reading your posts, and the once or twice I have met you ;D

To the "GUESTS"; I am certainly not proposing that people post names and e-mail addresses. It would be rather hypocritical of me to say the least.

In other words, I am not out to try to change anyone to my way of thinking, or to sway policy here at the 'Cat. Really, all it was was curiosity. I think y'all have answered my questions. :D

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:36 PM

that asbestos underwear...is it supposed to protect the wearer, or the public? ;^) Enquiring minds want to know.....

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:36 PM

I have to admit I don't really have too much problem with the guest thing - I know people who appear as a named guest who contibute regularly and have there own reasons for not joining and who am I to judge. Those who choose to be anonymous -well it's their loss, especially when they have positively contributed because it can be a wonderfully supportive community here. Those who flame and troll -frankly I don't want to know who they are and I certainly wouldn't want them to join!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:44 PM

Guest, Traddles brings up an interesting point... people posting anonymously because of a fear of repercussions in the 3D world. Personally, if I ever get to the point where posting causes me to feel fearful for my safety in the 3D world, I will probably just stop posting altogether. Just my perspective, but posting to an internet forum just wouldn't be important enough to me to have to make those kinds of efforts in order to do it.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:45 PM

Thanks for the interest, Bill... :0)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:51 PM

Traddles, who was good enough to give us a name, just hit it again and it bears repeating.......

There is nothing wrong with being a "guest" and never was. The ones who demonstrate viciousness or "attitude" get called to task, the ones who ask or answer questions, or who can chat like adults have always been welcomed.

Bless you Traddles!

We have a Guests with very legittimate reasons for being so.......can't accept coolies (work computer) and things like that. We also have some who simply are here to flame/troll and that's the sole purpose. The difference is obvious. One of those types just said above that Mudcat was: "Not exactly the type of "family" group I'm interested in visiting with, much less joining and becoming a member of, thank you very much."......Then why are you hanging around except to troll a bit or flame someone? Why else would you hang out with such a bunch of assholes?

We do have quite a few Guests who are viewed as members, like Russ, and it upsets them when this subject comes up. Again....no problem with Russ, or Traddles here. Why don't we quit giving the dumbass Guests what they want? Probably won't happen, but as an idea, it's better than fair.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 06:09 PM

It is dysfunctional to not identify oneself when speaking with someone else. I am sure most GUESTs would not telephone someone then not tell them who they were. It is a courtesy which should be extended here.

By engaging in this round-robin-discussion-going-nowhere with the "I'm so superior" GUEST, we are giving it the attention they seek.

This thread should die off.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:15 PM

Agreed - but I have to add - there have been many posts thanking anonymous people for their contributions -

Subject: I can't believe we s
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:32 PM

Eureka!!I've got it!!! If you want to address a certain posting by a certain guest, just use the time of the posting as a reference point. That way, when you wish to insult someone we will know exactly to whom the insult is leveled!!!! It's so simple! Why didn't the rest of you think of it??????

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:39 PM

oh,06-Aug-01 - 08:32 PM, that is no fun at all! It has no continuity! *grin*

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:44 PM

...Oh Aug 6 01, 8:39 PM, it levels the playing field!! Then we could argue about folk music instead of this boring caca...*wink*

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 11:35 PM

Spaw, don't be elitist- Some of us would accept coolies.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 12:09 AM

Whats a coolie?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 12:22 AM

A little Chinese guy with a pointy hat that Max sends out through the ether to live inside your computer and tell the Mudcat computers that you are really you. You don't have to do anything as he comes with his own supplies of tofu and rice.

Spaw

.........smartasses...........

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 12:28 AM

Thanks Spaw.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 01:14 AM

John in Hull,
In an earlier post,[05.51 PM], Spaw typed "coolies" when he meant "cookies".
Ebbie noticed this and decided to try to wind him up.

A "cookie" is a sort of ID which is loaded on your computer, so Mudcat knows who you are; a "coolie" is the Chinese word for a general labourer (often seen in films with a cone-shaped straw hat, pulling a rickshaw).

Trying to wind Spaw up is a long standing ambition for many of us, but it isn't easy.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 01:31 AM

If they have got these things "to mudcat computer you are really you" why are some people pretending to be somebody else? will they get found out soon? or has Max run out of cookies? As you can probably tell I dont know much about computers.from john in hull (I really am john in hull)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:45 AM

Spaw,

Again, the original intent was not directed at guests who use a handle (I.E. "Russ" and "Traddles"...or me for that matter ;D ).

I was asking why anyone would post simply as "GUEST" with no other additions so that folks can tell them apart. Posting as "GUEST" with a handle is still anonymous, but it allows others to know one "GUEST" from the next.

Really, I was just curious what the mindset was, if there was one at all. One such "GUEST" basically said it was laziness.

I think my question has been answered. :D

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 09:20 AM

john from hull,
I've sent you a personal message to try to answer your question. To view it, Go to the top of this page, and click on "Personal Pages" then scroll down and click on "messages" Eddie

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 12:00 PM

Guest Traddles managed to say (Aug. 6, 5:00pm) in a couple of lines what has taken us paragraphs to say.

Thanks, Traddles.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM

GUEST Celtic Soul,

My reason for not using a consistent identifying name in the From line is security. I realize that most people here are pretty paranoid about posters who cite security reasons for remaining anonymous.

That is a large part of the conflict between certain members, who are always suspicious of guests who choose to post anonymously, and don't accept security as a legitimate reason, and guests who do it.

Many people who post on the Internet are blissfully ignorant about security issues by choice. They just don't want to accept that security issues related to Internet identity are real.

For your information, the security issue with using a consistent name, whether real or fictional, is that tracking of individuals on the Internet is often done with keywords. Log-in names and passwords are the easiest thing to track. So that is why some of us choose not to use them if the forum doesn't require us to do so.

Some forums do require log-in or user names, and a verifiable email account. Many people don't use them for that reason, or use what is known as a remailer account.

