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Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?

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BLOWING IN THE WIND


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Finn McCool 28 Oct 01 - 07:51 PM
Steve Latimer 28 Oct 01 - 09:00 PM
Troll 28 Oct 01 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,Steven Sellors 28 Oct 01 - 11:19 PM
Rick Fielding 28 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM
Art Thieme 28 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM
Gary T 29 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM
catspaw49 29 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM
Suffet 29 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM
Rick Fielding 29 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM
Bennet Zurofsky 29 Oct 01 - 04:16 PM
kendall 29 Oct 01 - 08:18 PM
Steve Latimer 29 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,pavane 30 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 30 Oct 01 - 08:09 AM
Uncle_DaveO 31 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM
dick greenhaus 31 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Oct 01 - 02:44 PM
GUEST 01 Nov 01 - 08:46 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM
Louie Roy 31 Mar 14 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 31 Mar 14 - 07:24 PM
GUEST 31 Mar 14 - 08:13 PM
Acme 31 Mar 14 - 10:43 PM
Georgiansilver 01 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM
Elmore 02 Apr 14 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,Reidh Beallagh 07 Oct 15 - 02:08 PM
PHJim 08 Oct 15 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Desi C 08 Oct 15 - 10:52 AM
MGM·Lion 08 Oct 15 - 11:17 AM
GUEST, DTM 08 Oct 15 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Jerome Clark 08 Oct 15 - 08:24 PM
PHJim 18 Oct 15 - 10:09 PM
MartinRyan 19 Oct 15 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Desi C 20 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 15 - 07:05 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM
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Subject: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Finn McCool
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 07:51 PM

Dear Catters,

Urban legend or not: Did Bob Dylan rip off the song Blowin'in the Wind from another folksinger named Lorre Wyatt?

On one web site I found the song Little Sadie listed as "Words and music copyright Bob Dylan". That song was old well before Dylan was born. Also, the tune and even the format of With God on Our Side appear to have been lifted from Patriot Games, another pre-Dylan song. He seems not to have a very good track record in this area. Makes the Lorre Wyatt thing seem more credible.

What do you think?

--Finn


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 09:00 PM

Bob has been accused of ripping off the melody from a very old song that originated in Canada by slaves who escaped from the U.S. The song is "No More Auction Block". There is a version by Dylan on the Bootleg Series 1-3. I think I have a pretty good ear, but if his version is even close to the original they are pretty diiferent melodies. There is a tiny guitar bit after the chorus that has a similarity to the chorus of Blowin', but that's the only thing I heard that is even close.

No More Auction Block is a very powerful song by the way. Those in the know seem to think that he learned it from Odetta.


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:16 PM

When 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre, He'd 'eard men sing by land an' sea; An' what he thought 'e might require, 'E went an' took -- the same as me!

The market-girls an' fishermen, The shepherds an' the sailors, too, They 'eard old songs turn up again, But kep' it quiet -- same as you!

They knew 'e stole; 'e knew they knowed. They didn't tell, nor make a fuss, But winked at 'Omer down the road, An' 'e winked back -- the same as us!

Kipling said it best. Dylan did no more than others before him.

troll


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: GUEST,Steven Sellors
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 11:19 PM

I love urban legends. I love non sequiturs. I can't make clicky's.

Read all about Bob & Blowin' in the Wind: http://www.snopes2.com/music/songs/blowin.htm

SS


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM

Nope . The Laurie Wyatt legend had to do with a song of similar title. Laurie DID perpetuate it a bit however, and then came clean in Sing Out Magazine many years ago....he seemed quite embarassed.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM

Rick is correct. Laurie W. told a few people he'd written "Blowin In The Wind" and then decided to quit sayin' that since things were getting out of control. But the genie was out of the bottle and wouldn't get back in so Mr. Wyatt owned up to what had gone down.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Gary T
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM

In re Little Sadie, my understanding is that Dylan bought copyrights to some old songs, as Michael Jackson did to Beatles Songs. That's not the same as claiming to have written them.


