Are you scared of planes now?

Subject: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,prefer to be anonymous (that's allowed?)
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM

I'm not too scared to travel, and would be happy to jump in a plane today (as long as it was going somewhere nice)

However, living near an airport (Manchester, UK) I find myself completely freaked as I watch the planes flying over my house, coming in to land.

It's not that I think they'll hit me, but it just reminds me of last week too much.

Interested to know what others here think.

Anon.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM

I was afraid of planes before. Now I simply feel vindicated. (Confirmed airplaneophobe)

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Penny S. at work
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM

Last weekend, after a gap of a few days, the Heathrow planes started overflying South London again, on a slightly different line, and seemingly rather lower than before. And everyone in the street I was in (not many) was looking up rather surreptiously, and then commenting shamefacedly about doing so.

Penny

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM

No, I am not scared of planes, they are still the safest form of transport,

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

automobiles run into each other in traffic every day....are you 'freaked' when you you drive? There is not enough time in the world to live in constant fear of everything dangerous. If you have taken all the reasonable precautions YOU can take, don't dwell on it.

There ARE people who choose to live in seclusion away from everything....but they don't have doctors nearby in case of emergencies. You either control your mind, or it controls you.....

not very soothing am I? sorry...I don't know what else to say

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM

Sure, I'd get on a plane. I've been on a plane many times before and I really have no qualm about getting on a plane again. The last time I flew was just after the awful ValuJet crash, and while I was on the trip, the TWA flight went down! So I have flown with the full knowledge that disaster could happen. I figure if it comes my time to leave this Earth there ain't gonna be no way for me to avoid it nohow.

That being said, however, unless we're talking overseas travel, I prefer to drive. I like being able to stop whenever I want, wherever I want, look at the scenery, take pictures, eat something besides Diet Coke and peanuts, etc. Plus nowadays I don't think they're going to let me on an aircraft with my knitting.

I talked to a guy last night who had flown into Nashville from Colorado Springs yesterday. He said they didn't open his guitar case. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:06 PM

The safest form of transport...

Ya... but if a car crashes, they ask, "Was anybody hurt?"

If a plan crashes, they ask, "Was anybody identifiable??"

---George Carlin--

I have always prefered flying after a few pints and a couple of whiskies... I'd much rather drive, if at all possible...

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:07 PM

Bill D, I'm afraid of cars, too. Pretty pathetic, isn't it? However, I have a good reason to be afraid of cars. I've been in five car accidents. I don't enjoy that sudden impact feeling at all.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

We could have had a really efficient high-speed passenger train system by now, with electronic interlocks to keep from getting two trains on the same track or go around a curve too fast...you'd still have a few wrecks, but I bet you could make it a good deal safer than either cars or planes. And it couldn't be either stolen or hijacked. And no more airport parking.

But I guess everyone thought trains were old fashioned.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

I love trains. I don't know about the high speed ones, though.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

For quite a few years, I worked a job that required me flying a lot......Like 4-5 flights every week. I enjoyed flying and the only thing that bothered me then (and now) was the deteriorating condition of the planes themselves. The FAA has had a long term problem in promoting aviation and not safety.

If I had the same job today, I'd still fly. Right now especially, things are probably safer than in the past 30 years. But I tell ya' what.......I will never look at a plane again without seeing that second plane crashing into the WTC.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

No.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:43 PM

I always was scared of planes. Nevertheless, I do take them when there's a good reason to. I don't see that changing.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM

I will fly with no fear at all. The only difference - If I am involved in a hijacking I will assume the worst. In the past, I just figured it was a way to earn frequent flyer miles. I had a friend on one of those hijacked planes that flew all over Europe in the 70s. She put in for the extra miles but I don't know if she ever got them. It is somewhat comforting to hear and see planes taking off and landing at La Guardia. Another "normal" thing.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

I'm not afraid of planes, I'm afraid of landings, and have been for years. Now, I don't think I'd be afraid to fly, I just can't imagine it would be worth the trouble for anything under about a thousand miles... I had been planning on flying into Boston for my reunion next Spring, and I'm already thinking I'll drive instead, even though the last time took me days, and then the boys were still in diapers and I didn't have to stop for them to pee... I hear on NPR that the trade show industry is taking a huge hit as vendors, exhibitors and participants alike are staying home in droves... wonder if they'll ask us to take a train to New Orleans for our next one? I've got a song about that, at least!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jenny the T
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

Afraid to fly? Nah.

