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War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three
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Subject: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:43 PM The first part of this thread, over 109 posts, can be found by CLICKING HERE. REGARDS, A |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM Pardon Ypto. A |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM Absolvo te, Ypto, and sni no more. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:54 PM There's a currently running television advertisement (I think it's a public service ad), that shows all kinds of people of all kinds of races and cultures, etc, in the US saying, "I am an American". I'd like to see a television ad showing citizens of countries all over the world saying, "I am a human being". |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:03 AM CarolC, I sorely wish the world had citizenship cards to distribute to folks like thee, who seem to be much more interested in world citizenship than of any specific country. Not picking a fight, I really mean it though. As far as I know, though, they are not available. DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:08 AM Maybe it's time for a change then. I don't think it would be practical for us to have world citizenship yet, but I do think we can start changing our focus from identifying with just our own country, to also focusing on our common humanity. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:22 AM No, I don't think I'm ready for that change, and I doubt the majority of Americans are either. Probably citizens of many other countries feel the same way. I have no problem identifying myself as an American. No world King or Queen, Dictator, President, no world legislature, and I would think the ineffectiveness of the World Court might cause one to wonder if it has any real reason to exist. No thanks. I think we are doing pretty well the way things are. DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,DABONE Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:28 AM Hey hey! We're all going to die!! |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:31 AM Doug, considering the alliances that this entire operation is based on, I think it would be great if we all had a "human being" card. The jingoism and religious intolerance will bring on far greater casualties and losses. We ought to be dumping more money into selling the Muslim world that this is not a holy war and a little less into bailing out American, Delta, United, and TWA. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:59 AM Don't worry 'Spaw. There's plenty more money where the bailout bucks and the convincing cash came from. That's right!!! Your pockets and mine. troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:41 AM Hmmm... how would you prove you were actually a "citizen of the world" If you lost your card, could you be deported to Mars? Would forgery of said documents be considered a 'crime against humanity?' so many thoughts... Actually, although many put out a good argument for globalization, there is one problem. It will not end violence. It will not end the discountent from trying to take what they feel 'justified' to take. This planet is not created equal. What is luxury in one place is a rare essensial in another. There is no way that all can be represented fairly. And what happens when we do not all (meaning whatever ruling group would head the world) agree on a certain course of action? In America there are those that do not vote, because they feel that thier vote does not count. Thier 'one little voice' is drown out by special interests and other 'massive voices'. To make a globalized government, the voice of the individual becomes less and less. As to Nationalism, I think it is a great thing. I hope that when people are proud of thier homes they do more to better thier homes. It is not just the land you live on. But it becomes your "Home and your children's future." It can be taken to extremes, just as anything can, but if it is nurtured correctly, it could also do much to improve the quality of life for those here. Hopefully with time, our children would be able to spread that quality to other places. To show others how to improve, and take pride in thier home, thier families. Nationalism is not an evil idea, or a selfish idea, it only states that you would take pride in your home. Take pride in the place you live. Call it patriotism, call it what you wish, but we cannot correct the lives of others, until we can correct our own. Just a few rambling tired thoughts Just a Nobody |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:48 AM I think one of the problems the folks that favor "World Citizenship" have with folks like us, Just a Nobody, who see nothing wrong in "Nationalism," is they feel we are not sympathetic to the problems of other countries. I obviously can't speak for others, but that does not describe me. I'm just not ready to accept the United States surrendering it's autonomy to a world government, and I doubt the majority of the government's of other countries of the world are either. I agree with Spaw that more money should be spent as he suggests, and more should be spent on humanitarian effots to relieve the suffering of the Afghan people. DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,just a nobdy Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM I hope, through all my postings, that no one has the idea that I am an isolationist. I believe it to be unhealthy. I agree with humanitarian aid, and hope that our country does more. The problem is, sooner or later you help someone that is not liked by someone else. The idea of a freind of your enemy is your enemy and visa versa is used against the US constantly. That is our biggest problem we will face. Who do we help and if we help them who gets pissed. We can't help the world cause then the world gets pissed off at us.... So... what to do... *sigh* Damned if you do Damned if you don't... Glad I don't have to make the decisions... sometimes it's good to be.... just a nobody |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: heric Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:38 PM Nobody is not an isolationist. Got it. I think. I'm starting to gel on this who is the enemy stuff. major breakthough as the result of an expert on Middle East studies interviewed by Peter Jennings last night. Further solidified by a woman on CNN today. Bin Laden doesn't "hate" Western deomcracy, Western freedom of speech, the U.S., or Americans. All of those are convenient symbols for demagoguery. The is a broad based discontent/hatred spectrum throughout the Arab world for U.S. policies affecting the region. Bin Laden's agenda is more correctly described as being againt several governmental structures throughout the region. Demagoguery requires a Great Satan to incite passions. The dispossessed (admittedly not the only source of sympathy for bin Laden) need a purpose, a great evil, for inspiration. Bin Laden seeks widespread destruction for the intent of doing harm to many institutionalized governments in the region. Portraying them as lackies to the Great Satan is perfect. Showing that he has no fear of that same great evil is perfect. (I wonder, do you suppose members of Saudi royalty were mean to him on the school playground?) I know that this concept is simple and obvious to several of you, but I'm gradually getting it. Or so it seems today. What does this mean for future strategy? I think Nasr was right. Promotion of democracy. *Honest* alliances built on ethical principals. Respectful recognition of the subtleties of governance in various countries. All of these help not to feed the sources of bin Laden support. But it requires distinguishing between ethical governments and those which are less responsive to the needs and wishes of their populations. That can be tricky, perhaps impossible, to accomplish, without the appearance of being meddlesome and arrogant. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: heric Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:43 PM With regard to the last sentence above: Consider the importance of the separation of the State from religious affairs in the strengthening democracies. How do you advance that concept in many Middle East countries without being meddlesome? |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: heric Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM Similarly, if you, the diplomat, decide that a government is not properly representative of its population on one or many issues, how do you convey your discontent without impugning the sovereignty of that legal government? Or what if the government properly represents the majority opinion, to the injustice of minorities? (Especially applicable to the separation of governance from religion.) Okay I'm done. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:02 PM In fact, hurricane, the Saudi Royal family was mean to bin Laden. When Saddam was getting ready to move on Kuwait, bin Laden went to the Royal family and offered to raise and train a defense force using his "Afghan Arabs" his mercs, as cadre. They turned instead to the US and that caused his disaffection with the Saudi Govt. So there are wheels within wheels here. troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM Probably U.S. support for Israel is at the heart of the problem, though, don't you think, Troll? |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:04 PM Promotion of democracy, human rights, and the development of healthy local economies in poor countries would do more to stop terrorism than any number of bombings, wars, or assassinations. Terrorism arises out of desperation. End what is causing the desperation, and the terrorists will evaporate rather quickly, since their reason for existing will be gone. This could only be achieved if countries stopped competing for land, resources, and military domination, and started actually cooperating to reduce human suffering in all places. Well, maybe in 100 years from now...or 200...or 1000. See you when we get there, folks! - LH |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM Well, thats what bin Laden says. I guess we could believe him. troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Peter T. Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM Simplest solution is to give every person in Afghanistan a free ticket to New York, and all expenses paid for a month, Broadway shows, Madonna concerts, restaurants free, health care, teeth fixed, you name it, and if they want to stay at the end of their journey, fine, you get to be a citizen. Drop leaflets saying: next Thursday, at the border, your ticket is waiting, and the planes are ready. No tricks. There are only about 5 million of them, easily absorbed into America: Canada could take a couple of hundred thousand, Britain too. It would probably cost about 20 billion dollars. Help restart New York, completely destroy any anti-American coalition. Pre-emptive benevolence. You heard it here first.
