Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Genie Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:53 PM Thanks for that link, Q. Interesting to compare the mid-19th C. Baptist hymns with the ones I grew up hearing and singing in the mid-20th C and those that are most popular now. At least one of those 19th C. hymns is still sung, sans the chorus, in many Baptist churches. As for making the words to this old racist song more appropriate for Baptists, I'd say all you need do is change "razor blades" to "dancing shoes." Should work just fine! G |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,mcp the hasher Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM Below is the Politically-correct version of "Darkie Sunday School" which is still not appropriate for a christian church. This song was never meant for the church community and changing it otherwise would be akin to changing "There once was a man from Nantucket" to be a church song! Chorus: Young folk, old folk, Everybody come, To the country Sunday School, And we'll have lots of fun. Bring your sticks of chewing gum, And sit upon the floor, And we'll tell you Bible stories, That you never heard before. Now Adam was the first man, So we're lead to believe, He walked into the garden, And bumped right into Eve, There was no one there to show him, But he quickly found the way, And that's the very reason, Why we're singing here today. The Lord said unto Noah, "It's going to rain today," So Noah built a bloody great Ark, In which to sail away. The animals went in two by two, But soon got up to tricks, So, although they came in two by two, They came out six by six. Now Moses in the bulrushes, Was all wrapped up in swathe, Pharaoh's daughter found him, When she went down there to bathe. She took him back to Pharaoh, And said, "I found him on the shore" And Pharaoh winked his eye and said, "I've heard that one before." King Solomon and King David, Lived most immoral lives, Spent their time a-chasing, After other people's wives. The Lord spoke unto both of them, And it worked just like a charm, 'Cos Solomon wrote the Proverbs, And David wrote the Psalms. Now Samson was an Israelite, And very big and strong, Delilah was a Philistine, Always doing wrong. They spent a week together, But it didn't get very hot, For all he got was short back and sides, And a little bit off the top. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Andrew Nelson Date: 03 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM This is one of my childhood street songs (Glasgow, Scotland, 1940 - 50). The chorus ran: "Young folks, old folks, everybody come, Join the Darkies' Sunday School and make yourself at home. Buy a stick of chewing gum and sit upon the floor And we'll tell you bible stories that you never heard before." ... and the verses I remember :- Now Moses was the leader of a large and mighty flock, He tried to get some water from the middle of a rock But when the rock was opened, there rose a mighty cheer, For, instead of flowing water it was Tennents' Lager Beer! Esau was a farmer in the wild and woolly west, His father gave him half the ranch, his brother got the rest. Esau thought this funny and so very queer That he swapped the whole caboodle for a whisky and a beer. While Tennents beer is brewed in Glasgow, 'caboodle' is hardly a Scottish word, and the reference to the wild and woolly west leads me to believe that 'my' version is a street version of the original gospel song, and may have been brought over by American servicemen during WW2. While I wouldn't use the term 'darkie' now, in those more innocent days it was perfectly acceptable in a society in which 99% of the population were Scots or of Irish descent and the remainder English. Where we had to be very careful was in our dealings with others who were 'on the other side', ie the great Catholic/Protestant divide - it was almost literally a divide; until I was 12, I knew more Jews than I did Catholics, inasmuch as there was a Jewish girl in my class at school. I left the city 50 years ago and understand that things are better now. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 03 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM McGrath said: "But this Black Baptist Church, White Baptist Church, Black Methodist Church, White Methodist Church bit is somewhat weird isn't it?" Three years ago I was traveling through rural Virginia on a Sunday morning near 11 AM. Two churches stood back to back on what seemed to be the same plot of land. Both churches were Baptist and people were entering each for the morning service. All entering one were white and all entering the other were black. There were also two cemeteries there as well. I wondered at the time if they expected to be separated in Heaven as they were on earth! |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM Andrew, another version of Glasgow Sunday School posted in thread 13087. Sunday School |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: robomatic Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:37 PM Is this to the same tune as the Captain's pet monkey washing up on the shore in Hartleypool? "Young folks, old folks, everyone on feet, come and see the frenchy that's landed on the beach 'e's got long arms, a