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM

You'll find some interesting info on other songs as well at this site......Dylan Influences

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM

"Little Sadie" is a traditional folksong, and as such would be in the Public Domain. Bob Dylan's copyright would extend only to any substantially new material (music, arrangement, lyrics) he added. Please remember that the US Copyright Office does not issue copyrights. A composer owns a copyright by virtue of authorship. What the US Copyright Office does is register claims. Anyone can attempt to claim anything, but not all claims can be successfully defended in face of challenges.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM

If you wanna hear a neat (and possibly first recording of) Little Sadie (or Bad Lee Brown) check out Clarence Ashley's take on it.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 04:16 PM

Sing Out! has just published an article by Michael Cooney regarding the relationship between traditional songs and singers and Bob Dylan's compositional processes. You should check it out. It includes a good story about Woody Guthrie's advice to Dylan on this very matter. I can assure you that Woody did not urge him to scrupulously respect copyrights or the claims of traditional singers.

There is always much to criticize about Dylan, but when all is said and done he has done more than just about any other person to enrich the folk tradition (broadly defined), it is hardly surprising that his work shows his traditional influences to those in the know.

As to Lorre Wyatt (who by the way is a man, not a woman, as some of the misspellings of his name suggest), he is a pretty good songwriter, and a very good singer of "folksongs," but he did not write "Blowing In the Wind." His best known song is probably his ecological rewrite of Elmore James' "Baby What You Want Me to Do?" which Pete Seeger an many a Clearwater crew member have sung over the years (Sailin' up/Sailin' Down/Sailin' up down/Down up/All along the River . . .).

What is true is that Lorre made one of the first recordings of "Blowing In the Wind" as part of a high school folksinging group that was an adjunct of the chorus at Millburn (N.J.) High School called the Millburnaires. Indeed, this may have been the very first recording of the song, limited edition L.P. that it was. This L.P. lists Lorre as the composer. He had heard Dylan sing it at some club in the village before he or anyone else really knew who Dylan was. He liked the song, taught it to the rest of the group, foolishly took the credit, and the rest is history . . .


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 08:18 PM

Ed Trickett sings one that is quite close to Dont think twice. Apparently Dylan swiped that one too.


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM

Yeah, Bob swiped everything. He'll come clean in his bio. 40 years, 43 albums, all stolen. Even the title of his new album is an admission of the fact. I'm sure he'll be relieved when it's finally out in the open. I believe it was actually Frank Bacon who wrote his body of work.


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

Compare a few examples

Nottamun Town and Masters of War (tune)
Bob Dylan's dream and Lord Franklin (words & tune)
Ballad in Plain D and I loved a Lass (Words)
Hard Rain and Lord Randal (He did acknowledge that one)
Restless Farewall and The Parting Glass (tune)
Fare Thee Well and The Leaving of Liverpool (both)


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 08:09 AM

I don't worship at the Dylan throne, but I've always been confounded by "traditional" folk claims that he has ripped the tradition off. Musical influences are musical influences. Dylan was influenced by *many* folk musicians in his formative years--Odetta, Woody, the Clancys, and others. He was also influenced by early rock and roll, which rarely gets discussed. Why is the ire so great for him supposedly "ripping off" the tradition or other folk musicians, and so little for his rock influences?

You don't hear similar complaints about the Band, for instance, and they were doing the very same thing Dylan was, but had different folk influences.

Seems to me, this particular sort of Dylan bashing is wholly unwarranted. Sheer begrudgery. And rooted in the British folk scene much more than the American folk scene, where Dylan's and the Band's folk influences, and the artful way they merged them with rock and roll, are much more widely appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM

Troll's quote of the Kipling poem was well thought, but only to a point.

Homer didn't copyright what he stole.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM

Using older tunes isn't a rip-off. Stealing a phony Okie accent, though....


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:44 PM

What's a North Dakota accent like anyway?