I don't enjoy riding on the airlines, though--didn't before, and won't now. I much prefer Flying is only really pleasurable for me if I'm in the cockpit, driving.

I do think the recent tragedy highlighted the folly of relying primarily on one form of long-distance transportation. With the airlines shut down, the Postal Service was in a frenzy, trying to figure out how to move the mail. Business travellers were stranded. Even baby chicks (usually shipped, one day old, via air to the growers) died by the thousands, stranded in airport warehouses.

We need a viable rail system in this country. Not as a replacement for the airlines (though I'd sure love to travel by train), but as a companion to them. Putting all your transportation eggs in one basket is no recipe for success.

JtT

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:20 PM

I don't think this trauma was caused by airplanes, exactly!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:01 PM

From Downtown NY, No. Like the buzz bombs, in the hours after the attack, when I heard a plane go overhead (airforce jets, as it turned out) and there where rumors that there was still highjacked airplanes out there, in New York I saw no panic, only concern that others may be in danger. For the most part, I saw a lot of sad, concerned, brave folks. Larry

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM

I'm not scared of planes as such - I'm terrified of crashing to my death.However, it's apparently quicker than going into hospital for 'tests' and some other methods....... My 2 cents

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

I'm not afraid of flying but I really prefer to have my pocket knife in my pocket than not.

troll

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

Midchuck, I also prefer trains to planes. The hell of it is, they dont go to England.

I have never been a comfortable flyer, and this has not increased my desire to fly. However, I will not let my reptilian brain keep me from that trip to the UK next month. Two of the airlines have sent me messages to tell me about security. There will be armed Sky Marshals aboard, and, I doubt that anyone can get a knife past the security now. My reason says go. I'll go.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:16 PM

I'm flying tomorrow (Dallas to Boston). Never was scaredof flying, and still am not - but have made sure all the wills, insurance, docs etc are in order for the kids ... just in case.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:26 PM

I work a stone's throw from Miami International Airport, and I have always really enjoyed seeing the big 747's landing and taking off, sometimes so low overhead it seemed like you could almost touch them.

It was like a ghost town last week while the flight embargo was in effect, and it is so good to see things (almost) back to normal.

As a enthusiastic amateur of statistics, I have no problem with flying. Apart from the fact that I actively enjoy the experience, statistics does show that flying is unquestionably the safest mode of transport. I have no qualms either about my two sons coming out here, always assuming BA haven't gone bankrupt before then.

However if my luck does run out and I am ever on an aircraft which has been hijacked for a suicide mission, you better believe my last cellphone message before we crash will be to the FBI and the posthumous text will read "We've been hijacked by Islamic fundamentalists, THEY'RE DRUNK OUT OF THEIR SKULLS AND THEY'RE RAPING ALL THE WOMEN"

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:32 PM

No. In fact, if I had to die in either a plane crash or a car crash, I'd go for the plane.

In a car, I'd probably end up on the road in some undignified position, with people gawking and taking photos to send to rotten.com. Plus, I'd be more likely to survive for a while, which would suck.

But on a plane, I'd probably die quickly, and my family couldn't do an open-casket thing against my wishes. And with a high-profile death like that, people would send lots money to my survivors.

Of course, dying either way would be awful.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:33 PM

Murray: Uh, why?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

Self-evident LR surely?

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Oh, because you're a racist and an anti-Semite? OK.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:47 PM

As it happens, LR, I am neither racist nor anti-Semitic.

If you really are too thick to figure out what I meant then I will spell it out for you.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol. Therefore it would ruin their credibility in the Islamic world if it were believed that their nefarious misdeeds wqere committed as a result of being intoxicated.

I trust you can now work the rape bit out yourself.

Sheesh ......

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:08 PM

Well, Murray, my point was, judging by your entries on this thread and on some previous threads (mostly recent ones), what would be "self evident" is that you are a racist or an anti-Semite. And, no, I don't necessarily think you ARE a racist or anti-Semite. I'd like to think that you're just a guy with a narrow view of Islam who likes shooting off his mouth...

But what are the things that might make someone think that you ARE a racist, you might be heard to ask? (Though I didn't hear you ask...) Your links to anti-Islamic websites, and comments supporting a horribly racist conservative editorial, for starters. Ah, and these statements:

1. "The probability of any hijacker being of any other ethnic background other than Middle Eastern is zero. Therefore I would propose that ALL passengers of Middle Eastern background should be subjected to special security treatment, yes, discriminatory treatment while on board an airliner. They should have to check in well in advance, undergo thorough body searches, and should be confined to one area of the airplane under constant supervision. Like having to piss with the door open."

