BS: SLOW DOWN!

Subject: SLOW DOWN!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 10:25 PM

A few days ago I witnessed a road traffic accident, a car had driven onto the Hessle off slip of the A63 too fast, it hit the kerb, and flipped onto its roof.When I got to the car, the driver, a young man aged about 20, was dead. This is the third serious accident I have seen in as many weeks.95 percent of accidents are caused by human error (bad driving), most of these involve excess speed, in wet weather it takes twice as long to stop, in icy weather it takes 10 TIMES as long.So long down, you could save a life.cheers.john

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 10:36 PM

Makes me think of the tounge in cheek farewell I have often heard.... Drive fast, take chances, God hates a coward!

If you follow that advice you may see him sooner rather than later. Nick

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 10:54 PM

Or see Old Nick sooner.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 11:25 PM

There are no "accidents"...........somebody was always HUA.......Head Up A**.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 11:40 PM

Hmmm....Then I'm left to assume that 5% of the accidents are caused by good driving. Well now, ain't that a bitch?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 11:59 PM

John in Hull, thanks, you are right, it always pays to slow down and pay attention. Sorry you had to experience this so up close and personal; it's not easy, I know.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 04:25 AM

Spaw-I reckon the other 5% are caused by Mechanical failure, (brake failure, punctures etc) and people collapsing at the wheel (heart attack, stroke, epilepsy etc)

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 07:49 AM

When my two sons were little, I lived on a highway at the edge of town. It was about a six mile drive to thecenter of town, and people were always speeding. When someone would pass us like a bat out of Hell, I'd say to my sons, "See that guy? I'll beat him downtown without going over the speed limit." The guy would whiz by me, but when I came up to the next traffic light, he'd be sitting there, and I'd approach it at 30 miles an hour. If I timed it right, I'd hit the light as it changed, rolling along at the speed limit, while he was starting from scratch. Then, he'd go roaring by me again, to race up to the next traffic light. As the traffic built, he'd start switching lanes until he finally got himself caught behind someone and couldn't switch to the other lane, because I was there. Ninety percent of the time, I'd beat him down town. I'd do the same thing on the highway when traffic was bottled up... I'd pick some guy who was changing lanes like crazy, even though the traffic was hardly moving. Sooner or later, we'd pass him. It was a good lesson for my sons. If you want to win the race, use your head, not your foot.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: gnomad
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 09:57 AM

I don't see this as BS, too damn serious.

John, my recollection of that road is that it has been a bad one for a long time. Like you I can see no remedy beyond saying slow down, and learning first aid for the cases you can help a bit.

That the first accidental death you see stays with you I know by experience, 29 years and counting. You have my sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: AliUK
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 10:42 AM

come here to Recife and see how they drive. I'm lucky if I don't see a person dead in a car accident one day a week. The people here drive like crazy people, and the thing is that if you don't watch yourself you end up driving just like them just to keep from getting mangled.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

Yeah, its a shame that you had to witness that John, I hope youre ok about it...that sort of thing can hit a person pretty hard. You have my sympathies, as do the guys parents.

I find it hard to have any synpathy for HIM, however... I see it as one fool less in the world to hurt someone else with his stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: gnu
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 05:54 AM

My old man used to tell me, regarding driving in icy conditions, that the slower you're going when you hit something, the less it costs to fix. Good advice from a father trusting the family car to a sixteen year old.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:51 AM

....................REFRESH..........................
An aquantance of mine was killed in a road traffic accident yesterday, he leaves a wife and four children.
The local people will be familiar with this case, it was the Jim Bel coach crash near Driffield.
The bad weather is here now, drive carefully, or if you don't need to drive, stay at home.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Mudlark
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:25 AM

Sorry to hear of that jOhn...I live near a 2-lane highway with lots of big trucks and fast traffic--and lots of accidents. Local hew and cry finally forced the Hwy dept to do some fairly simple things to slow things down, first, making it mandatory on this stretch of hwy to have lights on, day and night, and also doubling all traffic fines, including no seat belts. They've also installed lots more of those little reflective bumps to separate the 2 lanes, and put rumble, also whine strips along verge to keep people on the straight and narrow and cut down on reckless passing. It isn't a total answer, but not very expensive and surprisingly effective. There's also more airplane radar surveillance.