Hope that clears things up for you, and finally answers your question as to why some of guests choose to post this way.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM

Quite precisely put, August 7 01 12:56PM. For the rest of you, try typing in your mudcat handle on any of the search engines and watch how fast it takes you to all your mudcat postings!!!!!!!! Hope you don't mind!!!!! of course you could regularly change your forum name and stay ahead of the seaqrch engines if you don't post anonymously! harpgirl

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 05:50 PM

"Round and round and round we spin to weave a wall to hem us in"

Neil Young

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:13 PM

!!!!???? search engines don't index this forum!...a search on Bill D gives HUNDREDS of hits...none of them here!...and 'harpgirl' gives 32 hits...most in some harp mailing list...NONE here!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:18 PM

As I just said in the other thread BillD, it isn't about search engines like Google, Yahoo, etc. which capture Usenet messages.

What I am talking about is software used to monitor where a person goes on-line, and the information trail they leave.

There is a difference. Do you understand what the difference is?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:34 PM

Crazy Eddie-Thanks for the message.
Everyone Else-Is this the same crazy,paranoid Guest that was here a couple of weeks ago?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:35 PM

Lemmee post it here too......

We have a very regular Guest.....goes by the handle "Russ"......Now someone might steal his Guest ID, but he prefers to remain as a Guest for other reasons, whatever they are........Fine with me. Because he does this, I frankly consider him a member. I can't for the life of me see the problem in maintaining a standard ID unless your desire is to flame or troll. Strikes me as an easy thing to do and unless you're a paranoid of the first order, what could the big deal possibly be?

The longer you go here Turnip the more sold I get on the idea of posting scrambled ISP's. And doing a web search returns fewer than 1500 hits on catspaw49 and I have over 12,000 posts here....that was on Google, I didn't try the myriad others. What is the big deal about maintaining an ID here Turnip?

Now....After reading this last post or two of yours, I would hate to be you. You seem to be completely mental. I assume you sleep on the floor so no one can hide under your bed. Do you have a private food taster or have you quit eating because you are fearful that he might fuck you over? Okay, I admit it.......I can't wait to give Max a call and find out all about you so I can explore your life and fuck with your bank account. I might even show up on your door with a .357!!! I bet you'd be positively orgasmic over having your paranoia confirmed huh Turnip?

You need to get some professional help before you cower in fear of being attacked by your own shit..........or do you do that already?

This entire conversation(?) is, and has been, going nowhere.........Continue if you wish and have a nice time...........................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Immanuel Kant but Kubla Khan
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 10:05 PM

Spaw's very witty and insightful heap of dung shows all guests the perils of posting without a recognizable handle. You become a "legitimate" target for the abuse of regular members. However thoughtful or intelligent your posting you may at any time be called immoral, a coward or turd simply for not having a name. The abuse will be heaped on you by people who would not think of judging a live person face to face by the colour of their skin or the tones of their accent but will do it when they cannot see a "Name". The same people who would fight to keep the right to a secret ballot in decisions of importance in their country. Guests are the Mudcat scapegoats and those who most need help are the ones who so gleefully suggest others seek it.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 10:07 PM

...wrong, wooden bowl breath!!!*wink*

I can get right to my cumulative posting list with my handle and so can everyone else. The forum is indexed all over the web...but I love you anyway...harpgirl

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 10:26 PM

LOL Spaw!
Guest-As harpgirl pointed out if anyone wants to see what I have written, all they need to do is click on my name, a screen pops up that shows everything I have ever written here, I have no problem with this whatsoever, and really can't see why anyone would.

john in hull
East Yorkshire
HU3 1LA

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 11:12 PM

John in Hull,

And if you wish to remain blissfully ignorant of the fact that the security issues I'm speaking of don't just include what you say, but the fact that you use similar passwords to log onto your bank account, to use your VISA card to make Internet purchases, and to access your email account or web site accounts, you have every right to do so.

No law against choosing to deny reality.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 11:31 PM

quote: PIFFLE! unquote...

yes, MUDCAT indexes it's own posts, and you CAN look at every post Bill D has made WITHIN MUDCAT...but if I hadn't made my address, real name and email easily accessible, you couldn't find me....

the only way to trace a person who posts in a chat room is to find the IP number(which is easily hidden if you need to), then convince that ISP that you have a VERY good reason to know who posted at that time..(court order)..then spend weeks as the ISP tried to sift thru millions of relevant log-ins...etc...

READ MY LIPS...there is no " software used to monitor where a person goes on-line, and the information trail they leave.", except for certain cookies and THEY don't identify YOU...they only establish a pattern.....

it is fine to be aware of security...I do it myself with two firewalls which kill cookies and javascripts. But it is ludicrous...let me repeat..LUDICROUS... to imagine that you could be 'found' thru any postings to the Mudcat if you choose not to...unless you simply leave clues.

Oh, crap....why DO I bother!...I used to know a college professor who was convinced the Psych. Dept. was doing illegal experiments on him...including pissing in his car battery!..He was always polite to me, but made it clear he didn't really trust even me!...Died believing *they* were after him! (His name was Hugh Walpole..wrote a book called "Semantics"

so,my dear Turnip.....you have never said WHY anyone might want to 'trace' you, you have only expressed concern that they 'might'...I repeat ..PIFFLE.....I give up...I surrender...there IS no way to reason with you, and you DO NOT CARE to know the truth of it all.....you are happy in your carefully constructed coocoon of anonmity, which no one wanted in anyway.

you want more discussion? Get an anonymous web-based email like Hotmail,(you DON'T have to give a real name or address) and email me.. [e-mail]..(you won't...but...)

*sigh*

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 11:33 PM

(BTW...I had 2 beers tonight, and my inhibitions are a bit 'loose', shall we say)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:17 AM

Ah, Turnip,

If you could just read your posts as others read them.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:24 AM

Me too, Bill D.....Guest, honey, you want to stalk me? Go ahead......the info is all here, but be warned that I have a .41 Magnum and I would not hesitate to use it on an intruder.

I also have pretty good Internet and telephone research skills, plus good connections and a police Lt. for a husband......I know how to find you if you call or show up, and I know what to do if you do..........garunteed you will lose in the long run,sweetie.

If all you want to do is try to scare me on the Internet, it isn't going to work.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM

...and that is why I lovingly refer to her as "Scorch!"