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:47 PM So, L.H., you're discounting entirely the religious argument that Ben Laden has advanced? That he and his followers consider non-muslims to be infidels, and he considers that Allah has designated him and his friends to exterminate all non-believers. Certainly Osma Bin Laden does not suffer from any of the deprivations you describe. He is a wealthy man! Your arguments sound good though. Even P.C.! DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:53 PM There are 26 Million in Afghanistan Peter. I got that figure from the CIA website. It would certianly tend to make New York even more crowded. The world has not had serious trouble with Japan and Germany since constitutional democracy was forced upon them. Maybe we should do the same to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. It'll hurt in the short run, but once those people start getting a taste of property and human rights, they won't want to go back. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: M.Ted Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM From : http://www.rense.com/general14/evlusive.htm Well, some one asked me a while back if I had run across any conspiracy theory stuff, related to this all--this e-mail compilation is as rewarding as it is disturbing, your discussions have been almost too reasonable--this will fix that, and yes, I havae followed all the links, they are real, and legitimate, well, mostly, anyway-- Tracking The Elusive Truth Commentary Edited by Anita Sands Hernandez astrology@earthlink.net 10-5-1 If you were a mystery writer, say, an Agatha Christie chess brain, and were confronted with a pair of corpses, two very tall, well loved, glamorous, American TWINS) , you would review the clues with avidity wouldn't you? If you read every article in cyberspace, you would see, as researchers do, that U.S. spooks knew the two, beautiful twins were a.) scheduled to be offed, and b.) their death by fire would get you so crazy-flag-waving that they could put a long, long war before you and you'd bite down on it, hook and all. The USA, CIA, NSC, Joint Chiefs, George Senior, and Dick Cheney, KNEW the WTC attack was FINALLY, about to happen. You'll see it if you hold the following clues in mind all at once: 1) ECHELON spies gave U.S authorities a 3 month warning of attacks. A German paper reported U.S. and Israeli intelligence agencies received warning signals at least three months ago that terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American culture, according to a story in Germany's daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung http://wwwnewsbytes.com 2) The U.S. already in JULY 2001, had planned to attack the Taliban before the WTC/Pentagon attacks: a former Pakistani diplomat has told the BBC that the U.S.A. was planning military action against Osama and the Taliban even before last weekís attacks. Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. (BBC news 9-18-01) EVIDENCE THAT The USA already planned and attack on the Taliban. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm This former Paki diplomat told the BBC that the U.S was planning military action against Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban even before last weekís attacks. Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani foreign secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. Mr Naik said U.S. officials told him of the plan at a U.N. sponsored international, contact group on Afghanistan which took place in Berlin. He told the BBC that at the meeting the us representatives told him that unless Bin Laden was handed over swiftly, America would take military action to kill or capture both Bin Laden and the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar. The wider objective, according to Mr Naik, who is MIND YOU RETIRED and a PAKI, would be to topple the Taliban regime and install a transitional government of moderate (read manageable by US Oil men) Afghans in its place - possibly under the leadership of the former Afghan King Zahir Shah. Mr Naik was told that Washington would launch its operation from bases in Tajikistan, (implying full Ruski cooperation) where American advisers were already in place. He was told that Uzbekistanwould also participate in the operation and that 17,000 Russian troops were on standby to AID IN THIS SEIZURE. (!) (At this point your AGATHA CHRISTIE CUI BONUM machinery starts clicking and you realize that RUSSIA and USA had imperialist aims related to that sand pit, i.e. it was to be pipeline for OIL biz between the new Capitalistniks in the Aparatchik Formerly known as Russia and the combined Bush/Houston/Global Marine, Sta Fe Internat'l cum Kuwait forces, i.e. their brand new corporation, only weeks old, merged September 4th, 2001.) Naik had been told by his contacts that if the military action went ahead it would take place before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest. He said that he was in no doubt that after the world trade center bombings this pre-existing us plan had been built upon and would be implemented within two or three weeks and he said it was doubtful that Washington would drop its plan even if Bin Laden were to be surrendered immediately by the Taliban. 3.) Russia knew in advance...(obviously, see above) proven by fact IT encouraged citizens to cash out dollars: Russian press accounts and other activities by the russian government this summer indicate that the russians knew in advance that something would happen to america, including a "financial attack" against the u.s. during the past three months, russian media and officials have encouraged citizens to cash out of u.s. dollars pending an economic collapse there after an "attack." http://www/newsmax.com 9-17-01 4) The FBI tracked a PILOT TERRORIST (currently in custody) 2 weeks before attacks: "two weeks before the terrorist attacks in new york city and Washington, D.C., FBI agents were at a flight school in Oklahoma asking questions about a man now suspected of having a link to those attacks", according to CNN. "The fact that FBI agents were at the airman flight school in Norman, Oklahoma, two weeks before any attacks would seem to contradict the agencyís assertion that it was not aware of any connection between aviation schools and suspected terrorists. FBI director Robert Mueller has stated publicly, "there were no warning signs that Iím aware of that would indicate this type of operation in the country," http://cnn.com 9-18-01 somebody is lying! 5) USA pulled plug on 500 Arab/Muslim websites the day before jetliner attacks: five hundred websites - many of them with an arab or muslim connection - crashed when an anti-terrorism task force raided infocom corporation in texas. The 80-strong task force that descended upon the company included FBI agents, secret service agents, diplomatic security agents, tax inspectors, immigration officials, customs officials, department of commerce officials and computer experts. (Brian Whitaker 9-12-01) 6) 6 YEARS AGO, U.S. was warned in 1995 of plot to hijack planes, attack buildings: the FBI was warned of a terrorist plot to hijack commercial planes and slam them into the Pentagon, the CIA headquarters and other buildings, Philippine investigators told CNN just a few days ago. The plan was termed ''Project Bojinka.' (manila, philippines cnn 9-18-01) 7) U.S government had prior knowledge of OSAMA CELLS. As ex CIA chief Stansfield Turner admitted, Oct 3rd, on CNN cable, US/ FBI had prior knowledge of 4 to 6 Bin Laden cells in the USA. That means the cells were completely bugged. Every phone line, every cell phone, every email. Turner said they couldn't move in and arrest them as a.) they'd done nothing illegal, and b.) each man was here LEGALLY. Which brings us to the fact: 8.) INS sold citizenship to terrorists for 6 thousand dollars a piece, as an 'under the table' bribe. There was interest in having these Bin Laden cells 'peopled' or 'filled out, as here inside USA, it was easy to watch and eavesdrop on them. An INS career officer, out of the ORLANDO FLorida INS office, caught and ratted out her bosses for selling citizenship to terrorists. When her bosses abused her, she sued the INS/ USA as a whistleblower and she won in court, a large cash settlement. The INS is currently appealing that decision. She Filed with aid of lawyer Donald Apignani in Florida. During her lawsuit, the INS officer sent all her evidence to John Ashcroft, head man at Dept of Justice, Atty Gen for USA. He did not answer her but sent the whole package back to her bosses. He did not want to know about it. The outraged INS officer woman is suing again in California, and while file any day, now. But let's go back to NUMBER 7, U.S had PRIOR KNOWLEDGE 7.) CONTINUED -FOREIGN SPIES TOLD American CIA that the TERRORIST ATTACK WAS COMING THAT WEEK! That the Sept 11th birthday of ISRAEL might be the day. (72 years ago) Among the foreign intelligence agencies who penetrated the plots were French DEUXIEME BUREAU and ISRAEL'S MOSSAD units of both often working with one another. Foreign intelligence sources confirm the validity of this story and they state that they informed the U.S. Secret police who absolutely failed, neglected, and outright refused to take action as to known prior specifics of which the top-level of the CIA were informed in advance. http://www.skolnicksreport.com 9-13-01 8.) THERE WAS A deliberate leak from a double agent in the White House. Terrorists had ultra secret codes day they attacked WTC and said as much. That they had the secret phones at White House, knew where POTUS was, Air Force One, all reported on http://worldnetdaily.com as well as in all media, Sept 22nd, 2001. 