great long tail, and he's covered down in hair we think that 'e's a spy so we'll 'ang 'im in the square!" This is very UN PC towards the French, but it's a rollicking good song! |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:36 PM Yes Robomatic, it's the same tune as the Hartlepool monkey song, but I think the first line is everyone and each... Kitty |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Cuilionn Date: 04 Jan 10 - 11:03 AM Sheena Wellington has this one as "The Little Sunday School" on her STRONG WOMEN album (Greentrax CDTRAX 094). The album is a live recording at the Nitten Folk Club and the audience response to this particular song is very enthusiastic, with hoots, cheers, and wild applause at the end--no tepid response for a "cleaned up" version here! In the liner notes, she writes, "a short version of a very long song learned in early childhood from my father...It has several variants in the UK and North America. I have always believed God has a sense of humour!" Here are the lyrics as she sings them: Young folk, old folk, everybody come to our little Sunday School and you shall have some fun Bring your toffee apples and sit down upon the floor And we'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before! Adam was the first man so we all believe One morning he was filleted and introduced to Eve He had no-one to tell him but he soon found out the way And that's the only reason we're all living here today! Esau was a hunter with a very hairy chest His chest it was so hairy he'd no need to wear a vest His father left him property not far away from Norwich But the damn fool went and swapped it for a basinful of porridge. Jonah was a traveller with a tendency to sail He went and booked his passage on a Transatlantic whale The atmospheric pressure got too heavy for his chest So Jonah pushed the button and the whale did all the rest. Pharoah had a daughter with a very winning smile She found the infant Moses in the rushes by the Nile She took him home to her papa who said he believed her tale It was just about as probable as Jonah and the whale. Moses was a prophet of the Israeletic stock With his mighty umbrel he struck water from the rock The multitude around him, they gave a mighty cheer But they were disappointed when they found it wasn't beer. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Colin Date: 04 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM Interesting thread, and still going. I remember singing this in sessions in the Kings Arms, Bangor, N Wales and this is how it was given to me by the singer, Derek Froome of Cheshire: The Darkies' Sunday School This may be in print, possibly in a Song Book issued by Hackney (London) Scouts, who were famous for their singing between the wars: no further suggestions. I learnt it orally from several sources. Those who have no feeling for blason populaire may cavil at the title, & the use of the term in the chorus: let them corrode in corners: we know what we mean, & what we do not mean. Chorus Old folks, young folks, everbody come, Join the darkies' Sunday School & make yourselves at home: Bring your sticks of chewing gum, sit down upon the floor, And we'll tell you bible stories that you never heard before. Sung as an introduction, & between each verse. May also be used after the last verse has been sung by the singer, or after additions by bystanders, which should be carefully recorded, together with variants. I usually begin with Adam for 'historical' reasons, but the rest usually come as remembered rather than as a true chronological series. Chacun a son gout. Punctuation omitted. Oh Adam was the first man, & he lived all alone Till Eve was manufactured out of his left funny-bone Then old Adam had no cause to fret & grieve For he flirted all day long in the Garden of Eden with Eve Esau was a cowboy from the wild & woolly west His father gave him half the farm, his brother Jake the rest But Esau didn't like it, the title deeds weren't clear So he swapped the whole caboodle for a sandwich & a beer Goliath was a strong man, a mighty man of power Whose head was on a level with the top of Blackpool tower He swanked about an awful lot & swore he'd never die Till David came with half a brick & hit him in the eye. Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego They none of them could please the King, so of course they had to go He put them in the furnace to burn them up like chaff But they wore asbestos underpants & gave the King the laugh Job was a patriarch who suffered many toils He wrote a book to tell us he was covered all in boils But when the Jewish doctors had given up all hope Job went and cured himself with Cuticura Soap Solomon & David lived most immoral lives They used to gad about the place with other people's wives But when they got to middle age they suffered from the qualms One of them wrote The Proverbs & the other wrote The Psalms Elijah was a prophet of very great renown He ran a travelling circus which he took from town to town He worked a lot of magic on a Sunday afternoon And went up in the evening in a patent fire-balloon Ruth was a flapper of a very modern type She often smoked Wild Woodbines & at other times a pipe Her skirts were of the shortest & she often 'gave the glad' Till the Salvation