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:56 AM

Guest- I DO NOT use the same password here as I do at the bank! (At the moment I am 23 pounds overdrawn). The more I read your posts the more convinced I am, that you need specialist help. I once met a guy who was convinced "The Russians" were putting rays into his head, he was very wary of telling anyone his name as well, although I think it was Terry. Seriously Guest, get some help.john

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:09 AM

John in Hull -

I've noticed that, too. As Turnip Guest tries to make his point more clearly, he kind of unravels his own logic and sounds less in control of his personal demons. He must make his own life fairly uncomfortable. Well, I know my own demons get unruly at times.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:15 AM

I thought I was mad, This guy is a bloody nutcase!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM

Guest-Even if I told you my bank password, surely if you were going to rob me you would need,
1 My full name
2 My full adress
3 My Bank's name
4 My Bank account number
5 The security question the bank ask me!
But like everybody else here I give up, this whole conversation is pontless.

john in hull (Yorkshire!)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 08:41 AM

As another guest noted, when the members start screaming about how insane the guest is, the conversation is over.

Too bad people here are so paranoid about anonymous guests, they can't even engage in a civil dialog about Internet security and privacy issues.

Worse than pathetic, really.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:36 PM

John,

See, I think you hit a little too close to home.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:54 PM

Bless me Turnip for I have sinned. I now freely turn my entire life over to you and have taken all of your advice so find something else to harp on huh? I am throwing away all of our beds and sleeping on the floor, and soon the guy will be done bricking up the closets. I have arranged to change my e-mail on a regular basis and can now be found at [e-mail]. Please forward all correspondence to this e-mail immediately before it changes in 37 minutes.

I have lined the walls with mirrors so no one can sneak up on me and have hired an agency to follow me in case someone else is following me. Tomorrow I will hire another PI to track them and another to follow him. I'll be tracking the last guy and when we get the circle small enough, we'll hold a circle jerk in your honor. We'll send you pictures if you are still using the e-mail addy of [e-mail].

Many thanks for straightening out my life.

ex-Spaw, now Turnip Disciple#1

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:10 PM

I note that since 5pm Mudcat time on August 6th (Guest, traddles message), there has been a marked decline in guest participation in this thread.

A quick count shows 38 messages from Mudcat members (the usual suspects) flaming every guest post, and a whopping 7 messages from guests.

So for the past 2 days, Mudcat sycophants have been flaming away at "mere guests".

And we are supposed to presume, by this behavior, that it is the guests who have a problem?

Looks to me like Mudcat has become a nesting ground for net nuts.

The personalities of the members certainly fit the MO.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM

Catspaw:

Tuprnip Guest has gone on to coding posts in order to come up with statistics - very scientific. I don't think he's done much to (im)prove, or even clarify, his position.

Who are the Guests (plural) he is referring to? I have noticed that there are a number of Guests on threads with content who are happy to participate in Mudcat. They choose names to go along with "Guest" so we know it is not the determinedly anonmous poster who's unrelieved negativity has appartently made it necessary for him to go top extreme lengths to hide any hint of his identity. I don't see any sign that Guests are unwelcome, I think that aggessively rude people might find they are less apprecited than those Guests with something to add to Mudcat.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:41 PM

Lets just ignore him.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM

Her.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:57 PM

Ignore him/her? Fat chance of that with this group.

OTOH, its clear the guests have largely decided to do the mature thing, and ignore the lot of you.

Numbers don't lie...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:59 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

John in Hull -

Do you think he means it?

Isn't there somethng odd about being ignored by a totally unknown figure who insists on standing in the shade in the middle of a moonless night to make sure that no one can track him down and do unspeakable things to his person?

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

He/She is mad! I can just imagine him/her walking around with a paper bag on their head so nobody can see who they are!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 06:43 PM

I get "more respect"

Than most would expect

When I post....as the anonymous GUEST.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,traddles
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 06:51 PM

Noreen said in one of her posts

"I strongly disagree, Traddles. It is a very rare occasion that anyone gets flamed here. I have been a member for over a year, express myself civilly and have never been flamed, and am not in fear of being flamed. It is the people who come here to cause trouble who find it."

Granted Noreen, much of the worst and most hurtful flaming took place before you came here, but I've done some checking and there have been quite a number of recent examples. Perhaps you haven't visited those particular threads. There have certainly been enough flames to make Mudcatters who don't possess really thick skins think twice whenever they feel like giving an opinion. In almost every case, what prompted the flaming would seem to be simply someone else being irritated by the poster herself/himself. In no instance was the flamee being nasty before the attack. I think it may be a case of familiarity breeding contempt. I find some people here pretty irritating as well, but what's the difference between that and the 3D communities we live in? I simply don't think that being irritated by someone gives us a license to harrass them anonymously. Having said that, I can't for the life of me see why someone who's just giving an opinion or taking part in a discussion POLITELY need identify themself. Maybe they've been flamed recently and simply don't want their very presence in a thread to spark a repeat attack. It happens. Also, they simply may not be that adept at coming up with a quick nickname.

Harpgirl's suggestion IS brilliant. Should solve the problem totally don't you think?

GUEST: Aug.8, 1:10PM, Maybe you can start your tally again from here. (BG)

traddles

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 06:58 PM

gargoyle-I have decided that you are a bad guy, why don't yougo away? as I said before, when I fond out where you are I will cut your phone wires, so ypu can't mess about anymore.john

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 07:07 PM

Noreen,

Do you really think that is Guest Gargoyle who posted above? Anyone can log in as Guest Traddles, too. That is the only thing that Turnip Guest has suceeded in doing, making it very difficult to separate those Guests with thoughtful complaints from the ocassional one who pops in to burp.

As one of them points out, there have been some flame wars but almost always, at least every time I can think of, they have burned over and scorched bridge have been repainted. Most people learn that the deficincies of purely written communication can lead to misunderstandings. It takes patience and tolerance rather than willful parsing of messages in order to demonstrate superiority.

The worst flame wars come when someone insists on teaching stangers just how intelligent he is and spends hours of effort trying to prove it. Well, we each spend a few minutes on our messages, while the flaming turnip has to put hours into his effort.

If you wander aroudn the threads, you can see how much thought he has put into the logic of his arguments. I sure wish he had put that effort into sharing information rather than trying to correct attitudes. Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 09:09 PM

Woah.

OK. Apologies all around. It was not my intent to stir up a hornets nest, honestly. I really was only curious, and as a relative newcomer myself, had no idea things on this subject were so heated.

