War Strategy &Tactics: Part Two

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM

This thread is continued over here. Please use that one instead of this one.

Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:47 PM

I have no information pertaining to the credibility of this Israeli news service.

The next time you go to China call me. I would love to have a guide/interpreter. I always wanted to see the great stall of china.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:57 PM

BOY! Am I glad we went to China LAST summer!
Thanks Donuel.

troll

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:45 PM

China Moves Forces into Afghanistan 6 October: Before even the launching of the major US military offensive in Afghanistan, long Chinese convoys were carrying armed Chinese Muslim servicemen through northwest China into Afghanistan, according to DEBKAfile's intelligence experts.

They were sent in to fight alongside the ruling Taliban and Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda. Their number is estimated roughly between 5000 and 15,000. Our sources report another three convoys are behind the first 3000, who crossed the frontier Friday, October 5. They are entering Afghanistan along the ancient Krakoram Road to the Afghan-Pakistani border, through the Kulik Pass of Little Pamir, which is situated in one of the highest and most remote regions of the world.

Beijing is deploying this force in two places: A. Whakyir, the Kirgyz tribal encampment near the Little Pamir-Tadjik frontier, opposite the swelling concentration of US and Russian Special Forces and air strength The Chinese have brought with them Kirgyz fundamentalist militants from the Ferghana Valley of Central Asia, as interpreters.

From Whakyir, the Chinese generals believe, with Bin Laden's and the Taliban's tacticians, they will be able to block off the movement of the US-led force from its rallying point in Dzhartygumbez, Tadjikistan, no more than 35 miles from Little Pamir, into the mountains of Hindu Kush. B. Jalalabad in north Afghanistan, at the foot of the Hindu Kush range.

DEBKAfile's Chinese sources reveal that, immediately after the terrorist strikes in the United States on September 11, the Chinese intelligence service, MSS, handed in to the defense ministry in Beijing their estimation that the United States would go to war to overthrow the Taliban regime, for the sake of which it would sign a pact with Russia. The Chinese leadership viewed this eventuality as the most significant shift in the global balance since the 1962 Chinese-Russian feud, with dangerous implications for China's world standing and its interests in Central and Southwest Asia. They decided it must be counteracted.

The only satisfactory outcome of the Bin Laden crisis in Chinese eyes is the redeployment of Japanese-based US troops to the Persian Gulf, when the Kitty Hawk carrier moved the 3rd Marines Division out of Okinawa last week. Chinese intelligence did not miss the absence of fighters and reconnaissance craft on her decks. The planes stayed behind, but the very fact that the Kitty Hawk is no longer within operational range of the Straits of Taiwan leaves the disputed island with diminished protection. Beijing also took note of additional US military movements, including the Army's 10th Mountain Division based at Fort Drum, New York and that of another formerly Pacific-based unit, the 25th Infantry Division, out of Hawaii to the Persian Gulf.

According to DEBKAfile 's Far East experts, the removal of substantial US military strength from the Pacific Rim opened the way for Chinese intervention in Afghanistan and its effort to slow down the US-Russian advance.

___________________________________________________

For a report on this story and the deployment of TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS go to http://www.debka.com

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:24 PM

No argument from me, CarolC.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

Donuel - Ah, I see. You did have me kind of puzzled, but okay.

Doug - I have your permission to frame it? Awright! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:45 PM

I forgot to respond to this part...

The Conservative view on the Mudcat is, however, not a popular point of view as I'm sure you will agree. Often when we express our opinion on a given subject replies posted by Liberals are less than kind. No point in naming names, they know who they are.

I will not argue with you on that point. I have seen some very rude behavior on the part of some liberals toward people who hold views like the ones you hold. And I have seen some people who hold views like yours behaving rudely toward liberals.

However, there are people on both sides of the ideological divide who are polite in the way they express their views, and there are some who try to actively discourage rudeness coming from anyone toward anyone else. It's important to remember this so as to not alienate the ones who may not agree with you, but who would uphold your right to express your views without being subjected to rudeness.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

Yes little hawk , speculative posts are in part fiction ". The horror of bio weapons is not.

