Why was the Allah thread deleted?

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:37 PM

Mrrzy: If we don't go to war against terrorism, how would you suggest this attack be answered? You don't seriously think we can negotiate with Terriorists do you?

DougR

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

Yesterday, someone suggested that I try to look at this situation from the point of view of the Palestinians dancing in the streets in celebration of these terrorist attacks. I pondered that for a while, and my conclusion is that their mindset and their upbringing and their beliefs are so foreign to my own that I will never understand their point of view even if I try for a lifetime.

This conclusion was reinforced last night when I read a passage from Tobias Churton's "The Gnostics", which described an Egyptian man (the one who, with his brothers, discovered the Nag Hammadi documents) attacking and killing a man, then eating part of his heart, because the man had murdered his father. The author said that taking this sort of revenge was part of the tradition of the area.

Now, I can imagine feeling the urge to take revenge for the murder of my loved one, but I can't imagine doing the murdering, much less eating my victim's organs. I realized that people in the Egypt/Middle East area are raised and taught to act and react VERY differently from the way that American society operates today.

Walk a mile in their shoes? I can't walk a step in them.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

Jim, you're obviously smarter that the average mudcat

Thank you for your post

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM

When I saw the "Allah" thread yesterday, it was obvious to me that the author wasn't a real Muslim, but was just posing as one in order to stir up anger and hatred. I know several Muslims, and no way would they ever adopt that style of being so in-your-face about their religion. If you didn't observe them carefully, you might never notice that they never touch alcohol or pork, or that they fast during Ramadan. I think real Muslims would be horrified by the use of their scripture, out of context, juxtaposing unrelated quotes from different parts of the Koran, without labeling them as such, and with no commentary or interpretation - just to stir up controversy with non-believers.

I think posing as a Muslim in this way is despicable. But it is typical behavior of trolls, who will pose as anything - Communist, Fascist, racist, you name it - to stir up rancor. And then pose as an innocent victim who can't understand why people react the way they do.

And even if the poster WERE a real Muslim, he would still be a troll.

I sent several personal messages to people who posted to that thread, warning them. I was dismayed when I saw THIS thread, started by the same person, evidently. While I wasn't looking, the thread had grown to dozens of posts, and I didn't want to spend the rest of my day sending more warning messages. I don't have time for that, and anyway it was too late.

I think deleting threads is a bad idea, only because it will inevitably lead to a "why-did-you-delete-that-thread" thread - at least under the current system. On the other hand, I have NO SYMPATHY for people who start offensive threads and then see them get deleted.

Since no one has the time to read every thread, there is no way that any policy on deleting offensive material will ever be enforced consistently. I think a better approach is to work at educating the entire Mudcat community on the importance of recognizing and ignoring trolls. When there are a large number of members who are all of one mind about this, we can police ourselves, and won't need any "policemen."

Norton1: "What is the difference between this [thread] and the other one?" Nothing much.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Terrorists in various guises have been at war with the US since November 1979. My father was killed by terrorists in April 1983, and that was only the first bombing of that particular embassy. Every time another attack occurs, I think We have learned nothing from this war. That is the tragedy. Let's start learning today.

That doesn't mean that it's time for "us" to go to war against "them" - answering blood with blood will only call for more blood. Let's try something new. Rise Above It seems to have become my mantra - do not let our govt drag us down to the level of these unmentionables.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:01 AM

Doug - I liked the approach presented by Colin Powell. This is a war, and it must be fought on all fronts - diplomatic and social, as well as military. Unless we want this to be a permanent state of war, we need to eliminate the causes at the root of the conflict and we need partners in establishing the peace. We have to stop thinking like we are not only the big dog, but the only dog that really matters.