It amazes me how much faith unsafe drivers have in their own ability, and also the kindness (and nimbleness) of strangers, with everybody hurtling along in tons of metal, separated by a scant couple of feet.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: mouldy
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:43 AM

Hope you're ok, j0hn. Things like that can have a nasty habit of re-emerging into your mind at unforseen moments. Yesterday's accident is the sort of thing that might just revive memories. However,you seem to be a very strong person. Every sympathy must go to the bereaved family.
It just goes to show what a few miles further north and a slight raise in altitude can do for the weather. We had no sign of frost yesterday in the Selby area.

The son one of my neighbours was killed by a speeding motorist in quite a bizarre way a few years ago. It was an icy morning and he was returning from work, going south on the A19 from Selby. He had just crossed the river Aire at Haddlesey (those from the area will know where I mean) when he hit some ice, as the road levelled out again, and came off the road and into the ditch, about fifteen feet deep and full of shrubs etc. Luckily he wasn't much hurt, so it appears he got out and went to flag down other motorists and warn them of the ice. A Jag came over the bridge, couldn't stop, and hit him. In those days it was a 60mph speed limit, but it's 40mph these days. It is a blind bridge at the best of times, until you are over it, and at full speed on an icy road, the Jag had no chance of control.

I have always been very cautious on icy roads, but had a narrow squeak about 10 years ago (about this time of year) on a bright sunny morning, following a frosty night. I got caught on some black ice on an adverse-cambered and sweeping bend by our village. I wasn't going very fast, as I hate that bend, and was aware of there being black ice around. But as I steered left round this particular bend that morning, the car carried on straight. Well it's a reasonably wide bit of road with not much traffic...apart from the van that suddenly appeared in the opposite direction. By this time I had dropped gears and lost the throttle, and also steered into the skid, to no avail - I didn't dare touch the brake more than a little (no ABS). So I prepared for the worst, and hoped the van driver would try and miss me. Suddenly one wheel must have hit a dry patch, as I found myself at a standstill on the grass verge, without even stalling the engine!

I passed my test in November 1977, and thus did all my early driving in winter conditions, but since the skid I have been absolutely terrified on untreated roads after snow or ice. We seem to get so few these days, and I am not so accustomed to it. I'd rather drive in fog any day (or night). Unfortunately I have to go out of the village to the dentist this morning, and we have frozen slushy snow. I'll be ok once I get going and get onto the treated roads. I am pleased to say that I am at last getting a bit more confident on icy roads these days, although I still seem to be rigid behind the wheel. I wish I still had the old Land Rover, last seen in 1986, but about a dozen icy days per year at the most, at only just above sea level in the Vale of York, somehow doesn't quite justify it!

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:55 AM

"95 percent of accidents are caused by human error (bad driving), most of these involve excess speed,"

To any who believe the above this, from the Association of British drivers makes interesting reading:

"Recently, the Transport Research Laboratory conducted the first serious and rigorous investigation into accident causation for many years. The results clearly highlighted the importance of taking a broader approach to road safety - demonstrating how excessive speed accounted for the causes of between just 4% and 7% of accidents. *

Notes

* The researchers in Transport Research Laboratory report TRL 323 looked at the way in which police forces recorded the contributory causes of accidents using the old, oversimplistic report forms and found significant inconsistencies across the country (for example, attribution of excessive speed as a cause varied between 5% and 19% in two similar rural police areas). They then devised a new system of categorising accident causes and piloted the system with eight police forces.

Accidents were split into fifteen "precipitating factors" to evaluate what actually happened, then 54 different "causation factors" were offered up for the investigating officer to attempt to establish why the accident had occurred. Up to four causes could be entered on the form, and each could be identified as a definite, probable or possible cause of the accident.

The results are fascinating. In almost 3,000 accidents studied, excessive speed accounted for only 7.3% of the 6000 causal factors, well behind observation and judgement related causes.

Even more tellingly, only 2,100 "definite" factors were identified, less than one per accident, showing the difficulty of establishing the cause of many accidents after the event, with often unreliable or deliberately misleading witness statements to go on.

Excessive speed was only identified as a "definite" causal factor 126 times out of 2897 accidents - 4.3% of the total.