My outrage regarding bio weapons has a 30 year track record some of which is too personal to reveal.

Candy coating horror with a sweet layer of sarcasm still leaves the "slithy" center and its putrid after taste to savor for years to come.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:15 PM

Yep, L.H., I think you're right. (Now, may I suggest that you print my message off and frame it? This may be the last time you hear me say that! LOL!)

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:08 PM

True enough, Doug. We all tend to overreact sometimes when our particular buttons get pushed. And we all hate injustice, but WE SPECIALLY HATE IT when it is practised by those on the OTHER side of a given political divide!

Which is to say...we all suffer from some degree of prejudice and bias, which gets in the way of our objectivity time and time again.

In a war situation that tendency in people becomes greatly exaggerated, and leads to terrible atrocities in the name of freedom, justice, and humanity.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

My feeling is that some of our practices have contributed to some of the problems we face today. If we want to eliminate the problems, we need to look honestly at our practices and eliminate the ones that are causing problems. I'm in favor of what works in the long run.

If we do not look honestly at ourselves and make adjustments where they are called for, we are in a state of denial. That sort of unconditional support for the way we do things may seem like support for the country, but to me, it has the effect of undermining the wellbeing of the country in the long run.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:34 PM

Thanks, Carol. I'm neither a facist or extremist.

That remark stemmed from the postings you have made that appeared, to me at least, to emphasize the "bad" things America has done (and admittedly it has) rather than the good things America has done for the world. In a post or two it appeared to me that you (along with several others) felt that U. S. policies in the past were somehow responsible for the terrorist attacks, and we were invited to view the situation from the terrorist's point of view.

I felt that statements of that type were less than supportive of our country at a time when the majority of the people in America were showing a great spirit of unity.

I don't question, however, your right to hold these views if that's how you feel.

The courtesy remark did not in anyway refer to you, L.H., and many others who identify themselves as Liberals. The Conservative view on the Mudcat is, however, not a popular point of view as I'm sure you will agree. Often when we express our opinion on a given subject replies posted by Liberals are less than kind. No point in naming names, they know who they are.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM

DougR, a couple of things you've posted lately have left me feeling troubled.

On another thread you accused all liberals in the Mudcat of being rude (lacking courtesy). I questioned you about that on that thread, but you didn't answer me. I consider myself a liberal, but I think it would be unfair for you to characterize me as being rude.

And on this thread, you said, "I think your post of 7:04 P.M., October 5, clarifies for me, at least, why I have questioned several posts you have writen that appear to be unfriendly to the United States"

This troubles me in particular because I have never posted anything indicating that I wish harm to the US. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am concerned about what is going to happen to the US during this time of crisis. I have different ideas about how things should be handled than you do, but what I want is for good things to happen for the US. I guess I just have different ideas about what's good for the US than you do.

What troubles me about this is that you seem to be suggesting that the very fact that I hold different ideas than you do about what is good for the US, means that I hold feelings that are unfriendly to the US.

I have to admit that these things leave me pretty troubled about where you're coming from as far as your attitude about people with differing opinions is concerned. If you start accusing people who hold different ideas than you of being "unfriendly to the US", doesn't that make you a bit of an extremist? (I wanted to use the word 'fascist', but I think that may be a bit too strong.)

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:44 AM

Donuel, that's a doozy. Ebola in heroin is really scary since most addicts shy away from medical help.
WHOA!

troll

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: GUEST,BarbaraLynn
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:54 PM

Donuel: I hope you have written/emailed/telephoned/faxed your Congressional representatives (or at least the CDC) with your concern. In these times, it's probably wiser to assume that those who are in positions to take action on such things may not think of them in the crush of so MUCH to think about. I'd rather not take chances on them not thinking of it.

BarbaraLynn

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:53 PM

By the way, Dan, so sorry to hear about the passing of your beloved aunt.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:22 PM

Donuel - You really ought to start hanging out with Stephen King more...I am not quite sure if you're a dark humorist or if you're losing it.