9) DEAD GIVEAWAY in unusual and SUSPICIOUS market activity reported before the attacks: "Chicago traders on Wednesday cited unusual activity in airline options up to a month before 911 emergency and German bankers reported brisk activity in Reinsurer Munich adding to speculation that those behind the attacks tried to profit from their acts. (Reuters 9-20-01) How come everyone knew this was going to happen? Why would the USA. refuse to investigate when told, unless it was their own plan all along? FDR knew of Japanís coming attack on Pearl Harbor. It certainly appears that the USA/ NWO/ CIA /NSC NSA Secret White house elite who govern US backed by OLIGARCHS, BANKERS, knew in advance that a great catastrophe was about to occur on American soil and did absolutely nothing in order to prevent it. What could have been done? Plenty. For starters, weapon-seeking X-ray security at all airports could have been beefed up. Air bases could have been put on alert. Planes should have been airborne upon the first indication of a hijacking. as it was, these hijacked planes were in the air for as much as a 30 minutes or more, after being hijacked and diverted, and yet totally unchallenged by military aircraft. At best, this was totally inept; and at worst, stinks of collusion. There are many, many unanswered questions concerning the collapse of the towers. For example, why did the towers collapse? many engineers have stated that they were built to withstand an aircraft hit, and also to endure temperatures of 2,000 degrees. in addition, why did the south tower fall first, considering that it was hit by the second aircraft? CBC news replayed an ABC interview with two American heroes that rescued a handicapped person in the north tower. they said that while leaving the tower, they heard an explosion, turned around and saw the tower collapsing, and then ran for their lives. The question is: what explosion? the first tower was hit an hour and 45 minutes before this explosion, therefore, it could not have been from the jet fuel. Another quote from the same article previously mentioned: why did the towers implode instead of explode? The towers came down as gracefully as a fountain of water. "too methodical to be a chance result of airplanes colliding with the structures" said Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology. "My opinion is that after the airplanes hit the world trade center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse," romero said. romero is a former director of the energetic materials research and testing center at tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures. The towers imploded! they did not explode! a fuel fire causes an explosion, not an implosion. explosions explode out. implosions, implode in! implosions can only occur with immense planning by a highly skilled group of craftsmen educated in the unique skill of demolishing buildings by strategically placing explosive devices within the building. this requires many experts, much time and significant access to the building beforehand. the skill of implosion of buildings was developed primarily to demolish buildings in areas of high building density, so the destruction of the structure will not cause damage to the surrounding buildings. in addition, the towers came down long after the planes struck. It is ludicrous to suggest that fuel dumping from the airplanes caused a fire hot enough to melt the inner structure first of all, who can prove the planes dumped all of their fuel into the core of the building? second, why did the fuel take so long to catch fire? third, fuel-fires cause explosions, not implosions! fourth, the structure was built to withstand temperatures of 2000 degrees fahrenheit, according to the architect and designer of the building, a man who is now deceased, but who preserved this nugget of information in an interview he recorded in 1998. Hyman Brown, a university of colorado civil engineering professor and the world trade centerís construction manager, watched in confusion as the towers came down. "it was over-designed to withstand almost anything including hurricanes, high winds, bombings and an airplane hitting it," he said. (Scripps Howard news service 9-11,01 and 9-12-01)So, why was it necessary to implode the whole structure? to eliminate evidence, just as was done to the Murrah building in Oklahoma City, before the forensic specialists could get in to examine the evidence. Just like the branch davidian compound at Waco was bulldozed by the government before any evidence could be examined. And the expert hired to look at 'flashes' caught on video who told his friends that flashes proved FBI shot every child that tried to get outÖ. that man was himself killed, the day before he was to testify to Congress. Conclusion: this was a highly skilled endeavor by a large group of well-trained people with access to the buildings, the airplanes and the explosives. they would have had to blend into the population and not look suspicious. and the bldgs in question had, a few weeks earlier, been sold BY GOV to Mr. Silverstein. NYC previously owned them (read Chase Manhattan Bank, and Citibank and those two together ARE the IMF..) Poor Mr Silverstein was 3.2 billion short and STEPFATHER BANK was out from under. Look on the Bright Side Mr. Silverstein. Not many renters get a chance to rebuild on the spot with the IMF financing them. Demolition was cheap! a few sticks of dynamite here, there. You still have a hundred year lease.... The real question is when it comes to downing two skyscrapers, who would have these qualifications? certainly not a group of Arab "terrorists" who bungled the l993 bombing and got caught. Who gained from these attacks? Not terrorists, not Al-Qaeda. It was the plantary oligarchs that let the terrorists have 'count that little coup', indulged them their one ugly, 15 minutes of fame as they needed AMERICANS TO START FOAMING FOR WAR. Now the Middle East has the wrath of the American eagle descending upon them. What Stone age sand flea in his right mind would want that? Houston had to do it. They were essentially drillers without fields. Pity the poor oligarchs, a plantary economy in deep recession. We weren't buying their stuff (snuffle, sniff) Oligarchs with nowhere to invest. That's how recessions start. When the POOR don't open their wallet, then the rich can't either. Instead of concentrating on the terrorists, take a good look at what was transpiring in the USA and what can be extrapolated from it. They were like Godzillas feasting on our productivity. They took away our factories and salaries and still hoped we'd buy cars. We couldn't. What can they do with a trillion Fords that break down at l00,000 miles and are overpriced when Koreans can make a car that works? SELL US A WAR is what! PART II. What else has happened since the attacks? 1) the population has been in one moment, prepared psychologically and economically, for a long term war where the number of U.S.. casualties will be high (Washington Post online September 21, 2001). 2) Bush created a new office of "homeland security" (read SS, ) supposedly to protect Americans from attack. The job would involve coordination of government-wide domestic security efforts, including meshing domestic FBI, and foreign CIA intelligence, working alongside US. military, emergency officials and state and local governments. Wanna bet that this new, patriotic homeland defense position will probably not need senate confirmation, which other cabinet jobs require, nor legislation to create" white house officials said. so there will be no investigation, oversight nor accountability for this group's actions. An abrogation of our Constitution. (Reuters - Washington 9-21-01) 3) U.S. orders 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine for $343 million in preparation for a possible bioterrorism assault. the contract has been given to a small, cambridge-based firm Acambis, a British biotechnology company who reported a net loss of $8 million in the six months prior to June 30, unchanged from last year. (how convenient to get this huge order! It would be interesting to find the crony-ism involved, here.) (Reuters news, London 9-20-01) And the media is blaring everywhere about anthrax, small box, Saran gas, preparing the population to expect bio-terrorism. 