Explore: Raglan Road 2

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,guest billy from cork
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:04 AM

"when the angel woos the clay he lose his wings at the dawning of the day" refers to soul returning to the body after a night of flight in the dream state."i have wo'od not as i should, a creature made of clay" refers to his feeling of love so strong and complete that a mere mortal could not appreciate it so , like all of us, she rejects what she cannot handle or fathom.
i for one really like the version recorded by van morrison and the chieftains.

mailto:[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,awandererplays
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM

to avoid confusion: yes, wayfarer and wanderer are one and the same.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,wayfarer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:26 PM

Thanks for that, weelittledrummer. I'll check out Ramblin' Jack's "Danville Girl" and have a listen.

No, I didn't write "Finisterre." Actually I found it on a June Tabor album, "Freedom & Rain," the one she did with The Oyster Band. I believe Ian Tefler, one of the band members wrote it and June certainly sings it brilliantly. I do think it's a great relatively undiscovered jem and wanted to draw attention to it, so I'm glad you noticed it and liked it!

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 04:30 AM

Interesting wanderer - the way you do Raglan Road reminds me a little of how Jack Elliot used to sing Danville Girl.

I liked the Finisterre track - is that one of your own?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Emmet
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

Great song/poem.....great site.....

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,awandererplays
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM

well i'm not sure what the hell it all means but it sure is fun to sing!

here's my take on the tune...

click here

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Gulliver
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 09:28 PM

WLD, that's an interesting essay on PK. It ties in with what my family knew of him--we lived next to the corner of Raglan Road and Pembroke Road, and my parents knew him and Brendan Behan. Don

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM

Just a quick note to say that John mclaughlin has donated two pictures to the website - one showing the house on Raglan Rd where Kavanagh lied and the other showing the spot where he was chucked (or fell)into the river.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 06:59 PM

Shawna and Big Mick,

It strikes me that you both have this the wrong way round; PK sees himself, the poet, as the divine, the angel and her as the creature made of clay who he has tried to elevate. It's him who has the high-brow gifts to give. It's "I (who) have wooed, not as I should a creature made from clay". While she may have been financially much better off than him he publically he still looked down on her as small minded after the parting of their ways.

It's one reason why I dont really like to over-analyse this beautiful piece because it strikes me that if you do you have to conclude it revolves around a poets contempt for lesser mortals. Better to let the images of the love and beauty in the first three verses swim around, even the wistful regret of the first half of the final verse than to dwell too long on the conclusion.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

I somehow don't think the man who wrote
this had any notions about faerie queans.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

"I'm half reluctant to add in some facts in case I dampen its [this thread's] spirit ... "

It is very unlikely that adding facts will do anything to dampen the spirit of a Mudcat thread!

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 07:13 AM

Just want to say John MacLaughlin has added a fine essay to my webpage all about this song.

For those who don't know:-

John McLaughlin is a native of Donegal's Inishowen Peninsula, long resident in Scotland. He is the author of the acclaimed book 'One Green Hill: journeys through Irish songs' (2003).


I'm hoping before long to have a whole website devated to Raglan Road. If anyone else has contributions - I'd be pleased to hear from them. Bonnie Shaljean is working on a contribution and Declan who runs the Dublin folk club has offered an amusing parody. I just need to think up something vaguely intelligent to say introducing all this lot!


http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id29.html

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Billy from Celbridge
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Apologies for the duplication of information re Hilda, I was reading the old (closed) version of this thread, I only saw some of the recent stuff when my message was posted here. I have'nt caught up yet but the innaccuracies seem to have been long since addressed by others.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Billy from Celbridge
Date: 05 Sep 08 - 06:11 AM

This is an extrordinary thread, it sarted in 2001! Marvellous theories, interpretations mixed with truths, half truths, blind guesswork and nonsense. The thread has such a life of its own that I'm half reluctant to add in some facts in case I dampen its spirit but there is much speculation about who the "her" is.

It is fairly well accepted that the poem, written by Patrick Kavanagh in 1946, was the result of his obsession with Hilda Moriarty in 1944. Far from being a bakery worker or a prositute from Dublin, Hilda was the daughter of a doctor from Kerry. She was beautiful and intelligent. Once she did a screen test in Hollywood for a part which was given to Maureen O'Hara (The Quiet Man?).