Given the possibility that the human Spirit survives physical death, and is undergoing an eternal process of raising its consciousness through improving its behaviour and understanding in successive lives, both in the physical and in spirit...then what might be the best thing to do, in that case, in any given physical life?

Given the further possibility that there are innumerable worlds upon which to incarnate, replete with possibilities of all sorts...then what?

Given the possibility that you cannot kill the other guy's soul, which is his real (though unseen) self, of what avail is it to hurl Brer Rabbit into the briar patch, when you will find yourself there presently too?

If given the choice to be an angel or a monster, why choose the monster? It's just another mask you will have to drop when it has outlived its dramatic moment and lost its practical application.

It's not death that I fear, but a life that is wasted on fear, negativity, and foolishness.

Still, I have to compliment you on the razorback hog notion...I find it hard to imagine you are serious, but Stephen King would just love it. I'm not sure what he believes in, but it's the kind of bizarre thing he would dream up.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:10 PM

Here are some dots to connect:

1) There was a very large and active outbreak of Ebola in Afghanistan in 2000. I heard on the radio this morning that another one is currently in progress now. http://www.earthtimes.org/mar/unnotebookafghanistansmar2_01.htm

2) The Taliban has the world's largest hoard of heroin - some 300,000 tons. http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/fact/11dec00.htm

3) One of the brains in the inner cadre of that terrorist organization is a physician from Egypt.

4) When the Soviet Union broke up, terrorist networks gained access to, among other things, like merv cones, the latest and greatest products of Russia's very advanced and active biological warfare program. Among these products is very likely a version of Ebola Zaire that has been "enhanced" to have a fuzzy protein coat, thus making it an airborn contagion.

5) An international network to smuggle heroin in through borders under the noses of authorities has existed for quite some time, and members of that network are old hands at getting heroin into countries which have a much tighter border security than we have.

Now, if you were a terrorist who hated America, Europe, and the entire Western Civilization, what would you do? It seens to me that you would get your hands on some enhanced Ebola Zaire, with its horrific symptoms and its 90% fatality rate with airborn propogation thrown in just for overkill. It further seems to me, especially if I were an Egyption physician nursing a grudge against Western Civilization, that the Taliban's vast 300,000 ton heroin cache would make an ideal vehicle for introducing this dread biological warfare agent into cities and towns all over America and Europe - simultaneously. As a physician, I would be aware that the Ebola virus can be stored and distributed in crystaline form, and Ebola crystals could be readily mixed with heroin powder. Indeed, using drug addicts as virus vectors might appeal to a certain distorted sense of Islamic justice.

This raises the specter of heroin addicts injecting crystalized Ebola into their veins in large cities and small towns all over the face of America - and Europe. They in turn expose those around them to the viral infection. Those thus exposed then infect others, and so on.

We are not prepared to handle even a smallpox outbreak on one city, as shown by Operation Dark Winter. That little exercise, carried out at Andrews Airforce Base this last June and simulating an outbreak of smallpox in Oklahoma City, indicated that even one limited exposure to a bological warfare agent would quickly spiral out of control and shut down the entire country within two or three weeks. A simultaneous outbreak of Ebola in cities and small towns all across America (and Europe) would bring down Western Civilization rather more quickly than that.

A 90% fatality rate means that there would be roughly 250,000 survivors out of the 250,000,000 inhabitants of America - and those survivors would be isolated, afraid to associate with each other, and afraid of any place that may contain a dead body since corpses of those who die of Ebola are full of virus crystals that can continue to infect the living for years after the Ebola victim has died.

What can we do to prevent this horrific scenario? Well, not a whole lot, unfortunately. However here are a few preventive measures we can take:

1) Root out all terrorists and wipe them out. We are in the process of doing this now. We must leave them no safe havens and hunt them down in detail. They should then be executed in a manner that will serve as a deterrent to the remaining Islamic extremists: - they should be paralyzed and then fed alive to a bunch of razorback hogs on TV - which, by their beliefs, would be a death sufficiently unclean as to send them straight to Hell. Their remains, if any, should be buried in bacon grease.

