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A Feminist Approach to Terrorism
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Subject: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: KitKat Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:13 AM A friend sent me this inspiring thought ... What to do with Osama bin Laden: Killing him will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release. Therefore, I suggest we do neither. Let the Special Forces, Seals, or whoever, covertly capture him, fly him to an undisclosed hospital and have surgeons quickly perform a complete sex change operation. Then we return her to Afghanistan to live as a woman under the Taliban. Seems fair. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Jon Freeman Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:17 AM KitKat, this is the 3rd time that I have seen this reach the forum click here. Jon |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: catspaw49 Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:21 AM LMAO........Aw now Jon, I think you and I should drop the subject and see what happens. It seems this one may have the legs to get right up there with Songcatcher and Seagull!!! Spaw
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Donuel Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:23 AM HOWEVER I thought of a new twist on this. Since water supplies are rather limited it would be fairly simply to add enormous quantities of estrogen to the Taliban water supply and thereby rendering them with enormous breasts and NO BEARDS ! |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Jon Freeman Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:23 AM LOL, maybe your right there spaw.... Jon |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:27 AM On a more serious note, while we are busy making little ones out of big ones in Kabul, would we not be well advised to network the hundreds of thousands of free Muslim women who can be found in Europe, the US, etc., and have them start a whispering campaign among their sisters in Afghanistan, and other countries who oppress women in the name of Allah? The Trojan Women (Aeschylus, I think) tells the story of women stopping war by witholding their ...er...support, as it were. I can se eit now -- terrorists resigning from their cells en masse because they couldn't get any!! A. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Donuel Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:41 AM Regarding the role of historic "Islamic women" it is said that Mohamad's wife is the one that pushed him into the religion business. This of course has different meanings and intents in Islamic writings but I thought it interesting. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:13 AM Amos???? Do you think in Afghanistan women can actually say NO????? Hello??? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 09 Oct 01 - 10:50 AM Great idea, Amos, as long as at the same time you begin a world-wide campaign to help the millions of Christian women opressed in the name of Jesus. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Gervase Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:24 AM Trouble is, the position of women in Afghanistan is no laughing matter. Take a look at the RAWA site. Be warned, though - some of the descriptions and images there are not for the faint-hearted. And, if you can, send them some money. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Steve Parkes Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM Of course, there's one problem with this approach. If you remember your Ali Baba, you'll recall that you can't enter Paradise unless you are complete with everything you started off with. (I wonder how they get on with apendectomies?) Putting the mockers on his chances of going to heaven might be taken an act of aggression. I know! Why not leave all the original stuff intact, and add on the complementary set? Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:31 PM Susan: The oppressed argument has been raised before. So let's see -- how well have they done by saying "Yes"? Hello? I am not recommending suicide here; but if a big, ugly encysted idea has to be changed, it has often historically required some guts and some pain. Why would any small farmer take up a squirrel gun and go hunker behind a stone wall somewhere and shoot at the most powerful army in the world when he could stay home and raise cows, corn and kids by minding his own business? Foolish idea, and very risky. I sympathize. All I can say is, it isn't going to change from without. A. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM The martyred founder of RAWA left this message behind, among many others:
I'm the woman who has awoken |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: marymarymary Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:50 PM Amos -- I think that would be "Lysistrata", not "The Trojan Women"... |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM Yes, since the women were Spartan and Athenian... |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM Amos, I woud bet that the women of Afghanistan know quite a bit about guts. And I think you can leave the decisions about what pain to risk, to the people involved. They can estimate the risk, and do, I am sure, on a daily basis. You can't, from where you sit, and debating with me about it will change nothing in their lives. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:08 PM Well shet ma mouth, Momma! I am sure King George knew what he was doing. Thanks for straightening out my thinking for me. A valuable service, I am sure. As soon as I start seeing the benefits of this benevolent intercession, I will be sure to let you know. It's good to know I have friends in high places who are willing to go to all that trouble to keep me on the right track here. A.
