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Thinking like a TERRORIST
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Subject: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 01 - 11:57 PM Thinking like a terrorist:
It has been said we must think like a terrorist to defeat them. Well, at least react to them unless intelligence and prevention is successful. Reagan tried paying ransom demands; trading weapons for hostages and the release of prisoners held by Israel (quid pro quo). The CIA in the 70's even tried truck bombing mosques but 100 fatalities later they missed their intended target.
***Today (10-4-01) it was reported that an ebola (hemorrhagic fever) outbreak has claimed 72 victims along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. This is a most dangerous and highly contagious lethal virus. This disease has a track record in Africa and Middle East. Speculations are sure to follow.***
Two years ago one overturned truck full of dynamite closed the North-South corridor for the entire east coast in Washington DC. Although it did not explode it demonstrated how the nation's highway system could be interrupted for 24 hours.
If you are fortunate enough to have several vaccines* and counter agents on hand as well as bio suits and a knowledge how to decontaminate food and water you will be fortunate to survive long enough to see more death than many WWII veterans. (*sorry no ebola vaccines are available)
What are effective targets? Six state capitols and 4 major highway arteries should insure coast to coast infection. However communication remains intact compared to the use of 7 nuclear devices that would silence the internet and phone service rendering our nation's urban populations silent and scavengers unto death. The survivors may find the tables turned when they try to sneak into Mexico or cross freely into Canada.
The strength of our weapons is, as always, awesome. A Global response/retaliation would make a one in ten chance of survival for seven years optimistic.
Yes it is a new war, and nearly true to advertising twice before:
To think like a terrorist would mean we will in fact engage in a holy war. Peace has never been the answer for long. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: ddw Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM Such a cheerful fellow you are, Donuel. Unfortunately, you're right. As long as we have suicidal nuts who are convinced they're taking orders from God, no horror is beyond belief. I cringe to think what the world is in for if the measured response doesn't work. david — who hasn't had much enthusiasm for music —— acoustic or otherwise — lately |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:32 AM Chilling stuff, Donuel. Here's my version of "Thinking like a terrorist"... We have been ruthlessly attacked/oppressed/exploited/etc. We cannot let those cowards get away with it. We must strike back by any means possible. We have to hit them where it hurts and keep hitting them until they are either eliminated or persuaded to accept the terms we offer. You're either with us or you're against us. Anyone who is against us can expect to suffer the consequences. We will not give up until we have achieved final victory, no matter how long it takes. If some innocent people die, that is unfortunate, but this is war. We are defending freedom, and freedom has its price. Any of that sound familiar? - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:37 AM Precisely how is ebola transmitted, and how long can the virus remain alive on the outside of a car? If it has an airborn transmission, how likely is it that a virus will get from a mason jar in the road into the nasal passages of a person traveling at a fairly high rate of speed in an automobile? Can any of the fine physicians here in the Mudcat tell us anything about this? |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM Carol, here is one of wife Karen's favorite places to visit. Before we left Atlanta, Karen, a lab tech, was being interviewed by the CDC for a position. She loves virology stuff. I get scared thinking about some of the oddball stuff that comes through a big hospital lab, some of it not known about by the patient or doctor til it gets to the lab and is processed. Since she does the processing.........I'd have been a basket case if we had stayed and she worked in the CDC labs. Anyway.......There are some things like anthrax that are a lot easier to spread than Ebola. A cruise on the rivers around NYC with an open coffee can of anthrax virus would wipe the place out. Center for Disease Control.........Enjoy! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:06 AM Dunno about Ebola, but the plague that is currently hitting the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is the Crimea-Congo Haemoragic(sp) Fever. It is carried by animals like sheep and goats and seems to be spread by ticks and/or fleas. I read an article about it a few days ago but I don't remember exactly where. If I can retrieve it I will post it in its entirety. It's scary stuff. Little Hawk, just how would you suggest we proceed. Remember what bin Laden has said his aims are and what it will take to apease him. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Peg Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:08 AM Spaw; good news is (if it can be called good) is that anthrax would be very difficult to inflict upon the population this way due to difficulties in producing it and disseminating it... but smallpox...tetanus...bubonic plague...tuberculosis...influenza (the kind that kills kids and elders and people with suppressed immunity) are still up for grabs... Nightline did a chilling "scenario" about bio-terrorism a couple years ago...I am hoping they rerun this episode soon. (They used anthrax as the example)
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:10 AM Here's link direct to the section on anthrax....CDC Anthrax pages Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:12 AM Hey Peg!!! I just flipped to Nightline and they're running it tomorrow night! Just caught the end of the broadcast, but I think that's what Ol' Ted said. Well, let's all get a good night's sleep now........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Peg Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM I was watching it, too Spaw; it actually sounded like they were going to run a "Town Meeting" thing live from the red Cross headquarters...but then again Friday was the traditional night of that bio-terrorism special (it was in a couple installments) so maybe that is what was meant...I hope so! thanks peg
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:23 AM Interesting stuff, Spaw. Thanks for the link. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:31 AM Heres the scoop on ebola and a bunch more. I'm still looking for the article. The Ebola Virus and other hemorrhagic fevers Ebola and other Hemorrhagic Fevers provoke bleeding and fever but rarely provoke major epidemics. They are, however, responsible for local outbreaks which may be fatal. All of the following belong to the family of Hemorrhagic Fevers: Yellow Fever Dengue Fever, Ebola, Lassa, Marburg, Rift Valley, Hanta and Congo Crimea Fever. What are they and where do they come from? Hemorrhagic Fevers are all caused by one of more than 12 viruses. Their usual hosts are insects (mosquitoes or ticks) and in some cases rodents. It seems that for some of these Hemorrhagic Fevers, small or large mammals can be host to the infectious virus. These diseases overall, are rather rare in man, with the exception of Yellow Fever and Dengue Fever. What are their symptoms? Hemorrhagic Fevers have many things in common. Their incubation period varies between 2 and 20 days. Flu-type symptoms are typical, such as fever, headaches, muscle and joint pains, often accompanied by a sore throat. In some cases vomiting and diarrhea may appear. In certain severe Hemorrhagic Fevers such as Ebola, the liver and kidneys are severely impaired and the blood no longer coagulates provoking severe internal and external bleeding and usually leading to death. There is no specific treatment for any of the known Hemorrhagic Fevers. Only an intensive symptomatic treatment accompanied by rehydration and transfusions can in some cases save the patient. What are the preventive measures? With the exception of Yellow Fever, there is no vaccination for any of the other Hemorrhagic Fevers. Prevention of Yellow Fever and Dengue Fever are also based on insect bite prevention: bed net, clothing, repellents, etc. For those Hemorrhagic Fevers, such as Ebola, during local epidemics, preventive measures are based on isolation of the victims. Since only direct contact with body secretions of contaminated people can transmit the disease, it is necessary to: avoid unnecessary travel/ business to regions where epidemics are in progress. avoid contact with monkeys and animals in general while traveling. avoid sexual encounters. avoid going to