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Lesbians, Gays and folk music
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: MAG Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:41 PM Any fellow Ferron fans know where I could find a copy of "Testimony?" MAG |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Janice in NJ Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:14 PM For what it's worth, the late Dave Van Ronk was arrested for his part in the historic Stonewall Rebellion of 1969, when patrons fought back a police invasion of a gay men's bar in New York City. That marked the beginning of the activist Gay & Lesbian Rights Movement as we know it today in the USA. There had long been G&L organizations, but Stonewall marked the moment from which there was no turning back. Think of it as the liberation of the Bastille, the storming of the Winter Palace, or the Easter Rising. I don't really know much about Dave's sexual orientation, other than that he was married at least twice, each time to a woman. But when it came to getting his licks in -- against the cops, that is -- he was on the front lines. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: JedMarum Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM I hadn't participated in this thread when it was active some days back, but Guinnesschick told me about it. I hae just a couple of comments; Do men in folkie circles talk viloence about gay men? I've never heard violence talk - I've usually heard talk that expresses attitudes of acceptance - I've heard humorous comments, like you might about any other social group that is based upon acceptance, but I've sometimes heard attempted humor that is NOT accepting. I think folkies generally attempt to be quite accepting of variety in people's sexual orientation. Matt - I am certain your attempt to get on the YOBB Email list has been hampered only by a lack of competent organization. I am not sure if Karen is even on the list and I have forwarded some to her. There isn't anyone I know who is actually maintaining a list; I've simply used the reply all feature. The other thing you need to know is that you are certainly one of that session's favorites! Your skill on the instrument, your magnificent voice and presentation, and your participation in the group are all very much appreciated - and appreciated by everyone in the group. I hope you know that. By the way the YOBB list has been mostly just humorous banter about the previous session or reminders of the upcoming session. I'll forward them to you as I get them, until you get added to the list. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: dougboywonder Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM In reference to "beating gay men to a pulp", I, though not actually gay, still regularly get plenty of abuse, and occational "beating to a pulp" (something which was almost daily in my school-days) living, as I do, in central Birmingham. My crime is being tall, thin and wearing clothes that actually fit me (i.e. very thin ones), I apparantly "just have the look".
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Murray MacLeod Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:38 PM I would have thought the paper and comb would come naturally as well ................. *G* Murray |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: blt Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:40 AM This has been an interesting thread, not the least of all because queer issues are raised here so little. As a lesbian in the folk world, I have to say that it has been somewhat frustrating to be regarded as only fitting in to the "Women's Music" scene. I write songs about my own experiences and talk about my life on stage but I have not tried to book myself solely through the Women's Music network. I have met gay men who play folk music, some are performers, some aren't. Some identify more as singer/songwriters. Anti-queer violence is alive and well, a transgendered woman was killed in the Portland area recently--she was severely beaten by "a blunt instrument" when the man she was with realized she wasn't physically a woman. She was also a woman of color, which raises other issues. My vision of folk music is that it sings very directly and honestly about the lives of the folk, whoever those folk are. Gay, lesbian, heterosexual, bisexual, transgendered--each of us has a story to tell, some of us tell that story from a different vantage point. Perhaps the stereotype of a folksinger is to blame--who can exist as a stereotype, it's one dimensional and dehumanizing. I think I've written this before, but one experience I had stands out in terms of stupidity: when auditioning live for a cafe (there was a time when audtioning live was how it was done), I told the manager that I was a lesbian feminist. His reaction was to ask me if I was going to sing any "dick-hating" songs. I got to use this during the gig (which, to his credit, he gave me), as I could comment on stage that his name was Richard (which it was)so maybe he had some kind of complex. The hardest aspect for me of being queer in the cyberland of folk is being invisible. Many of the threads on this forum are dominated by lots of swagger and bluster, a kind of electronic testosterone, which holds no interest for me. I look for lyrics that have a female protangonist, and I guess I look for threads in the same way. I know it's sometimes discouraging to feel that folk music is dominated by