BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives

Subject: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: GUEST,About Time
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 09:25 AM

Looking forward to the upcoming week in New York, where the anti-globalization demonstrations may or may not be tolerated. Either way, the following LA Times article suggests bad news for US conservatives, and good news for the regular folk and the planet:

College freshmen more liberal, less apathetic, poll finds Los Angeles Times Published Jan 28 2002 More college freshmen today describe themselves as politically liberal than at any time since the Vietnam War, according to a nationwide survey by researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles.

A resurgence of liberalism among the freshmen also is reflected in their attitudes on a range of political and social issues, according to survey results released today.

"It's a real change, a broad-based trend toward greater liberalism on almost every issue we look at," said Alexander Astin, an education professor at UCLA who started the survey, the nation's largest, in 1966.

The researchers measured liberalism by asking students to describe their political views and take positions on certain benchmark issues.

For instance, a record percentage -- 57.9 percent -- think gay couples should have the legal right to marry. The highest portion in two decades -- 32.2 percent -- say the death penalty should be abolished. And more than one-third -- the highest rate since 1980 -- say marijuana should be legalized, although 75 percent also say employers should be allowed to require drug tests of workers and applicants.

Still, about half of the class' members, in line with their recent predecessors, view themselves as "middle of the road" politically. And 20.7 percent consider themselves conservative or "far right," while 29.9 percent -- the highest figure since 1975 -- say they are liberal or "far left."

The latter figure has risen steadily since 1996, said Linda Sax, an education professor and director of the most recent survey. But it pales compared with the peak year in 1971, at the height of the anti-Vietnam War fervor, when 40.9 percent of those polled called themselves liberal.

The American Freshman Survey, based this year on responses from 281,064 students at 421 four-year colleges and universities, is the nation's oldest and most comprehensive assessment of student attitudes. It is a joint project of UCLA's Higher Education Research Institute and the American Council on Education, based in Washington, D.C.

Freshmen usually fill out questionnaires during orientation or the first week of classes, so their answers often reflect more on their high school experiences..

Almost all of this year's forms were completed before Sept. 11, so any changes in student attitudes as a result of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would be reflected in next year's results, survey directors said.

Among the more striking findings of this year's poll was a reversal in a long slide toward political apathy on college campuses, probably attributable to the 2000 presidential contest, Sax said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 11:57 AM

Just a reality check here, none of the "benchmark" issues really have anything to do with political conservatism, which is a view that involves the idea that government regulation, management, and intervention ought to be kept at a minimum, because they impinge on the rights of the individual to live and work as he or she chooses--

Most Americans, right, left, and center, embrace "conservative" social political and economic ideas to some degree-- The objections to the conservative political position are that it really only serves the special interests of the individuals and organizations that support it, and that it seeks to re-establish an elitist(and, by implication, racist) social and economic structure--

These ideas are, of course, a matter for debate--

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM

M.Ted, good point, but of course, in this context, that is not really what "conservative" refers to, except for the last bit about recreating an elitist society.

I am glad to hear this about young people and hope that it continues.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM

What conservative small c has traditionally implied is being sceptical about change, and tending to resist it. That was why in Russia unreconstructed communists have rightly been termed "conservative".

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 02:00 AM

Having allegedly conservative views, and being willing to act on them at some risk to one's self are vastly different things.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:22 AM

Back in the Pleistocene, when I was in school, the textbook said conservative meant holding to the status quo and prefering standard solutions to standard problems while liberals want to 'improve' things and find new solutions because they didn't think the old ones worked. The language has undoubtly evolved a lot since 1961, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:30 AM

I wouldn't bet on it misophist. Retro and Regressive is very trendy these days, especially among the RRR--Reformed Reagan Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:19 PM

"...bad news for US conservatives, and good news for the regular folk and the planet..."

Which, we are to assume, means "Good people and life on planet Earth as we know it VERSUS conservatives".

I think it's pretty obvious where this one is going.