She met Kavanagh in a Dublin pub in 1944 while she was a medical student at University College Dublin. She was 22. Kavanagh was 42 at this time, strugging with his writing and living in a bed-sit on Raglan Rd.and he appears to have become obsessed with her. She never reciprocated but they were at least friendly for a time. She read his poetry and books.

At some stage he told her that he wasnt able to write anymore, apparently she teased him that there was only so much you could write about farmyards - write about love. His response was Raglan Road. She graduated as a medical doctor in 1945. Kavangh remained obsessed and virtually stalked her until in 1947 she married Donogh O'Malley who later bacame the Irish Minister for Education.

Hilda travelled widely with O'Malley, she met JFK, Fidel Castro and at some stage became friends with Richard Harris. She is only known to have met Kavanagh once more before he died in 1967. Her husband died in 1968. She ran for his seat in Limerick, supported by Richard Harris who actually sang "Camelot" at her campaign hustings. She didnt win (lost out to her husband's nephew Dessie O'Malley). She died in 1991.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Patrick
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

I just heard the song sung by Luke Kelly on the movie "In Bruges" and this caused me to explore and I ended up on this "blog". I am in the process of getting over a younger lady I met from Mecknes and the sentiments expressed in the song suit my mood. I lived near Raglan Rd, and in Baggot St. in the past and had heard the song discussed in the past. I think the lady from Mecknes could be made of stone and if I return to Morocco to pursue her I will lose my wings.Thanks Patrick. But i might still go.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:41 AM

In reply to Seany on 23/01/01, I believe that "And I said, lef grief be a fallen leaf at the dawning of the day" means that he doesn't really care about grief so he wants it to be discarded,like a fallen leaf, at the start of his day.

On the matter of 'of the deep ravine where can be seen the worth of passion's pledge' I think that he is trying to say that if you look from high ground you can see what it means to pledge your passion and feelings to your lover.

And for the last line 'secret sign' that is know to artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone, this could mean that some people have learnt the beauty of listening to people's words rather than listening to his own heart.

Hope this helps you. If not, I can be contacted at [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:51 PM

I have been trying to put my thoughts together about this song on this webpage, after a friend played Pete Rowan's excellent version. there are a few typos as it was done today, and I have tried to put together a version that makes sense for me.

I know it will be radically different to some ears and the worse for that, but hopefully some of you will get my drift.

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id29.html

I hope to add more explanation at some point. There seems to me to be a sort of Empsonian ambiguity in the choice of Raglan.   Raglan was of course, one of the toffs at the Charge of the Light Brigade. And there is perhaps a hint of flawed heroic enterprise, or maybe a confession of inward corruption in his empire of poetry - providing the backdrop.

best wishes

big Al Whittle

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:20 AM

Yea, Lord Raglan.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Fiolar
Date: 15 May 08 - 08:13 AM

I haven't read all the thread so please excuse if this is already mentioned. 'Cattters may like to know that there is also a "Raglan Road" in the city of Manchester.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 May 08 - 09:36 AM

I think that too many people are reading too much into this song. It's a great song but a fairly straightforward one in essence: about an older man falling for a much younger woman of a percieved higher social class.

'I saw the danger, yet I walked along the enchanted way and I said let grief be a falling leaf'.

Actually Kavanagh's 'grief' over the relationship was short lived.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Guest SD
Date: 09 May 08 - 01:42 PM

I was thinking about singing this song but i am hesitant as a friend told me that he thought the song was about a promiscuous woman and that it was wrote by Patrick after they had fallen out.
I find this to be an extremely narrow minded view. I think that he shows his dislike to things that she is fond of be it sex or otherwise. He is attracted to her beauty and it is how this beautiful girl views the world that annoys him. I also get the feeling that this girl was rather flippant with his thoughts and poems.
This is something that hurt Patrick deeply he cant understand how she can dismiss these things that are so important to him. He then comes to the realization that he could never have a relationship with her or any girl like her. It is big moment in Patrick's life.
This song is so great i could go on for ages. but i was just looking for some other insights into the song

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,guest SD
Date: 09 May 08 - 01:38 PM