a hetero male perspective, which seems to include competitiveness and the overwhelming need to be right. I've had more male performers comment to me that I fingerpick "like a guy"--however, if there ever was an art form made for lesbians, it's fingerpicking. blt blt |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: GeorgeH Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM GUEST,dougboywonder: you forget to mention the persuasion Tom Robinson used to persuade his Sidmouth audience to join in with "Glad to be gay" . . (The Eton sagas). A great concert!! Now, have we got onto Folk Musicians and Gender Change . . (which second half used to be a speciality of the Computer Industry here in Cambridge, UK) . . Jokes aside, it's good to see a rational discussion of sexuality. And good to find something on which Clinton H and I seem to be in complete agreement. G. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: JustWondering Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM Good posts, interesting and thoughtful. I think you guys have clarified some of the issues. Sad to report that in the last couple of days, in a town near where I live, a gay man was beaten up. This is the story as was reported on the news last night: two men sitting at a bus stop waiting for a bus, holding hands, in the middle of the day. Man and woman across the street start hurling insults. Straight man eventually walks across road, and, urged on by the woman, proceeds to beat one of the gay men such that he ended up in hospital. Provocative gay behaviour? I think not. What about the role of the straight woman? Perhaps she was unsure of her boyfriends sexuality too??!! |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:02 PM No one who asks about flatulence is flirting-- |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: LR Mole Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM As in so many areas, life in a stereotyped world would be so much simpler without these dratted human beings around to disprove what we know. Some of my bestfriends are human beings. Some of my best friends are me, though. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: John Hardly Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM M.Ted, I'm okay when anyone flirts wit... ...hey.....just a doggone minnit here. You comin' on to me too???! |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM I'd mention the snouts and the beady little eyes, but I am afraid someone would start a thread calling me a specieist!! |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM Well, ya' gotta' envy those fingernails doncha'? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM Mark, I used to sleep, but gave it up(along with sex) when I became a parent-- John Hardly, I am not sure what your point is--are you OK when men flirt with you, but uncomfortable when women flirt with you? And why are you talking about farting? Spaw has the franchise-- Spaw, Are we to take this to mean that we should be more like Aardvarks?
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM Mark and John.....Good point on the power end of things and you are certainly correct. I didn't mean to come off so naive as to equate love and sex as the same thing....I don't. The point is still the same though.........So many things tie into personal relationships and the human animal adds much to the mix. Allen Sherman once wrote a very humorous, but spot-on piece about animals and sex versus the human animal and sex. One of the things he used in discussing the problems of humans and the power play end of sex and why we have so many more problems than say, an aardvark, is because we indulge in "Thinkery-Fuckery" instead of just "fuckery." Hilarious work, but he made some excellent points. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: John Hardly Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:04 AM I certainly agree with the concept that a secure man wouldn't be intimidated by a gay proposal. Actually, if I might be brutally frank in a way that will risk me coming across as arrogant----I have always been a very attractive boy/man (I guess you could ask Big Mick as he's the only 'catter who's met me....and I think he's secure enough in his manhood to confirm my assertion). I had my first gay "proposal" when I was an 11 year old and didn't even know what sex was---I ran. I do Art Fairs in two cities that are very attended by their gay population and have gotten fan mail from gays after the show expressing an appreciation for me :>). I would say that, like catspaw says, Though I might be as uncomfortable as I am if a woman flirted with me (as a married man), I guess I'm flattered that ANYONE still finds me attractive after 25 years of marriage to the same woman (who after a lifetime of farts, barf, B.O. etc. has a somewhat more realistic perspective on how truly attractive I am). Having said that... I wish there was a winsome, self-effacing, gentle way to put this so that I wouldn't come across as an arguementative prick but... I am so DAMN tired of the cliche' along the lines of, "why should it matter (what difference does it make) who one should care to share love with?". Love and sex are not synonyms. sex between a rapist and his victim is not love sex between a 12 year old boy and his 6 year old sister is not love sex between a Hoosier and his sheep is not love sex between a president and his intern is not love sex between a boss and his intimidated underling is not love.