Having said that, MAV and I really appreciate all of this social activisim having gravitated, for the most part, into appropriate threads where as it had previously seemed to permieate nearly every discussion on the Mudcat, and any hint of deviation from the "PC" manifesto anywhere was sure to invite a barrage of vitriol and disdain from the majority.
There seems to be a renewed spirit of respect, tolerance, and civility on the regular "Music" threads these days, and we both enjoy and appreciate that!

Definitions do mean a lot, to be sure. I wonder if anyone stopped to inquire of those young, idealistic Frosh just what theirs was of "Conservatisim" vs. "Liberalisim"?
Do we suppose that those definitions (or ignorance thereof) might have anything to do with the endoctrination recieved within the National system of Public Government factory enforced-monopoly (at least for the socioeconomically disadvantaged, that is; the Politicians who make the rules for us little folk DO have an educational option for their children, and typically excersize it)"Schools"?

Or could the constant drivel of agenda - filtered spin emi8nating from Komrades Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, or the other flagrantly biased "talking heads" on the TV kids are exposed to at home have anything to do with it?
Even the "Entertainment" Industry is careful to stir a heaping measure of PC "values" and role-modeling into their glitzy "product" for youthful consumption.
Conservative is NOT at all "cool", is it?
If you can find a "Conservative" kid in one of America's public Endoctrination Centers who knows what that means and has the gutz to admit it, I would be surprised if he or she has many friends there... Except maybe in Nebraska, Georgia, or other "flyover" country.

Karl Marx apparantly suggested some time ago that in order for Socializim to subjegate the "free" world, particularly Europe and America, that our educational, informational, and entertainment institutions must be infiltrated and control of them gradually seized. That being accomplished, the rest of the culture, it's government and institutions, would fall to the reaping sicle and bend to the relentless hammer of Communisim within two or three generations.

Darned if the old boy wasn't on to something! It seems to have worked pretty much as he anticipated that it would.

OK; here's the "bad news" for you "progressives" out there who want us to turn in our guns, surrender our Bibles and kiss your Communist butts for permisssion to leave town and visit our Families on occasion (like they do in China); Some of us "Conservatives" are "on to" Marx, Lennin, Stalin, and Yoo-All, too!

How have Komrade Dan's ratings and advertizing clients' offers been doing lately? ABC? CNN? And let's not forget your ever-loyal font of liberal propoganda, the New York Times?
My, my; it seems that quite a number of "good folks" in America have discovered "alternative" information sources, like FOX News, Rush Limbaugh, Free Republic... the internet! How do their ratings compare? Care to check, anybody?

This latest attempt by the "beautiful people" to villify President "W" and tack the ENRON scandal on him and Cheney; it ain't sticking, fellas! There is some evidence that it might even be ready to "backfire" in the faces of Tom Daschele, Dick Gepardt, and Ice-Queen Hillary. Wage-earning, tax-paying, law-abiding Americans are starting to recognize bullhooey when they smell it, and it's not selling nearly as well as it used to.

The "Sheeople" are catching on, Komrades... and the flock is getting restless!
Even your loyal Labor-Union Membership showed signs of cracking. We have it on good authority that a lot of Union Members are also NRA Members, and when "crunch time" came in Nov. of 2K, a lot of them quietly chose "W" and Freedom over the "approved" status-quo!

Truth, Knowledge, Faith and Freedom are among Socializim's worst nightmares - and there are quite a few of us left out here in the boonines who are doing everything we can to propigate an epidemic of them!

Stay tuned; it's apt to be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:33 PM

I am a fiscal conservative. I dont spend money I dont have to buy things I dont need to impress people I dont even like. BUT, when it comes to the human condition, I am a liberal. People are worth more than any one's bottom line. If you conservatives had your way, we would still be back in the caves trying to invent fire. Or, at least back in the coal mines and steel factories being worked to death for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, with one day off per year for $500.00. Let's have a show of hands here. How many of us belong to the middle class? Who created the middle class? the Labor Unions, that's who. Labor Unions, the folks who brought you the 8 hour day, overtime, weekends off, workmans comp. safer working conditions. The force behind labor unions? LIBERALS! the folks who brought you social security, medicare, medicaid. Conservatives look back fondly to the days when the robber barons could work a man to death for pennies a day, and the only benefit the company afforded the dead or injured was to carry his body home and dump it on his doorstep! If they protested men like Andrew Carnaige hired goons like the Pinkertons to bust their heads. The bosses even owned the police, but, right was might, and men like John L. Lewis showed them where the bear shit in the buckwheat!

