Explore: Raglan Road 2

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:28 AM

Aye, poor oul Paddy strung along by a "cute hoor".

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Kate
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 07:15 PM

I heard Raglan Road one day and it stopped me in my tracks. IMHO, it is about loving someone but knowing in the back of your mind that it probably won't work out.
But, having said that, in loving, you are not able to deny the love and the want for love.
So therefore, one denies the foreshadowing that things will eventually crash and burn.
It's really sad but it caught my attention because of the honesty that one might not want to admit even to themselves.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,wilddior
Date: 14 Jan 05 - 04:23 PM

God bless the Irish! All sadness and beauty. "Raglan Road" is a great poem that remains fresh and strong. For some reason James Joyce's "The Dead" to my mind. He loves her, and longs to be loved by her as she loves the dead boy from her childhood. But it aint going to happen. How sad for the both of them.

I need a drink.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:35 PM

The above is my understanding of the song - It's one of my favourites and is hard to make out It's a real mystery, but it's kind of fun, like solving a puzzle. ~Maureen

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From:
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 10:29 PM

On Raglan Road on an Autumn Day, I met her first and knew
That her dark hair would weave a snare that I may one day rue.
I saw the danger, yet I walked along the enchanted way
And I said let grief be a falling leaf at the dawning of the day.
HE WAS ATTRACTED TO HER AND WANTED TO HAVE SOME PLEASURE IN LIFE THOUGH HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENSES WOULD NOT BE GOOD.

On Grafton Street in November, we tripped lightly along the ledge
Of a deep ravine where can be seen the worst of passions pledged.
The Queen of Hearts still baking tarts and I not making hay,
Well I loved too much; by such and such is happiness thrown away.
SHE WAS BEING SENSIBLE, WANTED TO GET MARRIED MAYBE, (PLANING AHEAD),
HE JUST WANTED TO HAVE SOME GOOD TIMES AND NOT WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING.

I gave her the gifts of my mind. I gave her the secret sign that's known
To the artists who have known true gods of sound and stone
And word and tint. I did not stint for I gave her poems to say.
With her own dark hair and her own name there like the clouds over fields of May.
SHE DECIDED THAT SHE DID NOT LOVE HIM ANYMORE DESPITE HIS WOOS, SO HE KILLED HER AND BURIED HER, (MAYBE HE BURIED HER WITH HIS POEMS AS A GIFT AT HER GRAVE). HE BECAME MAD (LIKE A THUNDERSTORM.)

On a quiet street where old ghosts meet, I see her walking now
Away from me, so hurriedly. My reason must allow,
For I have wooed, not As I should a creature made of clay-
When the angel woos the clay, he'd lose his wings at the dawn of the day.
THEY ARE NOW SEPERATED. HE HAS VISIONS OF HER. HE KNOWS THAT HE WILL NEVER FIND FORGIVENESS. HE KNOWS THAT HE HAD DONE SOMETHING TERRIBLE. HE WAS NOT CAREFUL WITH SOMEONE WHO WAS DESIGNED SO PERFECLY. HE IS REFFERED TO AS THE ANGEL~LOVER~HE FELT AS IF HE HAD TO RISE ABOVE THE GROUND WHEN HE WAS WITH HER~A HEAVENLY FEELING. HE SHOULD HAVE LOVED HER AS SHE DESERVED TO BE LOVED, BUT WAS NOT LOOKING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION AND HAS SINNED.~THEREFORE, HE LOST HIS WINGS.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:36 PM

Patrick Kavanagh was very interested in sport he played in goals for his local gaelic football team Inniskeen, he wouldn`t have been an Irishman if he hadn`t fancied a bet on the horses.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:28 PM

I had always thought Patrick Kavanagh to be a bit of a dry stick, but I warmed to him when I discovered that he had a deep love of horse-racing, and spent much of his time jousting with the bookmakers on Irish racecourses.

