is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????

Subject: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:35 AM

I heard a wee snippitt on the news last night, anyone hear the whole story? Seems Baby Bushkins has sent military advisers to ex-soviet Georgia to help them defend against Russia... seems to me to be inviting the Russians to "loose" some hard ware into the hands of those who don't love us! THEN he goes and threatens Irac with the possible use of nukes! Now, for some queer reason, whenever folks get mad at policies like this, who do they decide to bomb? New YORK! JEEEZE! WE DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE LITTLE MOWRON! Think about it, he wants a right wing republican nation behind him, what better way than to get folks mad enough to kill yours truely and the rest of my neighbors, which alone could make it very hard to ever elect a democat again in this nation, and besides, give him the go ahead to destroy ALL opposition to his facsist plans... and there we are... Larry's ashes glowing in the dark and you out there in the rest of the world cleaning up the mess and living under the thumb of an America out of controll. This may sound like the old conspiracy theories gone nutz, but hell, when you are living on ground zero, and hear that the Feds didn't even tell our city gov. when they thought there was a good chance NYC was to be nuke, well ya get to thinking late at night... treasure them Sorcha Dorcha CDs, they may be all ya hear of me one day soon!
Grinning nervously...
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:47 AM

Whether it's true or not Larry, the worst thing that has come out of 9/11 in many ways is the sense of empowerment by Dubya and his minions. We are in deep shit on a lot of fronts!

Spaw

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:58 AM

I dont scare easily, but, that clown scares me. Remember that movie, "King of hearts"?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:14 AM

I hope you don't think us poor souls in the UK feels any safer with Bush's 'strategy'! Tony Blair seems to be bent on giving anyone who dislikes Bush's approach someone to hit who won't upset the US quite as much as hitting New York again

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:22 AM

There once was a 51st State movement, for NYC to become an independant state... I think it is time for New York to become and independant nation! A FRIENDLY ONE! Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:50 AM

Do you remember the old joke about Ronald Reagan being asked what would he do if he knew that there was a nuclear strike heading towards the US - "well first thing, I'd get all the waggons round in a circle.....".

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM

I hate to say I told you so.........wait..........no I don't..........I told you a long time ago. I believe it was a response to DougR. I will have to dig it out. It went something like, he will do a nice job on the limited front of going after the Taliban, but he will have major foreign policy screwups and put us in peril in the world. He has that "manifest destiny" bullshit going on and it is dangerous. Between that, and the economy, he is going to have much to answer for.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:17 AM

Circling the wagons may sound funny but, as I recall, Reagan actually proposed that we respond to a nuclear attack by digging holes, climbing in and placing wooden doors on top of the hole.

Shrub The Usurper (U.S. President Per Curiam) and all his minions represent the final dominance of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about. They need war or the serious threat of war to keep the money flowing into their coffers and will not tolerate any policy that seems to offer peace.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:26 AM

As I read it, he's falling hook line and sinker for a suicidal game plan set up by Bin Laden or whoever organised September 11th. One prime goal being to set up a division with the USA and a few cronies on one side, and the rest of the world turned into enemies. A few regimes being overthrown and a few thousand (or even a gfew million) people being killed, thta's just part of the game. You sacrifice pieces when you are playing chess, even main pieces.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM

Within the USA various kind of long cherished values get stripped away as a sort of "Americanist" fundamentalism takes over. Outside the little wars built, and the big weapons start coming into play.

The end result - a new world in which enormous number of people have been killed, global capitalism has destroyed itself, and all kinds of fundamentalists strangeness takes over. Maybe Fortress America will be sort of safe, very likely not.

It's like something out of a war games scenario.And I seriously think it's likely that it is exactly that, plotted by people who know their way round all that kind of thing.

And the only people who can stop that happening are the people of the United States. Anything that anybody else does just makes it worse.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:35 AM

I have never in my life hated a politician the way I hate this man. He is stupid, monomaniacal, dishonest, and has done a lousy job raising his kids. Now he is taunting those who, if we were willing to be patient, could have been worked with. (sorry about the syntax) I think he has been screwing up the Middle East as well, by supporting the Sharon government, instead of working on a real peace. The Palistinians are not the only terrorists there.

I keep hearing about the overwhelming support the man has, and the support for his war. But I can't find any of this amongst the people I know.

And can someone please tell me WHY the Republicans always TALK about cutting the budget, but in reality they always push us toward deficit spending?

I grew up in an actively Republican household. Bush Senior started my Dad's moving away, and Shrub sent my Mom completely over the edge.

Cami

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Peg
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM

This whole thing is so unspeakable and ridiculous I can't even discuss it.