2) Authorities should be especially vigilant about heroin coming across our borders, and any heroin they find should be treated as a class four biohazard.

3) Heroin addicts need to be educated about this possibility and methadone clinics need to be set up to give them an alternative. Amnesty should be given to any heroin addict who chooses to use the methadone clinic. The goal here should be to eliminate or at least minimize the terrorists' ability to use the addict community in America and Europe as a vector for biological warfare agents.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 09:37 PM

I see. Thanks, Carol.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM

Grandparents don't count unless they are living and they need you to take care of them. I know because I checked. (Actually, I almost pleaded.) My grandfather is no longer living.

I don't qualify because I have disabilities that prevent me from working. My goal is to eventually get a masters degree in counseling. That would enable me to work just about anywhere even with my disabilities, but because of the disabilities, it's incredibly slow going. It could be years before I realize my goal.

Just as with the US, Canada doesn't need people coming in from other countries and collecting benefits instead of contributing to the tax base.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:26 PM

That's interesting CarolC, why don't you meet the criteria? Is it really because of money? Don't mean to pry, but I can't imagine why you wouldn't qualify, particularly since your grandfather was Canadian. But perhaps that has nothing to do with it.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:15 PM

To hold dual citizenship in Canada and the USA would be a very advantageous thing for just about anybody. Both countries have a lot to offer, and they are at the same time quite different in character, although the differences are becoming less and less as the decades slide by, this due mainly to the dominance of American media and commerce in Canada, and the fading away of the once strong British empire heritage here.

- LH

Amos - Well, it helps if you pick the winning side too...although that's no guarantee! One thing to be said for dying young though, you don't have to deal with the problems of aging, which can be a real pain. :-)

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: heric
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:12 AM

Yes, I was going to say I thought you could buy your way in. Sorry but my one beloved aunt died a few months ago while I was in the air on the way up to see her.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:59 AM

Maybe not, Amos. Also, I don't have enough money.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 09:41 AM

Carol:

No buck teeth?

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:35 AM

DougR, believe it or not, Canada is pretty particular about to whom they grant citizenship.

Although I don't believe I said I prefer Canada. I believe I said I don't know which country I prefer, so I would like to be able to be a citizen of both countries. Many people hold citizenships to more than one country.

Anyway, I have checked it out, and as of right now, I don't meet Canada's criteria.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:39 AM

CarolC: is it so difficult to obtain Canadian citizenship? I really don't know, but if I felt as you do, I certainly would find out.

I think your post of 7:04 P.M., October 5, clarifies for me, at least, why I have questioned several posts you have writen that appear to be unfriendly to the United States. If you prefer to be a Canadian, why not pursue it? You probably wouldn't have to be adopted by anyone, but if you want to go that way, maybe Rick would like to have a daughter! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:08 PM

Just a throw-away fact: Gandhi was trained as a lawyer and practiced law in South Africa for some years. He may well have formulated some of his ideas in that country.

troll

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:43 PM

Well little Hawk, if its any comfort, you're not alone!! Let me suggest that if you take up arms and die young, you need more practice!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:38 PM

Neat trick, Dan. Do you live near the border? Got any old Canadian aunties who would like to adopt an American?

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:28 PM

Amos - No, but they might have said "Today we are all Russians". That would be the matching sentiment. To say "Today we are all Communists" would be like saying "Today we are all free market capitalists". Yuck. Either way it's a silly thing to say. It was the sense of common humanity that was stirred, I believe, rather than an endorsement of a particular way of life, as opposed to others. I am echoing CarolC here, of course. I also felt an empathy for New Yorkers on and around Sept 11 that I have never felt in my life before, so I could just as well have said "Today we are all New Yorkers". That's what it felt like. It had nothing to do with perceived democratic institutions, but with common humanity.