I was thinking about singing song but i am hesitant as a friend told me that he thought the song was about a promiscuous woman that was wrote by Patrick after they had fallen out.
I find this to be an extremely narrow minded view. I think that he shows his dislike to things that she is fond of be it sex or otherwise. He is attracted to her beauty and it is the way that this beautiful girl can view the world lives is what is annoying him. I also get the feeling that this girl was rather flippant with his thoughts and poems.
This is something that hurt Patrick deeply he cant understand how she can dismiss these things that are so important. He then comes to the realization that h could never have a relationship with her or any girl like her. It is big moment in Patrick's life.
This song is so great i could go on for ages. but i was just looking for some other insights into the song

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,susi
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:00 PM

I thought she'd filched his poetry and upstaged him, as with Baez and Dylan when I heard the song.

" with her own name there and her long black hair etc".

It's truly amazing how long this discussion is and also evident that those contributing haven't read all offerings. (Myself included)

"

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,andrew
Date: 05 May 08 - 05:57 PM

It's a lament arising from the FALL FROM GRACE that is inevitably part of the human condition.
For me as a practicing Catholic, the poem has tremendous Christian-pagan tension. (angels; gods of stone and sound)
Deeply we long to live as pure spirit in this fallen material world but we get tempted and we get weak and we fall.
I wrote a play with an ex-monk in it. Why did he leave the monastery? For the pull of the world and the pull of the flesh.
Is the flesh inherently evil? Of course not. The uni-fleshness of the God-Christ has verily instituted a unitive sacred mystery (i.e. the marriage sacrament as a reflection of Christ's bond).
Note the poem has all sorts of gift and exchange references but none are of the blood or heart (the greatest sacrifice/gift we can make) or of nuptials (the form of the gift).
I think the Beatles lyric that responds well to this song is 'he-ey, you've got to hide your love away'. But only until after the vows of course.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Shawna
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:19 AM

Wow! Just found this thread. . .learned a whole lot about Raglan Road in an evening. My head hurts.

Anyway, I'll admit to being a 'Janey-come-lately'. My interpretation is based on nothing but my own opinion after having listened to, and loved, this song for a long time.

I'd like to hear what others think of my thoughts. . .

Even if the lyrics are inspired by a real-life heartbreak, I've always thought it was couched in terms of a mortal poet falling in love with a fairy queen.

He knows her for what she is, and that relationships between mortal and fairy always come to no good. (. . .I saw her first and knew/that her dark hair might weave a snare/That I might one day rue.)

Such is her ethereal charm, and the impetuousness of poets, that he gets involved anyway. (. . .I saw the danger, yet I walked/Along the enchanted way) with the 'enchanted way' being the path to underhill, the Lands Between, Fairyland, however you wanted to name it, and/or a reference to falling in love.

He decides to cast aside all thought of woe past or to come (. . .and I said let grief be a fallen leaf/At the dawning of the day.)

Where they 'trip lightly across the ledge/ of a deep ravine where can be seen/ the worth of passion's pledge'. the deep ravine is a lover's leap, and the 'worth of passion's pledge' is (metaphorically) the broken bodies of those who have died for love. 'Tripping lightly' means that they are being reckless, even though they know the danger because of what has happened to those gone before.

the Queen of Hearts reference, I'll admit has always stumped me. I've always thought it had something to do with Alice in Wonderland, but couldn't quite tease it out.

'Making hay' I've always thought was short for 'making hay while the sun shines.' In my family, one generation off the farm, that phrase was used to mean 'having fun, sexual or otherwise, while the opportunity presented itself.'

'I loved too much, by such and such, is happiness thrown away.' Clearly, intense passion can, and often does, lead to intense misery.

'I gave her the gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret sign. . .' OK, here I think he's playing with te old legends of 'bard as initiate' and is betraying (or at least reavealing) the secrets of mortal mages to his fairy lover.

'And word and tint, I did not stint'. . .before I saw the actual lyrics, I'd always thought it was 'with words intent', which to me makes more sense.

Perhaps he is an artist as well as a poet, and is praising her in paint and in poetry.

'I gave her poems to say/ with her own name there, and her shiny dark hair/ like clouds over fields of May.'

He writes her love poetry. Clear enough.