It is 1988 all over again (when I thought Reagan would use his last days in power to fulfill his destiny as destroyer of Panet Earth.

Anyone who can go see the movie "Donnie Darko" (in limited arthouse release at the moment) go see it. It resonates with this fear and unease, even though it does not deal directly with it.

Peg

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:52 AM

Ever wonder whatever happened to the anthrax? The anthrax that was only specifically targeted to Democrats and the "Liberal News Media"? Where did that go? And what about those two women who died from it, and whose exposure could never be traced to any source? And who nobody seemed to know. Does all of this seem a little too convient in the minds of anyone besides me?

Am I going to get into trouble for saying that? Do we still have freedom of speech in this country? Did we ever?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM

I have a friend who theorized that it was Trent Lott sending the anthrax. I'm sure it was an "American"

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:15 AM

If you're all saying: "These guys are crazy, so we got to give them whatever they want so they won't nuke us!", say so in so many words.

If you're trying to say something else, say it in understandable terms.

If you're trying to say G. W. Bush is stupid and/or crazy and/or crooked, the answer is: "He may be any of those, but he's the President until he dies, is impeached, or his term (more likely terms, with his present popularity) expire(s). Assuming none of you are assassins, you can either find grounds and support for impeaching him, support him, or get out of the way. The third option doesn't preclude your grumbling from a distance, but don't pout if no one listens."

I'm not a great Bush supporter myself, but there's such a thing as an open mind. Seems like we got a lot of Vietnam-era leftovers on here who assume that anything the government does is necessarily evil. Which is as dumb as assuming it's necessarily good. I think.

Peter.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:18 AM

CarolC: My lawyer wife, this morning on her way to work, said, "I wish you didn't have to post that, but I think it is about our survival." My octigenarian (but kick-butt sparky) mum said, when I told her about this post, "I agree you had to say that... but watch your back walking down the street...". Now perhaps the paranoia is not justified, but doesn't it speak to the spreading belief that treasured american principles have been sacrificed more and more? Well my dears, I believe we are now singing for our lives and for the lives of the planit, so lets sing loudly for peace.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:26 AM

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

I'm so sad. The nasty fascist police are going to come take Carol C away for uttering forbidden statements. Can CamiSu be far behind? Damn. Then Larry's gonna get nuked, all as part of the president's insiduous plan to get re-elected. Dear me, I'm afraid he might do that to Oregon, too, because we forgot to vote for him. Sure, we don't have that many electoral votes, but what differnce will that make to an egomaniac?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:34 AM

Skys falling? Been down to Chambers Street in the past six months? Can I send ya a little grey dust from my apartment? Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:37 AM

One more reason your safe in Origon, Lep. First, you have lucky charms... (wink) and B, we have the UN. Bushikins gets that blown up and the world would jump in line to get the big bad american army to save em... Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:39 AM

Easy for you to say, leprechaun. However, I've already found out what authority figures can do to people they don't like. Maybe you would have a difficult time believing some of the things that have happened to me. Fortunately they are a matter of public record, so I don't really have to do anything to prove them.

I'd be happy to provide details in a PM if you want.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM

"If you're all saying: "These guys are crazy, so we got to give them whatever they want so they won't nuke us!", say so in so many words.

"If you're trying to say something else, say it in understandable terms."

What I'm saying anyway is that the way in which Bush and his minders are responding is the way that they are meant to respond by the people who organised September 11th. It's not a question of "give them whatever they want" - that is precisely what is already being done.

In the name of protecting America and defending democracy, things are being done that point the way towards the subversion of democracy, and the destruction of what has been meant by "America".

And those aren't crazy people, except in a philosophical sense. They are totally committed to a vision of the future which is very different from the way things are now, and their own death and the death of other people is not a significant factor in determining what they do. And at present it looks as if they are set to win.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:19 AM

I would urge anyone who is concerned and maybe feeling as though there is nothing they can do, to visit www.moveon.org. At least when you sign one of their petitions, speak out, etc. your voice is being heard.

I get frustrated living in the middle of third-world Wyoming where the entrenched Good Ol' Boy's GOP runs roughshod over everyone. It feels so futile to even raise a voice here. Staying in touch with the moveon.org folks at least alleviates some of that feeling of helplessness.

Thanks, Larry

kat

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:22 AM

I think Bush's handlers may be telling him to "say": "Crazy? You bet I'm goddamned crazy." Could be a good strategy under the circumstances, so long as they don't REALLY go bombing all over the world.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Peg
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:40 AM

So Bush is a moron and his handlers (who are clearly running the country at the moment) are insane? That seems to be the gist.