Regarding your general explanation of the high ideals embodied in the culture and history of America...WELL SAID! I agree with that.

Sadly, though, I think it is not the dominating factor in the daily lives of many Americans nowadays.

However, it's clearly real and valuable to you, and that speaks well for you. Ditto for Troll and numerous others.

I have spent some time in simpler societies, and upon returning to North America (Canada, in my case) I was struck by how caught up we are in our materialistic rat race, and how unreal and immature it all is, and how unhappy and isolated a lot of people are here, despite their material wealth...so I am more than a bit cynical about the glories of our civilization. There's a lot of self-indulgence and waste here.

At the same time there is a foundation of high political and social ideals here which is certainly worthy of praise, and you described the American contributions to that very well indeed. The British, the French and the Canadians (among others) have also made notable contributions to that, but I think you are right that the Americans are in the forefront in the Great Experiment, as it's been called by some.

Regarding the Brits, friends from India and Pakistan have told me that there was always a love/hate relationship between the Indians and the British (from the Indian side at least)...they both resented British dominance and admired the Empire's strengths, energy, practicality and organisational brilliance at the same time. As empires go, the British were a pretty impressive example of how to run one in a reasonably enlightened and very effective fashion.

One exception to that: they handled the matter of the 13 American colonies in an abysmally bad way, probably because King George III was not exactly playing with a full deck, and accordingly they lost half of North America. The French, of course, helped out quite significantly (specially at Yorktown), getting even for the debacle of the French and Indian War not long before in which Washington fought very well for the British Empire, as I recall.

Robo - Yep. Gandhi was a smart cookie. I am sure he would not have been foolish enough to try such nonviolent social action against the Nazis, but would have waited for them to accomplish their own destruction...which they soon did by creating more external enemies than they could possibly handle. That's what a Taoist would do too...let the maniacs destroy themselves through their own aggressiveness and insanity. There's a time to act, and a time not to, and Gandhi knew the difference, I believe.

I am not suggesting everyone should have done that, either!!! There were people needed to fight the Nazis, and it was a certainty that those people would be there when the time came, but it was not Gandhi's job to do that...at least not with a gun.

The great thing about life is that every kind of person is out there...the warrior, the teacher, the philosopher, the theologian, the healer, the spiritual Master...and each one of them is there to accomplish what must be accomplished when the time comes.

So keep in mind that when I recommend Gandhi's course of action (social change through nonviolence), I am not necessarily saying that that is the one and only type of action appropriate to all people at all times. Not by any means.

"To everything there is a season." And there are times when I too would take up arms and fight. The thing is, I did that in more than a few past lives and died young, and so I have become cautious about rushing off to war on someone else's sayso...but you may not believe in stuff like that...and I can't prove it, that's for sure.

- LH

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: heric
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM

>>>>Well, of course they didn't invent it. But they raised it to primary importance in the policies of a nation for the first time. <<<<

How so? We have a representative democracy, not pure democracy. Didn't the creators of parliamentary government invent it? (I'm not a historian; I'm really asking.) Holy thread creep.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:02 PM

Well, of course they didn't invent it. But they raised it to primary importance in the policies of a nation for the first time.

And I am sure it gets boring, and most Americans don't yack about it all that much in ordinary living. They tend to bring it up when their government starts mucking with it.

I think it is a terrific idea, and the more people in the world live by it the better. I know a few Yanks who don't -- for example they are pussy-whipped by notions of political correctitude into not stating things plainly. But as you say, people are people. Good thing, too!! What would we do if it turned out that half of them -- say, the women folk for example -- weren't?? :>)

(Joke!! Joke!! Put down that frying pan!!!)

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:02 PM

Well, of course they didn't invent it. But they raised it to primary importance in the policies of a nation for the first time.

And I am sure it gets boring, and most Americans don't yack about it all that much in ordinary living. They tend to bring it up when their government starts mucking with it.