Now, IMHO, the song skips over the breakup and straight into the aftermath. 'where old ghosts meet' refers to meeting up with an old lover. . .in a sense you are both changed, and 'ghosts' of who you were when you were together.

and who among us hasn't walked hurriedly away from an old boy/girlfriend one chances upon unexpectedly, hoping that he/she hasn't seen us.

'For I have wooed, not as I should, a creature made of clay. . .' He *should* have wooed a mortal such as himself, a 'creature made of clay' instead of the ethereal fairy.

'For when the angel woos the clay, he'll lose his wings at the dawn of the day.'

OK, here's where my interpretation breaks down. Wouldn't be the first time that fairies have been equated with angels, and there is a long tradition of fairies losing their immortality and angels losing their wings over the love of a mortal. But shouldn't the pronoun be feminine. Three posibilities: 1) Paddy got sloppy. 2) The 'he' is the universal 'he' . . .as in back in the day when talking of a generic individual in writing, said invidiual was always presumed to be masculine, as in 'the doctors, they did this ' or 'the doctor, he did this'; 'the soldiers, they did this', the soldier, he did that.' Or in this case, 'the angels, they lose their wings' 'The angel, he loses his wings.' or 3) I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.

Anyway, in a nutshell, poet meets fairy queen, they fall in love, it ends unhappily off-stage, (perhaps because she is unwilling to sacrifice her immortality?). He sees her once again, she walks away without speaking to him, and he is mourning for what was lost.

So that's my take. Opinions?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST,Jay
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM

Any interpretation of the poem/song should begin with the realization that "her dark hair" does not refer to the hair on her head.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

Not necessarily. Some of my family are rich; I'm not.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 10:47 AM

But surely if he was a member of the 'political aristocracy', he wouldn't have been so broke?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:19 AM

My memory is vague, but it was an aunt of Kavanagh's, I think, who was mixed up in the creamery.

The political aristocracy: follow the line through The Bird Flanagan.

He was always broke, this is true; he was a jobless alcoholic poet, which isn't generally a great career choice if you want to make money.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 08:10 AM

According to Quinn, the Monument Creamery belonged to John Ryan. He knew Kavanagh well but the two weren't related. Ryan did treat K to an odd meal in the Creamery in Grafton Street and a drink or two in the Bailey (which as far as I can remember Ryan owned) but he didn't provide regular subsidy or sponsorship. Bishop McQuid also slipped K an odd fiver. But K was always broke. He owed everybody: family, friends, bank, publishers (advances didn't last long), landlords, gas man, electricity board, etc.                                                               

'Woven into the political aristocracy', what's the source of that questionable statement?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Mar 08 - 06:31 AM

Ah yes, but his cousins were creamery kings, and an uncle, wasn't it, was The Bird Flanagan - he was woven in with the political aristocracy. He got regular payments - "the creamery money" - from family interests.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 11:07 AM

His father James was a cobbler: not dirt poor but certainly not well off.

He didn't interview the Beatles. He denounced the cult of the Beatles but then declared him 'a Beatle fan'. He praised Ian Paisley, then a real bogeyman in the Republic. He liked to gain attention by saying outrageous things. He was certainly an awkward customer. Personally, I think his 'genius' is somewhat overated. But if his 'soul' and Yeats' technical poetical skills could have been combined, that would have been some poet!

Antoinette Quinn's biography 'Partick Kavanagh' (2001) is a fair, detailed and critical account of his life and work.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 04:49 AM

Again, Wiki - the full version of Fáinne Gheal an Lae. My knowledge of 18th-century Irish isn't great - or even modern Irish - but I think some of the spellings may be the result of mistaken scanning. My translation is rough and loose.

    Maidin moch do ghabhas amach,
    Ar bruach Locha Léin;
    An Samhradh teacht's an chraobh len'ais,
    Is ionrach te ón ngréin,

    Ar thaisteal dom trí bhailte
    poirt is bánta mine réidhe,
    Cé a gheobhainn le máis ach an chúileann deas,
    Le fáinne geal an lae.

(Early morning, I went out by the banks of Loch Lein. Summer coming, the branch beside me wonderfully warm from the sun; me travelling through the village, fields and medows smooth and tidy, who comes towards me but that nice girl, at the bright dawn of the day.)

    Ní raibh bróg ná stoca, caidhp ná clóc;
    Ar mo stóirin óg ón spier,
    Ach folt fionn órga sios go troigh,
    Ag fás go barr an théir.