I think the list could go on but I think we could all even agree tha sex between consenting adults isn't always love.......it often has MUCH more to do with POWER than love.......even in good relationships from time to time. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:44 AM Don't you guys ever sleep? (It's only 10:45 PM here...) Yes, M.Ted, I have, but there is a very real difference in the way men and women send those signals. I think you're exactly right, though, when you talk about the "pecking order." That sense of hierarchy, and the tendency to appease those above us and bully those below, seems to be "hard-wired" into our brains, more so in males than in females--though each of us modifies it, or reacts to it, or represses it, or acts it out, in a different way, based on our other personality characteristics, socialization, experience, etc. And, 'Spaw, I think your reaction is a healthy one, and is due to your being comfortable with who you are. (I was going to make a joke there, but I'll just let it stand.) It's the people who are afraid they might be somebody they don't want to be who are the most threatened. But you know, I'm not so sure that these encounters are always "offers of sharing love." Sometimes they're opening salvos in the war for status or power...often when the person making the "offer" feels vulnerable or afraid and needs to establish his/her "position". And that's often where the trouble starts. Man, I don't know about you, but I need a song right about now. Pete Seeger should do... Old devil time, I'm gonna fool you now Old devil time, You'd like to bring me down When I feel low, my lovers gather round And help me rise to fight you one more time Old devil pain, you've often pinned me down You thought I'd cry and beg you for the end At that very time, my lovers gathered round And helped me rise to fight you one more time Old devil fear, you with your icy hands Old devil fear, you'd like to freeze me cold When I'm afraid, my lover gather round And help me rise to fight you one more time Old devil hate, I knew you long ago Before I learned the poison in your breath Now when I hear your lies, my lovers gather round And help me rise to fight you one more time No storm nor fire can ever beat us down No wind that blows but carries us further on And you who fear, oh lovers gather round And we will rise to sing it one more time^^^ Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:47 AM Great stuff Pansy Rue!!! Ted and Mark both hit a point, so to speak, that has always made think too. The few times I've been hit on by gay men, I've felt "honored" in a way......like, I'm not on any top million list of attractive people! I mean I'm honored when anybody hits on me, male or female. I guess that bothers me because it makes it hard to understand the "fear" many have about being approached by their own sex and the general feeling that it challenges them in some way. How the hell did the world ever get so fucked up that the offer of sharing love is threatening and intimidating? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM Mark, Do you mean to say that you've never noticed when you were being checked out by women? To paraphrase a famous person, the only thing worse than being checked out is not being checked out-- On to more serious subjects, there is something that WW didn't talk about, and that is the pecking order of abuse that exists in a very real way for many men--simply put, a lot of men divide the world into the people who can beat up on them and the people that they can beat on-- Fathers, older brothers, bosses, neighborhood bullies, cops, members of the high school football team, kids from wealthier families--for some people, the list of eligible abusers can be awefully large, but there are always a few victims below them on the list-- "faggots", "niggers", "kikes", "spics" and other perjoratives aren't only insults, they are markers that are used to indicate who can be targetted--and of course, women and children tend to be at the very bottom of the pecking order-- |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Mark Cohen Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM Bravo, WW! Beautifully written and superbly true. The one point I think you may not have touched on sufficiently is how much of the violent anti-gay behavior is perpetrated by men who may sense some homosexual tendencies in themselves, and are terrified by that realization. (Some such tendencies are probably present in many comfortably heterosexual men -- it doesn't mean they are obsessed by them, or act on them, or even pay much attention to them.) I think it's more than just the fear of being weak. But we can discuss that; you may have been saying it and I just didn't hear it. Aside from that, I think you've hit it perfectly. I remember about 18 years ago visiting a friend of mine from college, who had come out in graduate school; we'd kept in touch over the years. Jim and I went out to dinner one night with his partner and four or five other men, all gay. Even though they all knew I was straight, I could feel myself being checked out. I had a very strong sense at that point of what it felt like to be a woman and be the subject of that kind of sexual scrutiny by men. I don't envy you women in the least. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: WyoWoman Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM Whoops. Sorry about the formatting problem. Anyway, I meant to use this one. (If this is more than you want to read, skip over. I apologize for the overload, but the column raised some good discussion when I ran it in our newspaper ... )
ww ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: WyoWoman Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:55 PM Here's a newspaper column I wrote a couple of years ago in Wyoming when the trial was going on for the murderers of Matthew Shepherd. ww ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Feel Some 'Man-Panic' Coming On? Some time ago my son got a job as a bus boy in a nice restaurant. He didn't know when he applied for the job that the restaurant was a watering hole for the gay community. He just knew that he was a college student, the pay was good and the hours worked for his schedule. Since he was a great-looking kid, it was inevitable that sooner or later a gay man would express an interest in him. Over the two years he worked there, several gay men variously flirted with him, hit on him or just looked at him appreciatively as he walked past with his trays of dirty dishes. Not once did Austin, who is straight, react violently, angrily or even rudely, as far as I know. He simply either ignored the behavior or said politely, "No thanks, I'm straight." The only time he got testy with someone was when the person ignored his refusal and tried to insist. Then, Austin said firmly, "Look, I said I wasn't interested and that's that." And it was. He did come away from that experience with one abiding conclusion: Most men have no idea what it must be like to be a woman and to be so constantly and openly observed. This particular bit of family history came to mind this week as I heard repeated references to the "gay panic" defense in the Aaron McKinney murder case. The logic of this defense -- used, apparently, in several cases in addition to this one -- is that the accused becomes so enraged by being "hit on" by a gay man that he flies into a violent rage and "defends" himself by beating his victim senseless, sometimes to the point of killing him. I can understand the viewpoint of the attorneys who are defending the perpetrator's lives: They want to pull out all the stops and use whatever they can to present the accused's motivations and emotional state in the most sympathetic possible light. Sometimes men do respond with panic and terror at the idea of another man being attracted to them. Sometimes the victims-who-become-perpetrators have been abused and violated by other men at some point in their lifetimes, as was the allegation by McKinney's attorneys, and they "snap" when they are aggressively approached later in life by another man. I completely understand the impulse. I just find it odd that we've never heard the converse in any defense of a woman accused of a violent crime against a man. Given the much greater frequency with which women are hassled and ogled and subjected to inappropriate touching, how come we haven't heard a lot of "man-panic" defenses in courtrooms throughout the land? Heck, given that, in this country, one woman in four has been the victim of a sexual assault, how come we don't hear reports daily of women-on-men violent episodes, with women snapping right and left in bars, restaurants and grocery stores throughout the land? Partly because we live in a land in which the very worst thing is a man being attracted to another man. Only in such a culture could the idea of a "gay panic" defense even arise. Otherwise, men would simply learn what women know, and what secure men like my son know, which is that just because someone invites doesn't mean you've been insulted. It just means they're interested. If you aren't, you can just say, "No, thanks," and go on about your business. The insult is someone who is crude, belittling, hostile, presumptuous or physically aggressive in expressing that interest. Someone who touches you before being invited, someone who won't take "no" for an answer. These someones can come in either sex. It's an interesting conundrum of modern life, isn't it? How to express interest without being taken the wrong way, how to start something to see where it goes without being accused of something you don't intend, how to introduce yourself to a stranger when you have no idea how that introduction is going to be received. We