Lesbians, Gays and folk music

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:08 AM

Peg !!! Tsk tsk tsk !!! You said the magic name. Wait til Clinton sees it... then DUCK.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 09:40 PM

Well, actually, at least in Balkan/International folk music and dance circles, gay men have always been well represented and fairly visible--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Madhatter
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 07:02 PM

as we all know "there's know't so queer as folk" madhatter

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM

I actually think that Jack the Sailor pretty well answered the question first posed.

The reason gay males aren't attracted much to folk music is that 1. It isn't culturally what attracts them at this point. Stereotype but true, they tend toward pop, glitz, OR hardcore----I mean, heck, they were instrumental in defining our pop music and culture (as someone before me pointed out). As the MAJORITY of them (Fred Small notwithstanding) are not interested in the "folk scene" the rest don't go there because the pickins would be pretty slim (when looking for potential sexual partners).

Lesbians, on the other hand, are women who by nature and desired appearance, do not care to fit a societal norm. The folk scene attracted a few, very talented women and that signaled that they might find a comfortable home in the folk scene---as well as other like-minded women with whom to "mate".

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Cappuccino
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Sunday morning here in Oxford, England, and I've just come home from playing my morning duo gig in church, where the minister told the congregation that he had met two lesbians on holiday, and was praying for them to be cured.

I thought 'ohmygawd.....'

And, as a matter of interest, my favourite gospel choir is Lavender Light, the New York 'gay and lesbian, people of all races' gospel choir. Read their story, if you're interested, on www.skywriter.demon.co.uk (sorry, haven't learned the blue clicky things yet) but the lady who chairs them (and who uses the wonderful e-mail name 'MC Jellyroll'!) once told me: "if there were more choirs like this around, there'd be a lot less gay suicides..."

All the best - IanB

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,dougboywonder
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 04:13 AM

Oh, how could I have forgotten - There's that song by Alistair Hullett. It sounds wonderfull sung by June tabor, but when he himself sang "Theres a man in my bed..." I couldn't help but laugh at the age of eleven, till I found out the English folk tradition does that all the time.

Men singing "My love he is a handsome man, and proper tall and slim..." or Women singing "I love my love as well she knows.." or "...my true love passed me by, I knew her mind had altered by the roaving of her eye.....and married we never shall be." (you're not kidding...)

It's just that we PRESUME they're singing songs meant for the opposite sex. To the naive, folk music possibly has the largest body of recorded homosexuality of any genre ever.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 02:31 AM

Okay, here are a few more thoughts. Perhaps less gay men then women are out in folk music because it s more dangerous and there is less support for out gay men. Homophobic hetero men are more likely to assault gay men than gay women. I've lesbians to be more supportive in a group than gay men. Again, this is my own humble observation and not dogma. Also re the message from pc49; gayness is biological, not social. One in ten. Count the number of people on the next bus you ride. Do the math. It's not a disease, or an arbitrary choice. Not that it couldn't happen, it's just not probable. Then again, Sammy Davis Jr. did convert to Judaism. Jeeze, talk about taking the hard road. Homosexuality and homosocial relations do occur in many other species. Like it or not, it is a fact. Your serve.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

I agree with kat that two 'old maids' sharing a home historically seem to have raised few eyebrows. Two bachelors had to be brothers or otherwise related to each other to attain the same acceptance.

However, I would go a step further and venture that there's another element at work here, a sexist one. I suspect that one reason that two women living together has been accepted was the widely held belief that women are inherently less sexual than men and therefore 'probably' don't have a sexual relationship. (And we all know how much more sexual men are! Stereotypes are amazing, aren't they.)