Another thing - We have to stop treating the defense budget as an entitlement for those in the "war business" and a stimulant to the economy. If Reagan (and now Bush) had been serious about defending this country from the real threats to our security, rather than throwing bones to their backers, all the money wasted on Star Wars, stealth bombers, the Osprey, etal, we could have a properly funded, effective military and intelligence effort. And Congress - fighting base closings for strictly parochial economic reasons - shouldn't escape their share of the blame.

Rant off for now. I feel sick.

Bart

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:35 AM

it might be crap to you but it's true

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:17 AM

I meant the great abstract GUEST who is always posting.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM

Who knows who Guest Mohammed is, Earl? I think I know his/her motivation, but I have no idea who he/she is. And Mick, if you are exercised over this thread, take a look at the (paraphrasing) "Fuck the healing" thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:38 PM

So, Guest is Mohommed. That explains a lot.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:52 PM

Now you know why I get disgusted when you fall for this shite, Mudcatters. "Mohamed" and the the following "GUEST" postings demonstrate once more the inability of most to just be quiet and let these miscreants die of starvation. Once again they have baited you, and are laughing at how easy it is.

Mick

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From:
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM

My son lives 2 blocks from the WTC. He passed there this morning on his way to work. He is OK.

Removing the Allah thread was the correct action to take. The American people are not in the mood for some one to "rub our collective noses" in it.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 09:05 PM

Fuck you, Mo! You whiny piece of shit!

khandu!!!

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:11 PM

Bart, I am aware of course that we are a not a well-loved country in many parts of the world. Yet those same people who are rejoicing in the streets because of what happend today would be among the first to expect us for to come to their aid should they have a similar disaster occur. And we probably would.

I agree, however, that the first order of the day, today, is concern for the dead, the injured and their families.

You indicated that you would favor some retribution. What kind would you propose?

DougR

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Hello, Jane, I'm sure it doesnt need saying, but I very much hope he's alright.

....as for your other comments, I fully agree..though couldnt have put it as well as you have...

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Jane2001
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM

I looked in on what was the most recent thread even though it was obviously started by that nut because I felt I wanted to talk to friends. My brother is over there, 40 minutes from New York, and I just pray nobody decided to take a day trip. I also wanted to express my sympathy for our American friends, and pray, along with every other sane person that the unthinkable doesn't come to pass. And Guest(s), you're not fooling anybody except your self. Why don't you take your multiple personalities to the doctor before you strangle yourselves with your own vitrioic tongue

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:11 PM

A word to Kim C, you should not use the "B" word on an open forum. Government spies are looking for such reference.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM

DougR, there is a lot in what you imply. In several situations, mostly Middle East, no action has been taken to blunt or alleviate the frustration on the part of people who have been dispossessed or occupied, and their neighbors who rise in sympathy. An ideal situation is created for the rise of despots, terrorists and primitive fundamentalists. To prevent future attacks will take occupation of a growing area, to the detriment of our progress. A difficult task but now becoming increasingly necessary.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Doug, my friend, no matter how much money you throw at our crack military and secret services you can't build a "fortress America" strong enough or smart enough to prevent things like this from happening. There are too many people in this world who, right or wrong, hate us and have nothing to lose. Marginalized people. People who see our wealth and privilege, and who we routinely choose to ignore or insult. People whose reality is hard enough that they consider blowing themselves up along with us to be an acceptable option. This is not as simple as "turning the other cheek". But neither is it time to return salt for salt, or any other cliche or religious bromide you want to toss around. We have to stop this madness.

But this is not the time to stir things up. This is a time to see to our injured and our dead. There will come a time when we will find out who did this and what we will do in turn. But if we don't take the time to try to consider why this was done, we will face this again. And no macho posturing will change that.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

Whatever - I was told not to respond to Trolls - what is the difference between this and the other one? Peace - Steve

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Joe,
Completely appropriate. Thank you.

Art

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Cllr
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Don't give Joe a hard time, He doesn't have to justify his decisions and we should be grateful he does what he does.

Cllr

PS Good one AliUK

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

Dear Joe, I wasn't impressed with the thread on 'Funny IRA songs' but it passed the Mudcat test. Explain please?