medical centers or hospitals where the risk is high. avoid all invasive medical procedures performed locally. Avoid ALL non-sterile needles and syringes as well as ALL non-urgent surgery, dental care, etc. What are the different hemorrhagic fevers? EBOLA FEVER Known since 1976, Ebola Fever has reappeared more than 10 times in the last 20 years and continues to reappear every so often in Gabon, Zaire and other African countries. The first cases were contracted when men ate contaminated monkey meat. The disease is named after the Ebola river, in Zaire, near where it was first discovered. Due to a filovirus, Ebola Fever is usually fatal (50 to 90% of all cases). Affecting monkeys, apes (maybe other animals) and rarely man, there seem to be at least 4 different strains of the virus. The incubation period can be anywhere from 2 to 21 days. It is transmitted by CLOSE contact with an infected person. Hospital workers and family members are most at risk. Blood and other body fluids contain the virus (urine, sweat, vomit, semen, vaginal secretions, saliva, etc.). There does not seem to be an airborne transmission of the disease. Symptoms are identical to other Hemorrhagic Fevers with flu-like symptoms and death appearing in most cases after severe internal and external bleeding, vomiting and bloody diarrhea. Prevention is simple. Avoid people who have the disease !!! Avoid therefore their body fluids-blood, feces, urine, vomit, sweat, etc. As with most other Hemorrhagic Fevers there is no specific treatment and no vaccination. No one knows why this disease, like many other Hemorrhagic Fevers, appears every so often in localized epidemics and then disappears for months or years at a time. YELLOW FEVER AND DENGUE FEVER Both are transmitted to man by a mosquito. There is an effective preventive vaccination only against Yellow Fever, however researchers are not far from finding a protective vaccine against Dengue Fever. Each year, thousands of people contract both diseases in the world's tropical regions and many die. MARBURG FEVER Also called "green monkey disease", Marburg Fever is clinically quite close to Ebola Fever, and has appeared every so often in man in Zimbabwe, Uganda and Kenya since 1967. LASSA FEVER First discovered in the late 1960's, Lassa Fever provokes as many as 20,000 deaths each year in central, south-east and western Africa. Initially carried by rodents, man is contaminated when he comes into contact with a contaminated rodent's excrement. Lassa Fever kills 15 to 20% of those who have been contaminated. HANTAAN VIRUS This rare viral disease is also transmitted by rodents. There have been a few cases reported recently in Argentina. A little while back, this disease was reported among the Navajo population of Arizona, USA. RIFT VALLEY FEVER Found in sub-Saharan Africa and transmitted by a mosquito, this disease is common during the rainy season. CRIMEA CONGO FEVER Another rare, viral disease, transmitted by a tick, Crimea Congo Fever has recently been reported in South Africa, but is often observed in parts of Africa as well as the Middle East, CIS and China. In Conclusion Hemorrhagic Fevers have a great deal in common. Caused by a virus, provoking various degrees of fever and bleeding, they can in certain severe forms such as Ebola Fever, provoke a large percentage of fatal cases. Do not forget that these diseases are relatively rare on a worldwide scale but can be responsible for severe local and intermittent epidemics, particularly in Africa. This has been the case in 1995 (Zaire) and 1996 (Gabon). No panic ! A few simple rules will prevent these diseases and keep you healthy. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:36 AM Found it!
Ebola-Like Disease Hits Pakistan-Afghan Border By John Fullerton QUETTA, Pakistan (Reuters) - A potentially fatal disease that can cause its victims to bleed to death has hit Pakistan's frontier with Afghanistan (news - web sites), and doctors said on Thursday they feared an epidemic among refugees and the poor. ``We've had 60 cases since June,'' said Dr. Taj Mohammed, medical officer at Quetta's Fatima Jinnah Chest Hospital. ``Eight people have died so far. It's unheard of--very unusual. I haven't seen anything like this, and there's a real risk of an epidemic among Afghan refugees.'' The symptoms of the disease are compatible with Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever. However, the World Health Organisation (WHO) said it had yet to confirm any cases of the fever. ``A WHO mission went to Quetta, but WHO wishes to appeal to the public not to draw any immediate conclusions until the investigation is concluded,'' United Nations (news - web sites) spokesman Eric Falt told reporters in Islamabad. Between May and August, 40 suspected cases and 11 deaths were reported. ``It is not Ebola (news - web sites), it is an Ebola-like virus,'' he said. ``There have been a number of cases reported by the national authorities and substantiated by WHO in Quetta...and Karachi,'' Falt said. ``It is not new by any stretch of the imagination.'' The virus might be endemic to parts of Afghanistan, but the number of patients in Quetta--they are all male, all poor and come from all over Pakistan's Baluchistan province--is unprecedented, doctors said. About 12 of the patients were Afghan. All the patients were held in wards isolated from the rest of the 250-bed hospital by a barbed wire fence. The disease is carried by livestock ticks, and humans are vulnerable when they live in close proximity with herds of sheep or goats. The virus is spread through urine, stools, blood or spit. ``The symptoms are nose-bleeds, bleeding from the rectum, even through the skin,'' Mohammed said. Medical technologist Dr. Javed Akbar said the fact that the victims were poor and uneducated meant they had little or no appreciation of hygiene. ``They don't grasp the importance of keeping clean, of distancing themselves from their livestock,'' he said. ANOTHER MILLION AFGHAN REFUGEES With UN agencies planning for the possible arrival of another million Afghan refugees in Pakistan because of drought and the current crisis, the doctors said they feared the virus could spread rapidly among the newcomers. ``The possibility of an epidemic has to be taken very seriously,'' Mohammed said. However, Halt said the only danger of a serious outbreak was if animals were also on the move with Afghan refugees. ``In the absence of animals there is no risk,'' he said. The Baluchistan authorities had begun spraying animals this year to try to control the ticks. The first known case was among Soviet troops in the Crimea in 1944 and then among villagers living near Kisangani in the Congo in 1956. In the isolation ward, one elderly man lay quietly on his side, dried blood caking his shirt. Blood serum was drip-fed into one arm. ``The bleeding has stopped. They're all improved, but not yet cured,'' said 27-year-old nurse Parween. Only one attendant was permitted at any one time in the wards where the Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic patients were treated, to try to reduce the risk to staff. Some years ago, two medical workers died in Pakistan after operating on a patient infected by the virus. Parween wore overshoes, surgical gloves, a gown and a facemask. Wasn't she afraid? ``No, not at all. It's my duty,'' she said. scary stuff. troll
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:01 AM Okay Troll me lad.....I'll do it your way. You can get the following as well as a lot more details on the stuff you posted by linking around the CDC site which connects to the NCID and the WHO. But........if you don't want to do it, okay, I'll post it. CCHF is a Bunyavirus and genus Nairovirus......From the WHO, the following: Overview Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever (CCHF) is a viral haemorrhagic fever of the Nairovirus group. Although primarily a zoonosis, sporadic cases and outbreaks of CCHF affecting humans do occur. 1998 has already witnessed 2 outbreaks, one in Pakistan affecting four people, with two deaths, and another in Afghanistan affecting 19 people with 12 deaths. The disease was first described in the Crimea in 1944 and given the name Crimean haemorrhagic fever. In 1969 it was recognised that the pathogen causing Crimean haemorrhagic fever was the same as that responsible for an illness identified in 1956 in the Congo, and linkage of the 2 place-names resulted in the current name for the disease and the virus. CCHF is a severe disease in humans, with a high mortality. Fortunately, human illness occurs infrequently, although animal infection may be more common. The geographical distribution of the virus, like that of its tick vector, is widespread. Evidence of CCHF virus has been found in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Healthcare workers in endemic areas should be aware of the illness and the correct infection control procedures to protect themselves and their patients from the risk of nosocomial (hospital-acquired) infection.
