 sj |
||
|
||
On War and Liberties
|
|
|
Subject: On War and Liberties From: Amos Date: 27 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM Declan McCullagh, an intrepid and tireless technology writer and proponent of civil liberties in the wired world, has written this intelligent survey of the impact of conditions of war on citizens. FYI. Regards, Amos |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: katlaughing Date: 27 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM Thank you, Amos. Very well-written and something we should all pay attention to. kat |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Troll Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM Very interesting, Amos. I was not aware of Lincolns problems with the Constitution. troll |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Tinker Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:37 AM Thanks Amos, we all need to take a minute and reflect on the context of the times as we go forward. Tinker |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Amos Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:43 PM On a different perspective, signs of freedoms of the simple sort emerge in cities taken by the Northern Alliance. In Mazar-e-Sharif, men lined up at barber shops to have their Taliban-mandated beards shaved off. Women were discarding the all-encompassing burqas and music -- banned by the Taliban -- could be heard coming from cassette players in shops, according to the Afghan Islamic Press. Returning refugees streamed back into villages that they had not seen in months or years in a day of celebration across northern Afghan territory free from the Taliban. Of course it remains to be seen how far this new era of liberation develops, but this is certainly a good start -- music and shaves!! Freedom of dress! Yippeee. A |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:48 PM Freedom Flies In Your heart Like An Eagle Dusty old helmet, rusty old gun, They sit in the corner and wait - Two souvenirs of the Second World War That have withstood the time, and the hate. Mute witness to a time of much trouble. Where kill or be killed was the law - Were these implements used with high honor? What was the glory they saw? Many times I've wanted to ask them - And now that we're here all alone, Relics all three of a long ago war - Where has freedom gone? Freedom flies in your heart like an eagle. Let it soar with the winds high above Among the spirits of soldiers now sleeping, Guard it with care and with love. I salute my old friends in the corner, I agree with all they have said - And if the moment of truth comes tomorrow, I'll be free, or By God, I'll be dead! Audie Murphy, CMOH winner
|
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: GUEST Date: 13 Nov 01 - 08:14 AM Audie Murphy, CMOH winner?? CMOH does this stand for Certified Midget Of Hollywood - Only joking (Congressional Medal of Honor) |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: JedMarum Date: 13 Nov 01 - 09:35 AM Good article Amos, thanks for the link. We have not taken steps as drastic as those cited in the article - and I hope there will not be pressure to go that far. But I note that throughout recent history (at least) free societies have accepted restrictions on freedoms for the duration of major conflicts. The severest of the current limitations affect mainly non-US citizens, and all still require legal proceedings including judicial oversight. Judicial oversight gives me a level of confidence that freedoms are still protected - and while I am happy that the US has tried to extend its "rights of individuals" to foreigners within the US - I am not worried about us limiting those "rights" for security purposes. Overall the US has a good track record regarding personal freedoms, and due process - I won't argue there are galring exceptions. More importantly; the US currently has strong inclinations to protect those freedoms and to treat individuals with respect(citizens and non-citizens). I am betting that we'll pass through this era with our liberties in tact. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Jim Krause Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:55 PM Jed, Yeah, most likely you're right about passing through this era with our liberties intact. However, I think the points listed in the article article posted here illustrate a valid and cogent argument why war is anathema in a truly democratic society. Jim |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Nov 01 - 09:14 AM How many of you MIND the security measures at airports, resent having people look through your bags, etc? |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM CMOH - There is no Congressional in Medal of Honor. Congress has nothing to do with it. I could be wrong but knowing a couple of guys who have earned them I will take their word for it. Steve |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Nov 01 - 12:44 PM U.S. Army Center of Military History Full-text Listings of Medal of Honor Citations The President, in the name of Congress, has awarded more than 3,400 Medals of Honor to our nation's bravest Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen. Just to clarify a bit - *g* Steve |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Irish sergeant Date: 14 Nov 01 - 01:07 PM I believe Jed is right and we will pass through this current crisis with our liberties intact. However, we, the people, need to be vigilent to the fact that John Ashcroft managesd to get another inland police force authorised in this country and that he is not the person who would be my first choice to guard my liberties. Here is a man who couldn't win an election against a dead guy. He is avowedly religious right wing. There are good points to the homeland security agency but the idea of an all encompassing security agency is a bit frightening. Also the intended function is to co-ordinate all intelligence relating to national security. the 1947 charter establishing the CIA did that once or tried to. Once this bureaucracy is in place, it will be almost impossible to get rid of. And who do they wiretap when we are done with this current crop of terrorists? Will they invent terrorists to spy on? Just a few questions to ponder. Kindest regards, Neil |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 02:18 PM Oh, man.
To add a musical element to this thread... I clicked on your link, Amos. I saw the little e-bay thingie and it knew exactly where I live. (How's that for a bit of big brother?)
So I clicked on it thinking there might be someone in my area who is selling an accordion. They gave me the listing for the whole country. I spent at least two hours in that place, and I only looked at a fraction of the accordions they've got in there. Bad Amos! |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Nov 01 - 02:33 PM Mrzzy - I haven't been in an airport since the attack. I have heard that with a phone call ahead one can carry their instrument on board for stowage as opposed to the wrecking ball of baggage handling. I spoke with a friend who has flown several times and she told me that she has only been inspected once out of 3-4 flights. I'm OK with it for now - but as several others have stated - I'm keeping an eye on this. Always a tough call on these things. In Viet Nam we inspected nearly everything that came in our area. At one point there was a rumor of a French Foreign Legionaire who had deserted and joined the VC that was posing as a Marine - Everyone got inspected! Prior to that it was more ethnicity that determined who got inspected. It all depends on the circumstance I guess - Steve |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 01 - 03:01 PM Bad AMOS?? YOU'RE the one who is out looking for ACCORDIONS!!! LOL!!! Why do youthink it is there are so many of them being offered? A. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM *G* Couldn't tell you, Amos, but I found one that is perfect in every way, and the price is just right. But it's got a really fugly decoration on it. I'm experiencing some distress about this.