Other fascinating results from the study concern pedestrian accidents - 84 per cent of fatal and serious and 75 per cent of slight pedestrian accidents were the fault of the pedestrian! Just 12 per cent and 13 per cent respectively were the fault of the driver for 'failing to avoid the pedestrian' - even these are likely to be nothing to do with speed but to inattention or failure to see the pedestrian, often on crossings.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,c.sparra
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:30 AM

Sorry John. Last week I was wishing for snow, then read about the coaches crashing in Yorkshire, and the driver dying. I felt a right git. You are so right...SLOW DOWN.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Raptor
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 12:54 PM

BUT NOT TOO MUCH!

It should be stated that going Too Slow is not good either!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 01:07 PM

Distracted drivers cause accidents, for themselves or for others. Phones and other devices in the vehicles that take your eyes and hands away from what you're doing are dangerous.

I live in a village that is an enclave of a much larger city, and we have only a few entrance/exit points. In the morning as folks head for work most of them use my street and cross the bridge next to us, reverse this at evening rush hour. A neighbor had a speed hump put down in front of their house, which works there, but means drivers try all the harder to speed up once past it. I guess I need to have one put in front of my house also. Driving in a residental neighborhood so fast that your tires squeal in the curves is nuts.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:23 PM

most "accidents" are driver error - which is why the police & ambulance/rescue people call them "crashes" and not accidents
as the term accidents implies that it is beyond the drivers control
btw I dont believe those stats Teribus, everything Ive read and seen on crash statistics indicates speed is a major factor

the evidence for that is when the US reduced highway speeds down to 55mph in the 70's the number of people killed went down dramatically,
the same happened in Australia when they brought in photo radar
(initially they made a lot of money in fines - but after a while people slowed down)

the faster you go the longer it takes to stop, and people have a limited reaction time.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Hawker
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 07:07 PM

Yeah, Don't just slow down, stay off the Damn 'phone! I have seen LOADS of people driving and talking on their mobiles, I thought it was now illegal, but perhaps like speeding, there is one law for some and another for the rest of us!
Keep safe Y'all!
Cheers,
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 03:33 AM

jOhn, the real shaker is a dead child.

Quote: There are lies, bloody lies, and statistics.
Excessive speed may be the major cause in very few crashes, but it depends on the interpretation of excessive. If you are going too fast to stop when something unforseen happens, then aren't you going too fast?

And I nearly got mopped up today on a green light, by a dozo in a 4x4 going through a red. He never even saw me or the other cars stopped on the red, just tore through with his brain in neutral. I gave way, and I was driving a small truck!

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:06 AM

In the UK, police and emergency services code in responding is RTA - Road Traffic Accident.

Personally, I'd go along wholeheartedly with Gurney's comment above regarding interpretation. The trouble with speed limits is that people get it into their heads that if they are driving within the speed limit they are driving safely - they are not - a whole raft of conditions and circumstances determine what your safe speed is, and they change continually, so the driver has to be aware of that and adjust accordingly.

I believe the purpose of the Transport Research Laboratory report was to determine where Road Safety campaigns and measures should be focused in the UK, as the evidence before them was that measures adopted under the "Speed Kills" campaign, while reducing the speed of traffic it had not reduced the number of accidents or fatalities.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,Redhorse at work
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 08:43 AM

How do you define"excessive speed" as the cause of an accident. An accident caused by a distraction at 60mph would probably not have occurred if the same distraction had happened when driving at 30mph. But distraction not speed is logged as the cause. These are subjective judgements by policemen who are as falliblein their judgementas anyone else.
BTW the "Association of British Drivers" consists of little more than 2 men and a fax machine with a couple of hundred members total, so their opinions are hardly representative.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,obnig hrobdog
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:05 PM

The same mindset that blames teenage pregnancy and STDs on sexual activity.

Get real.

And if you're going to drive, learn to drive.

It took me an hour to do a 12 minute drive today, because of the UK cold snap and hundreds of arseholes who could not decide when it was safe to speed up and when they might need to slow down.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:33 PM

Quit moaning.You got home didn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 09:07 PM

Obnig, all of us ARE real, and most of us also experienced. We got to be experienced by driving like fools, and surviving. Or promiscuous shagging, and taking the consequences, in some cases. People aren't born mature, and speaking purely personally, I've been my share of idiot. Hope you survive too.
As the flying fraternity says, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 01:34 AM

Pay Attention! Bored distracted drivers in a hurry cause most accidents... Driving is easy! So easy in fact, that we often forget how dangerous it is... and cars are so quiet, and comfy, with great stereos... and then, if that wasn't enough... CDs are tricky to take out of their cases, Rush Limbaugh is offending another caller, and the cell phone is beeping... where is that cell phone?... Hello? Oh hi honey!... You what!!! Screeeeeeeeech...