    Bhí calán crúite aici ina glaic,
    'S ar dhrúcht ba dheas a scéimh,
    Do rug barr gean ar Bhéineas deas,
    Le fáinne geal an lae.

(My young darling from the sky wore no shoe or stocking, cap or cloak, but a fair mass of golden hair fell feet to the grass. A milking-pail in her grasp, and the dew nicely ....dunno... some comparison to Venus... at the bright dawn of the day.)

    Do shuigh an bhrideog sios le m'ais,
    Ar bhrinse glas den fhéar,
    Ag magadh léi bhios dá maiomh go pras,
    Mar mhnaoi nach scarfainn léi.

    'S é dúirt í liomsa, "imigh uaim,
    Is scaoil ar siúl mé a réic",
    Sin iad aneas na soilse ag teacht,
    Le fáinne geal an lae.

(The maiden sat down by my side, on a green grassy bench, I was prompt in flirting with her, to be my wife and not to separate. She said to me: "Go from me, and let me go, you rake." That's it, with the light coming up, at the bright dawn of the day.)

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Mar 08 - 04:36 AM

Reading this with half attention - is someone trying to make the case that Luke Kelly *wrote* Raglan Road??? Heavens!

If so, it's simply settled; the poem's first date of publication should be well enough known.

Kavanagh, a sad, bitter alcoholic genius, was one of a group of poets of the first generation of the Irish state, along with Donagh MacDonagh, Valentin Iremonger, Brendan Behan, Pádraig Fallon, Ben Kiely - I'm just reeling off names here, and have left many honourable poets unnamed.

He came from a fairly well-off family - wasn't his family the owner of the Monument Creamerires? - but as a poet he lived a rather hand-to-mouth life.

He was known in all the newspapers, where he worked as a freelance - he'd wander into the Catholic Standard and start writing a piece on a typewriter there, then unreel the roll of paper and wander onwards to The Irish Times or The Irish Press and continue.

When he came to file his copy, it would be multicoloured and in different typefaces from all the typewriters he'd used to make up the story.

One legend has him interviewing the Beatles for the Catholic Standard, but I don't know if that's true or not. Seems to be apocryphal, unfortunately.

These young poets of the 1940s brought out literary magazines such as The Bell in which they published new work, and also sold poems, articles and stories abroad.

The next generation - the generation of the Dubliners - came out of a new vision of the same tradition. People like Luke Kelly and Ronnie Drew have links to Behan and his extended family, and also to the theatre world of the time.

Luke Kelly's beautiful interpretation of Kavanagh's poem is just that, an interpretation.

By the way, Wikipedia lists On Raglan Road as having been first published in the Irish Press in October 1946 under the title Dark-Haired Miriam Ran Away.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 11:08 AM

above as a clicky
the two clips merged are the ones discussed earlier on the rte raglan rd page

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 10:37 AM

Please excuse me if this link has already been given somewhere in this very long thread. I came across this version of Raglan Road the other day on YouTube which begins with Patrick Kavanagh singing part of the first verse unaccompanied, which is then merged into Luke Kelly singing the rest of the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBndHNJoC0k

Cheers.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:24 AM

Thanks Murray.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 06:54 PM

I don't think there is a link on the thread so far to the (all too brief ) clip of Kavanagh singing the fragment of Raglan Road, so Here it is,

Kavanagh's brief segment occurs within the first ninety seconds.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:51 PM

Yea, OK Tootler.

Last time I was in Dublin, about 3 years ago, I took a pic of 19 Raglan Road (and the Grand Canal bridge that Paddy fell over, thrown over according to him). If anyone wants to see them, just PM me their email. (The pics aren't particularly good as I was pretty new to the digi camera at the time).

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM

That's not how I read it. But perhaps we should leave it at that is it's not worth bickering over.

Your adding the dates subsequent to "meself's" message certainly cleared things up in my mind which had been left hazy as a result of earlier discussions on this and other Raglan Road threads.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 03:18 PM

The point 'meself' was making was that Kiely's comment in his book couldn't be trusted. He didn't offer any kind of evidence. I don't know if he has some kind of agenda or not. Whatever, it's a daft idea.

