Are you scared of planes now?

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: mooman
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

Never liked planes but have to use 'em regularly! (Travelling at close to the speed of sound in a 100 ton pressurized metal tube five miles above the ground? No... best not too think too hard about it!)Just back from a quick work trip to Northern Italy today and recent horrific and tragic events will certainly not prevent me from travelling.

mooman

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Wolfgang, you are of course perfectly correct, there is no "unquestionably" about it. And I am aware that the statistics can be interpreted differently according to your agenda. "Death per use" is not really an apt measure either since what you really want to know is "what is the probability that this 757 will crash, either on take-off or on landing,?" which are the only times when there is a risk factor (unless the unthinkable happens) How many actually perished in previous crashes is not really statistically relevant.

I would query your assertion that the probability of dying in the next hour is greater in air travel than in a car. Only if you are less than an hour from touchdown.

The bugger of it all is that there is nothing you can do in a plane to affect your chances. At least in a car you can minimize your risk. I mean, my chances of dying in a car are much less than those of some of the idiots who pass me at 80mph every day ..............

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:19 AM

I would query your assertion that the probability of dying in the next hour is greater in air travel than in a car.

Murray, you're completely right to question that assertion for it depends how you look at it whether it is true or not. The way you look at it it is most probably not true. The catch I had built into my assertion, however, was 'long distance car travel', the bit you have not cited. Long distance car travel is usually much safer per time than short distance car travel for a load of reasons. That is what makes the assertion in my version true under most circumstances. But I admit there are circumstances (way of defining things, what to look at, which country you look at etc) under which the assertion is not true even in my version.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:39 AM

According to a recent survey, people are saying they are not afraid to fly, but, they prefer to be home waiting for the other shoe to drop. Peg, lightening DOES strike more than once in the same place. The Empire State bldg. has been hit hundreds of times. Consider this; when a plane crashes and kills a hundred people, we get upset. Yet, we stand still for 50,000 car accidents per year, half of which involve alcohol. Are the people in that plane any deader than the ones in the cars?

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Nope. Not afraid to fly anywhere as long as there's a gig or a vacation at the other end. I love flying, airline food, in-flight movies, cabin-crews, my fellow passengers, Southwest Airlines peanuts and the antics of their staff, I love it all!

Seamus

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

Jeeze, Kendall, will you stop trying to scare Peg? She SAID she was feeling a bit more secure than before, and here you come along and rain on her parade. What a guy!

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 03:40 AM

Well, I wasn't afraid to fly before, well maybe never 100 percent comfortable even before 911, but I sure as hell won't fly now, especially over American airspace.

The recent announcement today of the expanded NO FLY ZONES over strategic sites in the US, such as dams and stuff (and who knows what else) has seen to that. The thought of being on a commercial flight that runs into bad weather and has to alter its course slightly and is gunned down by "friendly fire" has managed to smash the last vestige of confidence I might have had. Guess I'm not going to Arizona for a visit this fall after all.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: sophocleese
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

It may be safer in terms of incidents of air rage. I just heard a story of a plane being escorted back into the airport by fighter jets and then boarded by a S.W.A.T. team. All because a drunk was smoking in the loo and refused to come out. I mean that's getting really close to dying for a smoke. The poor twit just didn't realize how nervous people are at the moment.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:56 AM

Are you scared of planes now?

Nope! Flying to London next month as a tourist!

I refuse to be intimidated!!

Rob Dale

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Flying High
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

I am scared shitless of flying under any circumstances. However, after about 8 mixed drinks (I highly recommend) Seagram's 7 and 7-Up) it is bearable. After 12 drinks, i would get on the damn plane even if Bin Laden was the pilot. On a more serious note, I have heard that ticket prices remain high. I would think that the airlines would offer dirt cheap rates which would get some of the slightly reluctant people on the planes. I think that other people would start following suit.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

Non-stop return to London England for $460, booked 3 weeks in advance. Prices are actually quite good the same ticket last year this time would have been $650-$800