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Subject: RE: Blowin'in the Wind Ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 08:46 AM

McGrath,

Rent the video of "Fargo" and you'll hear Frances McDormand's pretty good impression of a NoDak accent. William Macy's isn't near as good. Neither hit the mark totally, but that's about as close as you can get from there to here.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM

But we're talking about the melodies not the lyrics, which he scrupled to change. he didn't change a lick of "The leaving of Liverpool". Actually, I thought for years that it was the Leaving of liverpool, because I didn't think he did a very good job of singing the leaving of liverpool so I didn't listen to it. His best faculty is that of lyric writing. He can play music better than I, but he can't hardly sing.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: Louie Roy
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:40 PM

I was told by my grand dad that an old negro wrote a poem or a tune in 1863 called blowing in he wind. If you listen to the song
1---How many years will the cannon ball fly
2---How many ears hear people cry
3---How many deaths too many people died
4---How many years people exist to be free
I firmly believe this tune was written in the civil war and if you listen to all the words you can hear this negro word for word


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:24 PM

I remember a sing out magazine I saw a little while before Dylan's Self Portrait albumn came out. In it was Little Sadie. "I went out last night just to take a little round, and I met little Sadie and I blowed her down..." etc. Dylan's version has not added shit to that song. nevertheless, he could sue the hell out of me, and go fuck himself.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:13 PM

"My father said in his own musicological way,
plagiarism is basic to all culture."- Pete Seeger


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: Acme
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:43 PM

I believe it was actually Frank Bacon who wrote his body of work. Very funny!


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM

The only real rip off.. is the song.... "How many beans in a baked bean can... How many beans in a can"?...................................The answer my friend is blowing in the wind... the answer is blowing in the wind!!!


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:48 AM

Dylan got the tune and a couple of lines to "Don't Think Twice" from the late Paul Clayton whose song was titled "Who's Gonna Buy You Ribbons When I'm Gone?"


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST,Reidh Beallagh
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 02:08 PM

The copyright was I'm sure demanded by the Producers and Publishing Companies. Like Wyatt in the urban rumor, he just rolled with it, and has never "come clean". Most of the problem I have is with, I think, the "arr. by" claims. Everybody does that, to "copyright their particular "treatment" of any original. But he begged borrowed or stole from many extremely poor and forgotten Black Artists, say the Mississippi Sheikhs (sp) et al. and very seldom lets out any idea of connection to his work. If you google "Blood In My Eyes" you will get an idea. Not a word in album notes nor Biographies etc.. He don't care. I imagine he thinks he has made up for it by marrying his Black Back Up Singer and having a daughter by her, Something that He doesn't address in Public. A.P. Carter did the same thing, traveling around and collecting and mixing and matching and rearranging old 'favorites' from the Hill peoples of Appalachia. But Dylan is trying to appear as though these works just popped out of his head like Athena and Zeus. When people give him acclaim ( or awards )for his work he has never said "Aw shucks, tweren't nuthin' jus' sumthin' I got from ol' "Black Artists Name Here" ". Indeed he has self esteem issues, because if he had ever Publicly given any artist other than Woody Guthrie ( the Original Gypsy Rover ) any credit either overt or indirect ly, people would have had even Greater respect for his work. But no. He will not allow the lime and/or spot light to be dimmed by one lumen, lest he suffer the pangs and sorrow of not being thought the Genius that he actually is. Einstein disguised as Robin Hood.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: PHJim
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 12:31 AM

GUEST,pavane mentioned "Bob Dylan's dream and Lord Franklin (words & tune)"

In the album (Freewheelin' I believe)liner notes Dylan mentions that he got the tune from an old folk song learned from a British singer whose name he believed was Martin Carthy.
Most of us Martin Carthy fans have heard the song Lord Franklin.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:52 AM

I can only speak for The Patriot Game, which was written by Dominic Behan, a prolific writer of Irish songs. Behan did in fact accuse Dylan of ripping off The Patriot Game. But anyone who knows the lyrics can see there is no rip off of the lyrics, while there is a vague similarity in the subject the words differ substantually. He did indeed use the same tune, but any Iriosh song scholar will tell you that the tine used by Behan ws itself lifted from a very old trad Irish tune, so Dylan was only using the age old Folk process of using an already used tune to good effect of and which was out of copyright. Behan was kn own for these little temperamental outbursts, and often accused other performers , such as The Clancy Bros of things they were not guilty of.