have to figure out some way to do this, otherwise we'll all just sit around making mooney eyes at each other and no one will ever end up with anyone. But it's a delicate process, requiring respect, humor and at least some measure of dignity on the part of the invitor and the invitee. (The best example I've heard was from a friend of mine who traveled to Ireland for a vacation by herself. The day she arrived and was walking down the streets of Dublin trying to find her hotel, an adorable Irishman stopped in his tracks as she walked his way, dropped to his knee, doffed his hat - tweed, of course - and said, "Lady, I would die for you." They became, um, friends. But that's another story.) Then again, if panic and rage are appropriate responses to someone flirting with us or making a move on us, and if acting on that panic and rage is somehow excusable or makes a violent attack more comprehensible, then the door ought to swing both ways. But woe unto this world if man-panic takes its rightful place in the Hall of Useful Defenses. The dating scene could get really ugly. Copyright 2000/K.C. Compton Line Breaks <br> added. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: marty D Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:49 PM Darn it Peg, you got in while I was 'cutting and pasting'. Gnu. Nothing personal towards your good self. I was responding to Peg's earlier post: "Gay parents can be as wonderful, effective, loving and nurturing as straight parents. I know a lesbian couple who just gave birth yesterday! What is all this hogwash about the species dying out? You have gay friends? Sure you do. So does Clinton Hammond." One of my real pet hates is when people go to great lengths to 'describe' a group they obviously have a lot of trouble with, and then claim to have 'good friends' who are members of that group. It happens occasionally here. Peg just said it first. marty
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Peg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:33 PM gnu; was referring to CH's hypocrisy (he has been a gay basher here in the past and now calls ssuch behavior "immature") Jack the Sailor: Clinton has also referred to the famous "peeing on boys" silliness. Bear in mind; such activity is illegal, If Ashley was "bragging" about it he was obviously doing so as a joke and for shock value, Apparently you took it a bit too seriously. Seeing the homophobic rhetoric I have in the folk community, it is not all that surprising he would poke fun at it by trying to play into it...
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM My impression has always been that folkies tend to regard societal norms with suspicion--and now that I think about it, doesn't Rise Up Singing have a bunch of songs about same sex relationships? I think there are a lot of gay men associated with one or another aspect of the folk scene, even when it is muddy(seems like there might be a whole group of men who prefer that sort of thing)--so I tend to think this is a non-issue-- The issue of Gay-bashing, on the other hand, is not a non-issue, and I am troubled quite a lot by the fact that people are creating imaginary scenarios here where it would be OK to beat a perceived gay person to a pulp-- |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM I've had close friends who were attacked for walking down the street in their own neighborhoods. Anti-gay violence is a real threat.
Does anybody know Folkies who even talk about beating up gays? I suppose that's a rhetorical question, because I think folkies are more interested in music, as I am, than enforcing societal norms. Still, I'm curious. As to the perception that gay men aren't participating in folk music, maybe it's just that the gay men who are there don't look and act like the ones on TV and in movies?
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Mr Red Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:21 PM I can think of a couple of regular folkies who never mention their status but it is rather stretching credulity to believe otherwise than "item". the point is it bothers no-one because it is not an issue to us. And rarely talked of. The people concerned are presumeably aware of the genie staying in the bottle because some anti-social person would eventually stir it if they came out. It is hard to concentrate on entertaining a crowd where there is one hidden agenda bubbling under. And entertain us they do. Men dressed all in red rather get a flavour of intolerance from non-folkies so I come with a bit of experience. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM J.W. . Here is what you said *** Here is another thing I dont understand. If a man approaches a women, all she has to do is say "No thanks, I'm not interested" if she aint. If a gay man approaches a straight man in a similar manner, why is it that some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp? *** You've made a bunch of stereotypical generalizations here. Including "All a woman has to do is say no" and since only "some" men just say "no thanks" aren't you implying that the "others" which beat gays to a pulp represents the majority. A retorical question like that implies a common social problem against which you are preaching. Fact is I am sure it depends upon the situation. A man can be rude and lude enough when he hits on a woman to get the response of a slap in the face, mace or worse. Lets say for example, you are having a few with your mates and a man, puts his hand in your crotch and says something like "Come on sugar. You know you want it." You wouldn't blame a woman for slapping him or maybe even using mace. If a woman shoves him violently away, she is defending herself. If a man does it he is gay bashing. And a man will shove another man away hard! Because men are generally larger stronger and potentially more dangerous than women and adrenaline becomes involved. I'm not saying it happens this way. I have already told you I have never seen it happen. I have heard guys sayin that they would beat up a gay who made a pass at them. But I think mostly this was akin to you mother telling you she would kill you if she ever caught you smoking. The moral is. Don't smoke! Seriously, If you've seen enough gays get beaten up that you think it is a social problem, then you no doubt know the answer to your question. If you haven't, then why ask the question? |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: JustWondering Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM Jack the Sailor - I admit stereotyping goes both ways (read the fourth sentence in my last post), but I dont think I did so here. I said that "some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp" - surely you do not consider that stereotyping? I'm interested in the difference between these two responses,and not in maligning either type of man. MTed, a good point about beatings "after consensual sex" I think your other points good also. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: gnu Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM While I'm waiting for Peg to answer, perhaps marty D could explain his/her concurrence with Peg. I am at a loss... puzzledandnowanxiousgnu |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: M.Ted Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM A couple thoughts here, first, why do people assume that the allegedly straight men say "no' and then beat up the gay man--in all to many instances, the beatings come after consensual acts-- Contrary to what many of you seem to think, there are many gay men who are part of the folk scene--if you think about it, you realize that relatively few people, regardless of their sexual lifestyle, give a a lot of outward signs of what that lifestyle is--you generally have very little clue as to whether someone is even conventionally married (even when the spouse is fairly close at hand) unless they make a concerted effort to let people know.--Why do you think people who are gay men are any different than anyone else in this regard? As performers and fans who seem to be gay, well, you don't really know ahout that either--Not all the members of the Village People were gay, even though for a lot of people, no group embodied the above mentioned "glitzy" gay male/disco lifestyle more than they did--and there were many of their fans who had not a clue that Macho Man, YMCA, or In the Navy might have had any overtones-- |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM Ok, first, check this:
I go there for the music, so I'm not there to "hit on" anyone, do the women at that session get "hit on"? Just counting the ratio of gay men to "straight" at this one session, the numbers are about 1 (that I know of) in 10, just like in the larger society, maybe a little higher.
Recently I learned that there was an e-mail list for the session. I asked to be included 3 weeks ago, and haven't been. Homophobia? I don't know. Maybe other 'catters who go to this one will comment.
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM Just Wondering, I know lots of straight men who have had passes made at them by gays, and none that have beaten a gay to a pulp. Stereotyping goes both ways. Everyone Again I say that in general, I do not believe that Gay men are drawn to folk music as entertainment. If you did not like my use of the word "glitzy", try reading my first post while substituting the word "refined" it isn't as encompassing but you may like the connotation better. Peg You said: BTW the very talented and very GAY Ashley MacIsaac was GREAT tonight at the Galway Bay Oyster Festival! ... Gay he may be, but he also brags about urinating on teenaged boys for sexual kicks. I hope his fans like him inspite of his professed sexuality. not because of it.