It was also not my intent to say that the guests themselves were "mere guests" (as if they were of less worth, or carried less weight). Rather that the name "guest" is not a lot to go on.

If people are OK with their posts potentially getting mixed up with others, hey cool by me personally (not that you need my permission). I say live and let live. I just wanted to know why.

One such said it was basically laziness. Another says it is internet identity protection. OK. That satisfies my personal curiosity.

So, what does everyone think about Celtic/Jazz fusion, anyway?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:38 AM

"So, what does everyone think about Celtic/Jazz fusion, anyway? "

Are you trying to start a REAL flame war??!!?? **BG**

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Kjell
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 11:16 AM

I have just recently got my cookie back, I hated being GuestKjell I felt as if I was invisible. But to post without any ID - whats the point, it does not add to the mudcat, it detracts.
Kjell

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM

Interesting observation Kjell. I think it speaks volumes as to how guests are treated here whether using a handle or posting anonymously. I've seen a number of other guests say the same thing. They felt like pariahs until they joined.

Which is a large part of the problem with having two ways of posting, rather than one. I belong to a number of mailing lists, lurk on Usenet's alt.music.bluegrass and rec.music.folk, and never have I seen the hostility over identity anywhere but here. And I've been on-line in these groups for a bit of a spell.

I just think it is very sad, as Mudcat never used to be this way before Max split the forum technically between member and guest users.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:37 PM

?? yes - it occurred previous to that - which is why the split occurred.

And you are the FIRST guest I have ever seen claim to have been treated badly aside from the anonymous ones.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

MMario,

Scroll up in this thread, and you will see a number of anonymous guests and guests with handles complaining of being treated badly. Kjell said he/she felt invisible when posting as GUEST Kjell. Many people who are newcomers to the forum quickly realize that they will be treated badly if they don't become members. If you post something of interest as a guest, some member comes in and says "why don't you join"? If you announce yourself as a newcomer, posting as guest, someone inevitably says "why don't you join"? Then, if you decline, you get treated badly.

While some of this scrutiny of guests is well-intentioned, it isn't always well received. Many people are shy and don't want to be singled out that way for attention. Some of us don't want to join, because we've already joined about a million website discussion forums, only to find we rarely participate. Some of those website discussion forums flood your mailbox. And thank you, I know it is an option when joining Mudcat to be on a mailing list. Regulars need to understand that not everyone who comes here wants to be a regular. Not everyone who comes here regularly as a lurker and occassional poster, wants to be a member.

I think there is a lot of bigotry towards non-members here, just as some other guest users who posted previously to this thread have said.

If members choose not to believe that, and continue to harrass and intimidate guest users, this forum will,IMO, suffer in the long run. I feel it already has in the short run.

Your denial about the ways guests are being treated is the very attitude that causes some of us guests to feel like pariahs, to feel invisible, and as though we will never be treated well unless we join.

I don't think that is the way people who care deeply about Mudcat want to be seen. But in recent months, a number of different guests have said that is the way it is for them.

By denying their experience in Mudcat, just because it doesn't match your own, isn't fair to the newcomers.

Peace.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Sourdough
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:27 PM

I can't agree that this is a flame-ridden site. There are well over a hundred current discussions going on at any time and the number of participants and topics has been growing steadily over the past years. The occasional flame wars that sweep throough other sites makes the whining that some people do here seem very petty.

In my opinion, this is an amazingly comfortable, welcoming, supportive site with people who have gotten to know each other over a period of years.

That its main purpose, to be a source for information, where anyone, friend or stranger, can come and benefit from the knowledge of others, is extraordinary. When a muisc question or lyric search is requested, people race each other to be helpful, to be of service. I like being a part of that.

I think Guest Shenandoah's is a minority view. Max and his helpers have created an extraordinary community. Further than that, the DT database is an achievement worthy of being a life's work and for which tens of thousands of peole are already grateful. And it's free because of volunteer efforts.

I would think that any creation that promotes friendship appreciation of music and poetry, that exists to help people, preserves traditional music and has held to its main purposes for several years has to be worth a great deal of respect. As for the people who have created the database and the site, even more so. That is why so many of the long-time members, when they make suggestions, do so with a tone of appreciation for what they are given.

In the past two years, this site has become a real part of my life. I feel as though I know people here, people who post regularly. I see their names on a post and I can put what they say in a context of the literally hundreds of other messages they have written at earlier times. Over the months, a picture of each has emerged in my mind. I have learned about singers and songs from people who have a first hand knowledge that makes what they have to say rich and exciting. There are people here with whom I would never have had contact with if it weren't for Mudcat. There are songs and stories I would not know if it weren't for Mudcat. Recently, while planning a cross country trip, I asked for suggestions about where to visit. One suggestion I received turned out to be the highlight of my trip. If it weren't for Mudcat, I would never have known the place existed.

I wonder if the few people who do complain about being badly treated here also appreciate the undoubtedly good things about this unique site made possible by the efforts of ohers.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

I agree with everything Sourdough says.

There may be something to GUEST,Shenandoah's perception that guests are treated badly or being pressured to join.

The problem, I think, stems from the fact that recently there has been at least one GUEST whose apparent purpose here is to spread paranoia and stir up discord. As a result, when regular visitors to Mudcat (members or regular guest visitors) see a post from "GUEST," there is no way to tell if this is someone who is seriously asking for or offering information--or the troublemaker. The immediate reaction under these circumstances is, of course, suspicion. If I respond sincerely and openly to GUEST's post, I'm not sure whether I'm dealing with a normal human being or with some pathetic sod who is going to respond to my response with something insulting. It happens. A lot! So if there seems to be a cold response to guests (and I haven't noticed this, but I've been around for a while so I don't necessarily see things the way a newcomer would), then that's the reason. Guests are welcome! Provided they behave the same way one can reasonable expect a guest to behave in the 3-D world. If someone behaves this way in the 3-D world, it should come as no surprise if the reaction they get is negative. Here, it's easy for someone so inclined to behave badly, because they can hide behind anonymity. This, unfortunately, can give the sickies an opportunity to go around barfing on people.

And as far as being pressured to join is concerned, what people are saying is "Come on in, the water's fine!" not "Join or I'll break your knees." When I first started hanging around, I got the same invitation and felt because of it that I was welcome (Catspaw49 was the first, bless his heart!). But I never felt pressured, nor did anybody treat me badly until I joined. With my life-long interest in folk music, I found a bunch of kindred souls, so--naturally--I did join. I've since found Mudcat absolutely invaluable on many levels--at least to me.