I would love to go back in time and quaff a pint or two with the man.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 05:57 AM

I recently started singing this song again not having listened to the words properly for years. (By the way I think Van the man makes a horlicks of it frankly!) Each line can be interpretated a million ways. The lines which give me the most trouble are to do with clay. (One of) my interpretations is that(the)woman is like the statue in the story of Nebuchudnezzr in the Bible: dazzlingly beautiful on the outside but made of cheap clay underneath.In the story the feet are smashed and the statue topples. The poet, his love unrequited, comes to the realisation that his would-be lover is not the godlike creature he at first saw but, by her rejection of him, an ordinary soiled mortal. He is distraught at his discovery and also very bitter. Even an angel (a creature of heaven)let alone a mere man, were he to woo the most beautiful woman on earth (a creature of clay), would be destroyed by such fickleness in the same way. The word clay in Ireland is often used to refer to the ground , the earth, a grave and so there is a reference to bodily beauty being ephemeral ultimately returning, through death, to earth while real beauty, poetry, art etc last for ever.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

Right on the nose Susan, the lady strung the oul country fool along.
During Kavanagh`s time in Dublin he was getting a bit naughty with another lady when she objected, on boarding her bus home Kavanagh shouted out,"I hope your`e a bit cheaper the next time".

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 07:56 PM

McGrath, I wouldn't call it humorous, but certainly self-mocking. It seems to me his head knows perfectly well what hasn't reached his gut yet - that he's been making a fool of himself!

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,SteveH
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:59 PM

Well, I've always taken the phrase "When the angel woos the clay he'd lose/his wings at the dawn of day" as "dry, self-mocking (humour)"   You know, poets have such a marvellous way of putting things but, if the subject doesn't give a toss about poetic sentiments, the poor wee verses end up writhing on the ground at the feet of said subject.
There is some very good stuff on this thread. I quite like Eric the Streetsinger's thoughts on the song. I've always loved this song, and love to sing it - it first struck me because of a personal situation at the time I first heard Dick Gaughan sing it.
   I'm a bit of a Philistine when it comes to grasping the full meaning of songs. Often, for me, it's a few phrases and the general strength of the song that lodges it in my heart. A bit like how I drink wine or beer, a particular aspect of the "flavour" strikes me and I often overlook the finer nuances (what do you mean "a hint of chocolate"?).
   Anyway, I don't often get by here- post even less- but this is enjoyable. thanks to all.          SteveH

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:51 PM

So am I alone in thinking there's a dry self-mocking humorous touch to the poem? Not joky, but a wry awareness of the comic side of life, even when it's serious.

Even especially when it's serious, because that's often how you get through those times.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:21 PM

In her autobiographical book 'Are You Somebody?' Nuala O'Faolain claims to have heard that Joan Ryan, wife of Eoin Ryan (whoever they may be), was the woman Kavanagh wrote Raglan Road about. She also claims to have shared a flat with him for a few months (in the sense that both of them happened to be lodgers at the same time).

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:50 PM

Hi folks- here's a nice long thread, I've skimmed it and enjoyed it and if I've missed someone relating what I have to say, then I'm sorry.
I first heard Raglan Road from a streetsinger on Grafton Street in Dublin. He wrote the words down for me, and I have been doing the song ever since. This was around 1990 or 91. This busker explained to me that Wim Wenders had built his film "Wings of Desire" around the lyric to "Raglan Road" and perhaps its because of this that my primary love of the song is for the narrative.
The "speaker" is an angel, a muse, or perhaps both.
He sees a woman and falls for her.
He knows it will be his downfall,(I saw the danger, yet I walked
along the enchanted way!") but he
says "Let grief be a falling leaf!" at the dawning of the day.
(i.e. "throw caution to the wind!") The danger is becoming to attached to only one charge- when he has many others to look after. He shirks his responsibility in order to follow her.
As an angel or muse, he can't communicate directly with her, so he shows his love in a different way.
"I gave her gifts of the mind.
I gave her the Secret Sign, that is known to the artist
(who has known the true god of sound and stone!)

I always took this to mean he inspired her, as a muse inspires an artist, by placing images or ideas into her mind directly through magical means.
"Word and Tint I did not stint- I gave her poems to say!" almost like a possesion. "With her own name there, and her long black hair like clouds over fields in May!"      
When he begins, again, to refer to hair and physical beauty, he has strayed too far from his role.
His desire becomes a physical desire, inappropriate for a muse.   
I always wonder what its like for him at this point-
does he actually see a way to get into her world, or is it just wishful thinking?
Wim Wenders' angel actually discovers that he can give up his wings, and enter the physical world, but the price is mortality, pain, to share the imperfections in the world of clay! And takes the plunge!