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Jim Krause Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM Aw now ~S~, "No." is ALWAYS an option. Yes, I think Afghan women have the option of saying No to anything. After all, the heart of nonviolent resistance is recognizing that No is a valid choice. Jim |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Gary T Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM I would imagine that they can say no, and that the consequences of that would be to get severely beaten and then raped. I doubt it's a realistic option in that society. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:58 PM You fellas are so funny. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Nemesis Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:41 PM Yeah, guys, have a laugh looking at the RAWA sight and also www.channel4.com/plus/afghanistan/journey1.html (which also links through the RAWA sight as well) which is the account by Saira Shah (daughter of Afghani scholar Idries Shah) of her recent secret journey through her homeland. And on the TV right now - secret reporter from BBC viewing the football stadium in Kabuel where they do the public executions - eye witness accounts of one woman's brains being splattered as she was executed by blows to the head. But, apparently less executions (in the stadium at least) than Texas - not counting all the ones in other places and ethnic massacres of Hazari people by the Taliban. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Jim Krause Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:43 PM Not any worse than what happened to my ancestors in Holland during the Spanish Regime in the 1500s, Hille. Some of them were drowned having stones tied about them in the Zuider Zee, some were burnt alive, others were torn limb from limb on a devilish machine called the rack. My direct ancestors were lucky, they moved accross the border into Germany. No matter what happens, death is inevitable. The means is irrelevant. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM Jim, I don't think it's a debate about "worse." I think it's a question of who is deciding on the action to take, or not to take. I just don't think anyone except the people involved can know what is possible or, more importantly in this discussion, likely to make anything better or anyone. I know that if my friend Amos were where the harm is being done, he would stop it. But that he would stop it, and rally the women to their power, if he could do it personally, does not equate to the simplistic suggestion of what "should" be done. He's not there to know all he would need to know, about this being the best course. And I am still trying to figure out how nonviolent resistance to rape, in the act occurring, would seem a whole lot different to the man involved than the good-old "advice" of "Lay back and enjoy it." ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Nemesis Date: 10 Oct 01 - 08:14 PM But, Jim - how do we know EXACTLY what happened to your ancestors 500 years ago: are there first-hand eyewitness and videoed accounts? Statistically, your ancestors are also probably a whole heap of other people's too: some of mine were French Hugenots and German Jews (one of whom (my G.grandfather) ironically ended up in a British internment camp as an alien in WW1) - but I really don't think we can be feeling victimised for what happened several hundred years ago. However, I think I see a point in what you are saying - the carnage in NY is appalling almost beyond comprehension, but let's not forget other equally appalling deaths at the hands of others: take your pick - in 500 years there are so many - Dunblane traumatised me for weeks (my son was just the same age as those children) the image of little childrens'splattered blood up the Gymnasium walls where the gunman had picked them off as they tried to escape - that's almost unbearable isn't it? Much easier to think: Soooooo(?) during the Crusades Christians slaughtered 10s of 1,000s or how about the Final Solution - 14 million including Jews, Poles, Gypsies? Or Stalin? Or Mao Tse Tung's March of Death and 3 million there? Your ancestors' deaths isn't irrelevant - it is very relevant to "So what have we learned in 500 years?" What we need to learn is to care about each other and to cherish life in all its many forms. Yes, all death (and taxes *G*) is inevitable but, caused by premature, unjust, randomised brutal means, it should not be irrelevant. Maybe there's some truth in the adage "Denying others' pain is denying your own"? Best wishes, Hille
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: SINSULL Date: 11 Oct 01 - 12:54 PM Definitely "Lysistrata" and Aristophanes not Aeschylus. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST,What if.... Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:27 PM What if Bin Laden actually is a woman. That could explain some things. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: katlaughing Date: 11 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM Jim said, "No matter what happens, death is inevitable. The means is irrelevant." Sorry, Jim, I think the means if very relevant, from a legal and spiritual standpoint. I'd much rather go to sleep, in old age and not wake up, than have my brains beat out of me in a public stadium. Legally, means can be the difference between a murder or natural death; between a murderer walking away or being caught. Spiritually, IMO, a peaceful means of death is much more preferable for the soul's journey than the shock of a car wreck, etc. Some even believe we should have the liberty and ability to meet death on our own terms, with the legal ability to take our own lives in the event our dignity and quality of life are losing to terminal illness. In some cultures, it was and is a good death when there is time to prepare and greet it, with proper singing, praying, meditating, ritualising. Amos, I luvya, and I don't mean any disrespect, but I am not sure most men will ever understand what it takes for a woman to be able to say "NO." It was only 25-30 years ago, in our society when it was still considered a "yes" and women died for saying no, or suffered economically and emotionally from withholding sex. This still goes on, I hope to a lesser degree, now. To suggest that the women in Afghanistan have the wherewithal to start such a campaign and to back it up is just naive, imo. They have been severly oppressed for many years, living in a near starvation, cave-age manner for so long. Can you imagine how demoralising that must be; how difficult it must be to have a coherent thought, let alone a plan, beyond how to feed the children their next meal? I am sure, because of the reports I've read and received by email, that most women have no strength to refuse, let alone the courage to go against such an extreme as the Taliban and their men who follow. It is a wonderful idea dn I'd love to see it happen, but I think the path of least resistance is probably about all they can muster at the moment, and that, my friend, would be the lie back and endure so that it is over quickly. The other thing is, too, it is not just the woman who would suffer, should she refuse. Her children, exp. her daughters would likely be beaten and/or raped, etc. Sorry, just say no didn't work for drugs; I don't think it will work in this instance, either. luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Herga Kitty Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:59 PM You couldn't even have this sort of conversation between men and women in Afghanistan. Gervase is right - the plight of women in Afghanistan under the Taliban is unremittingly awful and a crime against human rights. Kitkat - being a feminist means asserting that women have rights that should be respected as well as men, not emasculating men or point scoring. Women have been terrorists too, even if they've lost out in the wider scheme of things. Jim - my grandfather moved from Poland to Germany to avoid pogroms, and ended up being deported back to the Warsaw Ghetto while my grandmother died in a camp. Death and taxes are inevitable, but the globalisation of terrorism has appalling implications unless we can find a better way of resolving conflicts in the 21st century. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Oct 01 - 03:05 AM Have any of you any idea just how difficult it is to say no to someone who is holding your throat in their hands? LTS |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:24 AM Exactly, Liz. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Amos Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:30 AM I think I need to emphasize that the Lysistrata tactic was just an afterthought. Perhaps naive. But the salient point remains that the ground truth of Afghan culture will change when the women change it, and if just whispering the occasional radical thought is as far as they can go right now, so be it. There is always some small degree of communication possible -- no matter how oppressive the overall flavor of the culture is -- between husbands and wives. That small degree, whatever it consists of, is the tip of the wedge. Physical sexual consent or lack thereof is not the key issue. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM Please stop assuming that they are not already doing the most elegant, effective things possible. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:31 AM Amos, communication with one's husband is not the easiest nor the most desireable thing in this kind of situation, quite often. If the husband is a member of the Taliban or someone who is following thier line out of fear, he's not going to give his wife the time of day, let alond discuss whether she should decide whether they have sex or not. This is a dark ages society, for now. Women are chattel, even married women; the oppression is complete, severe and deadly. Body parts are cut off as a common punishment. No, of course not all citizens of Afghanistan are so, but the Taliban is in charge and even men who have defied their rulings concerning women have been murdered and mutilated. Please visit the RAWA site and some of the others, read the women's stories, etc. A woman making any kind of sound with her shoes, while walking, is inflaming a man's sexuality and can be killed for doing so. Tis is an extreme and terrifying place to live right now and I think you are being naive to think that the women hold any kind of key, at this point, to change. Perhaps the women who've escaped to Pakistan might be able to bring about changes with help, but they would have to be the ones to help their sisters and I don't see them doing it through a whisper campaign, at this point. kat |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST,Nieven Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:39 AM A feminist Approach to Terrorism? Simple: 1. Blame all terrorism on men. 2. See terrorism everywhere. At home, at the grocery, at the bank, on the street, on the bus, in the phone booth, at the tanning salon, while reading novels, in the bath, while skiing, you name it. Terrorism by men. 3. Fight back by imitating men. Dress like a man, spit like a man, walk like a man, cuss like a man, try and grow a mustache if possible. One drawback is that you may end up acting so much like a man that other feminists think you ARE a man and ostracize you and blame you for terrorism. This may mean you've taken it just a little too far! There's a fine line between effective feminism and self-defeat, and it takes most of us a while to master the technique, so don't be discouraged, but persevere. 