4) America and Britain are co-producing secret plans to launch a ten year "war on terrorism" - Operation Noble Eagle - involving a completely new military and diplomatic strategy to eliminate terrorist networks and cells around the world." (The Times -London 9-20-01). 5) The American Senate already OKAYED the FBI spying on the internet: fbi agents soon will be able to spy on internet users legally without a court order. Two days after the terrorist attack, the senate approved the "combating terrorism act of 2001" which enhances police wiretap powers and permits monitoring in more situations. the fbiís surveillance system is called carnivore. (Lycos network 9-20-01) 6) The U.S. plans to overthrow taliban and put Afghanistan under United Nations control, according to The Manchester Guardian - London (9-21-01) note: Yugoslavia is already under U.N. control. 7) A global surveillance system known as echelon exists and has the ability to eavesdrop on telephone calls, faxes and e-mail messages. Face-id technology gains new support. "State lawmakers who were planning to sponsor legislation restricting its use now say they are reassessing their plans." (Denver Post Capitol Bureau, 9-20-01) 9) "Experts see a high-security america of surveillance & seizures": new york: security experts in the united states are describing a new kind of country that could emerge, where electronic identification might become the norm, immigrants might be tracked far more closely and the airspace over cities like new york and washington might be off-limits to all civilian aircraft." (the nternational herald tribune 9-19-01) more surveillance of u.s. citizens. 10) "Lawmakers see need to loosen rules on CIA" Congressional leaders, who oversee the nationís intelligence system (yeah right!) have concluded that americaís spy agencies should be allowed to combat terrorism with more aggressive tactics, including the hiring of unsavory foreign agents, including revived discussion of reversing the us 25 year ban on using covert agents to assassinate foreigners. R. James Woolsey, the former director of the CIA said that "Washington has absolutely undergone a change in thinking this week." (New York Times, 9-16-01) So what we're getting for our intelligence nickle is a dime's worth of surveillance of u.s.citizens! 11) NATO announces a third world war is almost upon us. A Pentagon spokesman hinted towards potential targets being Libya, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, north korea, Syria and others. (NATO secretary-general lord Robertson) 12) California congresswoman, Mary Bono, R-Palm Springs warned that the country should prepare for a fight against international terrorists that will likely include personal sacrifice, the use of ground troops overseas and the risk of retaliation against civilians by the enemy. she alsopredicts intense scrutiny of airline passengers, a national system of fingerprinting and identification cards and the spectre of chemical and biological attacks on the u.s. (the Desert Sun 9-18-01) 13) An enemy is needed to justify a $344 billion war budget, when the federal government currently spends only $42 billion on education, $26 billion on affordable housing and bizarrely low, $1 billion on school construction. 14) President Bush sent his anti-terrorism bill to Congress one week after the WTC/Pentagon attack, launching an emotional debate that will force u.s. politicians to choose between continued freedom for americans or greater security. (Lycos network 9-20-01) does anybody know how long it takes to write one of these bills? it takes months! they are hundreds of pages long. this one was obviously written before the attack! how convenient! wake up America! 15) "President Bush focused his energy on building a global alliance for a fight against terrorism..." (MSNBC 9-18-01) here comes the new world order! 1984! 16) fast-moving house bill restricts liberties - much of it unrelated to terrorism! congress is being asked to rush to pass emergency anti-terrorist legislation written by the department of justice, but much of the legislation turns out to have nothing to do with fighting terrorism. instead, the legislation contains a host of items which have been on the bureaucratic wish lists for many years. 17) "we must ignore the peace lobby and show no restraint" says the Independent (hardly!)- London (9-24-01) 1 bush suspends habeas corpus: legal immigrants may be held without cause: "the bush administration today announced it is using its powers under the national emergency act to suspend the right of habeas corpus for all immigrants in the country, including legal immigrants, meaning that any immigrant in the u.s. right now can be held indefinitely by the police or government without trial or demonstration of cause to hold them." and daily on the tv they talk of putting chips in us so we can be identified, ostensibly so no Arab can steal our identity. They want us to have our true identity! though no one has yet suggested infringing the rights of U.S. citizens, the move is a frightening first step to a national tyranny, based on perpetual suspension of the constitution in the name of fighting perpetual war." l984 came, l7 years LATE. 19) President bush has agreed to bail out the airlines with billions of dollars, an industry that was swimming in red ink long before the wtc/pentagon attacks. It is obvious to anyone who has eyes to see, and ears to hear, that American citizens are going to lose their freedom. the process has already begun. eventually the entire world will lose theirs as well. Consider for a moment, the national I.D.card that is being proposed. Like any passport it could be counterfeited. A national ID card can only be concluded as the logical first step. when it is acknowledged, as not accomplishing its task, and then, guess what's waiting in the wings? A switch to micro chip technology would be sought as the only viable solution. 666 I believe the bible prophecy freaks call it. It means that you can wear a chip in your butt just like your Dalmation. When you have surfed around there, and read just a few articles, youíll be ready to play this Agatha Christie Solve the Mystery of who killed the Big Twins game, armed with the following secret maps I'm going to give you of what you should be seeking, searching out... 1.) FOREIGN ALLIES. What if IQ 80 Bush Jr. really had no idea that the terrorists were coming. (cough!). Very unlikely as we have seen but what if there was actually a nation state that did this as a covert military action. Someone behind Osama. Someone running him. Who might that be? http://www.morphmaster.com/binladen.htm (surf there). Who was close to Osama in his lifetime? Someone was running him before or after the USA ran him in the 80's. Reporters who know him say heís a happy space case dunce. Kind of like our old friend Lee Harvey Oswald whose last words alive were ' I'm a Patsy.' In another famous, CIA/OSS/SS action called the JFK HIT. It took a team of sharp shooters on the GrassyKnoll to take out JFK. Look at the Twins Murder. It was was waaaay too organized. The terrorists are said to have spoken German. Residents there for a long time, maybe? What German Terrorist movements exists full of ex nazi handlers who work the local natives aligned with a faction of the ancient Teutonic OSS/ CIA/ SS? Working the European end of the street on behalf of the Planet's mega oligarchs, the Cash numero unos of the planet? Who but a devious Dr. Strangelove Mastermind could have created a German based Arab branch of the Meiner Badhof gang? You do know that after WWII, half the SS was moved to Langley, the other half stayed in Europe to watch the Commies. The NWO CIA has had ex nazis running its think tanks since '45.. Next, SO WHAT if they had Arab names? They still could be GERMANIFIED Arabs. In Germany, having an Arab is like having a Rottweiler. Maybe the poor Arabs are patsies. Maybe the Taliban was a kind of red herring bacteria allowed to grow rife through the middle east so that the Nazi/ NWO OPEC CIA could demonstrate it was high time for Sulfa. It was warrented and they should be allowed to bring in the bleach. Why did IQ 80's handlers take out 6k people and blame the Stone Age Al-Qaeda? What did they stand to gain if Arabs were implicated? OK. Think back. What did Hitler gain when he got people to believe that THREE DEAD POLACKS he'd dressed up in GERMAN uniforms were HIS OWN GERMAN BOYS, 'attacked on the border by Nasty old Poland' in 1939? He got to have WWII making his handlers happy. What did Lyndon Johnson gain when he made it seem that a simple lightning strike on the high seas was a VIET CONG attack on US Battleships? Answer: He got to send US soldiers to Nam. (before only instructors were there, it was a local civil war, remember?) Then Lyndon was trying to nab the richest oil field of planet which is right off shore south of Nam for his Handlers. The Seven SISTERS wanted that war. Dutch Petroleum, Mobil, Exon, Shell, etc.. The Commander of that American battleship later said it was just lightning flashes. Said so in his bio! 56,000 American lives later. And what did FDR get