Among my own friends in Oregon, there are several pairs of women who live together that, to this day, I don't know whether they are romantically/physically involved with each other. In some cases, if I felt it necessary to make a judgment on it, I would guess that they are probably not a 'couple'. In other cases, I imagine they are. In any case, I think it's good that they each have found someone who cares about them. Loneliness isn't fun, I've heard.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: iamjohnne
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the line dying out if the female folksingers are lesbian. I think that Melissa Etheridge and David Crosby provided an answer to that. Johnne "goin where the weather suits my clothes"

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:25 AM

Guest, JW, good points. I missed your post as I was writing mine. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM

In more repressed times it was much more acceptable for two "old maids" to live together than two bachelors. While both were thought to be oddities and outside the "norm," women who roomed together and taught school or whatever were less of an anamoly, I think.

I don't like to see generalisations made. I've been in the lesbigay world for so many years, I've met people from many differemt walks of life, colours, ethnic backgrounds, ect, folks like anyone else. Raising children, having babies, loving family, working hard, and making their way in the world.

At a gay dance spot we used to go to, when most everyone was truly in the closet, in Casper, WY, 22 years ago, I saw big huge truck drivers, as tough as they come, dancing with cowboys or sweet young men who worked in antique shops. I saw strong women, full of fierce pride and resistance to society's dictates, feeling free to sweep another woman off her feet, hold her close and dance her stockings off. Because back then, bisexuals were not even accepted by lesbians and homosexual men, I fell in love and was rejected for being a "fence-sitter."

In the way of our world, gay men are the last despised class of people, still reviled and hated by those who are filled with fear. In many places it is still totally acceptable to express and act upon that fear. Of course, it still happens to women, too. Two of my best friends here in town are completely out as a couple of over 16 years. There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of their safety and give thanks for it. It was not that many years ago that a lesbian couple was murdered in Oregon. It was not that long ago I helped a lesbian whose co-worker decided to show her what a "real" man could do for her, through repeated rapes. But, it is also not that long ago that we all came together, lesbigay people and heteros to hold one another in grief and solidarity for our brother, Mathew Sheppard. And, not that long ago that we marched together, arm in arm, borrowing the songs of the civil rights movement, bursting with joy at our freedom to assemble, peaceably, and declare our solidarity.

Yes, homosexual men and women are the last acceptable minority target, but it is changing. This year's census report showed an increase of over 2000% in the number of homosexual couples in the state of Wyoming from over ten years ago, and the Rocky Mountain area leads the country in increased population of lesbigay people. The more who come out of the closet, the more the fear can be confronted and assuaged through education and interaction.

Woman have not had the constraints of intimacy in their friendships/relationships as men have. Women can walk down a street, hand in hand and most of society thinks nothing of it. Let two men do the same and chances are they will be harassed. I can only hope we see an end to it in our lifetimes.

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM

Great thread. May I add my two cents worth? Maybe lesbians have had a need to ID with a particular type of music in order to "thin end of the wedge" because of the restrictions imposed by society on women in general. By that I mean that gay males have never been restricted in their ability to express themselves culturally (at least in the west) because they have always played such a huge part in creating general culture - have been so productive in all areas of culture. Gay men, being men, have always had access to the same avenues of expression as straight men. The history books are full of gay male cultural super stars, who took their place alongside straight men. It is only recently that women have been allowed to contribute in a larger way to our cultural life, so maybe gay women find safety in numbers in a particular branch of that cultural life. Just another couple of comments : to nonPC49 - humanity will hardly die out due to non procreation by homosexuals; its more likely that over procreation by heterosexuals will be our downfall. I presume you also dissapprove of heterosexual couples who do not have children. Also, if non-procreation is abnormal, and gays not procreating would lead to extinction of the human speciesas as you fear, think on this: most animal species that have ever existed are extinct, so extinction is the "norm". Sorcha, not all gay males like or engage in anal sex - I read somewhere that about the same percentage of het men as homo men like and engage in anal sex with their partners. Sorry for going on so long.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Peg
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM

Gay parents can be as wonderful, effective, loving and nurturing as straight parents. I know a lesbian couple who just gave birth yesterday!

What is all this hogwash about the species dying out?

You have gay friends? Sure you do. So does Clinton Hammond.