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:01 PM

My, my, how peaceful it had been the last few months. Cousin IT is so good at labeling people and situations that I've quite missed him. Not.

Elva

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:12 PM

Uncle J is really a nice guy, he's just a little myopic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:29 PM

Nice he may be- but a charm course couldn't hurt.

Uncle Jaque, haven't you ever noticed that you turn people off? Every once in awhile you start to say something interesting- but I can't stand the static long enough to stick around.

Eb

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 11:37 PM

Well Ebbie, it takes all kinds, doesn't it? At least UJ stirs things up a bit instead of likes talking to likes, right? Maybe it would be more comfortable were likes only talking to likes though. Then there would be no dissension. Like 1984, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:49 AM

Differences of opinion, yes, DougR. I'm very happy that we don't all think or want or need the same thing. What I'm objecting to is abrasive, juvenile name calling along with no humor, no lightness of spirit, with no appealing personality or real self showing.

On the other hand, Uncle Jaque, I just talked myself out of my snit. Fire away.

Eb

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:04 AM

Aaaaaahh; the PASSION!!!

Ya just gotta love it!(?)

Actually, as I have come to know some of the professing "Liberals" in this community, I have generally found that at our seedy old cores, we are usually not really all that dissimmilar after all.

Sure, I'm a "Conservative"; I believe that America's greatest assetts are it's PEOPLE, not it's Government. I applaud opportunity and initiative, but expect to share accountability with my fellow Citizens for the choices we make. I certainly do not condone the exploitation or abuses of the past, be they perpetrated by slave-drivers or industrial "robber-barons", and have no intention of tolerating the like in our age. Conceeded, there was a time when labor organization was a positive factor in our Civilization - even neccessary. But what started out as a noble enteprise became all too quickly an avenue to power, and like the Church and Goverment in all too many cases, became itself an institution corrupted and defiled to the point where Labor Bosses were weilding their power for coersion, extortion, and exploitation of the free-market economy to the detriment of the working class they were formed to protect and advocate for.
No way I want to see greed, exploitation, or any such dehumanization going on here or anywhere else by thugs and goons of the private OR public sector... and I don't think we have to adhere to any particular political ideaology to espouse that sort of sentiment.

It seems that we often accept certain definitive stereotypes of people based on racial, religious, or political groupings or refferant groups (to name a very few). In my rantings, I probably do get a little "myopic", as Kendall suggests; passion will do that to a fellow on occasion. When I count to ten and cool off, I can usually accept the notion that probably not all "Liberals" are little Joe Stalins who really want to impose classical Communist tyranny on us or round us up in the middle of the night and drag us off to be shot if we ask too many questions. At least I hope not.
Most folk who follow that line seem sincerely compassionate, well intentioned and all that - but convinced that the solution to any problem is more government, more laws, and /or more money. Dependancy is seen a some sort of virtue, and the real heroes of American society are it's "victims".

Well, I don't see that as what made this country significant (if I use the term "great", no doubt some one will be terribly offended). And I don't see it being the path to our continued National significance.. or survival, for that matter, either.
And at the risk of sounding "paranoid", I have a disconcerting feeling that there are indeed a few influencial "liberals" out there who do have an agenda which is not nearly as altruistic as the majority of their followers; it involves power; lots of it - polarized and incontrovertable - in the hands of a relatively small ruling elite in which of course they expect to be included. Such a system has never boded well for peace or justice in any civilization, according to any history that I'm aware of.

Everywere it's been tried, it's been a disaster... and I don't want our America to be the scene of the next repetition of an outworn experiment.

