Is Mudcat a friendly site?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:09 PM

Mick, you do raise a good point. It is fair to say that I had read and still do use places other than Mudcat but it is equally true to say that Mudcat and people here did provide the motivation. It is also relevant to say that some of the changes at the Annexe were due to either me or someone else picking up on ideas from Mudcat - IMO, from a design perspective (or my attemt at one) there is a hell of a lot of good features here.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:13 PM

McGrath, I thought it was spaw but it looks to me as if it was Tweed who provided the link. here it is

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:15 PM

No. Mudcat is not a friendly site.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:40 PM

Just read again... McGrath, I see drift and humour as being positives here. To me, where it ceases to be positive is where it reaches a point that I can predict who is likely to follow up the drift and the type of flow.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:03 PM

I'm a real Nowhere Man

You are here a lot - and here is somewhere. And I certainly don't get your point -

Copy Big Mick's comments here for me also. Verbatim please!!

Steve

Place is as friendly as you want it to be - I like it :-)

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,Gusty
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:04 PM

IMHO, the Mudcat is friendly most of the time. There have been some pretty caustic, harsh posts between some folks, and once in a while, someone gets unduely picked on. I myself have felt a little unwelcome here, to the extent that I withdrew as a member, but that's just my fragile ego coming through, I suppose. I still love the 'Cat. It's by far the best forum, music-related or otherwise, that I've come across on the web. Hope it never disappears.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:32 PM

Just one more comment (I hope) from what I've read here so far. Mick, just for information, do an Internet search on "usenet".

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:05 PM

Jon, I think folks are simply forgiving when it comes to Mudcat being down, and are appreciative of the fact it exists at all. Max has a lot of other irons in the fire. I believe if the Annexe went down for a few days, regular readers and posters would say "thanks" to you when it came back up. As a matter of fact, didn't that actually happen when they switched your server?

I DID try out the "newest-on-top" option at the Annexe, and really like it. Guess I must have just t-mailed my thanks to you. (That's "telepathy-mailed.) I apologise - should have written my thanks in those letter and word thingies.

I believe that the more places there are to branch out, the better. When I first started reading Mudcat, it was pretty much music, with a bit of community-related discussion. (Spaw being in hospital, folks traveling and meeting, etc.) Now, there are almost unofficial sub-forums. There's still the music, but there also seems to be 1) a political debate forum; 2) a forum about the forum (what's right/wrong with Mudcat). Many threads wind up being in this category whenever someone bitches about off-topic stuff like Mudcat group dynamics or the fact the thread isn't going according to their vision of way the thread should go, and everybody else jumps off-topic to follow them down that well-worn path; 3) a "life's little problems" forum, which includes sub-sub headings of medical, emotional, ethical, among others; and 4) a "people and community" forum which includes birthdays, marriages, meetings, and other events. Most threads fall mostly into one of these headings, but often cross over into more than one, and MAY even include music.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that others have a problem with it. I'm not so worried about the folks who identify so strongly with Mudcat that they hang around and attempt to sic the demon of their disillusionment on everybody else. They have a problem we don't have the power to do anything about. I care about the people who just leave because there isn't enough of interest to them to stick around. My beliefs: The more the "music-only" types leave, the less music discussion. The less music discussion, the more "music-mostly" types leave - it seems to be a spiral. It's not the added BS that chases them off, it's primarily the lack of music discussion. I don't know that we have any power over that, either. Maybe one person can be convinced to not post everything they think of, but how do you get a few hundred folks to maybe think about not posting everything they think of? All it takes is a few folks giving into temptation that ONE time. Discipline won't happen here unless it's enforced discipline - rules and moderators - and I do NOT want to see that happen. I doubt Max has the slightest inclination to seriously consider those things, anyway.