On a down note, if newcomers do feel that they are regarded with suspicion and are made to feel uncomfortable, I am genuinely sorry. But it demonstrates that our gadfly, the troublemaking GUEST has at least partially succeeded in sowing a measure of discord in an otherwise warm and welcoming place. I hope this troublemaking GUEST is proud. Accomplishing that is really something to tell the grandchildren.

All guests and newcomers of good intent, please bear with us.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:00 PM

Soudough,

While I appreciate that you value the community here a great deal, it doesn't mean that is what all users value. And I mean that with no flame intended whatsoever.

Not everyone who comes to Mudcat is seeking on-line community and camraderie. Some really are here to learn and to share in the website as one of many fine folk music resources on the Internet.

I don't know how many of the long-time regular members of Mudcat regularly visit and participate other folk music forums on-line, but it seems a good number of guest users do. I think that is where some Mudcat members just don't get what we are talking about. Some of us feel as though Mudcat, in comparison to other on-line forums, isn't any better a community, nor is the expertise here better than those other communities, etc.

Do you understand what I mean? As I said, I lurk in some other forums, participate on some mailing lists. They all have many fine, knowledgeable, helpful people. Rarely does a posters identity get challenged (flamers and trollers are the only ones who do). Most people in those groups do use their real life identitities, but those who choose not to aren't harrassed like they are here.

There really is a noticeable difference between this folk forum and other folk forums in this very specific (ie over guest users) regard.

When you join a mailing list discussion group, everyone is a member, and so this "us vs. them" mentality never develops. When you post to a Usenet newsgroup, you don't "log-in" you just post. Website forums which require log-ins are a sort of hybrid between those two. I admit I've never been to a website forum which allows both guest and member users to post. In that sense, Mudcat is unique. I just think that extending the membership benefits to the forum log-in is a mistake. Members could have all their benefits they currently enjoy, and the forum could be such that no one had to log on, just as guest users do now.

It seems to me the real problem here is some Mudcat members are a little too attached to their Mudcat identities. Its pretty bizarre, to my way of thinking, that anyone would make such an issue of a log-in handle as a personal "identity" anyway. But that's me.

I'm sure you are right about my opinion being a minority viewpoint here. But because its a minority viewpoint doesn't mean it should disregarded and ignored. A number of guest users this summer have complained about the treatment they have received from members. I think they have the right to be heard and should be taken seriously.

We are all users of the same forum, after all.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:15 PM

uhm - shenandoah - the "problem" members here have with guest is ONLY with unidentified flamers and trolls. Other then that we are HAPPY to have guests - named, un-named, regular, irregular, long term, short term, whatever. this has been stated over and over and over and over. However - there are posts - again from unidentified posters - that try to turn this into "guest persecution" . I don't thing any reasonable person thinks it unreasonable to want to know who it is that is slamming a friend - or one's self. And if the un-named is contributing to a discussion - a nametag certainly helps.

"Too attached to ones's mudcat identities?" -why wouldn't one be? My login name represents "me" - my opinions, my thoughts, my postings. It allows people to lookup every post I have made on the forum over five years. If someone shanghai's my id - it is basically the same as if they started sending out e-mail from my account - or signing checks with my name on them.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:46 PM

MMario,

No, I think a number of anonymous and named guest users have stated repeatedly in this thread, the "problem" is only with flamers and trollers.

As a number of us guest users have said, the problem is with members scapegoating and flaming guest users.

None of the guests in this thread have behaved badly, despite some choosing to speak provocatively. As to guest users being insulting, I don't think anyone's message have been more rude and insulting than catspaws.

The double standard for "acceptable" behavior for members and guests is bullshit.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:52 PM

It matters not how many times members *say* they treat guests well. What matters is how guests actually feel they are treated here.

A number of guests and current members who are former guests, say they don't feel they are treated equally, or well.

Actions speak louder than too much protestations doth.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM

...a number of anonymous and named guest users have stated repeatedly in this thread...

Really? When you can't convince us of your point under one anonymous identity you try and pretend that there are several anonymous (and named) GUESTs posting, with the same axe to grind, the same style of writing, and who all appear on and leave the forum at the same time? Give us credit for a little intelligence.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:40 PM

Sorry, Max.

I'm not getting involved in this "discussion". I think all that can reasonable said to an unreasonable person has already been tried, by many caring members.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 06:07 PM

when Mudcat started it HAD no 'members'... having a cookie-identified name was Max's way of giving MORE features..like your own links and PMs...it also helped flamers and trolls from usurping the name of nice people and creating extra problems. People are STILL welcome to post regularly without a cookie, and many do...but most USE a name. Many serious bouts of name calling and harassment were **SPECIFICALLY** done by 'guests' abusing the system and hiding...so you wonder why we dislike it?

as to USENET....every post I see in, for example rec.music.folk, HAS a named author. It can be changed, but unless you NAME yourself 'anon', you have a name...there are no 'blanks' allowed.

You can be as anonymous there as you can here, but to conduct sane conversations, you need a consistent ID.

catspaw? he has a mouth, doesn't he?..but you sure know where to find him, and can PM or email him if you want to yell at him for it!...I have, more than once...but this debating with shadows leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Gary T
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:14 PM

In this thread alone I've seen evidence that those who choose to post as unnamed GUESTS get grief for it. Though some of those posts involved speaking critically or, as mentioned, provocatively, none struck me as being beyond the bounds of decency or respectful discussion. I think the badgering of GUESTS on this thread is out of proportion to statements in their posts.

One GUEST explained his concerns about security. Several responders didn't share those concerns. It's fine to disagree, but was there any call for the ridicule and belittlement in some of the responses? I think they were out of line.

I understand, and support, being wary of "GUEST" posts. I don't believe, however, that said wariness should preclude giving some benefit of the doubt and some attempt to see things from another's point of view. I have seen scant evidence of that sort of openmindedness.

