BS: Opinions wanted re: music project

Subject: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: MMario
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:37 AM

okay - stupid question of the day. (What is probably stupidest is asking for opinons on this forum. I have to be certifiable!) I *think* I can predict some of the answers.

Is there/would there be any value to people in posting the bronson tunes with "best guess" matches to the lyrics. I'm talking about JUST the tunes with say one verse of lyric - none of the (still under copyright)commentary etc.

Probably not including the variations noted either - as for some of the tunes there are upwards of 20 or 30 variations noted for the basic melody.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:18 AM

You'll probably be expecting me to say:

Unless you provide the source information for each example, you risk creating great confusion and giving people the impression that they're all interchangeable; bear in mind, too, that some of the tunes in Bronson came from people still living and were included by permission.  In many cases, there are a number of quite different tune groups associated with different versions of a song; posting tunes without making this clear would be confusing at best.  I'm not sure that tunes really ought to be given without their full associated texts, where those are available.

I assume you're talking about the "condensed" version? The full set has, for example, 141 tune variants, by no means all related, for Child #4 alone (and additional material in the Addenda)...

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: MMario
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:37 AM

Malcolm I figured on using the same rule of thumb as for other copyrights; (pre 1923, isn't it?) and linking text with the tune - but not actually setting the text of all lyrics to the tune. The source information should be okay to include, those are simple facts. Putting in the comentary of course runs into copyright problems. I suppose each tune could be tagged with something such as "Bronson catorgorizes this as part of "Group B" of the American sub-group of child 105A"

I only have access so far to the condensed one volume version. I am willing (and stupid enough) to do the whole shot but don't have access to them.

This obviously isn't something that will happen overnight - I find that even if I have the time I can't manage more then four or five tunes at a stretch.

And it's something I will probably do anyway - but if more people are interested I'll work at it more consistantly and will look into possibly getting it webbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: IvanB
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM

I suppose it depends on what you hope to accomplish. If one is to take a scholarly approach to the problem, Malcolm's answer is certainly the right one. On the other hand, I'm not sure all the folk singers who are well known enough to be making beaucoup CD's, thus disseminating their particular versions of Child ballads, have necessarily taken a scholarly approach.

In many cases variant versions arose because someone didn't quite remember the tune and/or lyrics to a song and thus sang it in their own fashion. If the singer was of sufficient stature in a region, that might become the version of choice in that region. When I perform a ballad (and, admittedly, my audience is usually only those in a given group on Paltalk), I tend to choose a tune that I like and that scans well to the lyrics as I know them. By doing so, I'm acting in a decidedly unscholarly manner, but I'm not sure that I feel too guilty about that.

That said, I'm also not too sure that including only the basic tune from Bronson and a verse of lyrics that scan well to that tune would be all that helpful. In many cases much nicer tunes and/or lyrics are to be found among the variants. Somehow, it seems to me that the main value of Bronson is in its totality, enormous as that may be.

As a matter of fact, I have an ongoing project of scanning the entire set so I'm not dependent on the local library when I want to refer to it. I've completed only the first volume so far. Interestingly enough, my wife claimed she'd buy a used set for me (at $1,000 the last time I looked) if I'd get the basement cleaned up. In four months, I think I've cleaned enough to merit about ten pages. So much for my priorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

When revival performers have collated tunes and texts, they've usually got their raw material from sources like Bronson (or his sources), even when they haven't been specific about it; the potential value of this sort of thing is in making that source material more widely available in something like an "authentic" form, I'd say.

I'm at about the same stage as Ivan, having copied volume 1 and part of the addenda; when the students are away for their holidays I'll be back in the library slaving over a hot photocopier again.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: MMario
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 12:44 PM

Must be nice to have a copy available to copy.

*grin*

I've tried two different library interloan systems, neither of which have even the condensed version of Bronson in their collections.

Guess that's what I get for living in the boonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 12:49 PM

MMario,

As I've mentioned in a different thread, I'm more than happy to help you with the MIDI transcription.

However, I was a bit put off by Dick Greenhaus comment:

I've been working sporadically with the idea of an electronic edition of Bronson....(I have a few hundred processed so far).

I don't want to waste my time replicating work already done.

Let me know how I can best help, and I will.

Matt Harden
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 01:32 PM

My advice on this is that if you are going to do it, do it right--put together a group of folks that have already started down the path, and set some standards for selecting and matching, that way, whatever you do will be a useful resource to others--Keep in mind that there is a lot more that accurate transcriptions can be used for, besides simply being a source for performers(otherwise, there would be no purpose in documenting alternate or variant melodies)--

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: MMario
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 02:04 PM

M.Ted - part of the reason I asked about this. As I said - it's something I'm going to continue doing for myself anyway. I'm about an eighth of the way through the condensed version. But based on Bronson's numbering there are somewhere around 44 more tunes for Child's #2 alone. (god knows how many more - but face it - five volumes plus addenda were condensed down to one.)