I think it is a terrific idea, and the more people in the world live by it the better. I know a few Yanks who don't -- for example they are pussy-whipped by notions of political correctitude into not stating things plainly. But as you say, people are people. Good thing, too!! What would we do if it turned out that half of them -- say, the women folk for example -- weren't?? :>)

(Joke!! Joke!! Put down that frying pan!!!)

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: heric
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

>>>>I would feel blessed to be able to hold dual US/Canadian citizenship. If I ever found myself in a situation where I could choose one or the other, but only one, I honestly don't know which one I would choose. It could quite possibly be that I would choose Canada. The one thing the US has that gives it a slight edge for me over Canada is that my son lives here in the US. <<<<

CarolC: I am a citizen of both, and my time, friends and family have always been split about equally between the two. This has been a peculiar tradition in my family for generations. They're both nice places, but, as you might have guessed: people are people wherever you go. The U.S. has a bigger impact and just looks bigger in its effects, and responsibilities. But this gives me finally the opportunity to spout something I keep thinking about since reading mudcat since 9/11: People in the "other" country, (whichever, wherever -all over) get the bulk of their impressions through the media. People outside the U.S. see the magazines reporting on whatever result, and outsiders often get the impression that there is a general rah-rah of the citizenry behind that result. There is no way to convey the amount of dissension that goes to any given result. Forgive me for saying that I think Canadians are especially ignorant of that principle. (But it works in reverse, as well, such as with the CBC whining about not getting mentioned by Bush, perish the thought that the CBC provides a good representation of Canadian opinions.)

But guess what else: since people are people, the same thing, this huge divergence of opinions and national self-criticism happens all over to a huge extent. To piss off the yanks, I think they are rather ignorant of that, and tend to belief that the huge levels of dissent are peculiar to here. Have you noticed the comments from the U.K. catters lately. Their irreverence of authority is massive, and it's typical of the U.K. Same thing in Germany I know: passionate debate and diverse opinions are the norm, every day. Italy, ha! I must assume it's everywhere.

So when yanks talk about their precious rights of free speech as if they invented it, you can see why others might get bored.

There. Assuming I've pissed off enough North Americans, I'll leave the soap box to someone else.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

The colonial footprints left by the British are uniformly of education, civil engineering, architecture, transport, social organization and law which improved things. I suppose we could imagine that India and Malaysia, for example would have been better evolving without colonization and learning the arts of "civilization" voluntarily, as Thailand did, but regardless, they were improvements and to a large degree are still standing and serving well.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Robo, nice to hear an American say so...

I have to say I feel the same about the situation

Far from good....but by the standards of the time...

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

The English weren't perfect? Whatever can you mean, Robodog?

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:11 PM

Since you were talking about the man, please spell it correctly, 'Gandhi' and we should acknowledge as above that his methods would not have worked against 1940's Germany, so it is a tribute to the English of the 1940's that their system allowed a native to be educated and to lead a successful movement against them. The English have left a different and better imprimatur on their subject colonies the world over than any other culture.

Robo, from an offshoot of one of those colonies, the United States of America.

P.S. I'm sure there will be those who can't wait to tell me the English were not perfect. Acknowledged. But they were far superior to anyone else. I had an Indian roommate in College who felt the same way. (He wasn't perfect either).

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM

But why did that Parisian woman say "Today, we are all Americans" only after the WTC disaster? If her sentiment was based on any aspect of our political system, she would just as likely have felt that way without any disaster ever needing to take place.

It really is all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think this country is the best country in the world. That's nice. But that's an opinion just like any other opinion.

I am an American citizen. I've spent almost all of my life living in the US. But for some reason, I don't even know if I can explain why, my love for Canada is no less great than my love for the US. Maybe it's something that was instilled in me by my Canadian grandfather. I don't know. But I think that Canada, although having different strengths and weaknesses than the US, is just as good as the US, and to most Canadians, probably better.

I would feel blessed to be able to hold dual US/Canadian citizenship. If I ever found myself in a situation where I could choose one or the other, but only one, I honestly don't know which one I would choose. It could quite possibly be that I would choose Canada. The one thing the US has that gives it a slight edge for me over Canada is that my son lives here in the US.