2. "I have to confess to having a deep, deep dislike of Islam based on my experience of meeting many of the members of the so-called "Royal Family" of Saudi Arabia..."

So... you said yourself on a recent thread that you're not afraid of being labelled a racist. But if your are NOT a racist, how do you justify these statements? (Which of course you don't have to, but I can ask:)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

...and you can't take this discussion to PMs to sort out?....

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:26 PM

Right on, Jenny the T. I've got lots of flying time in large and small aircraft, but I consider commercial air travel to be the most expensive way to be uncomfortable without having major surgery. If I've got to go somewhere and flying on an airliner is the only way to get there, I'll do it. But I surely don't enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

BillD. - are you flying to the Getaway or driving? I would like to thank you in person for being the voice of reason throughout this past week.
Mary

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: gus C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

I think there is a new truth that hasn't really been widely considered- Airline Hijacking is a thing of the past. Not only because of new security measures, but, because a terrorist can no longer wave a knife or Gun in the passengers faces and intimidatingly tell them "don't do anything stupid and you'll be OK." No one believes that anymore, Passengers will respond like cornered animals fighting for their lives. The downed plane in Pittsburg was a result of knowing what the other planes had been used for, you don't need a cell phone to know what those planes were used for now.would be Hijackers are likely to not even try , and if any do they willmore than likely be stopped, if not by the Passengers and crew , then they are likely to meet jet fighters with orders to fire. I Bet no one Hijacks an airliner for at least 20 yrs, The Passengers and crew have the upper hand now, They outnumber the hijackers and they will consider themselves already dead if they don't take action and attempt to overtake the hijackers.Hijackers depend on intimidation to control the situation you can't intimidate people who see stopping you , at any cost, as their only hope of survival.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

Why should anyone be scared of airplanes? As long as they are well maintained, have lots of fuel, competent pilots and have sufficient air in their tires, they are as safe as any mode of transportation. Probably safer.

Now Terriorists. That's a different question.

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

I was scared to fly before. (well, scared to crash actually)

Now? I think I would actualy feel safer in terms of terrorism, oddly enough...but that was not what frightened me before; it was mechanical failure. I still fear that.

But I fear being in cars, too. And I fear being a pedestrian espcially in Boston.

Ya can't live in fear. We're all gonna die and most of us won't know exactly when. I would prefer not to go screaming, I know that.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM

Bill D, I take your point about PMs, but since my integrity was questioned publicly, I feel I have to respond publicly to LR. This once at least.

Firstly I am no racist and have never made a racist statement in my life. My suggestions about profiling Middle Eastern passengers make perfect sense from a management point of view, and if we accept that one of the priorities in this situation is to get airline travel back to normal, it will become imperative to devote greater care to screening the section of the population which contains the next wave of potential terrorists.

If the Scottish National Party ever started a campaign of international hijacking and bombing to draw attention to their cause, then I would fully expect as a Scot to be subjected to selective security procedures, and you wouldn't hear me bitching about it.

If the Japanese ever decided on a belated resumption of their hijacking activities I would advocate the same security measures in respect of Japanese nationals. And the same would go for any group which posed a threat, no matter what their color race or creed. If such procedures had been implemented by AA at Logan on 9-11 then we would not be having this discussion.

Regarding my dislike of Islam, I believe that any religion should be judged by the behavior of its practitioners rather than by quotations from whatever piece of fiction they profess to follow. In the case of Islam, I have witnessed first hand the hypocrisy, drunkenness and whoring of the Saudi so-called Royal Family, and we have all witnessed an altogether more disturbing manifestation of Islam in action. You ever see a Unitarian suicide bomber? But race never even enters the equation.

I will however settle for being a "religionist"

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

I've been scared of planes since STan Rogers died. This didn't help.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:26 AM

That's interesting Peg, that as far as fear of terriorists is concerned, you feel safe now than before. What do you attribute that too? Increased airport security? Possible Air Marshalls? ?

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:16 AM

Nope.... not at all.

If my time is up, it's up.

E

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:55 AM

Well the airlines, especially in the U.S., are certainly convinced that we're all afraid of flying now, since their patriotic response to this tragedy has been to promise 100,000 immediate layoffs.

And despite everyone's absolutely correct sentiments that the passenger rail services should be developed and improved, not degraded and overpriced, this hasn't happened.

