Just once (I'd like to see a troll ignored)

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

I'd be against our being able to edit out our own mistakes. It's cheating. MPs do it in Parliament and I think that's a good reason to avoid the practice. If you say something in haste that you regret later, apologise for it, don't pretend you never said it.

GUESTS who start threads about music should get helpful responses, normally they are just curious newcomers; GUESTS who start threads about other things should have those threads ignored, because more often than not (almost invariably I'd say), they are trolling. It might be unfair in particular cases, but on balance I think it improves things.

I'm reminded of the crack which is attached to quite a number of names of famous people: "Why do people take an instant dislike to Peter Mandelson" (Just for example.) "It saves time."

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 05:12 AM

Yes, Sean, that's an additional difficulty. Read old threads and you see people in posts referring to names of Mudcatters who don't seem to have posted there. There are Mudcatters who change their names more often than once a year.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: SeanM
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 04:54 AM

Actually, Wolfgang, if you change your 'catter ID, all your posts you've previously made change with it (I believe). I know there's nothing left under my original screen name, and my current one extends back to when I joined... That's probably the difficulty you're experiencing.

Now, one or two names HAVE been deleted - cases where the troll has decided to try usurping someone else's identity.

Other than that, any changes are likely the result of the member changing their name, not the admin Elves.

M

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 03:35 AM

John,
I think you are completely right in that respect but it would bring some new problems. About half of the posts (in mild exaggeration) refer to minor errors or inconsistencies in other posts. Imagine I clean all my errors after someone points them out they too have to monitor the effect of their own posts and perhaps delete them lest they look stupid...

The interaction would be disrupted in unpredictable ways. Recently I spelled 'Sydney' in a song lyric where I should have spelled 'Sidney'. Two posters pointed out my error. Imagine how stupid their posts would look now if I had the ability to correct my error.

IF you want to see an example of this effect look at this otherwise stupid troll thread: Hi, I'm new here.... The troll had logged in with the name 'catspaw48', the powers with the editing ability had altered the name quickly into 'CAPSPAW48' which made some late coming regular Mudcatters assume in their posts wrongly that the imposter even cannot spell. Now the name has been altered once more and several of the posts look incoherent as if the posters can't even read for they refer to nonexisting entries.

That is just to show you a negative consequence of your idea. But I agree that the positive consequence probably would be as you presume.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 05:26 PM

Here is the one way we could cut the legs out from under trolls and gain a greater degree of civility on this site---not that YOUS GIZE need civilizin'--I'm referrin' to myseff uv korse.

I think if we had the power to edit and delete our own posts we could end the problem in very short order.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM

Who is Billy Goats? Is he someone I should be avoiding? And what would Detritus et al think of all the speciesist comments on this thread?

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM

Gareth-have you ever sat under a wooden bridge with a storm force hangover and had a set of goats clogging across? Don't ask silly questions!

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM

Actually - why is it that Trolls don't like Billy Goats - says he wandering off singing "Paddy McGinty's Goat" the way me ould County Cork Granny taught me !

Gareth - in Pratchett mode.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM

JE, yeah. I think we need to stop responding to TROLLS. If we see a troll, we don't respond. If we see a question we can answer without getting pissed off, then we go for it. It's the "pissed off" part that's the real pain in the ass to read.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: GUEST,CLETUS
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:13 PM

Yer rite thair JE on thet first part cuz the first part seemed okay. Then it got to rite obvious about whut it wuz an thets when the shit got gud an nasty an we reely fed the troll.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: JenEllen
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM

Sorry Spaw, but that's horseshit.

It would be a pretty rotten place if every time someone titled 'guest' asked a question we all got defensive. We are not great, we are not all inclusive, and we certainly have the option of reading each post as if it were a genuine request for help. I saw absolutely nothing in Karen's requests that would lead me to believe trolling, maybe I'm an asshole, but the responses were MUCH worse than the intial question. If I didn't know some people as well as I do, I'd think we were all a bunch of sorry bastards.

Answer the requests truthfully, and maybe your troll will get the idea you are a stupid sonofabitch and leave, but a bunch of folks standing around fanning flames is no way to put out a fire.

~yerJE

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:44 PM

I was actually able to ignore one today, aimed at me. It takes an awful lot of effort to do it. I hope it gets easier.

~S~

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: MMario
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:37 PM

me bad. sorry.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

But we're not trying very hard.........

here we go again!

When are we ever going to figure this shit out and

JUST SHUT UP!!!!

Sweet Jesus............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

Well, we've had at least 3 threads started today that were not "controversial" but were obvious trolls and we bit on all three. And as Frank said, the other flame/troll thing keeps going on too......We just gotta' keep trying.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

Good resolutions not to respond tend to get brokem - "just this once". So I've decided on an easier version - anytime I open a non-music thread and it's started by a GUEST, even a GUEST,somebody (unless that somebody is a name I know and respect), I'll close it right away. No peeking, because once I peek I'm prone to getting drawn in.