"On a dark street where old ghosts meet I see her... walking...away   from me so hurriedly.
My reason must allow that I had wooed not as I should.
(A creature made from clay.")
He's beginning to question his own actions here, isn't he?
It is not right for an angel/muse
to love a human being beyond the rules of his created function/destiny.
She, being mortal, has passed on,
leaving him, the immortal, alone and sorrowful.
In the end, he has relented of his "wooing".
That's why she's walking away from him,
and why its on a street where "old ghosts meet!"
She being mortal, has passed away, and he, immortal, is left behind.
Had he taken the next step in wooing her, he would, in fact, have lost his wings, but he doesn't, finally.
He turns back from the abyss.
I love that line-
"When the angel woos the clay he'd lose his wings."
and then he's back "at the dawning of the day," when he saw her first,
and said "let grief be a falling leaf!"
Perhaps a bit literal, but that's my reading.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

Tim , Sorry I was the Guest, I am having a wee cry for the poor `gers.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:23 AM

Thanks GUEST. 1934 fits the chronology very well. Of course Kavanagh could simply have learned the song from anyone without ever having heard any recording. McCormack though was probably the ultimate source. (I have quite a few McCormack tracks on CD but not that one).

Edward Walsh's "Dawning" is in the Penguin Book of Irish Verse, edited by Brendan Kennelly. It's very similar to the one above but probably closer to the original as it was translated directly from Irish, whereas later versions were edited, changed and "improved" all-English efforts.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM

Tim, The date given for the recording by John McCormack of, The dawning of the day, 29-8-1934,[PW Joyce, Old Irish air, arrangement by N Clifford Page.]
Most of McCormack`s recordings are now on CD, a bit of Googling will lead you to the many companies which sell them.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM

Pick, pick, pick... but I wouldn't really see Fáinne Gheal an Lae as sean-nós. It's too rhythmic, or maybe it's that the rhythm is too simple. Beautiful song, though.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:28 AM

Ard, you got the date of the McCormack recording? I'd guess that was the one that PK was familiar with. "Raglan" was written some time over the winter of '44/45 (published in'46).                                          

Finbar Wright, my favourite tenor, has recorded "Raglan" but I was quite disappointed with his interpretation. I think it was somewhat lacking in passion. My favourite version remains the one by that notorious banjo twanger, Luke Kelly.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:52 PM

The Count was a great man, and a lovely singer, and the Irish Tenor heritage is a splendid one and long may it continue - but the smooth beauty of the voice can get in the way of the song for me, and that's a personal idiosyncrasy.

But the world isn't divided between Tenors and guitar-twanging warblers. For one thing there's the Sean Nos tradition, and that's where this song fits most satisfactorily for me. Both these songs in fact.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:37 PM

Tim, I have John McCormack singing The dawning of the day, and as the great man died on 1945, you will have a job trying to locate an earlier version.
I have heard this song at many a Feis throughout the late 1950s and always performed by Tenors, and McGrath the only person who got in the way may have been the fat lady coming out a wee bit early, give me a fine Tenor singing this song in preference to some guitar twanging warbler.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 02:53 PM

Sorry Ard, I'm with McG on this one, Kavanagh's lyric is pretty much independent of the original: though inspired by it, it's "better"; or at least more meaningful for more modern times. It has to be kept in mind though, that Walsh's version is a translation and has probably been "prettified". Because it rhymes (and so sweetly and neatly) in another language, it's artificial. I'd love to see, and understand, the original lyric in Irish. Ard, I do have a (very) good tenor, Michael O'Duffy, singing it, from 1948, too late for Kavanagh. I wonder where Kavanagh learned it? Any info on older recordings?

As Tom Munnelly said yonks ago on Mudcat, Kavanagh himself sang the song to the old air, the film is in RTE archives. A short clip of it was shown on the Luke Kelly tribute on RTE in '99, of which I have a copy. (Paddy was a god-awful singer, worse than me!).

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 01:43 PM

Kavanagh would certainly have known Fáinne Gheal an Lae - it was sung much more then than it is now. But I don't know if he even intended Raglan Road to be sung to the same tune.