The Virus, the Reservoirs, and the Vectors The virus which causes CCHF is a Nairovirus, a group of related viruses forming one of the five genera in the Bunyaviridae family of viruses. All of the 32 members of the Nairovirus genus are transmitted by argasid or ixodid ticks, but only three have been implicated as causes of human disease: the Dugbe and Nairobi sheep viruses, and CCHF, which is the most important human pathogen amongst them. The CCHF virus may infect a wide range of domestic and wild animals. Many birds are resistant to infection, but ostriches are susceptible and may show a high prevalence of infection in endemic areas. Animals become infected with CCHF from the bite of infected ticks. A number of tick genera are capable of becoming infected with CCHF virus, but the most efficient and common vectors for CCHF appear to be members of the Hyalomma genus. Trans-ovarial (transmission of the virus from infected female ticks to offspring via eggs) and venereal transmission have been demonstrated amongst some vector species, indicating one mechanism which may contribute to maintaining the circulation of the virus in nature. However, the most important source for acquisition of the virus by ticks is believed to be infected small vertebrates on which immature Hyalomma ticks feed. Once infected, the tick remains infected through its developmental stages, and the mature tick may transmit the infection to large vertebrates, such as livestock. Domestic ruminant animals, such as cattle, sheep and goats, are viraemic (virus circulating in the bloodstream) for around one week after becoming infected. Humans who become infected with CCHF acquire the virus from direct contact with blood or other infected tissues from livestock during this time, or they may become infected from a tick bite. The majority of cases have occurred in those involved with the livestock industry, such as agricultural workers, slaughterhouse workers and veterinarians.
Clinical Features The length of the incubation period for illness appears to depend on the mode of acquisition of the virus. Following infection via tick bite, the incubation period is usually one to three days, with a maximum of nine days. The incubation period following contact with infected blood or tissues is usually five to six days, with a documented maximum of 13 days. Onset of symptoms is sudden, with fever, myalgia (aching muscles), dizziness, neck pain and stiffness, backache, headache, sore eyes and photophobia (sensitivity to light). There may be nausea, vomiting and sore throat early on, which may be accompanied by diarrhoea and generalised abdominal pain. Over the next few days, the patient may experience sharp mood swings, and may become confused and aggressive. After two to four days, the agitation may be replaced by sleepiness, depression and lassitude, and the abdominal pain may localize to the right upper quadrant, with detectable hepatomegaly (liver enlargement). Other clinical signs which emerge include tachycardia (fast heart rate), lymphadenopathy (enlarged lymph nodes), and a petechial rash (a rash caused by bleeding into the skin), both on internal mucosal surfaces, such as in the mouth and throat, and on the skin. The petechiae may give way to ecchymoses (like a petechial rash, but covering larger areas) and other haemorrhagic phenomena such as melaena (bleeding from the upper bowel, passed as altered blood in the faeces), haematuria (blood in the urine), epistaxis (nosebleeds) and bleeding from the gums. There is usually evidence of hepatitis. The severely ill may develop hepatorenal (i.e., liver and kidney) and pulmonary failure after the fifth day of illness. The mortality rate from CCHF is approximately 30%, with death occurring in the second week of illness. In those patients who recover, improvement generally begins on the ninth or tenth day after onset of illness.
Diagnosis and Treatment Diagnosis of suspected CCHF is performed in specially-equipped, high biosafety level laboratories. IgG and IgM antibodies may be detected in serum by enzyme-linked immunoassay (the "ELISA" or "EIA" methods) from about day six of illness. IgM remains detectable for up to four months, and IgG levels decline but remain detectable for up to five years. Patients with fatal disease do not usually develop a measurable antibody response and in these individuals, as well as in patients in the first few days of illness, diagnosis is achieved by virus detection in blood or tissue samples. This may be accomplished by several methods. The virus may be isolated from blood or tissue specimens in the first five days of illness, and grown in cell culture. Viral antigens may sometimes be shown in tissue samples using immunofluorescence or EIA. More recently, the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), a molecular method for detecting the viral genome, has been successfully applied in diagnosis. General supportive therapy is the mainstay of patient management in CCHF. Intensive monitoring to guide volume and blood component replacement is required. The antiviral drug ribavirin has been used in treatment of established CCHF infection with apparent benefit. Both oral and intravenous formulations seem to be effective. The value of immune plasma from recovered patients for therapeutic purposes has not been demonstrated, although it has been employed on several occasions.