The current conventional wisdom that nobody wants to fly anymore, is going to be yesterday's news by...next week or so. (The current rumour that a follow-up action was planned for Sept 22 will be the turning point; if it doesn't happen things will normalize pretty quickly; if by chance it does, people will really be scared)

Me, I haven't been off the ground in ten years. But I'll be going soon enough...

Willie-O
saving for Scotland

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM

NOW? Always! Doug mentioned that he wasn't afraid as long as the planes are well maintained. I don't trust the airlines to put the money into maintenance. Flying is inconvenient and tiring. Flying is not necessarily faster and now, with the new security systems that is even more true than before.

Consider, I used to fly to Philadelphia on business from Maine quite often. I live 45 minutes from the airport. You had to arrive 1 hour early to go through ticketing, baggage check, etc. I always had to take a flight with a change of planes. (If I wanted a direct flight I had to be at the airport at 5:00 AM for the only direct flight of the day.) The flight, including changes, generally took 3 to 4 hours. then I had to arrange my rental car, check in to the hotel, and I could finally relax. Total trip time 6 to 8 hours. If I rented a car in Maine and drove to Philly I can leave when I want, drive for 8 to 9 hours and arrive directly at the hotel. With a good audio book and good music, I don't have to jostle along, herded with the other passengers, I can stop and stretch when I like, and the whole thing is cheaper than the air fare. Go figure!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

I checked on flights to teh Getaway and they've gone up in price since ther Tragedy. So, I checked the train, yesterday. Round trip for two, from Denver to Chi, to Philly, to Baltimore: $718!! And, that is without a sleeping berth.

This country NEEDS to have mroe rail service, to more places, and be affordable. Lacking that, I guess we'll have to fly even though I do not enjoy it. I am not afraid to, howevere.

kat

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM

CarolC. I think that anyone who isn't scared of planes and automobiles isn't paying attention. I use both but I'm wary. I think you're ok.

And yes, I look up now when I hear an aircraft, and lots of stuff can go through my mind. None of it is good.

regards, chance

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM

Murray writes: statistics does show that flying is unquestionably the safest mode of transport

That can be and has been questioned often in the risk assessment literature. It depends upon the definition of 'safety'. You may be surprised that there are more than one definition but there are. Among several statistics used are 'deaths per distance', 'deaths per time', and 'deaths per use'. Flying is the safest if you use 'deaths per distance' as a measure (flight lines do that, of course). Flying is far from being the safest if you use other less often cited definitions.

I once did a calculation just for the fun of it and for instructional purposes when Challenger exploded. I calculated the safety of American space shuttle flights by using the definition of safety airlines use, namely deaths per distance. Flying space shuttle was about as safe as driving a car in Germany at that time. So why did the NASA stop flights for some time and did reconsider safety? Because they used another statistic, namely 'deaths per use' and in that statistic space shuttle flights were extremely unsafe.

I do not want to say that one of these measures is better than the other. Each of them has its place under the appropriate circumstances. But to say that flying is unquestionably the safest is not correct.

For those of you who are scared of flying, I can only offer you a good rational reason for your fears. The safety statistics from the airlines, 'deaths per distance' are thought to compares different means of transport over long distances and are fine in that context. Your personal fears do not compare one intercontinental flight with the next twenty years of cycling near your home (in order to come to the same overall distance). You are bothered by the question 'will I come out here safe after boarding', so you are interested in the statistics of 'deaths per use'. And in that statistic, deaths per use, air travel is by far not the safest. Same for the 'deaths per time' statistic by the way: Your probability to die within the next hour of travel is higher in air travel than it is in long distance car travel. No wonder your level of fear is higher.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

At least you will never see terrorists crashing a fully loaded train into the center of New York or the Golden Gate Bridge.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:26 PM

Probably not, but I still remember the hijacking of a train with several dead in the Netherlands in 1977 by a terrorist organisation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner at work)
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

Peg. I would prefer to go in my sleep too; just like my dad, not screaming like the passengers in his car. lol Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

DougR; yeah, that, plus the old chestnut of lightning not striking in the same place twice...perhaps that is disingenuous of me.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

Wolfgang, I don't want to minimize a tragedy but "several" dead is a lower cost than approximately 6,000 dead.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

It's the cost of the ticket that'll keep me from flying more than one round trip this year.

Terrorists?

Terrorists would have a hard time doing more than crashing on a flight where the hostages expect to die. I think the Bin Laden people are few enough that they won't waste their suicide attackers on crashing planes into empty fields in the near future.