I might miss some good threads, but there's always going to be another one soon. And if anybody spots me breaking that one, please PM me and tell me off. (Except that if you are doing the same thing, which I recommend you do, you won't know will you?)

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Pseudolus
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

I'm refreshing this simply because there is a need. If a guest/flamer shows up in a thread that has a good discussion going on in it, and he/she gets a response in the middle of that thread, they will come back and flame some more......please folks, restraint!!

Frank

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

A perfect example and thank you Wolfgang.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM

What do we do about Trolls that join in part way through another thread

Go on with the thread as if this post didn't exist.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:38 AM

Trolls are no relation to me Cobble - whether they are Nordic or not!

I thought the best way to deal with trolls was to mention big Billy Goat Gruff?

Funny story (Well it was for us anyway) - Me and Spot the Dog sat under a bridge in the lake district dipping our tootsies in the icy water to refresh them after a hard slog up and down some big lump of rock or another. Spot decides to pull his wooly hat down over his face and bellow out, in his powerful barritone, "I'm a Troll, foll-de-roll etc etc". Unbeknown to him a little girl was happily skipping down the other bank of the stream and upon seeing him went very pale and ran hell for leather in the opposite direction. Spot wondered why I was rolling about in a fit of giggles. I'd love to have known what she told her parents.

Anyway - OK - I take the pledge. What do we do about Trolls that join in part way through another thread - Like the one with his Brit comments above?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome (Neither Dwarf nor Trolll nor £$%^ing Elf I tell you!)

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: bassen
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:33 AM

Problemet er selvfølgelig at dersom jeg skriver på norsk så kommer det fremst i lista likevel ... and nobody will know what the hell I'm talking about.

But there is a solution: When exposed to sunlight, trolls turn to stone. So who can come up with a little digital, postable sunshine???

bassen

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:21 AM

Joe,

I was really tempted me to give that ...thread a second "Do you mean this thread, Joe?" post but I just could hold myself back.

That thread has no response because it is deluded and has no clear point it attacks or makes. If it was one of the usual troll/flame threads it would have the usual number of responses.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM

I for one will no longer post in response to Troll.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:12 PM

I've taken the "no post to trolls/flamers" pledge. I'm with you, Sorcha.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

But, Joe, that Troll, not a troll........(grin) We know The Troll.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:41 PM

Oh, and in case anybody wondered - the Mudcatter named Troll had the name long before Al Gore invented the internet [grin]. Troll is a real person, and he sings well and plays a mean guitar. He can appear ornery, though I think I'd prefer to say that he is an artiste of curmudgeonry.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:29 PM

Having suggested it, I have to admit that Joe REALLY hit the nail on the head with the problem--that being---it's only marginally less annoying to call up a thread with no new information on it. It still takes just as long to load (sometimes longer if it's a long'un).

I am working on a "Shock-O-Matic"tm which will use the technology that is already available through the internet (or so I've been told by "certain people" who have told me that "they" can watch me through my computer monitor). The "Shock-O-Matic"tm will be able to deliver 220-221 Volts-whatever it takes (thank you Michael Keeton/Mr. Mom)of electicity through a flamer's keypad.

I may also use it on people I just don't like.

I haven't decided yet.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Cobble
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:28 PM

Flamer, that's what my mother used to call me when I had done something wrong 40 something years ago. Troll strange Nordik Gnome. When they come on the threads, anybody know any Norweigion language so they can talk to these people and find out what they want, oh well nearly time for bed.

Goodnight Cobble.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

I think there are a good number of people who get annoyed with wholesale refreshing of threads. I don't think it's a good idea. Although I suppose it may work in limited circumstances, it generally doesn't. Now, if you want to resurrect a music thread by adding substantive information, that's helpful. One Mudcatter has made a practice of answering unanswered music requests that go way back to 1996. He responds with actual lyrics, not with just a "refresh."

Same is true for responding to flamers and trolls - although it may be helpful in limited circumstances, it generally doesn't work. Yes, I know that sometimes I respond to flamers and trolls myself and that sometimes it doesn't work - but I think I'm in a bit of a different position.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:01 PM

Yes Susan, and indeed that did happen the otherr day on several threads, but also consider this: 1) The troll can easily refresh. 2) I had just posted lyrics for a Guest and all of a sudden the thread was buried way down the page. If they didn't know much about the 'Cat they may have started another when not finding theirs.

I'm not averse to, really I LIKE, refreshing old threads, but as a way of dealing with trolls.....don't work.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

I disagree, some-- sometimes good people seeing the new position of a few music threads of interest have responded just as though one had changed the subject at a party. When this has been the result, it has been because one of us woke up and said to oneself, "Crap! I'd rather discuss music!" The people posting the flame thread have tended to dwindle to a trickle when this has worked.