Army came & saved her from the bad Jehu had a chariot of seven horse-power He used to dash about the place at ninety miles an hour But he had to put the brakes on when going through Jezreel For little bits of Jezebel were sticking to the wheel Samson was a boxer of the Jackie Johnson school He slew ten thousand Philistines with the jawbone of a mule But a lassie called Delilah came & filled him up with gin And when she'd shaved his whiskers off the Peelers ran him in Only partially known or remembered Moses was the leader of the Israelitish flock They hadn't any water ..?. rock Moses didn't like it so he gave the rock a smite And out came flowing Buchanan's Black & White Joseph was a dreamer who suffered from swelled head He used to wear jazz pullovers in yellow, green & red ... [much desired] Cain & Abel... Cain wasn't able so Abel got the cane [final line] |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Jody Date: 16 May 10 - 08:02 PM When I learned it, it was: "Young folks, old folks, everybody come Join the happy Sunday School and have a lot of fun. Please check your chewing gum and checkers at the door, We're gonna tell you Bible stories that you never heard before." I didn't know so many verses existed. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Ann Date: 14 Mar 12 - 05:01 AM We've changed the title to The Monday Sunday School and adapted the chorus and some of the verses My Dad's version is now considered politically incorrect so will not repeat it here as it is a version of what is here already. He too altered bits to make it less offensive but it would now be considered so. My altered version to fit in with an 'old folks get together held on a Monday'. Young Folks, Old folks everybody come Join the Monday Sunday School and make yourselves at home Bring your sticks and walking frames, find welcome at the dioor And I'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Mo the caller Date: 14 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM I don't think you can remove the offensiveness of this song by changing odd words. It's not Baptist /Darky /razors /...., it's the whole nudge,nudge,wink,wink approach to Bible stories that would offend anyone who held them dear. I am no longer a believer, but I still find it distasteful. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST Date: 21 Sep 15 - 09:27 PM I think I have a contemporary substitute that will fit just fine: "Kindly check your chewing gum and cell phones that the door" |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,ahknowu Date: 15 Apr 17 - 12:52 AM I find this"thead amazing; l learned it in 1954...never once considered it racist. We learned it at MYF - never any specific race or religion noted. I recently changed the chorus to "please park your cell phones and I-pads at the door ....................... |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Apr 17 - 02:03 AM Well, it's hard for a song titled "Darkies' Sunday School" NOT to be offensive. The song has been euphemized to other things. That's happened to The Cat Came Back, Short'nin' Bread, and many others. Is it OK to sing songs that come from racist roots? I think it's a valid question with a not-so-clear answer. That being said, I do sing "The Cat Came Back," "Short'nin' Bread," and Old Black Joe. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 15 Apr 17 - 07:20 AM Baptists or worse are nutty as a fruitcake anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Bonzo3legs Date: 15 Apr 17 - 07:42 AM Some people obviously have nothing better to do than pontificate on behalf of others who most likely couldn't give a monkeys about it!!! |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Mo the caller Date: 15 Apr 17 - 09:05 AM "I don't think you can remove the offensiveness of this song by changing odd words. It's not Baptist /Darky /razors /...., it's the whole nudge,nudge,wink,wink approach to Bible stories that would offend anyone who held them dear. I am no longer a believer, but I still find it distasteful." I notice no-one has replied to my 5 year old comment. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Mo the caller Date: 15 Apr 17 - 09:09 AM Bit like an Anglican vicar in a Ceilidh band that I called with who had a habit of asking everyone to join in the chorus of John Barleycorn, sung to the tune of We Plough the Fields & Scatter, when we were playing for harvest Ceilidhs. It really didn't go down well at the Salvation Army. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Kenny B (inactive) Date: 15 Apr 17 - 06:05 PM Glasgow Sunday School has been on youtube for 6 years and nobody has complained |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Apr 17 - 06:53 PM Colin gives a nice selection of lyrics up above (click). As somebody who spent 8 years in seminary, the verses just seem cute to me. I don't see them as offensive at all, Mo. I do concede that some might take offense at the derivation from "Darkies' Sunday School." But many songs from racist times, used racist terms with no intention of being hateful. I think those songs can be cleaned up and used without causing offense to anyone but the most sensitive people. -Joe- There's a nice rendition of "Mormon Sunday School" here: |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 