---

It was a tough decision to make, Shields Folk. Usually, we do our best to avoid deleting things here. Maybe it was the wrong decision. I believe we need to encourage freedom of expression, but I don't think we are required to accept outright attempts to incite ethnic or religious hatred. Part of my decision had to do with the immediacy of the situation. Today is not a good day to start threads like the Allah thread - the IRA threads had to do with an ongoing situation, nothing immediate.
If you want a copy of the Allah thread, I'll send it to you.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:51 PM

I deleted the thread. I believe in free speech, but posts that incite ethnic and religious hatred are too much, especially on a day like today. If you'd like a copy of the thread, send me a personal message or an e-mail.
I would also like to ask all Mudcatters to refrain from responding to threads and posts that attempt to incite hatred.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:46 PM

We don't know yet who is responsibe for this act of terriorism. I believe it will be discovered however. Retaliation in the severest form is the only thing these bastards will understand.

Many of my Mudcat friends with whom I disagree on a regular basis, but still admire and respect, have taken a "turn the cheek" approach to these terriorists, whoever they are. Again I find myself in disagreement with them. I think it is this very "turn the cheek" attitude that has starved the budgets of the Defense Department, and the Intelligence Agencies who, were they stronger, might have been able to warn officials of this tragedy that has occured.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

Okay, Mrs. C.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST, Dan
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

And another thing, to demonstrate why motive is irrelevant. Would you have asked yourself to get in touch with the feelings of the Japanese citizenry as a result of the Pearl Harbor attack? No, of course not. It was an objective event which required a response.

That's something the last anonymous poster with the jury comment doesn't get. Look up vengeance, and understand it.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Cobble
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:36 PM

Lets just concentrate our thoughts & blessings for all the people who have loved ones missing tonight, the EM service workers trying to clear the devistation and the US government who will have a very difficult job over the next few days.....

Margaret ( Mrs. C )

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Skeptic
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:34 PM

People are the root of all evil. The rest is rationalization.

I can, with a lot of effort, try to understand the "why" of the attack. It doesn't excuse what was done.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:30 PM

Hmmmm,

Vengeance we don't need

yet...

I will respect...death of the perpetrators, with a mere "probability" standard of proof

Hope I don't ever find you on a jury, if I'm wrongly accused

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST, Dan
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM

I'm sure the owners have previously questioned the legal ramifications of "censorship." Free speech is a right protected from government interference. The owners/operators of this site have no duties to protect free speech, and do not need to tolerate a bunch of wackiness on behalf of any posters.

That said, my opinions: Vengeance we don't need. At the same time, "reasoned but merciless retaliation," as one poster stated to great outrage, sounds reasonable with emphasis on "reason." I care naught about the perpetrators' motives. I will respect severe punishment and death of the perpetrators, with a mere "probability" standard of proof, and merciless destruction of the possessions of any of their co-conspirators. It is objectively reasonable, even without vengeance.

As for America's governmental representatives looking for fewer enemies or more friends: That's silly. Everybody's friend is nobody's friend. They should do what's right.

The only moral quandary I'm feeling is trying not to be opposed to the Palestinian cause, if this was a crime desgned on their ostensible behalf. That would be wrong, as would being swayed to compassion for their cause as a result of this event. The motive is IRRELEVANT.

God bless the children of the world. And I wish peace to the hearts of everyone who is troubled.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

For the same reason you don't make bomb jokes at the airport.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: mkebenn
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

God, do not let us condemn a people because of the actions of individuals, have we learned nothing? Mike

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM

Well said, Mrrzy. "Religion is the root of all evil."

I pray, "God save us from Your followers."

And we have no idea yet as to who is responsible for the carnage or for what reason. And we really don't need any more devisiveness.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:12 PM

Sharon A,

In certain parts of the world, people are singing praises to Allah for what has happened.