Finally, Dylan is a prolific writer, who freely credits such performers as Guthrie, Paxton, Seeger, The Clancy's, Behan's and many others as influences. It'd be surprising therefore if he DIDN'T write stuff that may have strong similarities to existing works. but that goes for most Folk writers


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 11:17 AM

Little Sadie, now -- a song that has really done the rounds. The version I sing is an amalgamation of my own from renderings by Hedy West & Doc Watson; to two different tunes & stanza forms: one a straight four-liner [Doc Watson's I think],

I went out last night and I made my rounds
I met Little Sadie and I shot her down
Then I went back home and went to bed
44-pistol under my head


& a line - repeat line - final line [Hedy West]

Went out last night & I made my rounds
Sez went out last night & I made my rounds
   Sez I met little Sadie & I blowed her down


-- very effective with Hedy's characteristic ostinato banjo technique.

Sometimes I use one tune, sometimes the other; or alternate tune & stanza form...

≈M≈


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:37 PM

I read at the back of a Bob Dylan bio. that a guy at his High School actually wrote Blowing In The Wind. The chap has constantly refused to deny or admit that he wrote the song.
Maybe he's already been paid off or then again, maybe he's enjoying the attention.
Bob is/was notorious for 'sampling' other folks' stuff.
The BBC broadcasted a programme highlighting this a few years ago.
"Farewell Angelina" = "Farewell to Tarwathie"   100%


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST,Jerome Clark
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:24 PM

Dylan isn't "notorious" for using traditional melodies and lyrics. He's just writing like a folk singer. Always has. Admits it.

As for the idiotic, unkillable canard that he didn't write "Blowin' in the Wind" (though its melody, as is well known, is borrowed from "No More Auction Block"), the full story of this hoax can be found on pages 161-162 of the late Robert Shelton's No Direction Home: The Life and Music of Bob Dylan (1986).

According to a a rumor circulating at the time (a version of which Newsweek picked up and printed), the alleged "true" author was Lorre Wyatt, who's still around and not all that long ago released an Appleseed CD of topical songs with Pete Seeger. Shelton quotes a letter Wyatt wrote to Broadside on June 5, 1963:

"Last year, I wrote a song called 'Freedom Is Blowing in the Wind,' long before I'd ever heard Dylan's 'Blowin' in the Wind'. The lyrics are nothing whatsoever like Bob's, and the tune is completely different. But the titles were similar ... some kids confused it with his, and were very indignant when they heard that Dylan 'stole' my song, which I hadn't bothered to copyright.... I patiently ... explained to them that _only_ the titles were similar -- and that was all."

Then in February 1974 Wyatt confessed in a New Times article that this wasn't true, either. He'd never written anything remotely like the Dylan song (presumably including the title), and that Broadside letter was itself a piece of fiction. Anyone who has heard Wyatt's songs will have no problem concluding he could not have written "Blowin' in the Wind."

It boggles the mind to consider that in the 21st Century there still are people who think that Dylan, even the young Dylan, was incapable of writing the lyrics to "Blowin' in the Wind." Wyatt properly calls beliefs to that effect "fakelore." Maybe "rank bullshit" is more to the point.


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: PHJim
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 10:09 PM

When Woody was told about someone using one of his tunes, he said, "He just steals from me. I steal from everybody."


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Oct 15 - 07:18 AM

I think it was Liam Clancy who summed it up many years ago by saying that, in his Greenwich Village days, Dylan was like a sponge, soaking up everything he heard and squeezing it out again...


Regards


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

Dylan was like a sponge, soaking up everything he heard and squeezing it out again...Liam Clancy

That quote surely sums up all great Folk musicians, Dylan never 'copied' anyone or if he did then you have to accuse every musician of the same. He simply did what Pete Seeger called, keeping the music alive


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 07:05 AM

If anything in Dylan might be called a ripoff it was "With God on our side". I recall Dominic Behan complaining in a letter to The Guardian that Dylan had ripped off the tune of his (Dominic's) "The Patriot Game" aka "My name is O'Hanlon"; but the paper then published my riposte to that which was that Dominic had in turn not composed that tune, but recycled one version of "The Grenadier & The Lady" -- not the "kissed so sweet & comforting" one but another equally known. To which Dominic, to do him justice, replied that he had not consciously done so but admitted that I was right.

So wags the world merrily along -- especially the folk-


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Subject: RE: Blowin' in the Wind - Ripoff?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 07:15 AM

Esp as Dylan's first line "My name it is nothing, my age it means less" must consciously have been intended to echo Dominic's "My name is O'Hanlon, I'm just turned 16".


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