when he let Japs bomb Hawaii? To get his peacenik people to go to a EUROPEAN war! So here, 2001, what's the cui bonum and in whose lap do the cui bonum goodies possibly land? Follow the money trail of the future. Sniff the air blowing down upon your sons and daughters. What are the other possible future scenarios and cui bonums of re-zoning the mideast into Exxonia? Mobilia? Instead of Iraq and Iran? DIRTY AIR is what. Our babies dying of cancer of the lungs, tumors in the brain as every Chinaman gets a Ford. They want to sell us cars and gasoline forever. We can run fine on electric cars, ask Ed Begley Jr. but they want us in hock to the company store. Now that sounds pretty venal (of them, not me. I'm just reporting it) but why else would they risk throwing planet into war? Is there anything else they might want over there? Goats? Harem girl with cymbals? Camels? NO. OIL and only OIL. And where is it? IN THE CASPIAN. Russia has it. That's why RUSSIA is in on this. She is selling us the oil, she is drilling it. she enters the world economy and only this war gets her in. (Heck, every war does!) I say let her in, but let her sell us Russian art, fur coats, electric cars, anything but OIL to befoul the planet's air with fuel! FOSSIL FUEL is sheer poison! Ten possible reasons why the rich and greedy would commit, or allow the commission of the crimes in new york and d.c. and blame the taliban: 1.) Prior to sept. 11, 2001: (1) the world was about to enter a deep recession/depression because the super rich could not find a single thing worth investing in. They had tried everything, moved factories to the third world, paying a dollar a day salaries, which threw US citizens out of work. They build/ tried to sell cheaper washingmachines and cars, but as Marx predicted, at that point, NOBODY anywhere could afford them. Sales slowed to a trickle. The rich pulled their money out of everything! They recognized the stock market was bogus. They had to regroup. Depression is when the people stop buying, as they are in debt. That debt is a result of high prices, low wages, the growing inequities, the lack of the ëfamedí Keynesian "trickle down" and the gross exploitation of labor in the USA and all over the world. 2.) Create an enemy to take the heat. Destruction of the WTC gives the appearance that this phenomenon is the result of the "terrorists" attack. it makes hungry, angry disenfranchised, 'outcrowd' third worlders, who ëwonít work their way up in the world, seem puny, jealous, miserable, backbiting and makes all those who may inwardly also be a little jealous of wealth guilty and quiet. 4.) The wtc property was sold only two weeks before the atack by the INTERNATIONAL MONEY FUND, (Chase manhattan, Citibank and the ostensible 'owner', the Port Authority of NYC who all together HAD owned the twin towers. They sold for 3.2 billion, a huge profit by the way, for an Eco-disaster bldg that every Arab psychopath was KNOWN to be targeting...! And they sold it to an individual, Silverstein. The ultimate pig in a poke! The property was 30 years old, (from time of opening) and in need of millions of dollars in renovation and repairs. 5.) the airline industry was about to go bankrupt due to mismanagement, high fuel costs and simply having too many planes for the declining passenger volume. now they can blame their troubles on the wtc attack and get billions of dollars in government bail-out cash. (6) George Dubya, IQ 80, and his Dad's friends in the Houston oil community had just consummated the biggest merger of oil related businesses ever, with 3 partners. First, kuwait as a 17% partner, next, cia propriatary global marine, and third, houston based sta fe petrol, all of career CIA guy Bush Sr's oil pals. A war on the arabs might well put them in a position to confiscate many oilfields and other minerals in the middle east, turn Afghanistan to toast, so they can lay pipes wall to wall and get the huge ruski oil deposits to the saudis for processing. (7) The "military-industrial complex" Ike warned us about cannott make their huge profits on weapons and other war related hardware without a war and the army can't make fruit salad for its bosom without war. 8.) Thereís nothing like a "good" war to rally the misinformed public around the corrupt and fraudulent government, taking the focus off of all of the stupidity, criminal conduct and immorality of so many of the "honorable gentlemen" in congress and the other branches of government. 9.) There is nothing in the social security and medicare trusts except i.o.u's from THE USA to its people. the money was spent long ago, and thereís no way that theretirement and medical needs of the "baby-boomers" can be funded. a huge, drawn out war will provide an excuse as to why the money is gone, ie. to pay for the war. (more lies) 10.) Taliban heroin isn't controlled by CIA the way Burma, Thai, Laotian Hmong, Golden Triangle china white was (see Air America the movie --again.) CIA is like the MAFIA. They take out the competition. The French Connection movie (rent it) was about NY COPS taking out the other exporters, the Corsicans, destroying them so that all ingresses from "made in Asia by Americans , i.e. loyal patriotic dope, sold to American addicts, goes to cia coffers and cia nugan hand BCCI type CIA banks. Thanks to Ronnieís wife nancy, there are less and less addicts every day so no chance CIA wants most of its diminishing dope biz going to competitors! The CIA has been dealing drugs for 52 years with the help of Meyer Lansky's Syndicate, Nixon, the Bush CIA/OIL lineage, and it's rumored with the help of Nixon's pals' Pepsi Cola bottling companies in Vietnam. http://www.tomdavisboo ks.com/library/50yearsciadrug.html What happened in New York, is indeed, a terrible act, regardless of whom is responsible. like many webs of deceit, we probably will not know the complete truth until much later. what we do know, is that god allowed it. He is in total control and we must have faith in his judgement. Is america now going to have its wings cut with this assault on innocent, little stone age Afghanistan? These and many other questions will eventually be answered. It is our duty to wait and see the hand of the eternal, and just pray for and seek his protection, mercy, love and deliverance from all that seems to be about to come to pass? are we sure that these NWO types need to rejuggle the borders, organize things, chip us, fiche us? for the right reasons? is it useful to the whole? my spiritual friends say ëeverything that happens is perfect.í My also very spiritual and pragmatic economist friend karl marx said ëmake something better happen than what the men in power are doing for their own solvency. Trickle down is a myth.í So, if this is the truth, what do we do? read up, study. . intelligence gathering should have many inputs. SEND this article or others like it to the news agencies. The information you read at the URLS above may be rejected by a few, brain-washed jerks, and it may be reported to those who take orders from the Nazis BY OTHER JERKS who take orders from the Nazis. But so what? If enough of us share the truth, they don't rap knuckles cuz there are too many knuckles to rap. Surfing to any of these URLS would be a test to see if your head is on your shoulders or if some one else, some robot behind you, is doing your thinking for you. It is quite possible that when you watch CNN and NBC and ABC and even CBS, you are being PLAYED like a lute and led like a rooster in a Tijuana Cockfight into blinding, killing yourself and your sons.. Only by researching can you save your family from being part of this bloody spectacle. Only by using that PC to surf will you save your grandkids from living in a burnt fuel cloud that burns holes in their brain. Only by demanding that Detroit build ALTERNATIVE fuel cars will you save your great grandchildren from death by bullet or tumor. Only by volunteering to drive an alt fueled car will you save your sweet air, your planet's agriculture, your descendants. Only by writing your Congressman and saying it in your own, quiet way in a hard copy letter, (they don't read email!) And while you're at it, drop a note to alt fuel car proponent Ed Begley Jr. at c/o Screen Actors Guild, Sunset Blvd. Hollywood 90028 saying "tell me more, who can I write to for details?" Only then, when you've communicated to your elected officials, can you say that you did your job to keep your children from fighting a decade long war that would kill millions, enrich a few billionaires, poison every nation's air with this demon smog making fossil fuel, which has thrown the planet entirely off kilter so that nothing clean grows here so that your grandchildren starve to death. We are at a precipice. A cliff is before us. Don't leap into war. Our name is not LEMMING. We do not jump foolishly into the void. We are the Humans of Earth. We have a voice. We have the internet. We type. We read. WE WRITE! USE those TALENTS to stop America from going on another stupid, cruel oil war and one based on lies and fraud at that!