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: GUEST,Uncle Freddie Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM Folk music is often thought of as "rough-hewn" which is an apt description of many lesbians. It fits well with their flannel shirt and short hair cut culture. On the other hand, gay men are drawn to cabaret music and dance music. So, you are not likely to see them standing in a muddy field at a folk music festival. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:45 AM As a closet lesbian, I find the folk scene a really tempting arena. But I have never come across a gay man. Perhaps its not a closed enough community for them to feel safe in. Strike the never come across a gay man I've just remembered two years ago in the forest of dean at a christmas "folky do" I met two! |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:30 AM There are at least a few gay men in folk that I can think of, but they all fall under the rather esoteric umbrella of Pagan folk music. The majority of the lesbians I personally know in folk are also Pagans. Most of the gay men I have ever been close with were more into the club scene and all the music that comes with that. And, as cliche as it sounds, a good majority of them were also really into show tunes. I think there is a certain amount of our aesthetic taste that comes from what social unit we most identify with. My folk interests come from being a "freak" in high school and being into the works of Tolkien. I loved Jethro Tull and then Medieval music to read my books by. Later, my interest in my Scottish and Irish heritage (which sort of sprang from all the previous, believe it or not) made a clear focus to what folk music I am most attracted to. I would think that the same likely applies to those who find themselves in a mostly gay or lesbian social setting as well. That their culture helps to shape their tastes. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: katlaughing Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM Fortunato, it is unfortunate that the audience was so rude, regardless. Just Wondering, thanks for putting it so well. |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Fortunato Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM Some years ago a band I was with played a festival. We came on at 2:00pm and Holly Near was on the same stage at 3:00. At the time I didn't heard of her. During our set the relatively full stands began to swell with women, female couples. As I played the guitar through our fiddle tunes I watched this, wondering at the heavy preponderance of women. The stands filled to overflowing on the grass and all around until the audience was 2/3rds women. The newcomers talked among themselves and largely ignored our oldtime music, and slowly the applause at the end of each song came to be mixed with loud talking. Somewhat mystified, we came off stage and hung around until Holly was introduced. Then we understood. She was their own. It was homecoming, a lovefest and mutual validation. I was annoyed they didn't respect our music, but we'd had lots of validation elsewhere. Regards, Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: GUEST,Just Wondering Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM Thought I would put my oar in again. As others have pointed out, we have to be careful of sterotyping. Stereotyping leads us into a "us-them" minefield that is difficult to negotiate. I am not innocent of sterotyping (who could be, brought up in human society?) but do try hard not to. So here goes. I agree with WyoWoman that not all gay men are divas - I have known many stolid, suburban types who would prefer to stay home and weed the garden or paint the house rather than be caught dead in a feather boa, who would prefer to sing in their local church choir rather than sing pop, glitz or hard core, as one person put it. Also, there have been, since way back when, gay men who have made a huge contribution to ALL areas of culture, not just the glitzy. In addition, I have met many "fruity" "foo-foo" men (terms used by others), whom I thought gay, but who turned out to be heterosexual to the core (if there is any such thing). John Hardly implies that gay men are not interested in the folk scene because (to paraphrase) "the pickings are slim when looking for potential sex partners". This brings up another steroetype about gay males - that they are highly oversexed and are constantly cruising for sex. This may be true for a small minority (as it may be true for a small minority of straight men) but most gay men I know are either in long term monogamous partnerships or wish they were, and are really more concerned with the everyday running of their lives as are heterosexuals - paying off the mortgage, fixing the leak in the roof, and juggling who's family to have Christmas dinner with. In contrast, John Hardly says "lesbians who by nature and desired appearance do not care to fit a societal norm".... This raises a couple of points. Firstly, what is this societal norm? Secondly, there is no stereotypical lesbian, as there is no stereotypical gay man, straight man, or straight woman. Again, some gay women are very obvious, but I have known women whom I guessed to be gay on first meeting, who turned out to be dyed-in-the-wool straight, and visa-versa. People may be very surprised to learn how many "lipstick lesbians" (as gays call them) there are out there - gay women who share an interest in makeup, hairstyles, clothes etc etc that are considered the preserve of straight women. In answer to the question, how do gays without identifying secondary behaviours get to find each other - they go to clubs, join gay organisations, meet through friends, or get to know each other through regular conversation, like straight folks do. As to the question of society ignoring lesbians - maybe gay women are ignored more than gay men because women IN GENERAL are ignored - what they do is not important. Finally, I can't for the life of me understand why some straight men hate gay men so much that they would be violent towards them, sometimes to the point of murdering them. After all, shouldn't a het male welcome gay males because it means fewer men out there competing for women. Here is another thing I dont understand. If a man approaches