18 Apr 17 - 07:55 AM For those who might want the song to be offensive . . . maybe we need an update. Salome was a dancer who did the hootchie-kootch She wasn't very modest and she didn't wear too mooch [much] (As) the king's erotic dancer she spurned the wedding bed. The boys agreed that all Salome ever wants is 'head'. The update also fits the original story better! |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,thedina Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:12 PM I learned this song as a young kid with most of my cousins (10 +) cold winter nights while my Grandmother Nanny played by ear what she could remember (at the time all of it). Thank you for this thread. I could not remember the name, but could remember the chewing gum and razor blades at the door. I think she called it the Baptist Sunday school song. My parents I assume would have said something to end the singing if it had been in the original form. Music was a big part of that side of my family. Can't wait to see my mom's reaction when I start playing this tune. Yes, I'll bring up to date lyrics. I've searched for just over 15 years for this song. thank you for the links, lyrics, and wonderful conversation around the changing social atmosphere and songs lyrics. :) |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST Date: 02 Dec 17 - 08:58 PM When my mother sang it, it was "Darky Sunday School", which is, of course, offensive, Darky being a term for African Americans. I've also heard it sung as Mormon Sunday School. I wrote my own version of the chorus: Young folks old folks everybody come Come into the TV room and make yourself to home. We'll watch the televangelist, he's on on Channel Four. And you'll hear some Bible stories like you never heard before. This might offend televangelists. But I really don't care. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST Date: 03 Dec 17 - 05:03 AM David was a General, Uriah was a Sub David saw Uriah's wife in her evening tub David sent Uriah to explore a front line trench Uriah got the hand grenade and David got the wench. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 04 Dec 17 - 06:05 AM My racist father used to sing just the chorus to me:- Old folks, young folks, everybody come. Join the darkies' Sunday School and make yourselves at home. Bring your sticks of chewing gum and sit upon the floor, And I'll tell you Bible stories that you've never heard before. Two points: One obviously didn't 'check in' the chewing gum but chewed it in situ so to speak. And although the 'darkies' bit is racist and offensive, I personally feel that more offensive still is the implication that the 'darkies' distorted the Bible stories and made fun of them. The inference was that their church was ridiculous and unworthy of respect. In those days (very early fifties) there was a general feeling round our way that 'darkies' were inferior, rather amusing and objects of fun. Not a nice view... |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: leeneia Date: 06 Dec 17 - 11:18 AM In the 1960's my sister brought this song home from a Lutheran camp. It didn't have any label for the Sunday school, and given the tune, a label wouldn't go in naturally. Young folks, old folks, everybody come. Come to our Sunday school and have a lot of fun... Later I encountered the tune in folk-dance class. It sounded 19th-Century, may have been a schottisch. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Donuel Date: 06 Dec 17 - 09:20 PM Protecting the myth and mythos of a religion is a personal decision. But I am about to say the obvious. This time with regards to "no hate intended" and cleaning up lyrics (changing history) changing the people posthumously and lying to make a current legacy to be something it wasn't and isn't. Obviously one should not sanitize the archives yet we will always have evolving songs. Somehow the original should be referenced. You folks have done a great job of preservation. I say this at a time when honesty and facts are challenged unto archaic obscurity in the US. of course it is rare for even 2 people to agree on what is truth. Mudcat is cherished for the truth it preserves. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: leeneia Date: 08 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM Why assume lyrics have been cleaned up, sanitized or bowdlerized. Maybe they were pleasant to start with and some smart alec changed them to be mean or bigoted. It happens all the time. Many so-called parodies are nasty. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST Date: 08 Dec 17 - 11:22 AM On words being offensive we once had a complaint when playing across the pond at a rather well known Canadian festival. The song in question was Waxies Dargle. The offending verse was the second: Says my aul' wan to your aul' wan "Will ye go to the Galway races?" Says your aul' wan to my aul' wan, "I'll hawk me aul' man's braces. I went up to Capel Street To the Jewish moneylenders But he wouldn't give me a couple of bob For the aul' man's red suspenders." This Dublin song written sometime in the nineteenth century was a children's song and by the time we performed it had been in existence for over a hundred years at least. We told those who brought the complaint to us to basically eff-off and that we would not change the words of a song to suit political correctness, the song is "Traditional" and would only be performed by us in it's original form. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Dec 17 - 03:49 PM Leeneia, I think it's clear that "Baptist Sunday School" is a bowdlerization of "Darkies' Sunday School," which certainly seems racist to me. -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 09 Dec 17 - 04:07 AM "I personally feel that more offensive still is the implication that the 'darkies' distorted the Bible stories and made fun of them. The inference was that their church was ridiculous and unworthy of respect." The only place I have ever heard this song sung was at a Boy Scouts campfire singsong and the title was Darkies Sunday School. The chorus if I remember correctly went: Young folks, old folks, everybody come Join the darkies Sunday school Bring your sticks of chewing gum And squat upon the floor And we'll tell you Bible stories That you've never heard before The bible stories contained in the verses were humorous and bawdy and certainly not the sort of thing you would hear in any Presbyterian Church in Scotland - far from making fun of "them" and disrespecting "their" church (Whatever that might mean - an Anglican Church, is an Anglican Church, is an Anglican Church irrespective of who walks through it's doors - but nobody can prevent people taking offence if that is what they deliberately set out to do) it is obviously sung from the perspective of a member of this Sunday School ("and WE'LL tell you) and makes the point that attendance is fun, informal and a thoroughly enjoyable experience, which Sunday School in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland most definitely was not in my young days. So if anything we sang the song to have a dig at "our" church (Note: Boy Scout Troops were all affiliated to specific Churches in Scotland when I was growing up - hence the connection). |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Lighter Date: 09 Dec 17 - 12:41 PM > we would not change the words of a song to suit political correctness, the song is "Traditional" and would only be performed by us in it's original form. Then why sing it at all? If you're only doing it for fun, the alteration of one word would make no difference. The point isn't whether the line was offensive to Irish Christians 100 years ago, it's whether it's offensive to a general audience in the modern world - and why you don't care. Also, please explain what you mean by "political correctness," In this case, we're talking about simple respect for your presumably unbigoted audience. Are you careful never to change even a single word in any of the trad songs you perform? |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 09 Dec 17 - 01:23 PM To respond to your comments Lighter. The song Waxies Dargle had been in the bands repertoire for over 11 years and the lead singer on that particular song was a native born Dubliner - he sang it the way he had heard it from a very early age. Why not change it you suggest - the thin end of the wedge and the top of a very slippery slope. As a band that performed at a number of festivals, we have never canvassed either festival organisers, or festival audiences on their likes and preferences in order to avoid offence - that is totally impracticable. We introduce our songs, tell the age of the song and where they are from. If the audience who turn up at folk festivals think that they might be offended by the lyrics of an old song then they are clearly not interested in folk music and are obviously at the wrong festival. Perhaps Jim Carroll could explain it better than I can. Dublin street songs and such-like from all over the place represent little uncensored vignettes of social, cultural and political history. As such they should not be altered. Were there Jewish moneylenders in Capel Street in Dublin at the time the song was written? Yes there were. Did the poor of Dublin resort to these moneylenders when short of cash? Yes they did. To change the lyrics diminishes the song. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Jeri Date: 09 Dec 17 - 03:47 PM If you sing for an audience, you have to be aware who they are. Singing racist lyrics is only going to reflect on you. If you're willing to wear the reputation, sing them. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 09 Dec 17 - 07:32 PM "I went up to Capel Street To the Jewish moneylenders" Is a statement of fact - money lending was their business. What do we do about Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice"? What do we do about Charles Dickens "Oliver Twist"? Are either authors banned for being "rascist"? Or should their works be amended to suit whoever might be sitting in the audience of any stage or screen production or anyone who might walk into a bookshop or library? The answer is, of course no they should not. The lyrics of a song dating from a similar period deserve the same degree of respect. I would like to know how, as a touring band playing at festivals to multi-national audiences ranging from 3000 to 5000 in number, you can "be aware who they are" having arrived on the day and playing two slots then departing to your next engagement. Perhaps a thread on censorship in folk music and the arts would be a good idea. The subject of many old songs serve as examples of means whereby censorship of the day was circumvented in order to give the "other sides" view of events. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: meself Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:09 PM You know - this may surprise - but this very subject has actually been broached before on this very forum. I wouldn't say it's been raised countless times - but it's been raised on more than one or two or even three occasions. And, while I wouldn't say it's been flogged to death, I daresay it's been given more than a couple of love-taps. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Lighter Date: 09 Dec 17 - 08:21 PM To say a slope is "slippery" in a case like this says more about us than about the "slope." When a policy reaches the point of absurdity, we can recognize it and change the policy. The opposite view is that we have no judgment whatsoever. And it *is* all a matter of judgment. If someone doesn't care about making a good part of their audience very uncomfortable (rather than a tiny handful) while encouraging bigotry (inadvertently, I assume), it really is their right. Likewise it's the right of others to suggest they do otherwise. Moneylending was the business of some Jews. Nothing offensive about the fact. But to emphasize their Jewishness gratuitously in the song emphasizes their "otherness" from the singer and his or her audience, and reminds everyone that "Jewish moneylending" has been a big propaganda point for bigots for centuries. While "The Merchant of Venice" indeed offends some people today, the fact remains that it's a more substantial work of art that's far more substantial than "The Waxies' Dargle," with plenty more in it to talk about, including just how we're supposed to interpret Shylock, who, unlike the moneylenders in the song, is a fully developed human being rather than a mere throwaway line. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Jeri Date: 09 Dec 17 - 10:51 PM I would like to know how, as a touring band playing at festivals to multi-national audiences ranging from 3000 to 5000 in number, you can "be aware who they are" having arrived on the day and playing two slots then departing to your next engagement. You could ask a festival organizer or some other person if the audience is fond of racist lyrics or not. You're probably safe with ethnomusicologists, or if the event is being hosted by white supremicists, or if they're likely to be too drunk to pay attention to lyrics. Otherwise, newsflash: most people in the US don't appreciate songs containing anachronistic racial slurs. There. Now you know. You're welcome. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Dec 17 - 01:41 AM I don't think that "Darkies' Sunday School" is inherently racist - as long as we do something to get rid of that one word "darkies." There are lots of songs from the past that contain offensive elements. If you can remove those elements in a way that is not obviously prudish, you can end up with a good song. "The Cat Came Back" is a good example. "Short'nin' Bread" is another, as are some of the Stephen Collins Foster songs. But if bowdlerize we must, we need to do it in a subtle manner. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 10 Dec 17 - 03:22 AM "You could ask a festival organizer or some other person if the audience is fond of racist lyrics or not." Hilarious Jeri. Tell me how often in everyday life do you wander about asking about other people, complete strangers, permission to do things? How often do you, in asking for that permission, do you ask them questions framed in such a way that their answer would be a foregone conclusion. As usual what appears to be lacking is a sense of perspective. I do not view Waxies Dargle as being a "racist" song in any way. It humorously describes everyday life of the poor in Dublin in the mid to late 19th century. Staying with perspective. Consider that the countless number of times throughout the previous eleven years and since that the song has been performed resulted in no complaints at all leads me to dismiss Lighter's, "matter of judgment. If someone doesn't care about making a good part of their audience very uncomfortable". In the instance I mentioned from experience the festival was huge and our attention was drawn to ONE complaint, the complainant was, of course, not identified but why is it automatically assumed that it came from a member of the audience? It could equally have come from one of the other performers. As to multi-racial and multi-national communities identifying various groups, it is I find most commonly used in the USA. I have often heard people from the USA qualify the "type" of American they are by rather unnecessarily stating that they are Hispanic Americans, Afro-Americans, Irish-Americans. Another Dublin Street Song, "The Maid of Cabra West", second verse: "Now he was a nasty piece of goods Gonzales was his name And he couldn't wait till he got his hands On Concepta - who was me dame! So I made a vow by the Grand Canal That I would do him in 'Cos I didn't think much of them Portugees And in particular - I didn't like him!" The last