Prevention and Control Although an inactivated, mouse brain-derived vaccine against CCHF has been developed and used on a small scale in Eastern Europe, there is no safe and effective vaccine widely available for human use. The tick vectors are numerous and widespread and tick control with acaricides (chemicals intended to kill ticks) is only a realistic option for well-managed livestock production facilities. Persons living in endemic areas should use personal protective measures that include avoidance of areas where tick vectors are abundant and when they are active (Spring to Fall); regular examination of clothing and skin for ticks, and their removal; and use of repellents. Persons who work with livestock or other animals in the endemic areas can take practical measures to protect themselves. These include the use of repellents on the skin (e.g. DEET) and clothing (e.g. permethrin) and wearing gloves or other protective clothing to prevent skin contact with infected tissues or blood. When patients with CCHF are admitted to the hospital, there is a risk of nosocomial spread of infection. In the past, serious outbreaks have occurred in this way and it is imperative that adequate infection control measures be observed to prevent this disastrous outcome. Patients with suspected or confirmed CCHF should be isolated and cared for using barrier nursing techniques. Specimens of blood or tissues taken for diagnostic purposes should be collected and handled using universal precautions. Sharps (needles and other penetrating surgical instruments) and body wastes should be safely disposed of using appropriate decontamination procedures. Healthcare workers are at risk of acquiring infection from sharps injuries during surgical procedures and, in the past, infection has been transmitted to surgeons operating on patients to determine the cause of the abdominal symptoms in the early stages of (at that moment undiagnosed) infection. Healthcare workers who have had contact with tissues or blood from patients with suspected or confirmed CCHF should be followed up with daily temperature and symptom monitoring for at least 14 days after the putative exposure. Spaw
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:20 AM Hey Guys - Terrorism is by definition the use of terror. Terror comes in many forms but by far the worse is that which arises in the mind - Terror of the unknown. Conversations like this are interesting and informative but lets hope that anyone prone to panic or severe stress disorders does not let their imagination run away with them on reading them! This is what the terrorists want. This is what terror is all about. Just remember the old adage. Don't worry about the things you can't do anything about - Worrying won't change them. Dont worry about the things you can do something about - do something about them instead. Keep smiling Cheers Dave the Gnome PS: Nice to see you back again Donuel - Your short break from the Mudcat must have done you good;-) |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:39 AM Mostly, I agree with you Dave the Gnome. But in this case, I think it's comforting to know something about these things. For instance, Donuel's opening post left the impression that it would be very easy for a terrorist to spread ebola virus throughout large segments of our population. After checking out a few facts about ebola virus, we now know that this would not be possible. So that's one less thing we need to be concerned about. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Steve Parkes Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:08 AM Anyone remember a short story by H G Wells (The Phial??) about an anarchist (the Victorian equivalent of today's terrorists) who steals what he believes to be a phial (vial, if you prefer) containing a deadkly bacterium and goes out to infect the city? And two or three guys, also anarchists, went to prison about a hundred years ago for making bombs in my home town, Walsall. Seems like there have always been extremists whose ends justify any means. Only the possible scale has got worse ... Steve |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:09 AM Dave the gnome, thank you. My dad died this week and still have much to do regarding the estate. Carol, Up until 4 years ago I would have been able to buy anthrax spores from the American Type Culture Depository which is only 3 miles away from us. Certainly growing anthrax is easier than mass producing Marsburg type virus but none of the above links addressed the weaponization of ebola which, if air born, would be an insidious threat. Dissemination of the viral agent would be a suicide mission. There is a poison derived from the simple castor bean plant that is so destructive its mention has been exsponged from the Congressional record. Several gallons would serve to render an average reservoir fatal to anyone who quenched their thirst. Worldwide moderatly paid research scientists have been hard at work to refine the concept and reality of bio war. It makes you wonder what they were thinking. Some of the technology we gave to Iraq in the seventies. Actual stocks were available since the 80's from the former USSR. Don't worry, be happy. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:25 AM According to the data available at present, there does not appear to be an air-borne strain of ebola. It is usually transmitted through body fluids or contaminated meat. Like HIV, it could be devastating IF an air-borne strain could be developed but it would be unusual for a fluid-borne infection to also be capable of surviving in an air-borne form. While I am aware that the castor bean is poisonous, I have never heard of a poison so virulent that a few gallons could contaminate millions of gallons of water in a reservoir. Mort data please. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:28 AM The case that focused in on the anthrax issue and caused some major security shake-ups came from right here where I live. A guy in Lancaster, Ohio (6 miles) with fake credentials purchased a nice supply on the pretext of being an experimental lab. The family was widely known to be a bit "off" to say the very least. There are also quite a few "agricultural" labs and the like which do research on anti-toxins with the government also funding research into "super-virus" technology at the same time.....a little side benefit you might say. I'm not a conspiracy nut and indeed, that kind of thing always strikes me as paranoid nutcase thinking, but the fact is, it does go on here, covertly, everyday. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Amos Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:31 AM Wonderful thread, there, Donuel. The Darkest and the Brightest face off for Folksingers Everywere. Oy, such tsuris. A |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:32 AM Risan |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:24 AM If the terrorists can't manage to scare the hell out of people, their unwitting accomplices will. Terrorists rely on the fear and panic, and not any actual attacks to do the most damage. Diseases which are transmitted primarily by contact with blood and other body fluids are transmitted that way because they can't survive long outside the body. Diseases transmitted by air have to get into the air somehow. Thinking someone could just plop a mason jar down by the side of the road, and the infectious agent would just sort of float up into the air is ridiculous. Dispersal methods are a huge limiting factor in biological warfare. They need an agent that will survive the dispersal, and will remain alive and present long enough to infect people, and not give itself away by killing animals and birds before it infects people. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:56 AM BTW, dumping agents into reserviors works well mainly in the movies. It might work if the water went straight from the reservoir to the city, but it doesn't. First it goes through treatment. The chlorine that it is subjected to will kill almost any bug that could survive the water in the first place. Thats why it hasn't been done by terrorists already. It won't work. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM Look Jeri and troll.....Never was an object of mine to scare anyone, but virology is really entertaining. The "beauty" of many viruses is their ability to mutate rapidly. They either mutate or die and what is almost surreal is that they act somewhat human in the need to survive, especially RNA viruses. Equally, and again I'm not a "secret spy" nut, the by-product of anti-viral research is newer and sometimes stronger strains of the virus. This isn't to say that anybody can acquire them or that they would even be effective for use as a "weapon." They do exist though. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Ozzie Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM I heard that the Ebola outbreak is part of a conspiracy by the CIA to start a world war. This is because the director of the CIA is actually a Mudcat member who wants to set in motion the events described by Donuel. His end result is a world in which acoustic music is the dominant form of entertainment and he will thus be in a position to achieve his diabolical goal of becoming a professional dulcimer player. In this sinsister New World Order, accoustic dulcimer players will be the new celebrites and so the CIA directotr will get lots of chicks. I also heard that the United Hog Farmers of America are cooperating with the FBI in a counter terrorism mission called Operation Pork 'em All (OPA). This will consist of flying missions that drop pork chops, head cheese, and kielbasa on Bin Laden's camps until they surrender. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:03 AM Can't see it. NO musician is that well organized. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:15 AM By God, what a cheerful thread. Ugh. Troll - I wish I had a neat and simple solution as to how we should proceed. I don't. I am simply observing the usual process of reaction and counter-reaction that fuels war and hatred and commenting on it. I do have theoretical world-wide solutions which would solve all the existing problems...but believe me, there is NO CHANCE that the forces running this society would even consider them at this point! Not a hope in hell. I think there would have to be a level of destruction never seen before on this planet before those solutions would be given serious consideration, and maybe not even then. Like I said before, they do not believe in equality, they believe in victory. And they do not believe in unity, they believe in division. And most of their citizenry believes likewise...so people tend to get the governments they deserve, often as not. People in general are still not ready for a genuinely enlightened approach to society on this planet. But...we have been inching in that direction by small degrees, century after century...so in the long run I remain hopeful. The long run is a very long run indeed, I'm afraid, and our ability to produce weapons of mass destruction has unfortunately outstripped our ability to achieve human unity most of the time. If I was Bush, I would tone down the grandiose rhetoric some, and proceed very cautiously and judiciously before pusuing a military conflict with anyone. Once a war starts, it takes on a momentum of its own which tends to eclipse the original reasons which led to the decision...and it usually sows the seeds of further conflict. The terrorists were willing to wait 5 years or more to put their plans into action. Americans should also be willing to employ patience and careful judgement before rushing into some unfortunate act of war. In regards to Bush, he's shown better judgement so far than I frankly would have expected him to. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:49 AM Spaw, I wasn't aiming that at you. It's the misinformation that causes the panic, such as implying that someone with a mason jar full of ebola virus could infect loads of people and result in the destruction of civilisation as we know it. It's fiction, and not even particularly good fiction. Ebola isn't even considered in the running as a bio agent, but it's scary, and it sure gets people's attention, which is all this is probably about anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:03 PM At some point solutions become irrelevant and the only option is search and rescue. Some things in motion are hard to stop. Trains need hundreds of yards to stop, super tankers need several miles and wars need an incredible death toll. To have discussed these matters 10 years ago would have been countered with "gentlemen, we must not have a germ warfare gap". To discuss it today is grim and is considered by some playing into the hands of the fear factor. We got here in part by ignoring the scope of military plans for the world. To stop it now is impossible. We are all potential collateral damage. We may be like the Statue of Liberty with a super tanker at full speed on a collision course merely a mile away.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM It's not the discussion that I object to, in case you're wondering. It's the sensationalism of the article you posted. Seemed more aimed at scaring the bejeesus out of folks than anything else. It doesn't seem like anything else you've said is going in any other direction. What were you hoping for? The folks who have to discuss this are the ones at the top - folks at top military and national security levels and folks who make sure vaccines and antibiotics are available, and doctors are trained to recognise outbreaks and know how to treat patients. Personally, I'm not going to shut myself in a hermetically sealed house, drink only bottled water, stay away from people and talk about how scared we should all be. Somebody will do that, I'm sure - it just won't be me. The toxic agent in castor beans is ricin. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: heric Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM http://www.fieler.com/terror/ |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM CarolC, in answer to your question... On Anthrax: Quoted in part from www.nov55.com/athr.html "Here's the truth of the matter. Anthrax will never be used successfully as a terrorist weapon, and probably never as a military weapon. It has to be converted to spores suspended in the air, which is technically very difficult; and the lethality is nowhere near the terror that it is made out to be. It is not 100% lethal as often claimed. Wool sorters inhale anthrax spores in small quantities continually (150-700 per hour), and only if they get a large dose does an infection get started." "Anthrax is a livestock pathogen. There are anthrax spores in the ground in rural areas, because they survive for about twenty years. They normally have no effect upon humans, because a few anthrax spores cannot create an infection, and they do not come up from the ground in large quantities. Anthrax is what's called a "gram positive" bacterium. This means it has the type of cell walls which are harmless, unlike the cell walls of "gram negative" bacteria, which attack tissue. Therefore, anthrax can only attack tissue by producing a special toxin which it excretes. One cell or spore does not produce enough toxin to start an infection. Studies have apparently determined that, typically, ten thousand anthrax spores must be inhaled to start an infection. That number might be someone's guess, but it is in line with the biology of the disease. It is the number which the military uses, and only the military has significantly researched such questions. It uses gas chambers for animal tests. Anthrax normally attacks the lungs, because it must lodge in vulnerable tissue. It can invade through other routes such as cuts or undercooked meat, but it only does so under third world conditions, and those routes are not relevant to biowarfare." On Ebola: Quoted from www.american.edu/ted/ebola.htm "Ebola is one of the most gruesome and deadly viruses in its effects on its victims. It often destroys its victim in less than ten days and it is spread through bodily fluids, most easily through blood to those who have close personal contact with the person who is acutely ill. For instance, family members and health care workers have caught it, the latter through reuse of hypodermic needles when treating infected patients. This is most common in developing countries such as Zaire and Sudan where healthcare is underfinanced. Lack of sanitary conditions, including clean needles, syringes, water, and ways to sanitize an area after it comes into contact with the fluids of a victim are prime ways in which to spread the disease. We do not know what risks are associated with which body fluids because medical workers who have caught the disease were exposed to various body fluids. It is unlikely that there is airborne transmission in humans, although in monkeys this is more likely. There may be risk of spread of the disease through sexual transmission, although this is not likely through those who are infected but show no signs of infection. For persons who have been previously infected, the disease may spread through genital discharges for a brief period after recovery. The risk of transmission of the disease is more likely, of course, in the later stages of the disease, when body fluids are flowing more freely (for example, through vomiting, diarrhea, and hemorrhaging). There is a great need for an increase in clean water, new syringes and better sanitation, especially in hospitals. In fact, hospitals are in such great need for these that two of the three outbreaks of Ebola in Zaire were in hospitals; for instance, in the university hospital in Kinshasa, several patients must share a single bed, and in a larger hospital, the Mama Yemo Hospital, corpses have piled up because of the lack of funds to dispose of them.(1) In the 1995 Zaire Ebola outbreak, there were reports of transmission between people a few days after the onset of the fever. (Other symptoms in the primary patients and the level of exposure to bodily fluids which caused the secondary cases were unknown.)(2) It was asserted that "sharing a small, primitive, native hut with a patient was not a risk factor." But over one third of the secondary victims were either morgue workers or health care workers, which had "multiple contacts with multiple fluids."(3)"
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM Jeri , you are right to live as always have. No one has implied you do differently. In fact, there is no reasonable defense . The top brass in their infinite wisdom destroyed millions of doses of smallpox vaccine some years ago. At full production it will take 4 years to have enough for US citizens. Some topics are sensational no matter how politically correct you try to phrase them. As for mass dispersion of viral agents that are considered only transmitted by body fluid this too has simple solutions. Even if only 6 people in various truck stops are infected the incubation over the next 10 days will expose more people in a logrithmic progression. Ahcheww. excuse me *G* |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:21 PM Thanks GUEST. That information seems to answer a lot of questions. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM And I never drink anything except bottle water, anyway. My tap water comes from the Potomac River which is quite deadly enough without the help of terrorists. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:32 PM Sorry guys. I forgot to post my name to that last post. It is indeed me, but my allergies are making me a tad forgetful right now. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM Sheesh, I am worse than I thought. The "GUEST" post that begins with "CarolC, in answer to your question...", that would be mine. Would someone please drill a hole in my head to let out some of the pressure? Thanks! :D |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Dont discus it!!!!!!!!! Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:49 PM i cant beleive that some of you are actualy talking about some of them diseasis like that. What if some of the terrorists have internet axcess and get some ideas from it. Im serieous because a lot of them people are ignoreant and could learn lots from reading it. Then all of a suden the pakis will be droping ebolis on us just like you speckulated. We need to be lots more careful in a terrorists crysis like this. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM GUEST, I'd be more reassured if your post didn't contain at least one completely nonsensical statement: "Anthrax is what's called a 'gram positive' bacterium. This means it has the type of cell walls which are harmless, unlike the cell walls of 'gram negative' bacteria, which attack tissue." Tell that to Jim Henson, who died of pneumonia caused by Group AStreptococcus pyogenes, a gram-positive bacterium. This bug is also popularly known as the "flesh-eating bacteria" when it causes necrotizing fasciitis, but best known as the cause of "strep throat". If gram positive bacteria are harmless, somebody should tell my patients (like the little boy in the hospital right now with a serious staph infection of the tissues around his eye) that they're imagining their infections. And let the drug companies know that the antibiotics they've been making to treat infections caused by gram-positive bacteria (like the one that's helping that little boy get better) are unnecessary. Unfortunately, that's the problem with using the Internet as a source of information. You just don't know what's true and what's made up. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:00 PM The information regarding risan (not a bug) will remain undisclosed. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:34 PM "Ain't it grand to be bloomin' well dead" |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/ricin/ricin.html There is no direct recipe to make super ricin here but it is well known and cheap (if you think like a terrorist). BTW there are certain words we all have been instructed not to say such as "Hi Jack" at the airport. A new word is to be added to that list. Never say you are a "tourist". |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: flattop Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:04 PM An article from the Guardian Newspapers containing clues on how 'terrorist' might be thinking, The Algebra of Infinite Justice, was circulated on the Cape Breton Politics listserver yesterday. Perhaps it has been mentioned on mudcat already. I like the line: Here's the rub: America is at war against people it doesn't know, because they don't appear much on TV. www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4266289,00.html |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: heric Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:24 PM THANK YOU Donuel for the correct spelling. I was going nuts finding only Star Trek references to "Risan beans." |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:32 PM Mark Cohen posted: "GUEST, I'd be more reassured if your post didn't contain at least one completely nonsensical statement..." You're right, Mark, I am no expert. However, this is why I sited the exact sources. My posting them here was not meant to imply that the information was absolutely accurate, but to allow people to see what was out there, and then do the research on their own. If you have information to contradict what the site claims, please, let us know. Additionally, the sites URL is posted. If you think they have it glaringly wrong, please, let them know as well. Perhaps they can explain their claims. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM And never ever say that the instrument you are carrying in its case is an axe or a bazouki. Call it "a kind of guitar".
At some time in the future worrying about poison gas and germs might make sense. But right now it's more commonplace things that are the dangers.
Vehicles filled with fuel. Agricultural fertiliser. Buildings and roads which have been built on stilts where a car can be parked next to them. Tunnels and bridges. Railway lines. Ferries. Pipelines. Tankers.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:54 PM Celtic Soul........There are several things in the website that you referred to that are not matching with several other sites which I would tend to trust more, such as the Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization......I think I linked both of them above and you can get to one from the other. My suspicion is that the website you listed has a distinct agenda of their own. I'm not dissing you here by any means, but websites like that bother me because they are either doomsday prophets or government cynics and will not accept any info outside of that which matches with their thinking. I think they'd say the CDC and WHO are "big government" dupes or even agents relying on funding blah, blah, blah.........They may be right!!! But the CDC and the WHO have, over the years, proven to be extremely reliable and knowledgeable folks. Frankly, with the possible exception of Doc Markakanamaku, we are all in over our heads here....at least I am. I know it may seem odd, but viruses are a dinner topic in my house at times so maybe I oughta' get Karen to chime in here.......no expert either, but it is a sort of "hobby" with her. BTW, have you noticed that hospitals never seem to bother much with Strep but have all kinds of things for Staph? I mean like I never noticed a "Strep Restroom"........(:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: CarolC Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:18 PM Speaking of strep, my son recently was diagnosed with a strep infection, but it wasn't in his throat. He was experiencing symptoms that made him think he might have meningitis. He never had a sore throat, but the back of his neck where the spinal cord is was painful. Anybody ever hear of anything like that before? |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM Looks to me like Cletus is playing "Guest" again! :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gareth Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:56 PM Musically of course -
Ring a ring of roses, Remember the origin of that ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Paul from Hull Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM Doug.......*ROLMAO!!!* |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:49 PM Famine , war and pestilence are the 3 reapers of life/civilization. If the pestilence issue is overblown for political purposes I do not know. I do know that we have many bio war labs in Virginia. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM Celtic Soul, I read that web page, and I haven't changed my mind. It may be true, as this person says, that biological warfare is out of reach of terrorists. But I don't think he proves his point at all, and the misinformation in the site doesn't help. Neither does the fact that he does not give his name, his credentials, his affiliation, or any reason why we should believe him other than that he is a "biologist". This page from Johs Hopkins University suggests that the use of anthrax as a biological weapon is not all that far-fetched. For example, when anthrax spores were accidentally released into the atmosphere in the USSR in 1979, 68 people died. And it may be true, as Mr. Anonymous Biologist states, that "weapons-grade" anthrax spores can only be manufactured in countries like the U.S. and Russia. But anyone who thinks that makes it impossible for terrorists to acquire them (by theft, for example) must be living on a different planet. Please understand, CS, I'm not directing my annoyance at you. I'm just pointing out that you should be very wary of relying on information from anonymous or unaccredited websites. I certainly believe that the government and the mass media don't always tell people the truth. But if I say the media are lying, even if they are, that doesn't mean that what I have to say is automatically true. (I see the same fallacy all the time in "alternative" health claims--and I'm more supportive of complementary and alternative medicine than the average physician.) My reading of the situation is that bioterrorism is possible, but that for most of the potential agents there are vaccines and treatments available. And for the others, there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do. I'm not losing sleep over it. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:10 PM Dear Doug...... I have said repeatedly that I have never posted in any way as a Guest.....PERIOD. Yeah, some yahoo is indeed doing the Clete thing perhaps, but it is not and has never been me.....EVER. Do you understand? Had I wanted to post like Cletus, I would have done so as Cletus. Never in my history on the 'Cat have I failed to ID myself for any reason. Are we clear? What bothers me is the idea that you would think that I would do any anonymous posting whatsoever......Never have,never will. Sorry if you think I would or that perhaps this should have been a PM, but I get tired of the anonymous crap anyway and any accusation from a long term member like yourself does trouble me.......My apologies if I have taken this wrong because I rarely get too worked up, but, uh...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM Oh, and Gareth, I believe "Ring Around a Rosy" dates to the time of the Black Death. The first line referred to the skin lesions, the second to the fact that people thought they could prevent infection by continually sniffing flowers. The third line I believe was originally "Ashes, ashes" and may refer to the burning of the corpses, but I'm not positive about that. And "All fall down" is obvious. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:29 PM The "Ring Around The Rosie" story is false. Click here. Sounds reasonable though... |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gervase Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM Ricin is indeed a potent poison, but I'm not sure about its oral efficacy. It was used spectacularly by the Bulgarian secret service to poison Georgi Markov, a dissident who worked for the BBC World Service. Markov was crossing one of the Thames bridges when he felt a sharp sting on the back of his leg. He turned and thought he had been accidentally poked by an umbrella, and then carried on. He thought little more of it, but when he got home after telling his wife of his day he later collapsed, sweating profusely, fell into a coma and died before morning. Doctors were baffled. The pathologist who carried out the PM spotted a small black mark on the back of Markov's leg, and almost dismissed it as a boil or spot, but a hung made him look forther. Just under the skin was an irridium sphere, just a few microns across, with a hole running through it. In the hold were microgrammes of ricin. The inquest concluded that Markov had been murdered, and the the sting in his leg on the bridge earlier that day had been the ricin pellet, shot from an airgun disguised as an umbrella. The pellet is still in the black museum at New Scotland Yard, along with many other strange and macabre curios. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:26 PM That of course was a case of a government acting as a terrorist organisation. Quite a lot of those in the Coalition against Terrorism, or whatever it gets called.