...or we could just pay attention, and relax...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 02:37 AM

Well naturally saftey is important when operating any motor vehicle. But I don't think safety is the whole story.

In the US, with the exception of the east coast, every place you drive tends to be quite far from wherever you are. Couple that with the total abandonment of trains as a mode of transportation and you have a lot of people wanting to cut down the time it takes to drive long distances. I drive 72 KM each way to a jam session each Thursday. I drive 48 KM each way to rehearsal each night in the opposite direction. Many people in my area drive well over 100 KM each way to work each day. It's 380 KM one way to visit the grandkids, 800 KM for a holiday at the lake. All told we put around 27,000 KM each year on one of our cars and over 19,000 KM each year on the other. If I lived in a large sparsely populated state like Wyoming or Montana, I'm sure those figures would be two or three times as high.

My experience and observation tracks closely with the figures quoted by Teribus above. Nearly everywhere in the US, the only driving skills you need to demonstrate in order to be licensed is to drive around a couple of city blocks at 40 KMPH or so without hitting anything and parallel park back in front of the testing office. If we licensed pilots on that basis, they'd only need to take off, do a turn around the field and land in order to be licensed to carry passengers. Clearly there'd be a lot more plane crashes.

I've thought for many years that most accidents are caused by complete incompetence on the part of one or both of the dirvers. Drivers should have practiced handling high speed slides on gravel or ice, practiced quick reactions to unpredictable situations, demonstrated the ability perform many of the maneuvers generally seen only on test tracks, and redemonstrate those skills every year or two.

When I was teaching my daughter to drive, I took her to a large empty parking lot right after a big snow storm. I had her accelerate and force slides while turning until she grasped the sensation of losing control and began to apply the correct response. I didn't think she would actually have to do that on a street or highway but I wanted her to understand how if it was needed. I didn't, however, teach her to drag race downtown at night like we all did when I was learning to drive. <g>

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:26 AM

Mark, I've had that thought too. It stands to reason that someone who has experienced a skid-pan can react much better to a skid situation than a 'safe' driver who hasn't.
Perhaps a quarantine period, allowing driving to become instinctive, followed by a skid-pan session, should come between a preliminary and a final driving test to grant a full licence.
Here in Godzone there is an 18 month period when a new driver is not allowed to drive at night nor take an unlicenced passenger, which seems to me to be well over the top, and is pretty much generally broken. a law that is broken that often must be questionable, I think.

Thomas, I agree. I never switch on the CD or radio because when I start to listen to the music, I'm not paying enough attention to the driving. I'm a bloke, I have trouble multi-tasking.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 10:46 AM

Here are my personal rules, based on years of safe driving:

1. Never trust a pedestrian. They can do anything.

2. Don't join a "pack" on the freeway. Be the isolated car.

3. Never trust a side-view mirror. Look over your shoulder.

4. When you are first at a red light, check that the way is really clear, then zip out. If you are not first, let the car before get ahead some so as to open up a space before you.

5. In the final analysis, no vehicle can deal with smooth ice.

6. Most people drive too fast. Don't.

7. Concentrate on your driving. Forget the phone, the drink, the make-up, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 04:13 PM

I have driven both ambulance and fire trucks at various times over the years--sometimes real fast. There is a single truth of which all drivers should be aware: The moment your concentration while driving drops below 100%, you become a hazard. I've responded to too many 'accident' scenes where people are seriously injured or dead because some asshole just had to dig a cigarette ember out from between his legs, or pick the garbage off the floor, or talk on the phone while negotiating as S curve, or have one for the road, or, or, or. Driving requires attention both with our vehicles and the vehicles of others around us. It is at once that simple and that complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:35 PM

"Association of British Drivers" that's bloody cheek, that name, imnplyiong they somehow represent drivers. They don't represent me, especially when they go round distorting those statistics about speed and driving.