BTW the very talented and very GAY Ashley MacIsaac was GREAT tonight at the Galway Bay Oyster Festival!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

Very true, jaze. Sad, but true. Here I am, out in Old Wyoming---home of the Matt Shepherd beating/murder, with a very possibly lesbain daughter........

Maybe........women's relationships are "percieved" as less threatening because of the Dominant Macho attitude that is percieved of most men?

i.e.---Men somehow think they can always dominate women (even if it's not true); women seldom think they can dominate men and usually don't want to try.....we just go our own way and ignore them. We just don't care that much about dominance.

Gay men are not usually "dominant/macho" in the sense that I am using it.....neither are gay women. But, the men seem to make easier targets, because women a)don't give a shit and b)will fight back sooner......???? (still rambling.......

(this is coming from the "Don't threaten my cubs" place...)

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: AliUK
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:38 PM

nonPC49....my but you left yourself wide open, "I am not homophobic and have several "gay" friends and acquaintances". Seems to me I've heard THAT apology before in a different context. I think Joe said it all and there's not a lot more to add.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

Sorcha and jaze are both wandering along the same thought line as I was above..............Just seems that although society is still not accepting of gay relationships, they seem to be far more accepting of female than male.........Again, just an observation as I said above.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: jaze
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

Does it seem to anyone else that "racial" prejudice is no longer "politically correct" in nearly all circles only to be replaced with an increasing prejudice against gays? It seems society is particularly fearful of and hateful towards gay males. Male nudity is considered "dirty" while most people consider the naked female body a thing of "beauty".There seems to be an inherent prejudice agaisnt men in this respect.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

WOW!! I am impressed! An intelligent discussion without flamers (so far). I was going to make a couple comments, but they have already been made, by Joe Offer and kat. I was going to say k.d. lang, but Guest nonPC49 beat me to that, too.

It seems somehow, to be "safer" for women to have women partners than for men. Perhaps this has something to do with (pardon me for saying it) the phobia about anal sex......gay men do, gay women probably don't. Don't know for sure.

Also, it seems to me that in GENERAL, women are emotionally tougher than men all over the map. You all know the saying,

"If men could have the second and fourth baby, there might be a second, but never a fourth...." It surely has something to do with the "female" mind set.

Most "serial killers" are men; granted, some are female, but not a large percentage. Most "parental killing of children" in the Homo sapeins species is by females (mothers), not males.......don't know just where I am going here, rambling.......somebody help me out here.....

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,nonPC49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM

Just a thought, but isn't it just a bit sad that there will be no Arlo, Hank Jr, Liza or Kirsty to follow on from Janis Ian, Judy Small, k d lang et al?

Although AI, surrogacy or adoption may be substituted for normal procreation, isn't this chosen homosexual "lifestyle" inherently sterile and non-(re)productive? Socially acceptable it may be, but it can never be normal, or homo sapiens would be extinct already.

I am not homophobic and have several "gay" friends and acquaintances (although I still begrudge them the adjective), it is just that I get the feeling that there is a fashionable tendency to impute homosexuality to any male who exhibits sensitivity or a "feminine" (ie not testosterone-laden) nature.

This buggers up the gene pool by making it harder for normal, sensitive, heterosexual women to find suitable partners of the opposite sex, which can make them turn to other women, celibacy, serial monogamy or, worse (for the offspring, at least), single parenthood and thus contribute to the decline of what little remains of civilisation.

Basically, though, I don't give a flying f*** what artists (or anyone else for that matter) do in their private life, I'd just hate to see the breed die out! So, it is perhaps just as well that the majority of us are still resolutely heterosexual.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 06:52 PM

Very clearly put, Joe. This must be the main reason. However, I'd like to add that Judy Small may not be a trad performer as such. But she has said in interviews that many of her songs are written in a 'traditional' style because she realised early on there are very few traditional songs about women, outside a very limited number of stereotypes.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM

I believe you have made excellent points and that there is merit in all of them particularly Joe's women's movement commentary.