As for the use of the phrase "the dawning of the day", there are certain phrases that are stock in Irish ballads; this, I think is one of them. Another is Yeats's favourite "I shall arise and go now". Kind of like "I woke up this morning" in blues.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 11:13 AM

Horses for courses. That's pleasant enough, but I'd rate Raglan Road far higher. And I'd disagree about the "good Tenor" as well. More times than not I find the voice gets in the way of the song.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:57 AM

Thanks Tim, I much prefer these words to the Raglan Road "version", can only be done justice by a good Tenor.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DAWNING OF THE DAY
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 05:23 AM

They are different songs, but close indeed. I wonder how much the earlier song influenced Kavanagh's? "With gentle words I courted her", isn't that different from "I gave her poems to say". And the theme of lost love is the same, yes, no?

The version below is the one that was popular in Ireland in Kavanagh's day (his song was published in 1946). It's based on the translation by Edward Walsh (1805-50), from Derry

THE DAWNING OF THE DAY

At early dawn I once had been, where Lene's bright waters flow,
When summer bid the groves be green, the lamp of light to glow,
And on by bower and town and tower, through fields all green and gay,
Whom should I meet but a colleen sweet, at the dawning of the day.

No cap or cloak this maiden wore, her neck and feet were bare,
Down to her waist in ringlets fell, her golden, glossy hair,
A milking pail was in her hand, she was lovely, young and gay,
Outshining far the morning star at the dawning of the day.

On a mossy bank I sat me down, this maiden by my side,
With gentle words I courted her, I asked her "Be my bride",
She said, "Young man don't bring me shame" and swiftly turned away,
And the sun's first light pursued her flight at the dawning of the day.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Lough Nay
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 03:51 AM

McGrath you are right, but it was close.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,McGrath
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

It's not a "version" - they are completely different songs, with a shared tune.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Lough Neagh
Date: 23 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

This is my favourite version, well before Paddy Kavanagh`s Raglan Road, try Googling The dawning of the day [Irish Song] and you will find what you are looking for.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 04:35 PM

I used to know the words of Fáinne Gheal an Lae years ago (fáinne an lae - literally the ring of the morning - refers to the way that the dawning sun makes a ring at the horizon) many years ago, but only remember fragments. It started "Ar maidin moch, do gheabhas amach, ar bruach Locha Léin" (Early in the morning I went out on the bank of Loch Lene). I'll just google a bit and see if I can find it... I think it's an aisling, as far as I remember - you know, the 18C verse form where a wandering poet meets a beautiful woman who seeks his help; love songs in the form of nationalist anthems or vice versa, depending on your taste.

Le Fainne Geal An lae

Trad. / Music: Perry Rose

"Ar maidin moch
do gabhas amach
ar bhruach Locha Léin.
An Samhradh 'teacht
an chraobh lem ais
'gus banta mine réidh
Cé gheobhainn lem ais
ach an cailin deas
le fainne geal an lae"

English Translation :
One morning early as I walked forth
By the margin of Lough Lene
The sunshine dressed the trees in green
And summer bloomed again
I left the town and wandered on
Through fields all green and gay
And whom should I meet but my colleen deas
At the bright ring of the day

(I don't know what "Perry Rose" refers to. Oh, and this is only one verse; as far as I remember there were five or six.)

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 08:24 AM

It seems to me that there's a self-mocking side to the song that people often miss.. "There was I so high and flighty, with my poems and my notions I was some kind of higher beings, bringing her up to my level - I burnt my wings a bit there all right..." The mood is rueful rather than tragic.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Tick Mick
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 07:19 AM

Of course it means that, even I knew that.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,David Parr Liverpool UK
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 03:28 AM

"That I had wooed not as I should A creature made of clay"


My interpretation of this phase tells me that Patrick Kavanagh's love was not returned.

He likened his love as wooing a piece of porcelain (fine clay).

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:48 PM

Raglan Road Music Festival.--A celebration of music, poetry, theatre, and song will be held in Patrick Kavanagh`s birthplace Iniskeen County Monaghan from Friday July 30th until Sunday August 1st.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 10:37 AM

That makes sense given the last line of the first verse. I wonder how he expected the words to br phrased then.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Fergie
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM

It was Kavanagh himself who set the poem to the tune 'Fáinne Gheal an Lae' this translates literally as 'Bright ring of morning' which is essentially The Dawning of the Day, hence 'and I said let grief, be a falling leaf, at the dawning of the day'

Fergus

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Jun 04 - 05:29 AM

The phrasing of the third verse has been discussed already, but I'd like to add my two-and-a-half-pen'orth.
In all the published versions of the poem (ie not as a song) that I have seen, the line
And word and tint. I did not stint,
has always had a full-stop after the word "tint" which to me signifies that the it is part of the phrase
That's known to the artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone and word and tint.
I agree with the previous posting that suggests that these probably refer to the muses of Music, Sculpture, Poetry, and Painting.