If you are driving at a slow speed and you hit something or someone, the chances are nobody is going to get killed or seriously injured.   If you do it at high speed the chances are one or more people will be. In other words, SPEED KILLS.

That's how matter and energy work. Whether you are a driver or a lump of rock flying through space, the faster you go, the harder you hit, and the more damage you do.

And anyone who has difficulty in accepting that isn't fit to be in chagre of a skateboard, let alone a motor vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

There are many dangerous drivers on the roads.
Watch out especially for the driver of the vehicle in front of the one behind you!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 06:59 PM

I follow all of Leeneia's rules, pay attention to what I'm doing, consiously anticipate things that could happen around me. I don't follow closely, I don't hang in someone's blind spot in the next lane, I'm constantly checking my rear view mirror and generally drive about 12-15 KMPH over the posted limit. In the US, this means I get passed a lot but I don't get pulled over or run into any trouble.

It isn't speed that kills, it's that coming to sudden stop that does the damage.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 12:25 AM

Sorry folks,
Unless the statistics are only claiming accidents where people are being killed they don't wash with me. I've been the victim of several accidents and speed had nothing to do with any but one of them.

I got crunched by a lady who put her car in reverse at the gas tanks because she didn't want to wait for the guy in front of her to finish and pull off. No speed there.

One dark morning (going under the speed limit) I had to get into the right lane because a stalled car was at the light in the left. I allowed for good distance between the car in front of me and the driver behind me. As I was approaching the light a fire truck turned on its lights and siren coming from the opposite direction. While I was looking at the lights and siren (that's what they're for after all, to get your attention) the girl driving in front of me slammed on her brakes and stopped in the intersection. When I looked up she was at a dead halt in front of me. I slid into her and the driver behind slid into me. No excessive speed there, in fact I and the guy behind me were being very cautious.

Another day an old lady drove off of a shopping center parking lot without looking for traffic or obeying the double stop signs on either side of her lane. Knocked me across four lanes of traffic doing a full 540 degrees before I stopped in the lane on the other side of the road facing the opposite direction. I was just lucky there was no traffic coming in those lanes. Totalled my '68 mustang. Did I mention I was driving below the speed limit and so was she?

My fourth accident was when a little old lady turned into me from the left turn lane. I was in the right lane going through the light (hadn't reached the speed limit yet). She crossed from the turn lane (with her left turn sinal on) into the left lane and then into the right crunching my quarter panel and tearing the bumper off my pickup. No speeding there. She was just old!

My fifth was because a lady kept creeping up to 50 on a country road that was posted at 55. She'd then put on her brakes and slow to 40. This went on for some time before a passing opportunity presented itself. There were no signs to indicate that the road curved to the left or was a blind curve. I pulled in to the left lane, accelerated to 55 and attempted to pass her. Looking over to the right to pull back in I found her right next to me! I slowed to get back behind her since she didn't seem to want me to pass her, she slowed right down as well pretty much trapping me next to her in the wrong lane. I put on the brakes, so did she. I slammed on the brakes and went for the left side of the road to avoid the bus that was bearing down on me. Damn near killed me but there was actually no-one speeding before the accident.

My fifth and final accident to this date was when a punk kid ran a red light at a turn lane (I had just made the turn before the light went yellow) and tried to get to the right of me. He misjudged his turn and rubbed his car down on the side of my front bumper. Again no speeding involved.

Half the time down here in Louisiana a definite cause of the accidents is people going way too slow! I don't mean at the speed limit or slightly below but doing things like 40 MPH or less in a 70 MPH zone. They do this in the left lane with trucks in the right lane going up a bridge! Perhaps the other drivers aren't paying attention when they try to pass but they certainly wouldn't be in that position if the other drivers were at least doing near the speed limit!

Subject: RE: BS: SLOW DOWN!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:51 AM

And you came out alive from all those collisions, Chief Chaos. If they had happened when either or both of the vehicles was travelling at high speed you very likely wouldn't. The speed might not cause the accident - though it is likely to mean significantly less time to avoid it - but it sure as hell makes a difference to the amount of damage caused.

I'd like to see greatly improved speedometers, with audible warning signals when we are going over the limit, so we wouldn't need to take our eyes off the road to check, and we'd have no way of saying we hadn't realised we were going too fast. (Though anyone who can't know pretty well what speed they are doing, without looking at the clock, shouldn't really be driving.)