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:12 AM

Kendall, if 50% of the traffic fatalities involve being drunk, then 50% involve being sober. Sounds like you have the same chance either way. (Wolfgang, don't explain it, it's a joke)

Far more interesting statistics are found, and not open to interpretation, by checking the age of the current fleet of airliners. Even the biggies are still flying 25 year old equipment. Although we at times tend to think the 747 is still a new plane (and there are some new ones of course) there are many of the original production still in the air.....at least for now. Even worse, the 727 is still in service with many of it's original number flying overhead right now. What makes the 727 worse is that it's numbers of take-offs and landings are far greater than the 747. That is to say that the 727 lands and takes off a lot more because of it's sshort duration flight usage and the real airplane killer, pressurization/depressurization, has occurred much more that it does on a 747.

The FAA in their infinite wisdom has allowed the airlines to promote aviation instead of safety and many older jets have wound up with start-up airlines where they get the double whammy of age with reduced and dubious maintenance. It's interesting that the FAA would allow this, but it's only a small portion of the way they rate an airline. More emphasis is placed on "on-time" performance to satisfy the flying public ("If you've got time to spare, go by air.") than on the unscheduled landing performance or other issues of maintenance and equipment.

Sorry to put a high note on this tragedy, but perhaps the 911 events have hurt the biggies, but it may have forced some of the smaller start-ups out of business....and THAT will keep you safer (if you flew those guys).

Spaw

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 08:25 AM

The most accurate method is to compare the number of deaths with the number of journeys made. So accurate, in fact, that this is the measure used by the industry and its insurers. This makes much more sense, because what matters to the individual is the journey, not how long it took or how far it went. Also, it enables comparison of different types of jet, both long haul and short haul.

By this measure, air travel takes on a rather different complexion. Deaths per 100 million passenger journeys are, on average, 55 for airliners compared with 4.5 for cars, and 2.7 for trains. Only motorbikes, at 100 deaths per 100 million passenger journeys, are more risky than aircraft on this basis.

from: Andrew Weir, Flight into danger, New Scientist, 7. 8. 1999

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM

Don't know about motorbikes (cycles) but I used to love flying, then I started taking the airlines to do so. Then I got involved in "contract security". My brother, David, is a Flight Attendent Supervisor for United. I'm not afraid of flying or of airplanes (I still think they are "way cool") but I am fraid of the degree of impact the airlines have on our economy, I am afraid for the Flight Attendents who have always had to put up with more than their pay compensates them for and the security at airports scares me silly! I am very annoyed (to be polite in the extreme) with the nonsense going on in congress about providing adequate security for the airports. Two months have gone by and people are still able to get weapons on board commercial aircraft.

yikes!>

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: mmm1a
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:09 AM

Last time I flew was to my Mothers funeral, that was bad enough but add to the fact I had a teething 7 month old ,and my 5 and 6 yr old sons , didn't help matters . The flight was alful lots of turbulants. This was 19 yrs ago and I swore then I would never fly again. 9-11 only made my resolve stronger if I can't get there by car,boat or train , then forget it. Besides if you fall out of a car you can survive , fall out of a plane , your chances are pretty close to zero. mmm

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:00 AM

My sentiments about airline travel pretty much match mmm's: I've taken one round trip in my life, from Newark NJ to Florida and back in 1983, and that put me off flying forever. There are myriad reasons for my refusal to board an airliner: the feeling of loss of control over one's destiny; the statistics, such as many have quoted, that indicate the riskiness of airline travel; the height from which an airliner can crash; the turbulence and the foul weather (including interminable delays for de-icing only to wait for the ice to form again); the rudeness of other passengers (with no way to escape from them); air quality in the cabin (of concern to me because of my medical problems); the inconvenience of pre-flight and post-flight processing; the dependence on outmoded and failing equipment and technology; the dependence on the alertness of overworked air traffic controllers; the lapses in maintenance and other procedures that allow needless accidents to happen; the lapses in security that allow hijackers and other dangerous people to board... and now the revelations, in the wake of 9/11, that show just how inadequate the security situation is, and just how reluctant the airlines are to make real improvements in security.