Here it is. What do you think? btw, I never did read the article in your link. I'm going to have to recover some brain cells before I do. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 03:19 PM (P.S. Scroll down to see the picture.) |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 01 - 03:41 PM Well it certainly is beautiful. How big is your back yard?? A |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 03:43 PM Why do you ask? (I live in an apartment.) You don't think that swoosh thing on it is stupid looking? |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: DougR Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:14 PM I don't mind them going through my bags. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: GUEST,Frank Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:24 PM Some of us are old enough to remember how civil liberties were impacted by the "cold war" and "clear and present danger". Many people lost their jobs, some were assaulted by so-called "patriots", many immigrants were denied fair and equal treatment, invasion of privacy by the government was used to intimidate those suspected of subversion though they were innocent. The burden of proof was not on the courts. I think it's important not to give up one's rational view of how things work during wartime and not unequivocally hand over our civil liberties to a mindless "patriotism". This country was built on the principle that it isn't perfect and can use some constructive criticism from time to time. This is truly being patriotic. I believe there is a danger that civil liberties can be negatively impacted by over-zealous and ambitious politicans. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:51 PM I heard Charles Krauthamer (sp?) say, in reference to the constitutional implications of the use of torture to get information from suspects in the terrorism investigation, that he felt that under the circumstances we face today, such an infringement on someone's constitutional rights would be ok. What I would like to say to Mr. Krauthamer is that the memory of every single person who died protecting the United States constitution would be instantly defiled the moment our government did such a thing. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:54 PM CarolC - Pearly shells - Steve *BG* |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:57 PM (Honest to goodness, Steve, I think I misplaced some brain cells in that e-bay hell. I don't get your joke.) |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Steve in Idaho Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:38 PM Pearly Shells is a song from the who knows when - I last heard it as a "Beach Blanket Bingo" song I think. The instrument is pearly in color. The ongoing scenario of you, one accordian, and the Mudcat Nearly Nude Calender. It is a large stretch - but you have GOT to remember that not all of my neurons are connected in a coherent manner at times. Steve (still grinning) I hadn't seen the posts between the picture and mine at the time either) |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Amos Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:37 PM Carol: Well, I was thinking of the sound. Some people need to give wide berth to accordions and bagpipes...but I am sure in your case this is not a consideration! :>) A |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Gareth Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:59 PM As a cynic: A Question. If you torture a confession/plan out of somebody - how do you know they are telling the truth ?? Mind you if the spooks are bugging the internet, I think any charecter recognising software is going to have fun with all the songs glorifying the Irish Patriots/Terrorists !! Gareth (part of the Enemy Within !!!!)
"I'll tell you the tale of the Collier and the Candle |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: CarolC Date: 14 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM Thanks Amos. I asked the person selling it if it can be played softly. He assured me that it can. Don't want to be disturbing the peace or anything ;-)
Steve, the problem is not with your neural connections. You just have a much better grasp of whatever genre of music "Pearly Shells" belongs to than I do. I must admit to never having heard the name before, at least not that I can remember anyway. Right on, Gareth! |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 14 Nov 01 - 09:07 PM Mrzzy, I mind having my bags checked, the reason being that living in, and flying to and from Belfast, through the worst years of the troubles (1971-83) I never once saw a terrorist - and I embrace Provisional IRA with that term -queueing to have his Arrmalite and his Semtex checked. Security is pure placebo - nothing more. It's to make us all feel OK. But it fucks around ordinary people, and doesn't even start to get in the way of intelligent criminals. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Whistle Stop Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:58 AM I don't mind having my bags checked; I mind NOT having my bags checked. Admittedly, it's not a perfect solution in and of itself, but I think it's a necessary component of a more comprehensive flight security plan. Carol, for once I agree with you -- we should not adopt a policy of using or allowing torture to extract information, because it is morally wrong, and it is completely inconsistent with the principles our nation was founded on, and for which so many have sacrificed. There may be times when we are facing such a dire emergency that we might have to contemplate extreme measures that should not otherwise be considered. Hypothetical scenario: the first plane hits the first tower, we strongly suspect there is a second hijacking about to take place, if we know the details we may have time to prevent it, and we have someone in custody who knows the plans. In such an extreme case we may have to resort to truly nasty methods of extracting information -- not to obtain a conviction (such evidence would likely be inadmissible in a US court anyway), but to prevent imminent catastrophe. In such a situation I can't say I'd rule out the use of torture as an emergency expedient, although I would still have serious qualms about it. In other circumstances, I don't think we should consider it an acceptable option. |
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: Celtic Soul Date: 15 Nov 01 - 10:41 AM Mrrzy, I fly in 2 weeks for the first time since the attacks. I'll tell you how I deal with it then. I don't *think* I'll have a lot of issues over it. I hope I won't anyway. All in all, I'd rather have some total stranger know what my bras and underwear look like than to have my plane hi-jacked. ;D
|
|
Subject: RE: On War and Liberties From: DougR Date: 15 Nov 01 - 01:53 PM "Pearly Shells" recorded by Burl Ives and also Don Ho, and probably lots of others (even Dean Martin I believe). Not only do I NOT mind them looking through my luggage, I sincerely, hope they look through EVERYONE elses. DougR |
| Share Thread: |