And Peter, we live in a democracy (believe it or not). This means our citizens are encouraged to voice dissent. It is patently absurd for anyone to say that just because someone is our designated leader (last time I checked he did not actually win the election) we must "support" him, or "get out of the way." Gimme a break. Would you say this to the people who have had to live under the tyranny of Hitler? Idi Amin? Castro? Milosevic? And yes, as a matter of fact, I think there ARE similarities.

The very idea of returning to a world in which nuclear exchange is a discussable option is outrageous. Mutually assured destruction was volatile and unwise and that is one of the reasons Clinton voted to dismantle old warheads and to NOT replace them with more. Gee whillikers, ya think that's also a reason why we had such economic bounty and a SURPLUS to hand over to the Republicans, who have now driven us into unfathomable debt in the TRILLIONS of dollars (ten times the amount Reagan managed, and he racked up national debt to a greater amount tahn it had been during all the preceding presidencies COMBINED before him), with their asinine military build-up and idiotic foray back into the La-La Land, Candy Planet, "We're Number One!" world where the SDI will actually function?

Has anyone considered that to an unstable country like Libya, or Iraq, such threats are rallying cries, and not mere policy wonking or strategic posturing?

We don't even get "Protect and Survive" manuals here...good luck to all the war-mongers out there; mayhap they can cloak themselves in their self-righteousness to protect them from the Blast?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:50 AM

Quite sad.

Art

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:12 PM

good luck to all the war-mongers out there; mayhap they can cloak themselves in their self-righteousness to protect them from the Blast?

They probably don't need to. They're probably the shadow government that is hiding out in bunkers all over the country. Hmmm... maybe they're on to something there.

Ok everybody! Time to start building the backyard bunkers again! Grab your shovels!

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:15 PM

Last night Bill Maher made the point that he thinks it's 'wise' to remind everybody in the world that if/when a weapon of mass destruction is unleashed in our country that the country of origin will be held responsible, and as such, be at risk of nuclear response...

He's got a point, I suppose. But, an eye for an eye until everyone is blind policy is not diplomacy, and certainly not sustainable.

I agree with McGrath that our official policy(?)is playing very effectively into the plans and desires of those who want to hurt us. No one in authority seems to even be questioning kneejerk violence.

Where are our elders and statesmen and wise women.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:24 PM

Who are the terrorists,they are people that hate Americans,and why ,because they are support the Sharon Goverment in they actions against the Arabs(Muslem),Cant anyone understand that American tanks American Planes are killing Arabs,they are Muslems.Can you find any other countries that are being terrorised. I may not know how to spell,but I have enough sense to know that the actions of the American Goverment,may eventually kill us all . I am not an American or arab,but my name is also Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,flora
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:25 PM

Has it not occurred to the Bush administration (re: leaked documents in the LA Times) that if they bomb any of the seven named countries, someone else will be pissed off enough to bomb back, quite possible also nuclear weapons. The only way to avoid this is to actually blow the whole of the the rest of the world.....oh wait....that's the plan.....
But seriously, this leaked documant was leaked for a reason, but even if that reason was only to scare people, it's succeeded in pissing off many millions around the world. Naming Russia and China as potential nuclear targets? That's clever.... What if someone decides on a pre-emptive attack? see english.pravda.ru for the Russian viewpoint (can someone do a clickie there?)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:28 PM

Pravda Forum

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 12:47 PM

Here we go again. Someone shouts "fire" and we trample each other getting to the exits. What EXACTLY did Bush say? That might be a good starting place for a rational discussion.

I am NOT a fan of George Bush's politics. I think he is a rank amateur when it comes to foreign policy worldwide, although I believe his handling of the specifics of the action in Afghanistan has been pretty good. I think he is also a Voodoo Economics priest of the highest order, believing that unfettered and unregulated business is bound to benefit the country. I believe that he lacks in-depth knowledge on nearly every topic of importance that he will address as president, which is why he prides himself on asking his advisers "what's the bottom line?"

BUT (and its a big but), I do not hate the man. I try to understand his motivations, and by doing so, his actions seem less crazy and more propelled by his ignorance of diplomacy, his lack of understanding of America's place on the world stage, and his understandable anger over the events of 9/11. In the posts above, I see a lot of blind hatred and disgust toward Bush. I learned long ago that hatred provides no solid ground for the defeat of your enemy. You are better served to see him as a human being with strengths and weaknesses, and to use his weaknesses against him to help him bring about his own defeat.