Now can we all go back to the "Music" and play nicely together?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 01:24 AM

Well, I swan! The man is making sense. ( and a personality is peeking through... :)

If you are willing to fill the blank with the name of almost any group, including 'conservatives', I will agree with you. To coin a phrase, power corrupts.

"And at the risk of sounding "paranoid", I have a disconcerting feeling that there are indeed a few influencial "liberals" out there who do have an agenda which is not nearly as altruistic as the majority of their followers; it involves power; lots of it - polarized and incontrovertable - in the hands of a relatively small ruling elite in which of course they expect to be included. Such a system has never boded well for peace or justice in any civilization, according to any history that I'm aware of.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: leprechaun
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:34 AM

Hi Uncle Jaque The power grab of which you speak will be quite evident in New York where the anti-globlization protests will so predictably degenerate into the standard self-indulgent display of destructive nihilism. It seems to be the standard formula for these professional protesters. Show up. Aggravate, sceam obscenities, burn flags. When the police don't respond, be menacing, escalate until the police have no choice but to get forceful. Then scream brutality. Take turns being "peaceful protestors" and rock-throwing berzerkers. Transmogrify the definition of violence. Show cleverly edited videos to Amnesty International.

Regardless of Mr. About Time's interpretation of the surveys, I don't think the anarchists understand or even care about winning the hearts and minds of our young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 06:42 AM

There is no inherent antinomy between "conservative" and "liberal". Talking iun thiose terms is a bit like talking as if the opposite extreme to North was West, or the opposite extreme to "black" was "green".

If you want an opposite for "conservative" you'd have to use some word such as "progressivist" (I avoided "progressive" there because it sneaks in a value loaded implication). Similarly the opposite of "liberal" would be "repressive", or simpler still, "illiberal".

There's no reason on earth why the most change resisting conservative in the world shouldn't also be extremely liberal in their opinions, more especially of course if they lived in a society which was liberal to start with, so that opposing change meant opposing illiberal ideas.

Good place to live, that would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 08:50 AM

UJ you talk like the people and the government are two different things. In my book, the government IS the people. You are right about the corruption of the labor unions,and their grab for power, but, how is that different from the corruption(Teapot dome scandal) and the power of the robber barons? At least, we of the middle class have gotten considerable benefit from the labor unions which we never got from the robber barons. Labor leaders can be voted out, just as corrupt politicians can. Look, someone is going to be the boss, and I prefer a man like John L. Lewis to Andrew Carnagie. And as far as someone coming in the night to take you away, I'd say that John Ashcroft is a hell of a lot more dangerous than any liberal I ever met.Even Abe Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and you can bet Ashcroft is chomping at the bit to do it again. Bush and Rumsfeld are telling us that the terrorists in Cuba will not be treated like prisoners of war, yet, Dubbya keeps saying we are at war. He cant have it both ways. We are at war to justify what he has done to the economy, but, the prisoners are not prisoners of war? He has spent 50 billion dollars on this "war", so, what happened to the 2 trillion dollar surplus that Willy left? My math tells me that it went into the pockets of the filthy rich who put him into the white house. Speaking of Ashcroft, how about his crusade to cover the statue at the Justice Dept.? How anal can you get? I've seen posts by guys like Doug reminding us that Gore lost in his own state? Ashcroft lost to a dead man in his own state.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM

Personally, over the years, I have known a lot of people on both ends of the political spectrum, and, once you cut through the rhetoric, when they sit down and work together, the differences tend to be in style or approach, rather than in the goals--

There is a different group, though, who use issues, especially controversial ones, as a vehicle for personal power--left, right, or center, they care only about their personal advancement--these are the ones who scare me, because, no matter how noble the ideas they espouse, they hesitate at nothing to get what they want--

Incidentally Uncle Jaque, a bit of reality check for you, "Komrade" Tom Brokaw is both a close friend and longtime supporter of our President, GW Bush--