~S~

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

John, as Joe said...Don't work. Geoff up there tried it the other night and much as I might feel for his efforts, it didn't work then......and it didn't work all the dozen or so times it's been tried before.....did it myself once. The troll just refreshes it at his leisure.

One key thing we all can do:

DON'T RESPOND!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, John, some people think a good way to respond to flames is to refresh a lot of music threads. Doesn't work, though - because the flamer knows he's getting the attention he (or she) craves. The best thing - the only thing - is to completely ignore flamers and trolls, not to react in any way.

But as for what Sorcha was wishing for in the first post, about a troll starting a thread and not one person responding - it did happen, about ten days ago. Somebody started a particularly disgusting thread. Pene and I were tempted to delete it before anybody posted to it, but we decided to watch it and see what happened. Well, it still has no responses. For once, I was able to be proud of Mudcatters.

If you think I'm going to identify the thread in question, you're crazy.

A couple of weeks ago, some indignant poster demanded that Mudcat publish something to state that Mudcat did not support an anti-Semitic message that was posted at the beginning of a thread. I actually thought of complying, but I don't think I did. Such a statement would be feeding attention to an attention-craving troll or flamer. If you see a thread with one racist message, and absolutely no replies after it, you'll see how powerful silence can be.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:07 PM

has anyone ever tried to actually bump a flame thread off the front by refreshing all the other front page threads?

I like a good heated discussion as much as the next guy but must admit that my dial-up connection doesn't have the speed to spend time here much anymore...I can't get past the UTTER bullshit that I find AFTER I've prompted a thread.

maybe my absence makes it less trafficked for the faithful and that's a good thing...

hey.

just a darn minnit...so this has been a plot to rid you of me all along...

Hmmm?

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:29 PM

agreed Sorcha - but I may have tripped into one today (Bin Laden Not Guilty). I've pretty much stayed outta the political threads lately, but found that one (probably a flame) too close to a joke (I presume) email I recieved, and felt I had to respond.

Somehow, the threads some of us wish would just be left alone, aways seem to get one/some of us to respond, even when we know better!

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

I still think Rasputin got a raw deal.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: UB Ed
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM

So..how much rust should you let build up on your elixer guitar strings before you replace them on you best guitar in the freakinn world (Taylor/Seagull) (Neil Young should know the answer to this, rust that is) and by the way, is it ok to sing Lennon's "Imagine" even with all the pinko commie references becuase you hurt so freakin bad and were just able to shed tears on Saturday? Green M&M's Baby!

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:03 PM

I'll take one of those myself! Sleeping is not my strong suite and lately it's been worse. I remember though when Tristan was a baby, I'd have given anything for what little I get now.

Wesley, that's exactly it. We have tried (and I have been guilty of) a whole boatload of ploys from sarcasm to jokes to topic changes to warnings as you did. Although they may be fun, none of them work because no matter how you cut it, you feed the troll/flamer. Let's face it, we all love to talk/write and responding because we are opinionated is natural.....and we're prime ground for the trolls who know it too.

The other aggravation is when the troll comes back if he/she doesn't get enough response, with something more reasonable or indeed, contradictory....AND WE BITE ON THAT!!!! Many say that if it's a good post, it's a good post......bullshit. A troll (often an unnamed or simpleass name Guest) is a troll is a troll.

No, we don't have to cut out unnamed Guests, but they pretty much inhabit the BS threads and we can still be welcoming in the music threads. Just try to be aware as I am that not all Guest are a problem, but also resognize the troll for what it is and don't bite. Don't bite. Don't bite. Don't bite.

JUST SHUT UP, no matter what.....Just shut up!!!!! This isn't any easier for me than for you, but we all have to do it or this crap will keep going on ad infinitum. At least give it a try, huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

Ironically my dream is that one day I'll get a week of good night's sleeps!
With the twins falling off things and heading to casualty etc. I'm usually too knackered to sleep properly.
The other week I fell into the troll trap and got extremely pissed off as a result. Many thanks to Spaw for gently easing me away from rash responses.
If any of you can get a good sleep - please have one for me - I'll repay the favour some time!
Quack!
GtD

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

This past week I was the second post in a thread that I thought was a flamer and requested that no one else post to it. Now it's up over 75 posts. I don't think I'll try that again - it seems to have backfired on me.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Pseudolus
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

I'm right behind ya Spaw. (probably not a smart move on my part!!) No posting when they're started, no reacting when they join in, and no joking no matter HOW tempted. It's the only cure.......