Iraq is a very troubling area. As long as Sadam Hussein is in power there, his regime will pursue nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare in violation of his own peace agreement allowing inspection. Does anyone doubt that he would use such weapons against the people of the US, and any other country who participated in his defeat in the Persian Gulf War? Or that he will provide weapons and assistance of any imaginable kind to anyone who pursues violent acts against the citizens of these countries? Would it be better to move against him now or wait until he has an even greater stockpile of weapons to use against us?

Our citizens, innocent and blameless, were murdered en masse on 9/11. Do you really think that pursuing a policy of peaceful non-violence or even sympathetic understanding will dissuade the people who perpetrated this action? You must somehow separate our legitimate will to justice and our need for continued survival from this man who, for better or worse, happened to be in office when this happened.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:04 PM

Lonesome EJ: re Our citizens, innocent and blameless, were murdered en masse on 9/11. , that's not addressing the fact that there were people of many nationalities that died in the World Trade Centers (and of course, many that got out). I think I remember reading that 16 nations were represented.

We seem to be considering only the views of people/nations that are willing to go along with our plans to make war. What about the others? Do we really believe that no one has a better grasp of the problems and solutions?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: JenEllen
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:11 PM

They will not, being Greeks, ravage Greek territory nor burn habitations, and they will not admit that in any city all the population are their enemies, men, women, and children, but will say that only a few at any time are their foes, those, namely, who are to blame for the quarrel. And on these considerations they will not be willing to lay waste the soil, since the majority are their friends, nor to destroy the houses, but will carry the conflict only to the point of compelling the guilty to do justice by the pressure of the suffering of the innocent. ~Plato The Republic, Book 5

As both an NRDC and an RMEF supporter/activist, I have been nothing but appalled by this man's actions from day one, so I can't be surprised that he is turning the disregard for his own country outwards to others.

All of the personal judgments (the guy's a jackass, the wife is moronic, the kids are a disgrace) are easily shrugged off, hell, I don't like a LOT of people, but his political actions are inexcusable. I am continually reminded of spoiled children of my acquaintance, it doesn't matter what, but it has to happen NOW!! Example? The post-9/11 coverage? The majority of the public may have been numbed, but they certainly weren't stupid. If 'we' knew who was behind attacks, why weren't they prevented? (not the particulars, the generals: we knew Bin Laden was trouble, why let it get that far?) And if we didn't know who was responsible, then why waste time/lives/resources to make a big show of ruffling our wounded feathers?

The same lack of forethought is shown daily in attempts to manage our own country. You can check out the NRDC website for yourself and see the amount of destruction and ill- judgment that is running rampant on the Hill. Immediacy being the key motivator for most actions--We need this NOW--but I suppose it makes a twisted sort of sense, we might as well get all the goodies we can from the world/environment before the 'enemy' blows us all to hell, right? The news 'leaks', if that is what they were, only served to confuse and enrage an already unsteady political world. Where there should be thought before action, we find the reverse. Again.

Larry, all I can truly offer you is sympathy. No one should have to live under a cloud of fear.

~J

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:11 PM

I dont worry about being arrested for speaking out against the government. My voice not only does not count, it is not even heard. The facists are in power, and, they need an enemy to stay in power. If they can drag this out for another three years, they will stay in control, and be re elected.(If their insane policies don't get us blown to hell first). I dont see China as a possible threat, we are their best market for all kinds of goods. Ideals are great, but, Money makes the mare go.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM

Larry, back to your original post, about what you heard on the news (about the US military advisors sent to Georgia). I seriously doubt that any of this will lead to hostilities of any kind between the US and Russia. The US advisors are there not to protect Georgia against Russia, but to advise the Georgian army on how to deal with the "terrorists" in the Pankisi Gorge. The Pankisi Gorge has been sort of a haven for Chechen refugees and separatists for years, and Russia (which still has troops stationed in Georgia, btw) has been threatening to invade the region to wipe out these "terrorists." But the Georgians didn't want Russian help...

Now, Russia has officially expressed its support for the US aid, but of course isn't really happy about it. Sort of emasculating to have your former subjects join forces with your former enemy to fight your genocidal battles for you. But they can't complain too much, can they? :)

The part that worries me about all of this: After an emboldened Georgian military finishes mopping up the Pankisi Gorge, they might just go ahead and attack the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (both hosts to Russian 'peacekeepers'), ending any chances for a peaceful resolution to these disputes. War, chaos, dead people, etc. :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 01:40 PM

NPR reported this week that the anthrax attacks were all domestic.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,Native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:19 PM