They are the people with the most developed facilities for using sophisticated stuff like that. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM My hat's off to you, Jeri! Nice to lay that one to rest, as it were. What I love about the Snopes site is that it covers such a large number of widely held myths, it's meticulously researched and documented, and it also has a sense of humor (and the authors give their names!) Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gareth Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM Mark - Precisely Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM It sure made a good story though. Mark. I heard one version where "ashes, ashes" was actually "achoo, achoo." I'm doing that a lot at the moment, and think I may be a test subject for secret rhinoplague experiments. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM I read that whole thing, and I still like the Black Plague explanation the best! I don't know if it's true or not, I just like it. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Celtic Soul Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:31 PM Mark Cohen said: "Please understand, CS, I'm not directing my annoyance at you. I'm just pointing out that you should be very wary of relying on information from anonymous or unaccredited websites". No worries here, friend. I am not so attached to *any* idea that I am not open to hear evidence against it. And, if you and Spaw have sites that would provide more accurate and better information to those questioning (in this case, CarolC), then I am in favour of it being posted. I did a very casual search in order to come up with the sites in question, and did not read the entire contents at either place. For those who would like to do their own searches, I highly recomend a "Dogpile" search. www.dogpile.com is a great search engine that searches other search engines. My search parameters were, "Anthrax weapon" and "Ebola Weapon". It yielded a lot more than the 2 sites, but those 2 were the first to say anything about how they act as a contagion as it specifically pertains to use as a weapon. Thank you for the clarification, Mark. :D |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:18 PM Thanks Jeri. *sigh* Another cherished illusion shattered. Another good engine is www.beaucoup. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Den Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:30 AM So Donuel, you've worked up a nice frenzy of death and destruction here...what's your solution? Den |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:23 AM At some point solutions become irrelevant and the only option is search and rescue. Some things in motion are hard to stop. Trains need hundreds of yards to stop, super tankers need several miles and wars need an incredible death toll. To have discussed these matters 10 years ago would have been countered with "gentlemen, we must not have a germ warfare gap". To discuss it today is grim and is considered by some playing into the hands of the fear factor. We got here in part by ignoring the scope of military plans for the world. To stop it now is impossible. We are all potential collateral damage. We may be like the Statue of Liberty with a super tanker at full speed on a collision course merely a mile away. A scenario prepared by ABC suggests 50,000 dead from one bio attack in one city. Late last night ABC had a town meeting moderated by Ted Koppel on bio terrorism. The leading experts all painted a dire picture. I suggest you go to ABC.com for a transcript. Not for solutions but for advice. The next attack I presume will be in CA. This is based on intercepted information in Russia. The phrase America will be stabbed in the back may prove telling. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:20 PM There are some antibacterial foods...don't know how they would help against certain bugs, but you never know...coconut, cranberries, garlic come to mind. Stock up. Especially cranberries since I am affiliated with them. There are essential oils used in aromatherapy that are mighty bacteria fighters...almost all are..and they are pretty cheap..orange, lemon. The most powerful are thyme and clove I think. Just put a few drops in water and spray. Tea tree oil is also anti=viral I believe. These are all things you would like anyway in housekeeping, air freshening etc. Some can be used in the bath (read up on which ones...some are too strong unless put in the right carrier oil in right proportions..) They are good for a lot of ailments besides. And orange cheers you up..especially mixed with nutmeg oil. mg |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Peg Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM thanks for that holistic information mgarvey. On Nightline during the Town Meeting, experts responded to a question about hoarding antibiotics and buying gasmasks by saying "don't." He thought hoarding antibiotics (the portin of their earlier scenario they showed portrayed looting of pharmacies for people desperate to get their hands on antibiotics which would do no good) would simply lead to abuse of antibiotics and reducing the body's natural resistance. Natural antibiotics which do NOT compromise the immune system include: (many of these mentioned already) garlic, cranberry juice (not with sugar), antimicrobial essential oils like tea trea and naiouli, thyme (a bit toxic), and colloidal silver. Gargling with good old Listerine is great, too. You can put a couple drops of tea tree or naiouli in water and gargle with it; excellent for preventing respiratory infections and guarding against infectious agents which attack via the throat. If used early enough tea tree can prevent strep infection from taking hold; but one mustn't mess with it, strep can be dangerous. Spraying antimicrobial essential oils diluted in water (ten drops per quart) around the home also helps clear the air of bacteria: including tea tree, lavender, lemon, grapefruit, (any of the citrus oils ae good), cinnamon or clove, thyme, lemongrass, etc. Spray directly on areas like bathrom surfaces, phones, doorknobs, etc. Will it save lives? Perhaps not but it beats taking antibiotics orally, which can deplete valuable bacteria in the body and thus leave us even more susceptible to illness.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM Regarding anthrax it would require 60 days of antibiotic (only if you had NO symptoms first)AND a vaccine [WHICH IS UNAVAILABLE TO CIVILIANS]. There is no defense. The facility for producing anthrax vaccine is "standing down" whatever that means. A Small pox epidemic (the weapon varient) would eventually find parents euthenising their children rather than watch the horrid slow stench of excrusiating death. It is by far the most tortuous of bio weapons. Thank you research scientists :-( |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:16 PM Watching Nightline I was struck with the same thing that always gets me........Big Federal dollars get sapped in the bureaucracy and the needed funds never reach the local levels in sufficient quantity (I hesitate to say "to get sapped by LOCAL bureaucrats"). It doesn't matter a ratsass if we are "prepared" on the Federal level if the local level is not. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM Oh, Spaw, I was just funnin' you! I know you wouldn't post as anyone except Spaw and/or Cletus. Sorry I got your dander up, friend. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM I am shocked that Doug is really Cletus and a number of other alias'. I am also shocked that there is gambling in this establishment. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:02 PM Some People Call Them Wahhabi Islamo-Fascists By Stephen Schwartz 10-6-1 [message deleted] Also posted in two other places - Click here to read Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:12 AM Well, like anything else you read these days this should be verified...but it certainly makes sense. I for one am more or less ignorant of Islamic factions, as I presume are most non-Muslim westerners. I know a little about Sufis, and have heard the terms Shiite and Sunni bandied about since the 80s, but this Wahhabi is a new one on me. I'm particularly troubled by the idea that Saudi Arabia may be the prime mover behind much of what's been going on, since we know how anxious our government is to avoid offending our prime source of oil. I'm curious also how Iraq and Imad Mughniyeh, who some say is the real mastermind behind the September 11 attacks, fit into this scheme. (Here's an interesting--and disturbing--article on Mughniyeh from Jane's Foreign Report. I don't know a lot about Jane's, but I understand they are respected in the military community.) I must say, Donuel, I haven't been particularly sanguine about a number of your previous posts, but I really appreciate your bringing this to our attention. Maybe it deserves a new thread of its own. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM And I also wanted to offer condolences on the loss of your father. I lost my dad 10 years ago and still miss him. Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:31 AM Don, my condolences on losing your father. I hope he went quickly and peacefully. Thanks for the post on the Wahabi. It verifies info I've gotten from other articles. BTW, Mark, Janes is quite well respected. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:12 AM Thank you for the condolences. As brilliant as he was a constitutional law professor, a result of the GI Bill, he lacked a degree of familial affection that made domestic life one of mixed feelings. There have been TV reports of Saudi charities funneling money with a tacit understanding it will go to terrorist organizations. With Saudi king Faouk fleeing to Switzerland and the flip flopping decisions to allow US forces to stage its air force, the dichotomy within Saudi Arabia is most evident. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM Donuel: I join the others in expressing sympathy for the loss of your father. Your post indicates that you might not have had a close relationship with him, and I'm sorry about that too. I lost my dad when he was 53 years old. That was over 45 years ago, and I still miss him. Your long post was interesting. Thanks for posting it. Please don't take this as criticism, but if you would break your longer posts into paragraphs it sure would be easier to read. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:43 AM Michael Moodie,Co Founder + President of the Biological Arms Control Institute. "Lets not worry about if biologic warfare exists, it is real." Small pox virus (super weapons grade) has been stock piled in the amount of 200 tons. If you think about how little a virus weighs, 200 tons is a fair amount. There was only ONE COUNTRY that voted against a UN bio war treaty and inspection program(146 to 1). Attacking with a contagious weapon is as simple as having one person infected and travel by plane train and automobile for the 10 days in which the disease is in incubation but is still contagious before the carrier dies. Spore powder could be added to newspaper, toilet paper, letters and other common household products at pre distribution sites so that a wide distribution is assured. Chemical agents are rapid attacking as opposed to biologic organisms or poisons so there is not the contagion aspect reaching far beyond the attack site. Chemical attack need not have crop dusters but can be introduced to tanker trucks by drivers that carry everything from milk to gasoline. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, We have been assured there is a 100% chance of a US based bio/chem attack or other "surprise". For those people who are thirsting for a fight to the death, they are likely to get their wish. The retalliation for WTC is now the excuse to escalate to these most insidious weapons. Although bioagent weapons were acceptable to only ONE country in the UN vote these "bugs" know no boundries.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM Donuel: you really think we could avoid such a terrorist attack by our doing nothing to retaliate? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:55 PM No, but the whole world could avoid terrorist attacks by treating people everywhere in an equal and just fashion, thus ending poverty, powerlessness, envy and despair in numerous places. I know, it's a completely unrealistic and unworkable idea, given our present disunity and the generally brutal level of human consciousness...just a step or two above that of apes who have learned how to use clubs. Almost as unrealisitic and unworkable an idea as solving social problems through terrorism and counter-wars against terrorism! Duh. Here's an alternative solution: The USA could build a huge impenetrable, missile-proof, transparent bubble around itself (out of high grade teflon, perhaps), extending out as far as territorial waters, and projecting down to the sea bed, thus sealing off the entire country from the rest of the planet. This would be very expensive, but could be done by diverting all those funds that are presently being spent overseas propping up people who aren't even Americans anyway! The Americans would be nice and safe inside the bubble, free to pursue happiness and live in a consumerist utopia so glorious that every family would soon have a 3 car garage and a TV and computer in every room. This would be a brave new world worth investing in! No more foreign aid, no American boys getting killed on foreign soil, no immigration, and no United Nations building on American soil. The rest of the world could then wallow in the misery it so richly deserves. Some consideration could be given to building similar bubbles for England, Canada, and a few other places that are almost American anyway...providing they were willing to pay for it. If not, too bad. We have the technology to do it. We have the money to do it. Let's do it! God save America. (extreme sarcasm, of course....) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:22 PM No kidding, L.H. Hmmm. I wonder, though, ...would it work? JUST KIDDING! |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jim Krause Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM OK, I'll bite. Mind you, I haven't read each and every post, so if I repeat some one else's idea, excuse the redundancy. If I were a terrorist, first thing I would not do is bother with biological, or chemical attacks. I'd find the best computer hacker money could buy, get this individual, or individuals to hack into the ConEd computer system, get the codes, and proceed to shut off the electricity to Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. Then I would make my demands known through my lieutenants in the US. If they were not met, then Chicago, LA, and while I'm at it the entire West Coast would go black. Next targets would be communcations satelites orbiting Earth. Hmmm, on second thought, switch the two plans of action. First hit the satelites, THEN go for the electrical grid. Neat, clean, effective, and I'd be sure to have my way. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST, I, hurricane Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM On PBS yesterday some bioterror experts were going on about it. I barely caught part of a reference to an incident where a well funded terrorist organization hired well qualified scientists to instigate an anthrax epidemic, but the product they released was anthrax vaccine, to no effect. All that said, though, the purpose is largely achieved by instilling fear that an infectious agent may be anywhere, so they don't really need to be very successful in their kill rates to be successful in the mission. Apparently nobody wants to buy the National Inquirer this week. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:16 PM Another cool thing one could do is spread rumours that Coke, Pepsi, and other soft drinks have been impregnated with a deadly, slow-acting biological weapon that causes impotency, sterility, and slow death by excessive salivation. The public's abandonment of soft drinks would simultaneously cripple both the general North American economy (short range effect)...and the dental profession (longer range effect). Dentists are big spenders too, so that would further damage an already reeling economy. The one undesirable effect of this scheme from a terrorist's point of view would be: a great improvement in the dental health of Americans...and millions of other people worldwide, plus a reduced rate of diabetes. Well, there are a few bugs in every great idea. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gervase Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:22 AM ...and stopping the world from drinking cabronated drinks would also hit the bin Laden family pretty hard. My understanding is that much of the family's wealth came from the refining and export of gum arabic, widely used in the soft drink and confectionary industries. Strange to think that every time you crack open a Coke you could be indirectly (and minutely) helping ol' Osama! |
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