But I believe that the answer lies more in their chosen lifestyles and culture. (Not their sexual preference but their social behavior and fashions.)

In my admittedly limited experiences with gays of both sexes I have found males to be more glitzy than straight males and the females to be more earthy than straight women.

This is a generalization but I think many of you will find that your experience bears it out. Gay males tend to look and act more like Broadway or pop musicians with neat expensive snappy clothes, while Lesbians lend to be more bohemian in their dress and demeanor. I would think that like most people they would be drawn to musicians with whom they have more in common.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

At first read, I was confused as to whether we were discussing performers or audiences, but it really doesn't matter, I think Joe's last post is pretty true. And I'd also be curious as to whether a part of it isn't related to more acceptance (not that society has suddenly embraced women) of female homesexuality more than male. I don't know that's true........it's an observation of some things I see. Perhaps because of women's issues as Joe said........or something...........And I can be obviously quite wrong.

I wouldn't even try to "defend" that observation because not only may it not be true, it's simply an observation from me, here, as opposed to you, there. I'd like to know what others think and I would especially value Emily's opinion.

I think the singer-songwriter idea has a lot of merit too with audiences more used to women singing their lives onstage. It's not my favorite stuff, but there are many I do like. "Lilith Fair" of a few years ago certainly drew a heavily lesbian biased audience and there were very few males in attendance in general, hetero or homosexual. I really had a great night, but talk about seeing the other side and feeling the outsider.........Don't get me wrong, it was a great night and a friendly bunch of folks, but one of those times when the "majority dominant" position of white, hetero, male got the chance to be in the insignificant minority......Always humbling and something we need to feel. When you grow up in the "dominant majority" you can have empathy and work toward justice and equality, but you never really know the feeling.......This was as close as most of us can get....I know it's not the same, but it beats nothing.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM

Same here. Very true, Joe.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Joe, you have made what I consider to be an excellently stated and very astute observation.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM

Kat - I have CD's from ten of the women on Ferron Fan's list. Yes, they're all very good performers - but most are what I would call singer-songwriters, not folk musicians. Of the performers on the list, only Fink & Marxer are the only ones who are closely tied to traditional folk music. The others may do a traditional tune now and then, but they're more closely tied to what is sometimes classed as "Women's Music" - Tower Records puts them in the bin right next to Folk Music.

Of the women on the list, my favorites are Holly Near, Meg Christian, Cathy Fink, Marcy Marxer, Cris Williamson, and especially Judy Small.

I think that lesbian musicians have made a concerted effort to identify themselves as such because they see that their music has the power to make the world a more welcoming place for them. Lesbians in general have worked to ensure that their interests are included in the category of "women's issues" - part of the general movement for rights for women. There is no similar "men's movement" - so homosexual males don't have a larger movement they can tie themselves to. The women's movement has a very large stage, and lesbian musicians have wisely made themselves a place on that stage. No such opportunity exists for homosexual men - not because of any particular folk music prejudice against homosexual males, but simply because history did not present them a similar opportunity.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Emily, there are actually quite a few in your neck of the woods, or at least there were when I lived there. As to whether they're unattached, I couldn't tell you!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM

And a heroine of mine. I never tire of her mastery. Amazing tunes... simply amazing. I think I shall go "refresh" on her shortly. I'm in that kind of mood today... rainy, boring, lonely - just the time to hear her whine in her amazing way.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Cappuccino
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:33 PM

To Gnu - the Janis Ian website, which has a very good forum indeed in which the lady herself often answers questions, once included the question: 'I heard that Janis once got married... to to a man!' which provoked a very quick reply along the lines of 'yes, but she's alright now!' She's still a heroine of mine. - Ian B

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

Thanks, Ferron fan #1, I am also a big fan of her's, as well as the others you mentioned, esp. Holly Near!

Joe, I take it you haven't had much of a chance to hear any of these fine women. I can think of several songs by them, right off, which are about love. Some of which I sing, too. They are beautiful songs.