a women, all she has to do is say "No thanks, I'm not interested" if she aint. If a gay man approaches a straight man in a similar manner, why is it that some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp? Can someone who knows anything about this enlighten me please? Just Wondering |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: gnu Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:25 AM Peg... what does that mean ? puzzledgnu |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: WyoWoman Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM Well, I'd also say that the characterization of gay men as more glitzy is not accurate, given the gay men I know. There definitely are some divas, but there are just as many linemen-for-the-county types who are plain as rain and so masculine they fooled an enthusiastically straight gal like myself, and not at all into the foo-foo stereotype. ww |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: John Hardly Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:32 PM Mark, Good and clever question! I guess I am assuming because 1. I do know a large number of gays (because I do art fairs for a living) and 2. I think it is somewhat necessary to the survival of their behavior (sorry, I feel weird with the "we" "they" thing, but I'm not, so I don't know of any less polarizing way of expressing myself). To some extent, if they do not have secondary behaviors by which to know each other, how will they find each other? |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Hawker Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:29 PM As a happily married heterosexual, I relly dont feel that it is something that I care to muse about, after all I do Hope that all the gay men and lesbian women out there are not worrying about what proportion of heterosexual people who are into folk music are male or female.........'nuff said Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Mark Cohen Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM John Hardly, if you met a gay person who didn't fit that "certain behavioral pattern"...how would you know? Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: John Hardly Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM Definitely not PC, Roger, but I somewhat disagree. I do think that homosexuals do fit certain behavioral patterns more than do most other "sub-group(s) of humanity". I would also echo WyoWoman's second paragraph as something I've found to be my experience too.(though not as a resident of a heavily gay populated city---rather a heavily gay populated business) |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM I heard Rabbi Lionel Blue on Radio 4 this morning, as I remember it he was talking about labelling people as a type and then giving the label common attributes. He was talking about all Jews being thought of as rich and the hatred that propogated in WWII (his family and those he knew were not rich) Homosexual is a label like any other, the only common behaviour is homosexuality, apart from that these people are as varied in every other sense as any other sub group of humanity So might I suggest that we may all know homosexual people, the fact that they refuse to wear the label and be 'different' in all aspects of their life means that we do not notice them, all we see is the glittzy people who like to wave their label in your face |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM happy rapper |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: WyoWoman Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM Si Kahn has a beautiful song on his "New Wood" cd about the isolation of a man in a small town who had once loved another man and when they were outed, his lover killed himself. His songs are so wonderful in a lovely low-key, compassionate/powerful way. My experience, having lived in one of the small cities in the U.S. with the largest per capita gay population (Santa Fe, NM) is that 1.) men are much more brutal to men they suspect of being gay; 2.) women-in-general might shun women they suspect of being lesbian but they don't taunt them and beat them to a bloody pulp; 3.) even if you try to socialize with either gay men or lesbians, they tend to self-select and shun YOU. My friends and I went out of our way to include our gay and lesbian friends in our activites -- not out of any sense of missionary zeal, just because we liked them, we worked with them, we socialized with each other so why not with them? But they would rarely show up at our parties and when they did, it was with their other gay and/or lesbian friends. They would stand around on the fringes, watch for a little while and then leave, usually to go to a gay or lesbian party or bar of their own. Occasionally, I would be invited to one of their parties and I would go. I was treated with respect, but definitely was held at a distance because i wasn't part of the 'family.' It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? People feel threatened, they segregate themselves to feel/be safe, then they're segregated because they only want to hang out with "their kind." And everyone can tell themselves that's fine and that's how we want it. It's this way with racial differences, too. People have such a hard time stretching themselves beyond certain boundaries. P.S. Jaze, some of us think a nekkid male body is a thing of beauty as well. Depends on the male. And on the thing, of course. ww |
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: marty D Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM Well spoken Peg. Isn't it hilarious how all those people who discuss Gay 'morality' ad nauseum have all these Gay friends? In my work I've interacted with Gay and Lesbian folk for years and never got the impression they sought out conflicted heteros as 'best friend' material. Maybe all these 'friendships' are a tad one sided. I'll go with those who think that folk music would have to be a bit more 'glitzy' and 'cutting edge' before you'll see more 'out' Gay men participating. marty
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Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music From: Peg Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM gnu: hypocrisy bugs me.
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