They don't find it inappropriate.

Maybe spending even half a moment trying to understand thier views, might be constructive. They are humans too (whether you like it or not..)

Or has the definition of a 'troll' become 'someone I don't agree with'

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Agreed, nutty, that we don't know who's responsible for today's terrorits acts. But singing praises to Allah in the midst of the resultant tragedy is most inappropriate. Kinda like singing "Jesus Loves Me" outside a Nazi concentration camp.

BTW, just in case my previous post was misconstrued, I was referring to myself and my fellow American citizens when I said "us".

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

IGNORE THE GUEST he is obviously trying to stir up trouble here, we don't need this crap.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: nutty
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

Please folks .... remember that a lot of what you say is based on supposition
No one knows who is responsible so please don't give in to lynch-mob tendencies

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

Oh, shut the fuck up. Go tell your fucking one-liners at someone else's funeral, you insensitive asshole. That you can find it in you to be snide, condescending, patronizing and sarcastic in the presence of a bloodbath involving thousands of good and honest men, women and children is enough to solicit the most extreme form of antagonism and reveals you to be a total jerk at best. If you really want to engage in half-witted supercilious and insensitive debates, come back next year.

A

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

Very pleased to see that thread which was trying to stir up hatred against Muslims deleted. And I wish there was a way of saying that here which did not entail refreshing this thread.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM

We all really worry for the future of the world; and there are always limits to tolerance. I will pray for peace for the living and for peaceful repose for the dead.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:41 PM

Religion is the root of all evil.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Many of us are citizens of the US - who most of the rest of the world claim are the most juvenile, self-centered and egotistical people existing in the world - some even say who ever existed. so when we say we can't handle any kind of rational discussion of something, believe it.

The particular qoute - given the time of the posting - could possibly have been taken to be a deliberate "trolling" post. Though the possibility of that is of course low; given todays events - removal of the post - and thus the temptation to many of those of us with CPD (compulsive posting disorder) to react badly to it was probably in the best interest of the MudCat as a forum and as a community.

Consider it taking candy away from a diabetic child. It doesn't mean the candy per se is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Goodness, a misinterpretation (in your opinion) of a holy text

Now that's a new idea!

How many people have pro-abortion 'Christians' killed?

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

I worry for the future of the World too, when YOUR kind of sick humour, GUEST (& who the Fuck INVITED you?....if ever there was an inappropriate term.....) can be tolerated.... Think yourself lucky that this is the kind of Forum where the Owners are kind enough NOT to pass your details to the Authorities..cos I'm sure feelings are running high enough that your insane little 'joke' would backfire on you.

& dont bother coming back to me trying to point out that you really are called Mohammed, with the background that implies, because NO-ONE will believe you...

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:37 PM

Yup, that's us. Remember, not so many generations ago, Americans changed the future of the world... back in 1776.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST,AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

so do I when it is held to ransom by extremist-fundamentalists. Maybe they should actually read the koran and God's real message in it.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST,Mohammed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:31 PM

Point taken,

But if you lot are, given the prevalence of "lets get the bastards" post:

probably the most tolerant of Americans

I really worry for the future of the world

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM

Well said Spaw.

Subject: RE: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:25 PM

We're too immature and today isn't a good time to ask.........So save it for a time when we here, probably the most tolerant of Americans, are in a better mood to discuss it. If that's an impossibility for you, then fuckoff.

Spaw - Very Immature

Subject: Why was the Allah thread deleted?
From: GUEST,Mohammed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:19 PM

I can understand that feelings are running high, but deleting a thread which merely quoted a few phrases from the Koran, spacks of undue cencorship, given the way in which other beliefs are tolerated here.

You may find the beliefs and views in question abhorent, but I'd have hoped that you would have allowed the poster the permission to express them.

Or don't you feel that the membership here are mature enough to decide upon their own conclusions?

I'd be grateful for your thoughts