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:10 PM You won't get any argument from me if you say that Bin Laden is a dangerous fanatic, Doug. I was just trying to offer a long range philosophical solution for the world in a general sense, not offering advice on how to deal with specific criminal acts. Every movement, even Communist revolution, finds a few wealthy in the ranks...such is human idealism. Castro's family was quite well off. Jack - We didn't force constitutional democracy on the Germans. They had had it for some time prior to the Nazis winning an election there. We forced defeat on them, and provided the conditions where (in the West, at least) they could re-institute constitutional democracy. As for the Japanese, again, we forced defeat upon them, whereupon they gave up on a war policy and entirely willingly set up a constitutional democracy. They were, at that point, utterly disillusioned with military expansionist government. Just nitpicking...I know what you meant. :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM LH, Shame on you for believing the history books;), Technically you are correct. USA has kept troops in both countries ever since. MacAuthur et al strongly suggested a Japanese constitution. I don't think another totalitarian govenment was an option in Germany. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:15 PM Well Ted, thanks for the compilation. Iread it all and I'll go read some of the linked stuff for chuckles later...........Geeziz, they really are coming out of the woodwork aren't they? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: M.Ted Date: 08 Oct 01 - 09:59 PM S'Paw, Some of the links are to mainstream things, like the Washington Post--Again, I didn't compile, I just nabbed it from the Freemasonry Website, where they have links to everything from insightful analysis to, well, this sort of thing---I am not really clear where they got it--One thing should be clear, and that is that the Islamic world doesn't have a corner on people who are seriously out there-- |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM Have you checked out any of the Illumanautus stuff? It'll curl your hair to think that some people really believe that stuff. Skeptic has some of those sites bookmarked and they are strange troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:55 PM When it comes to Illuminati conspiracy theories - no organization is that organized. With the exception of oil interests...and those get pretty messy. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:19 AM USAT reports that when Osama Bin Laden made the virulently anti-American videotape that was distributed world-wide on Sunday, in at least one detail he demonstrated an appreciation for something American. According to a U.S. Marine quoted by the paper, Bin Laden was wearing one of the service's camouflaged field jackets, which by law are manufactured in the U.S. Hey, even the terrorists like our stuff, man! |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:54 AM I was disheartened to hear of civilian deaths being confirmed by the U.N. Four people who were working with an NGO in Kabul. No idea who or what they were. Considering the mass slaughter that began this chapter this is a ridiculous and trivial side effect of war. But I believe we must keep our eyes open to those side effects and not become jaded about them. We have got to understand the impact of our actions on noncombatants, or the rationale of military action of any kind becomes meaningless. A
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Paul from Hull Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM Amos, they were part of the Land-mine clearing operation - the building hit was the HQ of that 'operation' in Afghanistan. Whats NGO, btw? |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Peter T. Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM Sorry stand corrected. 26 million. 5 million to the U.S., rest to gallant NATO allies. Paris, anyone? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Deda Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:15 PM NGO = Non Government Organization. Includes various non-profits and charitable groups, in the main -- but someone will probably have a more expansive explanation. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Paul from Hull Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM Aha....Thanks, Deda! |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM YEs, Deda, thanks. Thanks for being a bright light in the world, a wonderful woman and a first rate mind, a terrific Mom and a wunnerful sister! A. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Deda Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:21 PM Gosh, yikes, blush! 'Twarn't nothin', really. ;-> |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM How bout a good ole beer drinkin bin Laden hatin song? I just happen to have one here ...sort of a ballad* ........................
In the early morning hours , there were ghosts up in the sky. In a land that loved its freedom, and the towers that stood high. In the early morning hours an enemy unknown, was on their way, there was no warning, on that crystal clear September day They loved their God and aimed the planes for the wrath that he has wrought. Soon the enemy had a face that said "I'm innocent, you deserved what you got" ON 911 a faceless, enemy showered NY ...with PAPER, AIRPLANES AND BODIES... STEEL BLOOD AND GUTS. The Saudis are respondsible, along with Allah's unholy love. IF you think it ends here, you surely must be nuts. After all the God damn wars weve had, for some God that is above, Is it time to drink some beer and sing [shouted]"lets give this god a shove". The faceless enemies were here and we scarcly gave a glance While in their hearts and minds was their Allah's violence. The love of God has promised you, that you'll change the course of time. The depth and horror of your hate, was to us, the greatest crime. Somewhere tonight, there is the man that plots his war. Plots the schemes, plots the deaths and how much it will cost. It is not for God , it is not for love but for a family he has lost. The war he wants is yet another holocaust. An eye for an eye, a scar in the sky, the shock and horror for families that cried. We will find a way , to teach you, its not a god who hated liberty, it was a bearded man that lied. Its not a god that hated liberty , it was a bearded man that lied.
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM Hmmm. You must be pretty proud of this one, Donuel, since you posted it also on the Anti-War Song thread. You gonna post it in all the threads? DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:13 PM NO Doug I apologize how hidious the first version was it is simply a revised version like this one, this time I think I got it right. That is if I have your permission? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the early morning hours, there were ghosts up in the sky. In a land that loved its freedom, and the towers that stood high. In the early morning hours an enemy unknown, was on their way, there was no warning, on that crystal clear September day |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: M.Ted Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:20 PM I like the line in the song you posted in another thread about "Love means not having to say you're Saudi"--Nice thought-- |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:35 PM I guess thats what Guilliani thought when he tore up the $10 million check from a Saudi prince today. For those that are forgiving enough to let me evolve a song online here is the latest version of the ballad {Love is never having to say you're Saudi} In the early morning hours, there were ghosts up in the sky. In a land that loved its freedom, and the towers that stood high . In the early morning hours an enemy unknown, was on their way, there was no warning, on that clear September day They loved their God and aimed the planes for the wrath that he has wrought. Soon the enemy had a face that said "I'm innocent, you deserved what you got" ON 911 a faceless enemy attacked NY ...with AIRPLANES, FUEL AND CUTS ... STEEL, BLOOD AND GUTS. The Saudis are responsible, along with Allah's unholy love. IF you think it ends here, you surely must be nuts. After all the God danm wars , for some God that is above, Is it time to drink some beer and shout "lets give this god a shove". The faceless enemies were here, and we scarcely gave a glance While in their hearts and minds was Allah's violence. The love of God has promised you, that you'll change the course of time. The depth and horror of your hate, was to us, the greatest crime. Somewhere tonight, there is the man that plots his sacred war. Plots the deaths, plots the score and how much it will cost. It is not for God , it is not for love but for a family he has lost. The war he wants at his bequest is another holocaust. An eye for an eye, a scar in the sky, the shock and horror for families that cried. We will find a way, to teach you, its not a god who hated liberty, it was a bearded man that lied. Its not a god that hated liberty , it was a bearded man that lied. Don Hakman Oct.11, 2001 |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:24 PM Hey Don: It would ber a kindness to your readers if you would put a break character (the letters "br" enclosed in angle brackets) at the end of each line. While the code at the Mudcat end recognizes the double-return as a paragraph break it does not process single returns as line breaks, and as a result the lines of your poem stream together into paragraphs. Then it would look more like this:
Love is never having to say you're Saudi
They loved their God and aimed the planes for the wrath that he has wrought. After all the God danm wars , for some God that is above, The love of God has promised you, That you'll change the course of time.