There's probably also more openly gay womren in folk, or at least it seems that way, because it is easier or more acceptable for women to do so. In our society it is easier for people to pass off lesbians who are out, as "those crazy women" than it is to dismiss some guys being out. The dominant patriarchal culture feels more threatened when their male image is challenged.

Ferron Fan, you might like to check out this thread: Historical lesbian/gay folk songs?.

Emily, nice to see you on here, again! Check out the women's music festivals. Here's a great site for links: Women's Festival dot com.

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:11 PM

Janis Ian ? There goes THAT fantasy ! I learned the truth at (well past) seventeen, That love was meant for beauty QUEENS....

What do you want ? OUT DAMN SPOT ! ??? Generalizations suck... generally speaking. Moot.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Ferron Fan #1
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:49 PM

Well, for starters there's Ferron.

Then there's Heather Bishop, Holly Near, Meg Christian, Cathy Fink, Marcy Marxer, Lucie Blue Tremblay, Catie Curtis, Tret Fure, Cris Williamson, Teresa Trull, Penny Lang, Judy Small, Janis Ian, Judith Kate Friedman, Toshi Reagon...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: emilyrain
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

i haven't seen many openly queer folkies at all, regardless of gender, so i'm glad to hear that there are some at least. : ) a serious search of my mental files has turned up one lesbian folkie i used to know... hmm.

where _are_ all these queer girls? where can i find some?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

I suppose you could say the same about Afro-Americans, and then you could go into a serious soul-searching mode and moan about how folk music excludes so many minorities. I don't think that's the case - I think folkies are quite open to anyone who wants to join them. My guess is that we're low on percentages with blacks, but our percentage of homosexuals is just about even with the percentage of homosexuals in the U.S.

Most music is about sexual love. That topic is just one of many topics covered in folk music. Maybe homosexual folkies don't use their music to make a statement about their sexual orientation. Classical violinists don't, either - and that makes it very hard to tell which ones are straight and which ones are gay.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,dougboywonder
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM

I personally found it facinating to see thousands of "lager swilling" types shouting that they were glad to be gay along with Tom Robinson at Sidmouth. The persuasive power of the man is astounding...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:22 PM

I think it probably has something to do with the fact as well, that society is more acctpting, (or at least willng to ignore)of gay women than it is gay men...

A truely bazzare double standard indeed...

We can only hope that one day, the human race matures...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Goldie
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM

I think you're right in that it appears there are far more 'out' women than men, but it probably has as much to do with how an entertainer 'expresses' themself and how they choose to tell their story.

Folk music is pretty laid back and I think most creative gay men would aim their art in far more 'glitzy' musical areas.

Someone once said that gay men want to be entertained, and lesbian women want to be 'validated'. That's pretty general but I think there's a germ of truth in it.

For the last twenty or so years, young women 'singing their stories' from a stage, have been taken pretty seriously, so it means that the audience is already there.

Also, most female listeners have no problems fantasizing physical contact with a same-sex balladeer. Much harder for guys to admit to it.

Goldie

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Although I am a dyed-in-the-wool (no sheep jokes, please) hetero, I'd like to comment on this.

Generally speaking, folkies are an odd lot. The choice to embrace folk music is one of selecting a truly alternative style of music. (I remember how disappointed I was the first time I tuned in to an "alternative" music radio station and discovered that folk was not even on the menu! But I digress.) It seems to me that people who have become accustomed to looking at less common alternatives in various parts of their lives would quite naturally develop an interest in folk music.

I can offer no explanation in answer to your question as to why there might appear to be more "out" women than men around the folk scene. So far, I have seen a rather even quantity of both.

Subject: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Ferron Fan #1
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:21 AM

While attending folk festivals in the last several years, I have noticed that there are many, many out lesbians who are folk music performers and fans. However, there seem to be very few out men who are either folk music performers or fans.

Why does that seem to be the case? Why have lesbians embraced folk music as part of their culture while gay men have not?

Lisa G. (Ferron Fan #1)