I don't need much stucture. Some folks do, and the unlimited variety of subjects here must drive them nuts. I believe having more places to discuss varied topics is good. I don't know what's in store in the future, but what Mudcat could become, based on steadily increasing participation, our collective purposes, and our willingness or unwillingness to consider others, ranges from disasterous to magical.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:18 PM

I thought it was friendly. Then I hear talk of gnu steaks ! Not bad enough but Spaw mentions TTB ! Goodness gracious me. No guest should be served TTB without at least a warning. THAT'S unfriendly.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:15 PM

To get back to the original question that pinkfiddle asked:

Yes, mudcat is about as friendly as it gets.

But if someone like 'pinkfiddle' with her tissue paper thin skin wants to start bawling like a baby because somebody didn't like her thesis, then perhaps she should stay at home and live inside a piece of cotton wool.

Her absense from this thread suggests that she has

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: marty D
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:25 PM

Sorry for touching a nerve, anonymous constantly testy GUEST, but I doubt if your number is legion. I'm pretty sure it's just you. (the really angry posts anyway)

marty

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:44 PM

I think Mudcat is friendly but some Guests just kike to make yruoubke, i think we shoulf just ignore them.john

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:04 AM

Mudcat is whatever you need it to be.
You just have to take the time to find it.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:11 AM

Mudcat, without the flaming,trolling, sniping, name-calling, baiting, complaining, whining, bitching, nit-picking, and general false-issue trouble making by cowardly 'guests', would BE a 97% friendly site.

Someone..(or two or three) has really gotten a burr under their saddle and simply cannot distinguish banter among friends from 'inner-cliqueism'

....It is sad and stupid and totally reprehensible to spend that much time trying to create rancor in a place where so much goodness and help and joy ...and yes, happy silliness, have been shared......

'nuff said

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:37 AM

Spoken like a true elder, Bill....LOL. It is why you are one of the best in these parts. Well said, my good friend.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:51 AM

Bill, I think it may just be someone who wants everyone to be as miserable as they are. They're the ones who have to deal with their petty, childish behavior. It is VERY hard for me to imagine a somewhat responsible adult acting like this, which is also why I can't bring myself to take anything they say seriously, or flame 'em back. What they're doing to themselves is far worse than anything I'm capable of. I look in the mirror and see someone who tries to behave in ways I can be relatively proud of. They see someone who has given up on any sense of honor, and enjoys trying to hurt people. What the hell kind of horrorshow must that be?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 09:51 AM

Bill, I see it as banter between a group of friends but between one specific group of friends.

Believe it or not, I do have a sense of humour (mine can be a bit dark at times), enjoy chatting on a variety of subjects, etc. Seem to remember having some good banter and very enjoyable with you on ICQ during MCR...

My guess is that many of us do enjoy chat but choose not to litter the forum with it on a regular basis.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:29 PM

Jon, maybe that "one specific group of friends" is what makes some feel uncomfortable or excluded. I don't think exclusion's the problem, though. I think some folks may just be uncomfortable with banter, and that if they don't/can't join in, they aren't welcome. Then again, I believe most newcomers will hang around and get the feel of the place before they judge it.

I've seen new folks just jump right into the banter many times, without the slightest hint of rejection. There are also plenty of folks who never join the banter, and some post exclusively on music. They "belong" just as much. Folks decide for themselves what they want to share with others.

Folks also decide what they want to get out of Mudcat. It's still that thing about taking what you want and leaving the rest. That it's futile to try to make the rest of the world behave the way they want is a lesson that some never learn. Attacks spawn retaliation, or, at the very least, a lack of respect. A person's own words and actions are what determine how they're treated here. If the whole world seems to be against someone, maybe it ain't the whole world that's messed up.

I still think honesty works better than anything else. "I wish you wouldn't joke around with me, because I don't feel comfortable...Did you mean to insult me? If so, why?" Of course, the GUEST flamer regulars seem to treat honesty as a threat, or they'd be trying to talk with people instead of at them. The friendships, the acts of kindness, the humor and the comfort level people feel here are something they - and no one else - have destroyed for themselves, but the place still has enough of a grip on them so they can't leave it alone.