(As an aside it will sing better if you rework the lines to have similar numbers f rhythmic syllables, and rhyme in the same pattern in each stanza. )
Regards,
A |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,petr Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:56 PM lh. ONe point, the Japanese were not all that crazy for the American style constitution - in fact they were in complete shock when it was presented to them. I lived in Japan in 1990-91 in fact I watched the GUlf war over there, and believe it oor not - if you peeled away the layers of the society there is still a lot of resentment of America, especially by the older generation who lived through the war. Of course you get all extremes, there are groups that believe the Emperor is a GOd and there are others that would like to kill him. In the long run they have since come to accept and enjoy the democratic system but I dont think they jumped on it right away. If youve never had democracy you dont really know what youre missing. WHich makes me wonder what the Middle Eastern countries would be like if you allowed free elections (certainly the freely elected government in Algeria was overthrown even though the rebels that fight against the current govt. are extreme Islamists. I still believe that an unknown factor is the anti-Islamic backlash within those countries, especially Iran. I knew an Iranian working in Japan who said the greatest danger to the Iranian govt is the young population that is tired of living under the extreme religious rules and would prefer the western lifestyle. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:37 AM petr, I have heard that also. troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:11 AM Nope, Donuel, post it all you like as far as I'm concerned. Some Mudcatter might read it, record it, make a fortune on it, and if you copywrited it, you might be rich some day. YOU DIDN'T APPLY FOR A COPYWRITE? DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:06 AM Amos , thanks for the help. Computers came rather late in life for me. I followed your suggestions including a cohesive rhythm and rhyme. In the early morning hours, there were ghosts up in the sky. In a land that loved its freedom, and the towers that stood high . In the early morning hours with enemies on their way,
we had no decent warning, on that clear September day A man with a black beard,said "you deserve just what you got"
A faceless enemy attacked NY ...with AIRPLANES, FUEL AND KNIVES . They did not care who they killed, children men or wives. We watched children dancing in the street from lessons they had learned. After all the God damn wars , for some God that is above,
now Saudis and their great god say its just a little shove. If you think we'll just leave it here you are sadly fuckin nuts. Wisdom and compassion's out, we have all agreed.
If it is a god we fight lets see if he can bleed. While in their hearts and minds was Allah's violence. The love of God has promised you, that you'll change the course of time.
The depth and horror of your hate, was to us, the greatest crime.
The war he wants at his request is another holocaust. We will find a way, to teach you, you will learn or you will die. Its not god that hated freedom, it was a bearded man that lied. Its not god that hated freedom , it was a bearded man that lied |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:08 AM Oh crap I give up |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:44 AM "Were gonna smoke out them evil doers" What a cartoonish thing for our President to say. Evil doers everywhere beware. 'Super Bush' DC Comics |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM Maybe Bush actually did inhale? A |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:28 AM Petr - Interesting stuff there about Japan. I'm not surprised they were in a state of shock when presented with an American style constitution. After all, you have to imagine what it would be like if your nation (let's say the USA) fought in a huge war of several years duration...had most of its cities bombed into wreckage, and its Navy sunk...was then forced to surrender unconditionally in an elaborate ceremony to its foreign opponents, on a battleship moored in the Potomac River within sight of the White House (which would at that point be occupied by foreign troops)...and was then informed that the victors had a whole new governmental system plan all worked out for the USA, a much better one than you have had in the past....and if you will just sit down and listen, they will tell you how it's all going to be done. Are we talking about a mild state of shock here...or a total state of indescribable dumfounded disbelief??? Think about it. Specially in a country that has never before in history surrendered to anyone or even thought of doing so. Would there be resentment in the USA about this a generation or two later. Hmmmm? I wonder. I am drawing up this little scenario not to attack what you said in any way...what you said was interesting. But it is always useful to put yourself in the other guys shoes when considering such things. Just as the Japanese may have a hard time relating to people still being upset about the horrific atrocities their military forces committed in China and elsewhere...the Americans may have a hard time understanding why they are resented for striding like a colossus into other cultures and replacing other people's customs and ways with their own, as if it were God's will that it should so be done. This is the blindness and complacency of great political and military powers. All of them. - LH |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Donuel Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:42 PM Animosity is still less than transparent in the US regarding the civil war. North vs. South has quite a legacy of strident language and sterotypes. There will always be a lingering aftertaste of victory or defeat in any conflict. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM Here's an interesting piece on the obsolescence of US PsyOps equipment, using broadcast and leaflets approaches that have been in place since WWII and the Desert Storm op. WhatI think we ought to do is use Barney technology -- blended with the little robot dogs now being exported from Japan. We should flood the skiesd of Afghanistan with little soft furry camels or rabbits who robotically hop around and sidle up to humans and tell them how Bush is really just against terrorists not Afghans, and other important bits. We could probably deploy a million of them for the price of one of the Psyops planes they are buying. Little parachuted furry animabots who speak Arabic. "Sala'a'm aleikum!! L'a bes'alik?!! I'm Sinbad the Camel!! Can I be Your Friend?" Kind of a mix between Mister Rogers, a used car salesman, and advanced robotics. IF it didn't win them over, it would probably scare 'em worse than the bunkerbusters, anyway! You saw it here first!! LOL!! Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Oct 01 - 12:46 PM Lemmee take a long shot here................Amos, you're the guy who got the grant to develop the Frisbee into a fighter aircraft aren't you? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM Well, Spaw, here's one the gang in your garage could surely get behind -- the infinite miltary uses of lard: Subject: New Pork Warfare WASHINGTON Pigs, hogs, swine, porkers, barrows, trotters. When Americans aren't eating them hot dogs, bologna, spareribs, pig's knuckles, ham, bacon, pork chops they're adoring them on TV or the big screen. Hollywood has transformed the stinky, snorty critters into lovable pink-bellied icons known affectionately to all of us as "Porky Pig," "Arnold" or "Babe." In short, Americans (with the exception of orthodox Jews) love pigs. But to Islamic fundamentalists, they are just stinky, snorty critters the quintessence of uncleanliness. Indeed, Muslims are forbidden to eat pork by the Koran, their holy book. To knowingly eat pork is to commit an act of sin which could jeopardize their ascension to Paradise. It's not just meat they have to be careful about eating. They also have to check that cheeses and yogurts even cake frosting don't contain "unclean" byproducts such as pork lard. When traveling on American jetliners, orthodox Muslims typically order vegetarian meals to avoid the chance encounter with one of Arnold Ziffel's relatives. On Arabic airliners, they ask for a "blessed" meat called halal. Such non-pork meat has been drained of blood during the slaughtering and butchering process. The Koran forbids the consumption of animal blood (which makes pig's blood virtually radioactive, an observation our military might find useful, as I'll explain further on). So averse to pigs are Islamic fundamentalists, that even coming in contact with them or any part of them, such as their hide means defiling themselves. It's not a sin to touch, say, a pigskin football, but if they do, they are advised to wash their hands immediately. Pig-fat products are on the list of items Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia has declared to be against the sharia, the ruling clerics' interpretation of Islamic law. So, you see, pigs are to Islamic terrorists such as Osama bin Laden and his henchmen what kryptonite is to Superman, or what garlic is to Dracula. Take Mohamed Atta, for example. The suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 hijackers was so careful not to eat pork fat that he scraped the frosting from cakes. Here was a man more afraid of eating a hint of pork in a dessert than flying a jet full speed into a skyscraper. See where I'm going with this? Few in Washington want to admit it, but these Islamic fanatics have baited us into a holy war. And like it or not, we'll have to use their religion against them to win. Psychological warfare U.S. forces should start by dropping leaflets over Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, warning residents, in their native Persian tongue, that we've enlisted Afghani moles to contaminate their water supplies with pig's blood. The propaganda would also warn that American soldiers have greased their bullets with pork fat. We could tell them, while we're at it, that we've ordered special pigskin-lined fatigues for this mission. At night, we could bombard bin Laden's camps with recordings of hog-snorting. If he and his fellow terrorists won't come out of their caves, send pen-loads of trotters in to nuzzle them. Can't find bin Laden? Force-feed Taliban clerics pork rinds until they give up his location. If that doesn't work, air-lift pigs into their mosques. In the meantime, airlines could reupholster plane seats with pigskin, and cover cockpit yokes with the "unclean" hide to repel future Islamic hijackers. For insurance, serve passengers bacon bits instead of peanuts. If their religion is driving them to hate Americans, and rewarding them to kill our people, then it's hardly indecent to use their faith against them to protect us. Hit them where it hurts. They hit us where it hurts and they're already planning to do it again. They're not afraid of death. However, they are afraid of pigs. Send in the porkers, lock them out of Paradise, and watch them surrender.