It is noticeable, however, that whenever the words are written as song lyrics, the period tends to be replaced by a comma, implying that "And word and tint" is part of the following phrase. Probably this is because the tune itself makes this a preferable phrasing, but it does alter the meaning considerably.

Incidently, who was the first person to associate the poem with the tune ? - I have seen it variously claimed as, Kavanaugh himself, Luke Kelly, and Joan Osborne.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Paul B.
Date: 10 Jun 04 - 10:55 AM

A truely fascinating and informative thread on one of my favourite ballads. At the risk of showing my total ignorance, I would just like to add one consideration on the symbolism of "at the dawning of the day".

A number of posts have seen this as an optimistic note - a pointer to a new beginning or rebirth. I have an alternative reading which is more in seeing the dawning of the day as the end/death of the night. That is to say the end of the magical dark hours where drinking, dancing, carousing and the ever-titillating possibility of ending up in a clinch with the object of your affections has been and gone, now replaced by the cold light of reality and the necessity of shambling back to your lodgings (or a coffeehouse for the full pig breakfast, money allowing). Whether relevant or not, one can't help but be reminded of the pre-Christian celtic practice in measuring the passing of time by nights rather than days (hence fortnight for e.g.).

Also, though this surely cannot be relevant, the mention of "the gods of sound and stone" brings to mind a mind-boggling TV documentary I saw a few years back on some fella had accidentally discovered acoustic properties to stone circles and other neolithic monuments like Newgrange etc. I can certainly attest to the acoustic "amplifier" effects of Stonehenge from summer solstices past.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,eileen
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:15 AM

The impression I recieve from this song..listening AND performing, is that the "male lead" in the song considers himself to be lofty and ethereal and tries to bring the "female lead" up to his "standards" and finally realizes (at the same point in which she clearly shows him she is not interested) that she is a "mere mortal" (ie.feet of clay)and as often happens in real life situations...that which cannot be attained is sour grapes. Probably a less romantic impression than some...but who says people can't think themselves better than others? Even poets. From tragedy is born beauty.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Guest Border Fox
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

JTT, Kavanagh came from County Monaghan on the Armagh border in the north -east.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

Joan Osborne sings this??? Be still my beating heart. Where is that coat......?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 08:03 AM

I had never realised before that Fáinne Gheal an Lae was a traditional song, I had always thought it was a traditional air.

You never stop learning, do you ?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 04:52 AM

I'm sure Kavanagh is rolling around in his grave laughing at all the deep theories based on his simple love poem!

It may be apposite to mention that it's sung to the tune of Fáinne Gheal an Lae (the Bright Dawning of the Day), a traditional song - if anyone wants to read something into that, go on, it'll make even more fun!

I love Kavanagh's view of my city. Coming as he did from the mountainy country of the northwest, where three-quarters of the view is a huge sky full of racing clouds, he has a great view of a city which must have felt to him like the depth of a ravine.

Someone on the radio the other day - Ben Kiely, maybe? - said that Kavanagh lived in Baggot Street because it was so reminiscent of a market town, with the wide street, rows of shops and pubs, and the bridge at the end.

In relation to class, well, Kavanagh was pretty well got. His family ran the Monument Creameries, and he was in no way the impoverished farmer often imagined.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From:
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 11:04 PM

I get the gist of the poem because I've been there and done that including sensing the danger, tripping along, etc. for those who are looking for deep Celtic mysticism and meaning, you have too much education and too little experience. My first love had dark hair too and morals less Catholic than mine. I was used and my life put on hold for ten years. In short, I fell passionatly in love with a narcicistic person of less education and intelligence who wound up running away from me because her feelings for me were less sincere but not less passionate than my feelings for her. In short, she enjoyed the passion but knew that it wouldn't work as a marriage but I was to naive to see that. It's an age old story told told beautifully. When set to music, it brings tears to my eyes and sad memories to mind.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,-pc
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

I've always "felt" that Stonehenge was made by sound, with the help of the true gods.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:32 PM

" boy falls in love with girl"   "Man falls in love with woman" is more the way of it...