For me, the disgruntled postings aren't even a drop in the bucket compared with all the good I've found here. I've met kindred spirits and cherished friends from all over the world. I've sung the sun up with them, and I've shared their joy in the music and in life. I've exchanged gifts of heart and mind. How could I possibly let anything make me leave that behind?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:03 PM

Jeri, I certainly do not see exclusion as an issue even though I use the term "inner clique". I don't believe any of the "members" are like that. I'd sent this as a PM to someone earlier today but think it may be in order to post it (well I'm skipping the 1st paragraph) here as it probably explains some of my perspective better than many of my posts an reactions:

---

Realistically, Mudcat is a good site overall. I would be reluctant to use phrases like "the best on the Web" because I really do not know what is out there and I find it almost impossible to imagine that there are not similar communities in other areas of interest. Within music (IMO) Mudcat is vastly superior to any other resource I use but I still see problems here.

The problems - rows, etc. have existed since I've been here (3yrs?) and trends continue. Jeri noted a spiral in her reply to my most. This is something I agree with and find a worry. Rightly or wrongly (I obviously believe rightly) I see music as the "god" or single binding force here with other bits as being bonuses. The sad reality seems to me that the number of serious music posters does decline over time and that "nonsense" does play a big part in that and therefore carries an unacceptable toll. I know one could argue "it's their problem" but one could also try to think "are there ways to ease the situation?".

My first thought (and I am very pro community) is that the system is wrong and that a duel forum system would ease a lot of (recurring) tension. I think for Mudcat, my choice would be an open musical section and even go as far as member only for a community section where people could talk freely on other subjects without the worry of being attacked by one of the "nasties" - believe me, I do not enjoy seing someone getting ripped to shreads for "bearing their soul" here...

As a side issue, such an approach would have the added benifit of musical threads being easier to search for for visitors and arguably create a better impression for first time visitors - I can only speak for myself on that one but the first time I visited Mudcat (recommended to me by SingsIrish - is Mary still around?) I read a few BS threads and left. I visited again about a month later on the reccomendation of Jeri (someone I had made friends with via rec.music.celtic and still a very good friend) and ended up staying.

OK, the split won't happen here but I then think that because everything is effectivelly getting shoved down one narrow pipe, more thought should go into the treads themselves. There is lots of stuff I would like to talk about between people here that is not music related but I don't do it (although I now do in the Annexe) - why? in my case, its not for fear of being flamed, it's because I think "what would happen if everyone shared all thier interests, worries, happiness, etc. here all the while?" - the result IMO would be disastarous - music threads would be completely obscured...

I suspect I am not the only one that does not "chat" for that reason - there are only a handfull that do "chat" on a regular basis, the same ones that tend to come into threads and make the inane comments and I'm afraid I do see it as a matter of being inconsiderate and using the forum selfishly (although not a clique in any exclusive sense of the word - it's more a matter of a mindset/mentality - there is no one who would reject anyone amongst the group) and just wish, given the circumstances, more consideration was given by them towards others.

Oh well, enough of my views and ramblings...

Jon

---

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:11 PM

Mudcat is like the rest of the world...friendly, unfriendly, amusing, interesting, boring, downright hostile, tedious, hilarious, and all the rest.

Which one you perceive it as is mostly dependent on the mood you yourself are in at the time...and somewhat dependent on the mood some other people are in at the time.

Like the rest of the world...

Your own attitude is the most important thing that you bring here, and you are the victim or the beneficiary of precisely that.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM

Yes, I think Mudcat is a "friendly site" in that it welcomes everyone with open arms, minimal restrictions and several options for maintaining privacy if desired. Most of the people on the site are friendly, too! :^)

Since this thread is at well over 100 posts, I think that the friendly thing to do would be to continue this discussion on "part 2" of this thread. Here is the link to it: Is Mudcat a friendly site? Part 2

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:40 PM

Ekh. What a load. Just when I thought I couldn't hate America any more... Seriously, someone from a good country: Adopt me. ----Lepus Rex

Thanks to Jeri for the link to this site.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 11:37 AM

I always thought Jeri was the smart Mudcatter. I couldn't have posted my trolls without her links.