4. Get together in groups with other feminists and discuss the perfidious and disgusting aspects of male terrorism...and men generally. 5. Wear birkenstocks or big clunky workboots, and NEVER shave your legs! 6. Open an art gallery with nothing in it but art by women. The art should be really ugly and modern, not traditional. It should be hard to relate to, so that only the IN people can understand it...or at least pretend to. 7. Start up a traveling musical show with nothing in it but female performers who write their own songs...songs that expose male terrorism in every way possible. 8. Buy an island and don't allow any men on it. 9. Glue down the toilet seats in public toilets with crazy glue, so men can't raise them. 10. Make pitying and snide remarks about the stupidity of male terrorists. 11. Drive an 18 wheeler to the office, and park it so the male workers can't move their cars. That'll make their pitiful little phalluses wilt! 12. Write a best-selling book on how to combat male terrorism on the job, and promote it on TV talk shows. 13. If you are unfortunate enough to have a male child, make sure he grows up with an innate understanding of just how much males have contributed to terrorism in the world. 14. Get even. It isn't easy, it may take a lifetime, but get even. If there is a God, She will reward you. If not, you still got even anyway, and that's what counts.
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: DougR Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM I'm with kat. Having your brains beat out would likely hurt. Going to sleep and not waking up is a lot better, I think. DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Gary T Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM Uh, gee, Nieven, that's not a sore spot, is it? By the way, #9 (glue down toilet seats) would not particularly inconvenience men, but in shared bathrooms it could result in some wet posteriors. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM It might incovenience a man, depending on what he was planning to do in there. I should think, however, that equipping wall urinals in men's washrooms with automatic mini-guillotines would be more to the point in this case, and more in spirit with Nieven's whole program. The guillotine device could be cunningly hidden in the upper section of the urinal and timed to drop 5 or 10 seconds after "insertion" by the user, whether or not anything was happening yet. It could easily be done with an electronic eye or laser beam sensor, and would serve as a wake-up call to those who are slow getting started in the morning! - LH |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM Lot of assumption there about lengths, LH!**BG** |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: DougR Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:42 PM I suppose, kat, before one was allowed to urinate a man might be required to take a Viagra pill before insertion. That might make up the difference when there is a "shortage" so to speak. My suggestion doesn't mean I am endorsing L.H.'s suggestion, however. DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: DougR Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM Scrap that idea. Not practical. No man is going to stand there an hour waiting to pee. DougR |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:46 PM LMAO!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Bill D Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:29 PM boy, talk about the difficulties of seeing an alternate point of view!....Human Beans are divided in so many ways! |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST,Chip A. Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:18 PM Since we're the biggest guy on the block, I think we are OBLIGATED (not shouting, just don't know how to make italics) to go get the bastards doing these atrocities and hang them by the balls. I know this doesn't sit well with isolationist thinking. So what? Why is this different from helping a rape or mugging victim in an alley in Chicago? To hell with Osama! We should have been there already. Do we only care when they kill "our" people? Aren't we all "our people"? I don't say that we ought to force our culture or politics on others. That is not what I mean. What I mean is.......if someone is getting their ass kicked because they are weak or were born a woman and if they're screaming for help, we oughta go help. Chip A. |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM Fer Gawd's sake, Chip, stay on the subject! Kat - Well, I figure these guys who are either overendowed or have the habit of standing too close to the urinal deserve to be "cut down to size" anyway. :-) It would establish greater equality. It would help us in America to realize the ideal "All men are created equal" in a really telling way. - LH |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: GUEST,Frank Date: 13 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM One form of retribution would be to capture bin Laden and all the other Wahhabi terrorists and imprison them with one addition, they should all be forced to wear a burqua behind bars for life. The only time they would be allowed to show their face is when a photographer would take their picture and send it to the Middle East. Frank |
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Subject: RE: A Feminist Approach to Terrorism From: Max Tone Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:58 PM Yeh, An' most religions were started by males. They might also be said to breed 'Terror', in the form of "The Fear/Wrath of God". Is that a 'feminist approach to Terrorism'? |
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