It is a bit disconcerting sometimes, responding to a GUEST, especially if there is back and forth discussion and possibly more than one person appearing as GUEST. I just don't think that antagonistic posts improve the situation for anyone. Surely we can do a bit better.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM

Thanks Gary, for your open mindedness, trying to walk a ways in the shoes of guest users.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:48 PM

I agree with you Gary T. There is tremendous pressure to get people who want to remain more anonymous, to fall in line, despite Max's desire to allow this practice. When I come upon an anonymous user who is pointing out our dysfunctionality, I say to myself " Well, what if this is Max saying this?" Does anyone else do this?????

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM

No.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:55 PM

...maybe you should...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:02 PM

Member users or guest users--we are ALL Max's guests, no? Maybe members need to start behaving more like guests, and less like company that never leaves. <:0

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM

I should ? Careful...

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:17 PM

...my Lancashire born and bred greatgrandmother and my Lancashire born and bred grandfather always said "Some people ignore the message and kill the messenger....don't be among them, Noreen. You are too smart for that.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:01 PM

One of the troubles I have had in leaving Mudcat is that as I was around a while and still have contacts here, I get to hear about certain threads and can't resist reading. I have read this one now so here goes...

I see what was (although discussed many times over) a reasonable suggestion by Celtic Soul and I see it now turning into in-fighting.

Why? My own opinion which could be wrong is that many of the guest posts here were a troll by one person but it makes little difference except to say if you think it's a troll, stay out - you can't win but can end up drawn into fights.

Either way, some posters here have yet again managed to supply fuel to arguements. Whether the poster is genuine or not, the worst thing you can do is insult - in this case, all the insulters do is draw justification to the plight of the Guest and their mistreatement by members (and I believe there is some validity there - esp when it comes to making controversial comments) and in the worst case, an innocent person could have been offended for giving thier view point.

IMO, the biggest single problem in this forum is not one of guests or IP addresses or anything like that - it is a simple matter of failing to see the other side.

In my time here I have seen what I could call an "anyone can post anything as long as I approve" attitude and an "I can post what I like regardless of what anyone else thinks" attitude...

The set up of Mudcat makes it IMO one of the biggest challenges amongst internet forums i.e. how to exist as a pretty well unmoderated forum with people who's only guaranteed common interest in life is folk/blues music. We don't even know backgrouns, whether some prefer to me loners, whether others prefer a community or what.

We tend to fail at the first hurdles such "as how do we make life enjoyable for the BruceO's of this world and still have it fun for the Catspaws?" There must be a way and I feel sure more effort could be made by all.

Mudcat can still grow (Max willing) but in my whatever time I've been here, I've seen circular patterns rather than any forward movement. Is there no way that we can: Learn to cope with Guests whether they be trolls or not (most aren't and many give good contributions) and maybe accept and work on the fact that our only common interest is music and at least try to understand and help the other side (just in case anyone wonders, I am pro BS but also in favour of moderation or looking for alternative channels that maybe even Max could provide).

Just my rant and thoughts and maybe a hopeful plea.

Jon

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: John Routledge
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:07 PM

Jon - Depends on who the GUESTS are. A philosophical statement if ever ther was one!! John

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:10 PM

(by moderation above, I mean don't go too excessive on BS - how excessive is too excessive is anyone's guess of course!)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 10:58 PM

well, I for one, have done about all I can, and plan to edge quietly out of this debate...My views are known, and I can't force anyone to do anything....I have 'tried' to avoid simplistic insults, while making it clear that I consider totally anonymous 'guests' to be awkward to deal with.

Now, let's see if I can just pay attention to my own admonitions and shut up about it....

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:45 AM

Jon,

I see no evidence of trolling or wind ups from the guest users in this thread. I do, however, see us (yes, us--not me--we have what appears to be at least three anonymous guest users in this thread, possibly more) contributing to a thread asking anonymous guest users why they choose to post anonymously.

Because one/some of the guest users makes certain Mudcat members feel uncomfortable with their insights and contributions, doesn't make them trolls (certainly not by the common Usenet standard, available at any of the on-line jargon dictionary sites, or general practice of trolls in Usenet groups).

But your claim here that at least one guest user here is a troll, I see in your message just the sort of sadly predictable over-reaction that starts the whole vicious cycle. Because both reasonable, polite guest users and members are now beginning to support the anonymous and identified guest users, we see things once again on the brink of descending into flaming guest users. Justification? Well, you think one of them is troll.

This thread was started by a guest user, who asked other guest users why some would choose to post anonymously. The guest users have been very civil, IMO. Even members have come into this thread to say the flaming of guests was inappropriate in this thread.

Mudcat has a serious problem with a few *member* trolls though, who routinely try and incite other members (as some have noted, there is a regular group of members who can nearly always be counted on to join in and gang up on guest users they don't know, don't like, or just plain disagree with) to leap on the lemming wagon, and start flaming away.

Max allows the guest user to choose how they wish to post. He has stated he is not willing to change the log-in at this time. It seems to me, there is a core group of members who are really pissed off at Max about this, but are taking it out on the guest users because they haven't been able to make Max give them what they want to wit: not allowing guest users to post in Mudcat anonymously. I believe what some members actually expect here is for Mudcat to operate like a private mailing list.

It doesn't, and Max has said it won't. This disgruntled lot seems to have attempted to usurp Max's authority here, and defacto rule the roost by playing gate keeper in ways which Max may or may not support.

But the point is, as long as the forum allows it, members who treat guests badly are clearly alienating some newcomers and occassional users. That isn't very conducive to the discussion of folk music here, especially when there are many other excellent forums for discussion of folk and blues music where one needn't put up with jerks like some of the self-appointed Mudcat cops here.

.05 worth, and the meter is still on. ;-)

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,JMR
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:26 AM

I agree with GUEST.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM

This anonymous guest has refrained from participating in this discussion, because the originator of this thread posed an innocent question and then stated that his/her question had basically been answered. However, like other good threads, the topic raised often inspires poignant and intelligent conversation on related themes.

Still, it seemed as though the thread had devolved into yet another attempt by one side to convince the other of the validity of their arguments, and past attempts at this have proven to be futile. There is no reason to think that this attempt or future attempts will meet with any better success. Both sides, from their respective viewpoints, make convincing and logical presentations for their positions.