Kavanagh worked for the 'Standard' between August 1945 and April 1947. I suspect that Kavanagh took the lyric into the office shortly after he had written it, very probably in 1945.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:23 PM

I think the point "meself" was making is that without I vital piece of information - the date when the event described in Big Tim's post of 23 Mar 08 - 12:25 PM, then the assertion that "Kavanagh himself set the melody, not Luke Kelly, or anybody else" was not proven.

This was cleared up by Big Tim in his subsequent post, though I did think, Big Tim, that if you had gone back and read your original post more carefully, you might have picked up the point that "meself" was making and there was really no need to be so huffy. We did not all know what you evidently knew, nor was there any reason why you should have assumed we did.

In fact once you had given us all the information, it cleared up for me the issue of who chose the tune for Raglan road which did seem up till then to have been a bit uncertain.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

Thanks for that link Robbie, great to see a photo of Hilda in her old age. Kavanagh's poem 'Bluebells for Love', considered by critics to be his best love poem, (tho I don't think so) was also inspired by Hilda. (btw, It's Ben Kiely, not Kielty!).

Kavanagh has a 20 track CD called 'Almost Everying'. He 'sings' only one song, the rest being poetry readings. Sadly, 'On Raglan Road' is not included.

Kavanagh's 'Collected Poems' (1964) gives the title as 'On Raglan Road' and the air as 'The Dawning of the Day'.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:13 AM

I've watched the clip of kavanagh singing Raglan Rd and the bit of Self Portrait Documentary. They seem to me to be different parts of the same session: he is wearing the same jacket, shirt and tie. The clip is from 1962, several years before Luke Kelly's one and only meeting with the man, which kind of settles the issue beyond the reach of those who would doubt Kiely's word. It also settles the Autumn, August debate.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:37 AM

In fact if you watch all the clips on the rte page you will see Luke Kelly is in the room while Mr Kietly tells his story and he does not challenge it in any way. Incidentally Kelly says that Kavanagh suggested he should sing "Raglan Rd", rather than either Miriam or the dawning of the day perhaps adding a little weight to the idea that the song already had this title rather than being subsequently renamed by the Dubs. Not at all conclusive but perhaps just a little more weight in the scale.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:29 AM

On the recent bbc4 documentary they showed a short clip of Paddy K himself singing the song. Does anyone know when this was from and if the whole thing is accessible?

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:24 AM

You could always watch and listen to mr Kielty himself rte kavanagh page and then weigh this up against your recollectio of what someone once told you ,before you casting aspersions on the mans word

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 04:42 AM

I just can't imagine Ben Kiely (1919-2007) lying about something like that. He was a man of great integrity. In 1999, RTE did a docu on Luke Kelly in which he sang 'Raglan Road' and no mention was made of him having played any part in suggesting the traditional melody. Surely if he had that was the time to say so. In fact Kavanagh sang the song to Kelly in the Bailey pub in Dublin around 1966. So Luke got the whole song, words and melody from Paddy.

Kavanagh lived at 19 Raglan Road, Dublin 1943-44. So he may well have spotted Hilda Moriarty on that very street. Hilda was a medical student, later a prominent psychiatrist. She died in 1991. When Kavanagh first met her, he was engaged to Nola o'Driscoll, daughter of Michael Collins' sister Margaret. The Kavanagh/Hilda "romance" was certainly well over by 10 January 1946, when Kavanagh published a short story, 'The Lay of the Crooked Knight', wryly describing how he pretended to change to please her,                                                               

'He put on an artificial accent…he had been fond of his bottle of stout…the lady advised him to take sherry…she told him not to smoke cigarettes except with a holder…she chose new clothes for him. "Bedad, I ought to plaze you now" he said in his excitement, showing the old vulgar tongue in all its grossness'.

Then one evening,

'He rang her on the phone, she was out...later that evening he rang again. Still not in…he went down the town…he could hardly believe his eyes…it was indeed she walking with a man whom the knight placed as…active young country solicitor.'

When Kavanagh died, Hilda sent a wreath of red roses shaped as an 'H'.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: meself
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM

As I said. Take Kelly's name out of my second question and my questions still stand, however. Sorry if you don't like them.

Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:31 PM

Benedict Kiely was talking about 1945 or 46 when Luke Kelly was aged about 5 or six! You're right meself, you know nothing about the matter.