So I don't travel much. Since I don't particularly enjoy travelling by any means of transportation, I don' t miss it much!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:06 AM

I love to go places by train but oversea from the UK the options get somewhat limited, especialy if I am going to the states, as I will be this weekend. Still yet to try the Eurostar though.

I also enjoy flying aand its attendant bits and pieces, the movies , meals and drinks, and have done for years, both for work and pleasure. The atrocity of 11th September is not going to stop me making my journey to the States, that after all would chalk one up for the vermin that did it.

Because of the work I do I recently undertook a course dealing with the extraction of casualties from car wreaks. The instructors had a seemingly endless supply of potographic and video material to show whatever point they were making. They also stated that while cars are better built etc. than they were, the supply of up to date instructional material is not expected to diminish.

So at the end of the day shit happens, I just hope that should it happen to me I neither embarress myself or put someone else in even more danger while trying to save my own skin. We can hide in our houses, providing they don't burn down round our ears, or we can go out and carry on living.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:17 AM

It is the fastest way to get ...there. I will fly whenever I can. Still.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:23 AM

Jeez, when I posted my previous message on this thread, I'd had no idea there had been a plane crash in NYC less than an hour before.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:02 PM

I ain't afraid of no planes. But many are, even in the most peaceful of times. My wife and I just flew back from Wisconsin. Everything was quiet in the airport and on the plane, but someone hit our car while we were just sitting in it.

Only goes to show..

Jerry Rasmussen

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:25 PM

the airplanes are, by & large, flown by trained, competent pilots and serviced by good mechanics...barring the rare accident or even rarer hijacking, I would trust them more than driving on the freeway surrounded by idiots who do not seem to care whether I get off the road alive...

Live is a game of odds, and the odds are very good that a plane trip will be safe, notwithstanding that the ones which aren't make a BIG noise. I would NOT, though, take up crop dusting or ferrying supplies in the Yukon as a career!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: bbc
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 01:31 PM

I have flown many times in the past, w/ no problems. I don't expect to fly in the future, though, unless there is absolutely no choice. I don't consider it patriotic to risk my life by my choice of transportation. I prefer to have more control over my circumstances. Best thoughts to all suffering losses at this time.

bbc (in NY)

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,maxine
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:22 PM

We just got back to the UK two weeks ago from Orlando (did the Disney thing!) I have to say that the security at Orlando was not great. One minute we were going through passport control and the next we were waiting to get on the aircraft. No searches-nothing. Having said that, while we were out there, I bought myself a guitar and just as I was getting on the aircraft a steward jumped out and said "is that a guitar, cos if it is it can't come on the aircraft - it could be used as a lethal weapon" !! Now my playing is bad but not that bad! Steel strings I suppose...anyway, after much begging and pleading my guitar was finally stowed away in the stewards own private locker, sparing the poor instrument from the humilliation of the hold and the luggage conveyor belt at Gatwick. At the end of the day however, it was the crews decision to make and if they really felt happier without my guitar on board then so be it.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Nancy King
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:45 PM

I wonder how much today's crash in New York will affect the way people view air travel. It sure won't do the airlines any good. I have flown since 9/11 and presumably will do so again, but I'm verrry interested in the investigation into today's crash. Jeez.

Nancy

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:17 PM

You might find this interesting! Question ... will I ever fly again? Absolutly not! I was an Army medic and I had enough of unsafe choppers and airplanes then. But my fear of flying does not extend to Bride Judy. My Xmas gift to her is plane tickets to visit her best friend in Arizona. I did request that she change her mind but it is HER DECISION! I grew up in a very unsafe household. Today, my ability to controll my circumstances is vital. Will I ever get into a pressured metal tube, contolled by strangers, and fly five miles in the sky ... I don't think so! ... Bob

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: 53
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:26 PM

i've never liked to fly and now if i can't get ther by car i won't be going. BOB

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:46 PM

I am still not scared of flying, I hope to be at the Mudcat World Gathering in 2006.john