It is also useless, IMO, to speculate why some members have such adamant misgivings toward guests who post anonymously. Understanding the underlying reasons does not change the fact that these members, regardless of the content of the post, will always have difficulty with those who choose to post anonymously, for various reasons which they have stated repeatedly. They are, of course, perfectly entitled to their opinions, and ultimately, are justified (at least in their own eyes - but often with good reason supplied by anonymous flamers and trolls). It is not to them that the civilized and inocuous content of anonymous posts is directed. Clearly, the message contained in unsigned words is not for everyone, nor should it be.

Disregarding the messages whose intent is to incite incivility or disparage another person, anonymous posts are for anyone whose primary interest is in the message being conveyed within the words. They are for anyone who doesn't mind that one anonymous post may be incendiary, another insightful, or that the author of both posts may be one and the same. They are for the discriminating reader who can ignore what he or she finds offensive, and focus on what he or she finds interesting. They are for those who are less interested in forming friendships or establishing a milieu of mutual support, but more interested in the exchange of thoughts, ideas and information. They are for those who don't care who says it, but do care about what's being said.

Not being able to speak for anyone other than this anonymous poster, it matters less what one thinks of me personally, or whether my behavior is deemed acceptable by the membered regulars, or even whether I am accepted by the established members or relegated to the class of flamers and trolls. The only thing that matters to me is what you think about the words being said here.

Anonymous guests in this thread, have in some instances articulated very eloquently my own inchoate reasons regarding anonymous posts. Many thanks to them for saying what I have been struggling to say for some time.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:52 PM

Can all of the anon. GUESTS of this thread understand they have no valid argument as there is no proof that there is more than one of them? That's part of why it keeps going round in circles.

Imagine a room full of people who are absolutely identitcal, refuse to share any kind of names name with people who have chosen to use nicknames or their real names. The GUESTS then demand respect from all? Doesn't fly. Until a GUEST can be distinguised from another, even by using a simple numeral, it will be assumed, and rightly so, that it is the same GUEST, over and over.

Imagine the Anon. GUESTS of the Mudcat trying to cope with the regulars if everyone suddenly posted as GUEST only? Who would they whine about then?

kat

This is not the same as someone who posts as GUEST with a handle, as Celtic Soul did.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM

Each and every anonymous guest knows if there is more than just themselves participating in any given thread, so we do have that "advantage" (if some wish to perceive it that way) over everyone else.

There is also no "proof" as you say kat, that anonymous guests also aren't members posting anonymously. I've seen numerous instances of members wanting to "prove" how easy it is to "steal" a member's identity (and how awful we should feel about that), steal the identity of a guest user they don't like/disagree with, only to fess up to doing it in a follow-up message. I've also seen a number of other posters use the handles I've signed in with previously post as guests. I know it isn't me, but of course, no one else does. I suspect the person doing it is either a member who wants me to bite the troll bait, or a troll who has perused the archive, and figures that by using a previously used handle of someone who has been involved in controversial discussions (whom the members clearly enjoy flaming) can get the fire roaring that much more quickly by posting some simple provocation.

The response by certain members is entirely predictable.

I haven't seen any guests "demanding respect" in this thread. I have seen numerous guests, some members who are former guests, and some members say that there are some pretty hostile and rude members of Mudcat who are doing the discussion of music in this forum a disservice, however.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me. Not because I'm an insensitive lout, but because I'm here for discussion, not friendship and community, just like the above guest.

I love the idea of everyone having to post anonymously! That way egos and personalities wouldn't dominate, and we could have meaningful exchanges based upon what was actually being said about music instead of commenting on one another's personalities and personal foibles.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Brían
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 02:03 PM

???????????

Brían.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 02:54 PM

Each and every anonymous guest knows if there is more than just themselves participating in any given thread, this is so illogical it is laughable.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 02:57 PM

Brian,

I don't consistently post anonymously. Sometimes I post with a handle. I've seen other guest users type a handle I've previously used in the From line. Of course, Max and I would be the only ones who know for sure when it is being done.

Based upon my personal experience with this, I suspect some member users are sometimes impersonating guest users.

Only Max knows for sure.

Myself, I could care less if someone wants to try to impersonate me by "stealing" a label/name. This is the Internet, and seeing people impersonate someone in a discussion forum or newsgroup is hardly the worst of what is usually done with identity theft. I'd certainly rather be impersonated by some twit, than have hackers messing with me any day.

It helps to have a healthy perspective in this regard, and to keep uttering this mantra "Its only a amessage in an Internet group, not a textbook on brain surgery to be published within 24 hours."

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:06 PM

Trys again...

I know what I post and what I don't post. You don't. If there is one other anonymous guest posting to the same thread as me, I know it. So does the other anonymous guest. And Max. None of the rest of you knows for sure, but we do.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,merely 'GUEST'
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:45 PM

I love Mudcat. Where else would someone like me get a thread about himself stretching out to over 160 postings? I am so humbled. Most people simply ignore me, but not the Mudcatters. Especially the inner clique, who are the nicest people I have ever met on the Net. I think everyone on Mudcat is wonderful, kind, and considerate, and I am most grateful for being given my 15 minutes of fame, so to speak.

merely 'GUEST'

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:24 PM

"GUEST" wrote; "It matters not how many times members *say* they treat guests well. What matters is how guests actually feel they are treated here.

A number of guests and current members who are former guests, say they don't feel they are treated equally, or well.

Actions speak louder than too much protestations doth".

Can I just tell you that the *only* time I was made to feel the least bit uncomfortable here was when I first joined, and it was from an anonymous "GUEST" who posts much in the same style you do?

I have no way of knowing if it *was* you or not, as you have no handle, nor did they. All I can tell you is I joined and was entreated to some pretty impolite behavior, and not by any of the regulars.

I am still getting my "Cat" feet here, and have appreciated the regulars patience with me. However, if anything has tainted my experience at all (and it has not to any appreciable degree, as I will not let it), it would be the aforementioned.

So my question would be: Does it matter how I feel I have been treated? Or is your statement (as quoted above) only reserved for those without a name or membership?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:35 PM

We appear to have difficulty dealing with two distinct methods of communicating in the same forum. There are those who like to know who they are speaking with and can be very, almost paranoically, uncomfortable with words without attached humans. They are more interested in the people speaking and in the way their ideas evolve. Then there are those who are far more interested in the words and the ideas on their own than they are in the people who wrote them and they become defensive when asked for some kind of credentials, because the seeking for identity often overshadows, or downright ignores, the intelligence or thoughtfulness of an anonymous posting. At the extremes of both of these views are the people who cannot understand the logic of the other side and then either fade away or become very, very rude and abusive.