There are no absolutes when it comes to what makes a country a desirable place to live. It's all subjective.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM

No -- but a Parisian said, "Today, we are all Americans. For a Parisian woman to say that meant a lot, I thought. And there was no country, in the better sense, called the USSR. Their "Union" was not one of nationhood but one of steel control and suppressed communication.

Ours is primarily voluntary, Civil War notwithstanding.

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM

*grin*

Well, Amos. When the jetliners crashed into the WTC, I didn't hear the world say "Today we are ALL capitalists", either.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM

*get things done during wartime

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:05 PM

Carol C:

Differ away, and no hard feelings, but I think we are arguing about the direction of travel of a circle.

Our commitment as a nation IS to common humanity, despite our falling short in so many sad ways over the years.

Anyone who has studied the issue knows it. I can assure you that had those jetliners driven into the Kremlin at the height of the USSR's power, the diplomatic outcry would have been similar, but noone would have said -- "Today, we are ALL Communists".

A

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:01 PM

GUEST, petr,

The point I was making with that statement was that the goal is to eliminate terrorism. It may be necessary to try break the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan in order to do this. But war between us and the Taliban is not necessarily the only way that the Taliban might be unseated. So the idea is to find the most effective way to accomplish the goal of eliminating terrorism.

There are several groups of Afghan fighters who are convinced that they can get rid of the Taliban more effectively than anyone else, and they have stated that officers in Bin Ladin's military have committed themselves to fighting against Bin Ladin if these other fighters organize and take Bin Ladin on. They are convinced that if we use agression in Afghanistan, we will make the problem worse, rather than better. They said "Let the Afghans do it".

So my point is for us to adopt whatever strategy will be the most effective in accomplishing our goal in the long run. Even if it goes against what we conventionally think of as being the way to get things during wartime.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: DougR
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM

Perhaps you're right, CarolC. Maybe I did misunderstand what you were saying.

DougR

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

it is at bottom what prompted the amazing statements of respect and endearment from nations around the world after the latest villainy on 11 September.

I beg to differ. I believe that what prompted the amazing statements of respect and endearment from nations around the world after what happened on 11 September was not anything that makes us different as a nation from all other nations. I think what prompted these things was a recognition of our common humanity. I think that, perhaps for the first time, the rest of the world saw themselves in us in our moment of vulnerability and need.

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:48 PM

CarolC in an earlier post you made the comment that

'However, our stated intention is not war with the Taliban. That could become an issue...' While I dont believe the US want to go into nation building business that unfortunately may be the case with Afghanistan. Im sure that the US state dept. is aware that an outside govt imposed on Afghanistan will be seen as a puppet by some and yet about the only way to root out these terrorist networks is to remove their safe havens.

Im sure this explains the focus on building a coalition for a post Taliban govt (with the previous king Zahir Shah along with some other groups including the Northern Alliance and not just going in Taking the Taliban and ALQaeda out and leaving, or just backing the Northern Alliance. Thats why they are also trying to build a coalition with the Islamic countries which is key in recognizing a post Taliban govt. along with the humanitarian aid. (in one sense the terrorists that committed the Sept 11 attacks - have altered US foreign policy) I dont believe that the US will fire off cruise missiles from the hip again or ally itself with some corrupt govts without thinking ahead about any possible future ramifications in the region)

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:41 PM

Amos the Eloquent. Thank you for that masterful explication on the ideology of our nation. It needed saying and you said it beautifully.

AVE!

troll

Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Two
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

GUEST,petr,

I'm not sure why you have addressed your post to me. I understand the situation with regards to the Taliban as well as Al Quaeda. But I'm unsure about how to respond to you because I'm not sure what I said that caused you to feel that this needed to be pointed out. Help?

Likewise, DougR, I'm not sure I know which of my posts you are refering to. But it sounds to me like you may have misunderstood what I was saying.