Frank

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:50 PM

Kendall, the problem really is that ANY reaction is enough to keep them going and bring on more. The only way to stop it is to not feed them in any way. Just don't play. Nothing else works.....PERIOD.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: GUEST,Its all relative
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

There is another thread on this board in which people are defending the right to post/discuss certain types of songs that others find offensive. Shouldn't this extend to threads as well. It seems like a lot of people are labelling certain threads as trolling simply because they disagree with it, or in some instances because they simply don't seem to comprehend the person's point. Some of you might be well served by the logic that it is best to remain a fool in silence than to speak up and give yourself away....

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:31 PM

In a past relationship, whenever a discussion got too heated, one of us would say "Isn't it awful what they did to Marie Antoinnett"?

How about we try it on trolls and flamers?

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:19 PM

Ah poop - now what would we have to look forward to? If no one ever posted to a flamers thread, or a trolls, all we'd have is . . . . . . . .

Like I said - Ah poop. Even I am learning - THAT is the most amazing thing - Peace, Steve -

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:16 PM

Meet me tonight in Dreamland
Meet me tonight alone
Meet me in Dreamland, beautiful Dreamland..."
Unfortunately it burned to the ground when some faulty electric wires set a bucket of tar on fire. But that's another story. Or maybe not.

I did have hopes that that particular thread would fade away with neglect.

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

Put a clamp on your nose too Frank.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:00 PM

I have a dream that everyone who ever left Mudcat comes back and stays-- wiser, gentler, and more musically gifted than ever.

~S~

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM

Hi Mrrz.....Nathan's right. I love Talkin' Blues and this has always beena favorite. Want the whole thing?

**********************************************************

TALKIN' WWIII BLUES........Bob Dylan

The other night a crazy dream come to me,
Dreamed I was walkin' into World War Three,
I went to the doctor the very next day
To see what kinda words he could say.
He said it was a bad dream.
Seay. "I wouldn't worry 'bout them old dreams too much though,
They're all in your head.

I said, "Hold it, Doc, a World War passed through my brain."
He said, "Nurse, get your pad, this boy's insane,"
He grabbed my arm, I said "Ouch!"
As I landed on the psychiatric couch,
He said, "Tell me about it."

Well, the whole thing started at 3 o'clock fast,
It was all over by quarter past.
I was down in the sewer with some little lover
When I peeked out from a manhole cover
Wanted to see who turned the lights on.

Well, I got up and looked around
Up and down the lonesome town.
I didn't know which way to go,
So I lit a cigarette off a parking meter
And I walked on down the road.
It was a normal day.

Well, I rung the fallout shelter bell
And I leaned my head and I gave a yell,
"Give me a string bean, I'm a hungry man."
A shotgun fired and away I ran.
I don't blame them too much though,
I know I look funny.

Down at the corner by a hot-dog stand
I seen a man, I said, "Howdy friend,
I guess there's just us two."
He screamed a bit and away he flew.
Thought I was a Communist.

Well, I spied a girl and before she could leave,
"Let's go and play Adam and Eve."
I took her by the hand and my heart it was thumpin'
When she said, "Hey man, you crazy or sumpin',
You see what happened last time they started."

Well, I seen a Cadillac window uptown
And there was nobody aroun',
I got into the driver's seat
And I drove down 42nd Street
In my Cadillac.
Good car to drive...after a war.

Well, I remember seein' some ad,
So I turned on my Conelrad.
But I didn't pay my Con Ed bill,
So the radio didn't work so well.
Turned on my record player
It was Rock-A-Day, Johnny singin',
"Tell Your Ma, Tell Your Pa,
Our Loves Are Gonna Grow Ooh-wah, Ooh-wah."

I was feelin' kinda lonesome and blue,
I needed somebody to talk to.
So I called up the operator of time
Just to hear a voice of some kind.
"When you hear the beep
It will be three o'clock,"
She said that for over an hour
And I hung it up.

Well, the doc he stopped me just about then,
Says, "Hey I've been havin' that same old dream,
But mine was a little different you see.
I dreamt that the only person left after the war was me.
I didn't see you walkin' around nowhere."

Well, a lot of times gone by and now it seems
A lot more people been having them dreams.
Everybody sees themselves walkin' around with no one else.
Well, just shows you can fool all the people some of the time,
And you can fool some of the people all of the time.
But you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
"You can be in my dream....if I can be in yours,"
I said that.

**********************************************************

Spaw

Subject: RE: Just once........
From: Pseudolus
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM

Isn't there a joke there? Three guys walk into a thread, you'd think one of 'em woulda seen it!!

OK, Spaw, I'm gonna join ya but I'm keeping my eyes closed!! :)

So if y'all had a dream, what would it be? Excluding things that can't come true e.g. we would all like for Tuesday's events to have never happened etc. But considering where we are right here, right now, what are ya hoping for??? I for one could use a positive look at the future for my 10 and 12 year old girls....

Frank