And the point isn't pinning down "the facts", it's getting a clearer appreciation of the images andnthe language.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Swimming with Behan....
From: GUEST,JJ Skye
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:19 PM

When he was once asked, and by what would have been called 'a snooty nosed, BBC type' drama critic, what it was his play was 'actually about', noted Irish Playwright, Brendan Behan (since deceased) famously replied, "Well now Sir, I don't know if I would be able to tell you that at all, but I will tell you that I like to swim in the sea; I don't know what it is actually about at all, this swimming in the sea; I just know that I like it." Quite so, Mr. Behan.
I have but skimmed prior comment herein yet it sure occurs to mention that the probing, plunging and diving into of unknown depths can sometimes lead to the unexpected onset of severe cranial trauma, not to mention a certain constipation of the intellectual function: Raglan road is any road, Grafton street is any street.....Autumn, November, May. Time passes. Boy meets girl; boy falls in love with girl; boy loses girl. It is a sad thing---beautiful too; provacative, compelling and true; it is the way life is. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,JJ Skye
Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:00 PM

I have but skimmed prior comment herein only but it occurs to mention that the probing, plunging and diving into of unknown depths can sometimes lead to the unexpected onset of severe cranial trauma, not to mention a certain constipation of the intellectual function: Raglan road is any road, Grafton street is any street.....Autumn, November, May; time passes; Boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl. It is a sad thing-beautiful too; it is the way life is. Enjoy on.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Luke Boyd
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:48 AM

"I gave her gifts of the mind
I gave her the secret sign
That's known to the artists
Who have known the true gods of sound and stone
And word and tint, I did not stint,
I gave her poems to say.
With her own name there and her own dark hair
Like clouds over fields of May."

    This may be a bit risqué but in the old Celtic mysteries "gifts of the mind" and "the secret sign" are clear and common references to passing on one's knowledge.
    First one must give "the gifts of the mind" which allows the other to perceive things in the correct manner. Then one must give them "the secret sign"; this is a bit harder to describe but simplified can be likened to a spiritual "tattoo" or marking which acts as a kind of "Magician card" allowing one access to both the Otherworld and the confidence of others of like mind.
    Practitioners of the arcane were often called bards or artists and all artistic achievement was considered to be an extension of the same root ability.   The "true gods (note plural) of sound and stone" seems a clear reference to the Irish deities predating the Christian invasion.
    Working hypothetically and using the assumption that he's trying to initiate this girl the rest of the verse is also fairly blunt if one possesses a basic understanding of the practice. "Word and tint" as well as giving her poems to say refers to the practice of reciting poems in a certain manner, an extremely common means of casting a spell, something like the mantras of Hinduism. (This can be seen in almost every story in Irish/Celtic mythology.)
    "With her own name there and her own dark hair" is a reference to an initiatory experience. "Like clouds over fields of May" is a bit more vague but refers to a failed initiation or something going horribly wrong in the process. Clouds are a common metaphor for the haze of illusion that hangs over human existence which is lifted during initiation. Something akin to the enlightenment of Hindu/Buddhist tradition but not quite.
    I would add that poetry and mysticism have been linked in all surviving Celtic traditions since mythic times. This can me seem in the likes of Taelsin (Welsh), Merlin (Welsh, Breton, Cornish), and Cuchalain (Irish) as well as many more modern poets and playwrights.
    I would add that this does not conflict with anything written previously, it was common for such knowledge to be passed from mate to mate and then on to their children. It seems to me the whole poem refers to a man encountering a woman he finds to me beautiful and attempting to bring her in to his world. This attempt fails due to her being made of "clay", or her not being capable of understanding such things.
    By attempting to drag her into his world for his sake and not hers he is doing "not as he should" and as a consequence she instead drags her into her world, hence he loses his wings. (Note the very clear indication of the angel as male.)
    Whatever the meaning it is indeed a truly beautiful work and I mean no offense by this interpretation. I also agree totally agree with the statement about metaphors with multiple meanings. I offer this as yet another dimension of this masterpiece.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,sharyn
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 01:30 PM

Guest, "the true gods of sound and stone and word and tint" are artists, the way I read it: musicians, scuptors, writers, painters. He's sharing with her the best and most beautiful things he knows, including his own poems.