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 05:13 PM

We all want what's best for America. The difference is we dont agree on how best to accomplish that. To illustrate how I see it, The republicans believe in the "Trickle down" theory. The rich provide jobs,they get a return on their investment, and the working man benefits. To put it into more colorful language, "If you want to feed the birds, just feed the horses." Democrats believe that if the worker is paid a fair wage, he will be able to buy the goods he produces. Henry Ford knew that, that's why he paid his workers enough so they could buy a new Ford. That's "bubble up". The problem with both theories is, it does not take into account human nature and down right greed. That's the law of the jungle, the way the cookie crumbles. Anybody lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM

The difference between the political right and the political left boils down to this: the right wingers think they know what is best for everyone and don't tolerate any oposition to their views. The left wingers, on the other hand, think they know what's best and don't tolerate any oposition to... Oh, wait a minute I must be mixed up somewhere.

Real politicians have no idealogical commitment to either extreme. They use give and take negotiation to try achieve the best outcome under the circumstances. The rest are just piss ants.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 10:33 AM

It seems to me that this all boils down to one thing: A little socialism can be a good thing but too much is a bad thing. Communism, however is inheirantly flawed. It don't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:02 AM

Whether a communist system would be viable is open to debate - but don't let anyone ever tell you that what they had in the Soviet system was communism. They didn't even claim it was themselves - they just claimed it was laying the foundations for a future communist society. That was a lie all along.

Rather the same way western politicians talk about building a genuinely free society. A handy aspiration, when you are headed in the opposite direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 07:50 PM

According to Comrad Brokaw, the Enron paper trail leads directly into the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:34 AM

OK, now I think we can pretty much tell how much of a "Close personal friend" Komrade Brokaw is of our President. "W" also publicly referrs to Tom Daschelle and Ted Kennedy as his "friends", despite the well established fact that they have done whatever is in their power to discredit, undermine, and sabbotage the Bush Presidency. I think that it's safe to assume that such "friends" can be expected to continually backstab, slander, and malign President Bush and his Administration for as long as they are able to.
Gee, it sure is nice to think of an "Administration" in the White House instead of a "Syndicate".

Did you catch the President's remarks yesterday about how he won't let his dog "Barney" into the Oval Office, 'cause the carpet is too new? Do we need to be reminded of what the previous Chief Executive did all over the old carpet?

Did Brokaw (or any of his mainstream media Komrades) tell you about how much money Joe Leiberman took from ENRON? And despite AG Ashcroft's recusing himself in order to avoid "the appearance of impropriety", who is it that sees no problem at all with leading the Senate investigation into ENRON, hmmm?
Care to look into that so I don't have to spell it out for you?
I think we can all safely assume that "friends" Brokaw et al will continue to convieniently "overlook" certain facts which may not be compatable with their established political agenda. In standard English usage, they call that "Propoganda", no?
There are other facts as well which we are not supposed to be aware of - like ENRON lawyers' previous relations with the Klinton Syndicate, and the stark distinction of how Contributors were treated by the Syndicate (overnights in the Licoln Bedroom, exports of military technology laws bypassed etc.) vs. the current Administration, who rebuffed ENRON Executive's pleas for "special treatment" or Government favors.
If you are depending on Brokaw for your information about how the World turns, you are getting a very one-sided perspective, my friends. And unlike those media giants, I will not intentionally or knowingly lie to you. Ever.

...And Bush and Cheney are supposed to be profiting from "Big Oil", eh? Did Brokaw ever tell you about how much Klinton's cronies made off of the "Strategic oil reserves" that were tapped for New England's Winter needs about 3 years ago and, as far as can be determined, sold to Japan or other overseas buyers instead of going to releive the energy needs of freezing Americans?
How much stock in Oriental Oil did Al Gore hold when the Government's Oak Grove Oil Reserve in California was sold off to the highest bidder? Surely Dan Rather advised us of that... didn't he?

No problem when Queen Hitlary can wangle a $1,000 investment in cattle futures (one of the riskiest markets of all, we are told) into $10,000 very quickly, but President B. is a villian just for KNOWING Enron Execs. And we have not heard of how much he personally profited from Enron - somehow I think if there WAS any such gain, we would have heard about it loud and clear by now.