verse: Now it's all for the love this fair young maid And her Portugee sailor boy For me crime of passion, I've landed in Mountjoy. And if ever I get out of here, My life I'll change you'll see I'll marry some Mot from the Liberties Who wouldn't look at no Portugee" It is a very funny song brought to prominence by the singing of Frank Harte, but prior to any rendition the audience is warned that, if it had been penned today it would be considered the most "politically incorrect" song ever written. Fact is - it was NOT penned today - Dublin no longer hosts a community of working Portuguese fishermen - their, by now completely assimilated, descendants still live and work in the city where the song is often heard without complaint. Going back to Waxies Dargle. If Shane MacGowan and the Pogues saw fit to sing the song "unabridged", then I do not see any reason why we should do any different. Good enough for them, good enough for us. As stated previously. There nothing anybody can do about certain people who go out and attend any social gathering looking for offence - they will find it. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Guest akenaton Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM I must say that I fully agree with Guest Observer, who makes an excellent point regarding the fact that we are discussing traditional music. Most traditional music involves proportioning "blame" for the worlds ills on certain sections of society, certain behaviours or certain races. If we like jeri suggests, attempt to censor what has been written and sung, often for centuries, to placate contemporary sensibilities, we may as well dump traditional music in the proverbial dustbin and move on to the rewriting of literature. Thence on to the burning of books, instruments, performers......and finally to the real final solution.......the end of freedom of expression. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Guest akenaton Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:41 AM Forgot to mention, the "Darkies Sunday School" song goes back a least to the revival and probably much further......There was a Glasgow version sung in the clubs of the late 50's and 60's, before Irish traditional music became popular in the UK. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 10 Dec 17 - 06:47 PM Having looked through this thread, and the thread "Offensive lyrics- edit?" the one thing that becomes obvious is that while the songs I have mentioned are "folk songs" leaning towards the "Traditional" that are performed - The Baptist/Darkies Sunday School cannot be similarly described, or put up as a candidate for serious thought. In a thread below the line Jim Carroll once provided the lyrics of an extremely offensive and racist song by way of an illustrative example. The maximum audience that this song was ever performed to was 46 and in that particular group it was a case of the songwriter preaching to the choir. Doesn't matter how offensive the lyrics of a song are, if the song is never sung, there is simply no exposure of the material for it to do any harm. I have never heard the Baptist/Darkies Sunday School performed or sang by anyone at any sing around, singer's session, folk club, concert or festival - no exposure, no oxygen to give it any traction - and just to make it abundantly clear I would never ever consider learning that particular song let alone perform it. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 17 - 05:42 AM Observer says: Tell me how often in everyday life do you wander about asking about other people, complete strangers, permission to do things? I would imagine that if a performer has been booked for a performance at a venue, there must have been some personal contact in the process of booking. If the performer wants to do a song that's a bit "iffy," it seems realistic and reasonable to ask the venue contact how the audience might react. I would consider this to be asking for information, not for permission. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 11 Dec 17 - 08:59 AM In most cases with bookings especially for festivals the organisers have heard us before, in the case of the Canadian festival the story was about we had sent them a "live" CD. So as far as the organisers were concerned, as they did decide to book us, they obviously thought our material, standard of performance and audience reception to be of an acceptable standard. At a large international festival with those who make up the audiences coming from far and wide how on earth would the "organisers" be able to tell what might offend? Where does the "If a performer wants to do a song that's a bit "iffy" come from? The song, internationally known and fairly widely performed had been sung many, many times, for years with no complaint whatsoever. So it is obvious that we didn't, and even now, I do not, find the song "a bit "iffy" The only occasions where we have ever had to submit set lists complete with lyrics for approval have been where, as part of a festival a concert is played in a consecrated church in some countries in Europe - we've never had any problem there either. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Jeri Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:27 AM It's "iffy" in the US, unless people understand you're preserving the historical integrity of the song, and not trying to present something that might not be verbally relevant today. We've had this discussion so many times. The bottom line is, sing what you like and those hearing you will decide if they like it, or you. It's no one else's responsibility. |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 11 Dec 17 - 12:26 PM There is zero chance one can honestly represent this song as anything other than a "coon shout." It's roots (the comedic lecture ie: Locomotive ? Bulgine Lecture) go back to the very beginnings of American minstrelsy - Stephen Foster's De History Ob De World, 1847. Updated as Bible Stories in 1903 by the Queen of the Coon Shout herself, Canadian May Irwin (Mrs. Black is Back). The Irwin sisters picked up where the Western Sisters left off in American minstrelsy. May Irwin was nearing the end of her career here and so was minstrelsy. She did not perform in corkface but Irwin did more to promote the "razor totin' bull nigger" stereotype than anyone that comes to mind (eg: The Bully Song). Better change those bits as well hmmm? She was as popular in England as America, so it's no surprise the song made the jump across the pond as it did. Probably the last real minstrelsy "superstar." As Modernist-v-Fundamentalist mudslinging, the lyrics, at the time, would be more daring for their sacrilege than racism, (conservative Baptists & Presbyterians hate them!) I think "Darkies" got moved to the title proper by Kentuckian "Blind" Charlie Oaks (The Oaks Family), Adam and Eve or "Darkies' Sunday School", Vocalion, 15342, 1927. fyi: Other Oaks titles on Vocalion included The Death Of William Jennings Bryan & The John T. Scopes Trial. One can put lipstick on a pig... |
Subject: ADD: History Ob De World (Augustus Clapp) From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:00 PM Thanks for the lead, Phil. I didn't find any tie to Stephen C. Foster, though. I did find lyrics to "History" here: HISTORY OB DE WORLD (Augustus Clapp) [Verse 1] I am right from Old Wirginny, Wid my head fill ob knowledge, I have neber been to private school, Nor any odder college; Oh! I can tell you one thing, It is a solemn fact, I will sing de hist'ry ob de world in de twinkling ob de crash; Den walk in! Walk in! walk in I Pray, Oh walk into the parlor boys And hear the banjo play; Oh walk in to the parlor boys And hear de banjo ring, And watch de niggars fingers While de pay upon de strings [Verse 2] This world of mud from the bottom of the river, And the sons of all foc fire as you may diskiver, The moon is made of cheese, and it always keeps a gwine, But the sun stands still while the world keeps flying. [Verse 3] Dey first made the earth and den dey made the sky, And den dey hung it up above and left it dar to dry, Den dey made the stars out of niggar wenches eyes, To give a little light when the moon don't rise. [Verse 4] So Adam was the first man, Ebe was de tudder, Dey put cain on the troddin mill, because he kill his broder, Sampson was a strong man, nor wasn't countol lazy, Case he took an asses jaw bone and sle de gates ob Gazy [Verse 5] Massa Jonah was a sassage maker, Thusula built the ark Julecum Ceasar was a fisherman, what swallowed down a shark, De highest mountain in the world is Pompey's famous pillar, And the gratest man that ever lives was jack the giant killer. [Verse 6] And dare was major Noah got the varmints all together, Because it gan to look very much like rainy weather, The elephant it came last and Noah says your drunk, Oh no I an't, it took me all the while to pack my trunk. [Verse 7] Noah built the ark and he filled it full of sassage, And all the animals had to take a cabin passage, It rained forty days and nights, exactly by the counting, And it landed Noah's ark on the Alegany mountains. [Verse 8] There was a wicked sinner and Dagon they did call him, Case Noah wouldn't let him in he said he meant to maul him, He made a rush and stubbed his toe and fell against the ark, His head was like a Codfish and his tail was like a shark. Recommended Citation Clapp, Augustus, "History ob de World" (1847). Historic Sheet Music Collection. 851. http://digitalcommons.conncoll.edu/sheetmusic/851 Sheet Music available at the Library of Congress: |
Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive? From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Dec 17 - 09:19 PM All I found was an excerpt of May Irwin's "Bible Stories":
Den dey made de sky; Den dey hung it overhead And lef' it dere to dry. Den dey made the stars out of niggers' wenches eyes, Just to give a little light When de moon she doesn't rise. https://books.google.com/books?id=Qs0ZDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT102&lpg=PT102 Maybe that's the whole thing. Here's the song from page 8 of May Irwin's Home Cooking (1904) LIVE HUMBLE The world was made in six days; Then they made the sky; Then they hung it overhead, And left it there to dry; Then they made the stars Out of nigger wenches' eyes, Just to give a little light When the moon she didn't rise. That one makes me cringe. "Nigger wenches' eyes" is shockingly strong to me, reeking of both racism and violence. -Joe- |
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