When somebody suggests that they have not been treated with reasonable courtesy it makes sense, if you're interested, in finding out how or why. If you're not interested in doing that much then you can keep your keyboard closed. Abuse does not lead to any understanding. Affirmations of "Well I was treated all right therefore you must be mistaken in thinking that you weren't." are pretty much useless.

It seems to me that the simplest thing that everyone can do is realize that not all anonymous guests appear with evil intent. Like an inkblot test anonymous postings often bring out what other members think is intended, which is sometimes pretty foul, but isn't really the intent of the ink. If you are uncomfortable replying to someone who doesn't post a name then don't reply.

Its kind of funny because there has been another thread running about phone numbers, listed or unlisted, and the various ways in which the phone companies can and cannot help or hinder. Some people need to know who is calling before they pick up the phone and some people don't need to know. But what's the use if you get the technology to let you screen out unwanted callers but cannot resist picking up the phone every time it rings anyway?

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM

I still have one question on this topic, and then I think I will leave its ashes alone.

I am *still* completely anonymous. I have not attached a name I use anywhere else, and I have no e-mail attached either. I really am curious to hear how this makes me "vulnerable" on the internet. I would be very impressed if anyone could find anything at all about me other than what I have posted here.

I do believe that the fundamental conflict here is a battle that cannot be won, however.

I apologize to the Mudcat for opening this can of worms.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:06 AM

Sophocleese said:

"Some people need to know who is calling before they pick up the phone and some people don't need to know. But what's the use if you get the technology to let you screen out unwanted callers but cannot resist picking up the phone every time it rings anyway?"

Ah, this is it exactly sophocleese! Thank you for wonderful analogy. Also for the great insight into the "two types of people" who choose to post here as members and guest users. I'm an ideas person, not a relationship person. I'm no recluse, but I have a small circle of intimate friends I socialize with, and I try to keep the circle of acquaintances I interact with personally to a modest level. Being an artist, I need to set aside tremendous amounts of time for myself to get my work done.

I've had an unlisted phone number for over 10 years--before the "technology of privacy invasion" hit full steam. I realize I am now a distinct minority within the US population who even cares about protecting my privacy, especially among the younger set. I no longer post on the Internet using my real life identity. Not because I'm trying to "hide secrets" but because it keeps the number of posts to my email box down to a reasonable level I can manage on a daily basis. Before I made this change, I got a lot of unsolicited emails from wonderful, well meaning folks who wanted simply to chat because of this or that thing they had read that I'd written. It became a huge drain on my time, and I found I wasn't enjoying my time on-line anymore. I love the anonymity of the internet to exchange ideas.

But because I have plenty of good supportive relationships in my life, and I have a busy, full life to boot, I don't come on-line looking for community. I come here to side-step a lot of the emotional undertow of such relationships, and save my emotional energy for the people close to me in real life.

As to the phone thing, I don't have caller id. I often turn off the ringer on my phone. I never answer it when I'm "at work" (which is out of my home). One of the cardinal rules of at-home workers who have learned to use their time effectively is to use technology (ie voice messaging/answering machine) to answer the phone, while you get your work done.

The only real problem I have with Mudcat now is that the forum discussions about music (my reason for coming here) has been overtaken by the "community" that Mudcat has become. So my days here are numbered too (soon back to school year schedules). I'll spend my limited on-line time in forums where music is being seriously discussed, not here.

That's the way it goes on-line. It is cyclical. But when groups get hijacked from their original purpose, it's usually a sign of impending death, not a low point in the cycle. If no one with substantive knowledge about music frequents the forum, Mudcat will have outlived it's usefulness to the music community.

This summer, it looks as though that may just be where we've ended up. But hey--there are still a number of good music forums out there. For every group that bites the dust, another will rise in it's place.

Ciao!

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST,Toledo
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:28 AM

Oops! Sorry, meant to fill in from line with handle on the 10:06 a.m. message.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:50 AM

Celtic Soul,

See the above post re: keyword searching matching email accounts, IPs, log-in passwords, and content.

Of course you are anonymous to Mudcat in the sense that I don't know who you are. But then, I don't have any interest in knowing who you are, and what you do on-line.

Increasingly, employers are following their employees on-line tracks. Former spouses/disgruntled lovers are using the technology for stalking. Hackers with criminal intent (usually financial exploitation of people's on-line identities) engage in identity theft. People who are engaged in political activist work (especially those on the left, whom the FBI, CIA and other law enforcement information gathering agencies like immigration, welfare, etc) are often monitored for both on and off line activity. And then there are those people who just prefer anonymity for privacy reasons, ie the same reason they choose to have unlisted phone numbers,etc.

Those are the privacy issues. A person who chooses to protect themselves for any of the above perfectly valid reasons, with the technology available to them, simply won't post in Mudcat or anywhere else with a consistent identity (ie email account, passwords, identity labels like many use in Mudcat to log-on, etc).

Again, hope this helps you understand the concerns some people share regarding right to privacy on-line a bit better.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:56 PM

Just thought that some of the ideas in this thread hadn't been seen by some who are back at square one again.

I'm glad Guest of August 11 at 10:06 that I managed to say something the rang true for someone, somewhere.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:27 AM

I read through most of these postings and now I have a headache. If I take a potshot at somebody, they can return fire since my post is identifiable, which is as it should be. Guest traddle is at least identifiable in this thread, so I could aim a reply back if I felt like it. Too many guests are shape-changers, they set up a topic and then flame-complain if you ask for facts.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:13 AM

Sophocleese,

Considering the type of persons in question, I think your expectation that they will ever get beyond square one may not be very realistic. Just keep on keepin' on.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: sophocleese
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:16 AM

I'm not sure "Too many guests are shape-changers" some are and some aren't. Many members are rude buggers at times too. They give me a headache.

Subject: RE: Posting as merely 'GUEST'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:55 AM

Shape changers, changelings, and fairies all have a special role to play in keeping us all on our toes, eh?

But this thread is getting too long to load...let's morph it into...

Guest Fairies Welcome Here