If you regularly suckle your brains at the breast of NBC, CBS, or ABC (and their clones) you will probably not have the slightest clue as to the flagrant double-standard applied to Republicans by Democrats and their eager collaborators in the Press.

By the way; thanks for the "reality check", M. Ted. Actually, I have been checking.

You?

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:07 AM

Bush collected 800 thousand dollars from Enron. More than all the others together. Talk about not revealing the truth, Cheney is not about to tell congress or anyone what went down in those visits from Enron executives. UJ do you seriously believe that 800 thousand dollars didn't buy access to the white house? Senator Fienstien was rebuffed in her attempt to see resident Bush. (Probably because she didn't contribute to his campaign) Also, do you really think that the media is harder on Bush than they were on Clinton? He took 8 years of their digging. Bush has had one year. So, his approval rating is 80%. Ok, why? not because he doesn't piss off allies and scare the shit out of enemies to the point where they (China) is building their nuclear weapons store in response to his idiotic star wars scheme. His approval rating is high because too many Americans are steeped in "Patriotism" and flag waving and drum pounding. All he has to do is wrap himself in the flag and millions of idiots will follow him into hell. It worked for Hitler and Napoleon. Now, it's not all his fault we have had warnings as far back as Nixon and every president since him has done little or nothing about the CAUSES of terrorism. Any asshole can order bombs to be dropped on a country already reduced to rubble by the Soviets. But, it's that old saying, "Do something, even if it's wrong." Dubbya inherited a bad situation, and his handling of it guarantees more serious terrorist attacks. We will never be safe again thanks to the assholes we send to Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 10:20 AM

Doesn't it make sense to take into account the fact that dysfunctional and incestuous relationships between the media, the government, and the military industrial complex is what defines power inside the Beltway?

Another point to remember--if the so-called "right" and so-called "left" reformers are too extreme for the Great Majority in the Center, and moderation and compromise are the most cherished values of a society, as they are now, what we get is this corruption on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because when moderation and compromise dominates political life, nothing meaningful in terms of reforms ever takes place, and the status quo dominates. When things don't change when they need to change, stagnation and rot set in.

This is I Ching 101, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: Edain
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:04 AM

I think UJ needs to be more sure of his definitons of types of government. Socalism is NOT communism. I am unashamedly a socialist, I truely believe that the rich should pay higher taxes then the poor because they can afford it. I believe in free education and health servies for all, do that make me a comunist? No. What needs to be remembered is that socialism spans a wide range of views between capitalist ones and communist ones but can not be accuratly classed as either.

Also, I agree with McGrath that communisn it's it's true form has not been seen. In all example so far the system fell down when the rich got greedy and took more for themselves. True communism will probably never be seen as the people with the power always become greedy and this it flips from communism to the far, far extreem of capitalism, where not only do the people with the money make the rules, they control absolutly everything. True communism would be ionteresting to watch and study to see if Humans can ever live exactly equally and no single one of them take control but as I said before, I doubt this will ever happen and certainly not in my lifetime.

So, UJ, please remember, socalism was once described as capitalism with a consience (sp?), it is not communism, but a viable form of goverment, well tried and well tested.

Subject: RE: BS: Bad Moon Rising for US Conservatives
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 11:18 AM

UJ has also no desire to understand the successes of contemporary socialist governments, like those in Scandinavia. Now, I don't think any citizens of those countries would say their system of government is perfect--no government ever will be. But socialist governments at least attempt to meet the needs of all their citizens, not just the wealthy and powerful ones, as our system of capitalist republican government does.

And let us not forget, when post-Somoza Nicaragua attempted to create a government which combined socialism with capitalism, the US government, acting in conjunction with the corporations and oligarchies of Central America, brought down with the CIA/Papa Bush run contra war.

If the US contra war against Nicaragua didn't carry the stench of Stalinism, nothing does.