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 15 Oct 01 - 11:21 PM um....I think some Muslims are also Americans...and also passengers and pilots of airplanes and maybe stewards and stewardesses.. mg |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Troll Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:57 AM It's not as far-fetched as it sounds. The Sepoy Rebellion in India happened because the Native troops (Sepoys) were told by nationalist agitators that the paper cartridges for their new rifles were greased with pig fat to make them waterproof. This was for the Muslim troops. The Hindus were told it was beef tallow. For Muslims, the pig is unclean; for Hindus, the cow is sacred. You can see the makings of splendid complications here. The rumor worked; the troops rose up and began killing all the English men, women, and children they could find. There's no reason it couldn't work again. You'd just have to be very careful to do it in such a way as not to offend those Muslim countries that retain some small bit of friendship for us. troll |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:56 AM I suppose they could try the same kind of pig stuff to push the Israelis and Palestinians into making friends, Amos. After all, that's one of the things the two religions have in common.
I somehow can't see it working though. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:03 AM Yeah, I can really see it..........Arafat and Sharon standing in front of Dubya who is holding a flame thrower looking thing filled with lard........... Okay, now y'all gonna' siddown an work this thing out or I'm sendin' ya' both ta hell." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:01 AM Warmongering, capitalist pigs!!! :-) This whole buncha nonsense started with the Old Testament. Pity the 3 big religions that arose out of it can't get along with each other. - LH |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM Durn, Spaw, I thought you were gonna say standing in front of Bush eating spare ribs. DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Kim C Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:35 PM Ummmmm, I think they use vegetable shortening in most cake icings these days............... |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,petr Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM thanks for your comments Little Hawk, I dont disagree with you although I should have added that when the Japanese politicians were shown the early drafts of the constitution (written by Americans which interestingly enough, included some fairly progressive rights for women thanks to one of the women writers involved) they were shocked - they didnt know what to make of it. Not they were necessarily thankful, they just expected the Americans to leave after a few years but not for them to write their constitution. And incidentally since the womens rights clause was even more advanced than what was guaranteed under the US constitution, the Americans later toned down that section. BUt it does give something to think about, re a Post Taliban Afghanistan, namely a Marshall plan for reconstruction, with some kind of peace keeping govt) Which would provide enough stability for many educated Afghans to return (and many of them are talking about going) . Back then, the US had the foresight to see that they didnt want to repeat the Versailles treaty and all that led to wwii. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:45 PM Most of the evils of the 20th Century can be traced back the way the victors screwed up the ending of the First World War.
Most of the evils of this century will probably grow out of the way the victors screwed up the end of the Cold War. And that includes Afghanistan where, once the Russians had pulled out, the West just turned its back on a devastated country. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST, I, hurricane Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:45 PM It never seemed to me that Bush could be serious that the U.S. has no intention of engaging in nation-building. There doesn't seem to be any real alternative. I do believe that they would not want to be perceived as setting up a government which would have credibility problems. I also had a feeling that a few bombs weren't likely to bring bin Laden out of his cave. So what do you suppose is next? A few special forces incursions, and then . . . Something along the lines of U.N. peacekeeping forces? A big dose of multinational civilization throughout the country, with bin Laden and his friends to act as a cult of assassins if they so choose, until they are finally starved or rooted out? Does NATO have any such authority? Is the U.N. likely? Are there significant Muslim dominated countries who might participate? I sure wish some Arab nations would step up to the plate. If they want respect, as is often reported. . . . It has been reported that the Northern Alliance fears a conspiracy to divide Afghanistan into two regions. Apparently the Afghanistan-Pakistan border is an artificial Western creation which has been traditionally disregarded by the inhabitants. Anyone have predictions? No blame for being wrong. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: CarolC Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM The situation in that area is being further complicated by the tensions between Pakistan and India arising over the fate of Kashmir. Secretary Powell appears to be working on that situation now. That's a pretty sticky situation (both countries have nuclear weapons), and it could be a big problem if it isn't dealt with effectively. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM Yes, I would call it the "Mother of all nasty situations". To predict anything in a mess as tangled as this one would not be easy. - LH |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST,petr Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:18 PM the Pakistanis dont want a Northern Alliance (or United Front) govt, which doesnt represent the majority Pashtun. BUt it seems likely now that the US is withholding major assaults on Taliban troop concentrations until they have worked out a coalition govt including Afghan govt in exile, other educated expatriots, and the UF possibly with the exking Zahir SHah as a unifying figure, but definitely friendly to Pakistan. This really should be an opportunity for the UN as well as the OIC to step in and provide a stable transitional govt. (It can be done, it happened in Postwar Europe although with an Iron Curtain to appease STalin.) I also predict that the post Taliban Afghan govt will definitely include moderate Taliban or former Taliban representatives. Many of them are constantly changing sides. I give the Taliban another month or 2 at most. (these guys are not the Mujahadeen (most of the surviving Mujahadeen were in the Northern alliance) Altough Al Qaeda will probably take longer to root out. But when that is done, it will be by Afghanis and not Americans for political reasons. anyway those are my guesses. I also think there will be an intensified international effort to solve the Palestinian Problem, they really should be given a homeland and many of the Israeli Settlements on their territory should and will be closed. ALthough a Jewish friend of mine thought that perhaps they may just build a wall. As for India, they should respect the UN resolution regarding Kashmir, ie. let the people decide. Im sure that will be difficult as well. Also THere should be increased international pressure to settle the differences between the 1st and 3rd world, including forgiving debts, tackling the issues of unchecked globalism (if anything gave it a blow Sept 11 certainly did), Kyoto as well but those may be pipe dreams.
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: GUEST, I, hurricane Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:14 AM Here's a different take on the prognosis: "Zhirinovsky Says USA Not Interested In Eliminating bin Laden RosBusinessConsulting. Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2001, 6:03 PM Moscow Time The USA in not interested in eliminating or arresting Osama bin Laden, LDPR leader Vladimir Zhirinovsky announced at a press conference in Moscow today. He believes that the main aim of the military campaign in Afghanistan is to weaken India, China and Russia. Zhirinovsky forecasted that military operations in Afghanistan will last 20 or 30 years and they will be accompanied by numerous changes of Afghani leaders and governments. Commenting on the possibility of Russia's participation in this campaign, Zhirinovsky stressed that it is not favorable for this country as well as joining the EU, NATO or WTO. He thinks Russia should change its political priorities and give up its pro-Western political course. Instead, Russia should join the Islamic Conference organization and the organization of economic cooperation between Muslim countries. This would improve Russia's image in the world and will be favorable economically." http://www.moscowtimes.ru/doc/HotNews.html#6162 |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: DougR Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM So, I, Hurricane? Zhirinovsky is not the only one who opposes the west's handling of this situation. Isn't the support of Putin more important than the opposition of Zhirinovsky. To me, his thinking is pretty "far out," I think. DougR |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM Well, essentially he's a Nazi. Even makes Putin look relatively wholesome. Which is a pretty tall order. These are very troubled times indeed. |
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Subject: RE: War Strategy&Tactics: Part Three From: heric Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:05 PM So nothing. Just giving him air time. Turkey has said they will be glad to lead a multinational peacekeeping force comprised primarily of troops from Muslim dominated nations. I think that was in the Guardian. |
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