Matt - I'm trying to figger it out. But we want minimum therbligs as well as minimized duplication of effort, right? and maximized participation would probably be nice. which means a niice calm public discussion is good.

Clarification - when I saw just the basic tune and one verse of lyrics. Notation is included (in some examples) for verse to verse variation in the melody. In the condensed version (I don't know about the full version) most of these have no notation with them to indicate WHICH verses they occur in - though at least one I've encountered so far very nicely marks each variation with WHICH verse it is for. That is the "variations" I said I wasn't going to include. But (for example) for Child #2 Bronson includes Nine variants in the condensed version - I've transcribed all nine.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:46 PM

Check out this web page called The Bronson Project. It isn't quite clear what they're up to, but it would be a shame to duplicate someone else's work.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: IvanB
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 07:58 PM

Well, I see our own Jeri is a team member so we probably should ask her. It appears, however, that the project's purpose is to put all the Bronson tunes into ABC format.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 08:48 PM

I'm not sure what's going on with Phil's Bronson Project. Yes, it consists of putting all the Bronson tunes into ABC. I got involved with it back in '96 or '97. I didn't have much time left after work, then I moved and lost contact.

The problem is, the only easy, inexpensive and commonly available way to write tunes to share back then was ABC. Now it seems midis are more popular. I can write in ABC, but it's extremely difficult for me. I can enter a midi from the sheet music in 5 - 10 minutes, and it took me a very frustrated hour or two per tune in ABC.

MMario, you could e-mail Phil and ask what's going on. I know others were probably working a lot faster than I, but I never saw any ABCs other than the ones I did. (I never asked, either. Phil basically collected them from us.)

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:52 AM

Bronson didn't "condense" the four volumes down to one. He wrote to me before it was published, asking what criteria I would use in selecting material for a single volume of "The Singing Tradition" of the ballads. I suggested that he simply choose those versions he found most "singable" or appealing. He responded quickly, pointing out that he was not attempting to produce "a song book," as such, for the folk revival. He would have considered that far too commercial an enterprise. So what you have is not a condensation, but a selection of versions of the ballads Bronson felt were especially representative.

I was under the impression that Dick Greenhaus was trying to make an arrangement with Princeton to put the entire work on the Web. Has this come to naught or is it still in process?

Mario: remember that many of the ballads included in the Bronson volumes were collected much more recently than the 1923 date you mention above. Collectors were gathering ballads all during the 30s, 40s and 50s and many of them gave Bronson permission to use their material. The ballads I gave him for inclusion (see the addenda in volume 4) were from field recordings I made in the 60s.

Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: MMario
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:11 PM

what I seem to be hearing here is "Don't bother"

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From:
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:28 PM

Please don't give up on the idea.

I believe you know Dick Greenhaus? Email him and find out the state of his project. Let us know the result.

The project that Jeri mentioned appears to be dead in the water.

I still think that there is massive scope for what you want to do, and I'm happy to help as best I can

Matt

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:48 PM

I guess I posted my comments to a Child thread--I'll paraphrase here. Yes I'm working on Bronson (and working with Princeton U. Press for permissions). The easy part is just reproducing Bronson. Next easiest, is transcribing the tunes in a playable fashion. Most difficult is fitting the words to the tunes, as task that's teejus, highly subjective and one that Bronson had trouble with. Ideally, the playable tunes (and words) should be cross-indexed to Child; this almost demands electronic publication. So far I've completed several hundred versions. It's slow work--I don't recommend breath-holding.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:04 PM

Dick, I mentioned that it's pretty easy for me to make a midi from sheet music. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Bronson. If there were some way for me to view the book, I'd be more than happy to help with that.

I'd started doing the tunes for Hugill's Shanties From the Seven Seas, but as I was doing it for my own benefit, I didn't get very far. Still, it only took 5 - 10 minutes per tune. Probably less once I got rolling.

If you can think of a way for me to help you, please let me know. Phil, from the Bronson Project mentioned above used to scan the pages in for me to transcribe but that may be too much of a bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From:
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM

Dick,

Is there any way in which a volunteer might help?

Matt

Subject: RE: BS: Opinions wanted re: music project
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:41 PM

Matt- Not at this point. Sooner or later, I'll be asking for volunteers to see if my fitting of words to music is reasonable.

Thanx anyway.