Concider this,the Canadian Goverment desided to send a column of tanks,supported by aircraft ,and 20000 soldiers(if they can find them),down into the States,to free the Americans from the terrorists.On the way down they knocked down a few hundred houses,run over hundreds of Americans. They have to do this to protect Canada,from softwood duties,besides they get invaded every summer by 100000s Americans....Then they would surround the White house. WHAT WOULD YOU DO/,you cant say,you would bomb the tanks to hell,you dont have planes,artillary,or tanks,all you have are hand gun and a few automatic weapons.The solution is to appeal to the United Nations

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM

A couple of interesting notes:

Bush talking about the WTC terrorists, They didn't think we were a nation that could conceivably sacrifice for something greater than our self, that we were soft, that we were so self-absorbed and so materialistic that we wouldn't defend anything we believed in. My, were they wrong. They just were reading the wrong magazine, or watching the wrong Springer show," said Bush.
Bush was speaking at a White House East Room event celebrating national championships won by seven National Collegiate Athletic Association teams.


From the Mirror-UK

DEFIANT SADDAM TAUNTS BUSH AND BLAIR

By James Hardy And Mark Dowdney        

                
SADDAM Hussein yesterday defied US threats to strike at Iraq, declaring: "They don't scare us."
The tyrant spoke out as Foreign Secretary Jack Straw told MPs that Iraq posed a "severe" threat to security - but military action was a "last resort".

Mocking war plans by President Bush and Tony Blair, Saddam told supporters in Baghdad: "Recent futile threats will not scare your country. It has reached such a level that threats will not intimidate it."

He denounced US Vice President Dick Cheney's 11-nation Middle East tour to win support for military action against Iraq as "wicked".
And on a bloody day in which 38 died in the West Bank and Gaza, he showed his contempt for the West by doubling to £15,000 the cash he gives the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
President Bush has repeatedly warned Saddam that Iraq faces "consequences" if it continues to ban UN weapons inspectors.

In Britain, Mr Straw told the Commons that Iraq represented a "severe threat to international and regional security as a result of its continuing development of weapons of mass destruction".
There was "overwhelming and compelling evidence" of such weapons.
Before UN inspectors were thrown out of the country in 1998, he said, they found 4,000 tonnes of chemicals used in weapons production, 610 tonnes used in nerve gas, and 31 chemical weapons munitions.
The inspectors must now be allowed to return to do their job "without obstruction".

As MPs of all parties warned against a rush to extend the war on terror, Mr Straw said military action against Iraq could not be ruled out.

But, faced with a growing Labour rebellion, he added: "I strongly accept you don't take military action without clear evidence - and, where it is clear, this is a last resort.

"We have to be cautious and ensure the decisions we make have the support of the international community."
Later, he told a meeting of Labour MPs the threat of attack was being used to force Saddam to allow inspectors back. Aides said Mr Straw was trying to "reassure" backbenchers that the Government would not rush in.

Mr Cheney arrived in Jordan yesterday where King Abdullah said a strike on Iraq would have "dangerous repercussions" on stability and the war on terrorism.

Retired US General Wesley Clark, who oversaw Nato's Kosovo campaign, told Radio Four yesterday overthrowing Saddam would need "several hundred thousand" troops.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,native
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:23 PM

TO MUDCAT do you realize this is sedition?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:44 PM

In a conversation the other day, I accidently called an album titled "Peace & Love" "Peace & War", given the odd strings of thought that runs through my discussions I mentioned what a shame it was that you can't have both Peace and War with a country at the same time. Only, this is exactly what we have with Afganistan right now, isn't it? If you're an Afgan citizen and a plane drops something overtop of you, it might be food or it might be a cluster bomb. Or maybe some of the propaganda we've been dropping via airplane as well. Of course this is just a comidic thought, not real. We're not dropping much of any sort of food on Afganistan... we're causing disruption enough to starve millions and feeding a few thousand. The World Food Program has been quoted as saying "We might as well be dropping pamphlets" (ironic since we're doing that too, now). Meanwhile stopped many truckloads of food from coming through the border. We're like the Mafia, killing Bid Ladens brethren to punish him.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:57 PM

Bone, would you likewise criticize our actions in Bosnia? Highly criticized at the time as punishing the innocent and being an unwinnable police action, the result has been peace, stability, and justice.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 02:57 PM

Hey, where's DougR? It's interesting, getting these differing viewpoints. If only the US government was as interested!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:11 PM

Oh, and here's a link to some good articles about the Pankisi Gorge situation: *cleeck*

There's sure to be Pankisi info on (place your favourite news site here), as well. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:18 PM

Sedition, hell!

True patriotism is the courage
to question conventional wisdom..


..or stupidity, as the case may be.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:27 PM

THanks Lupis: I was just about to post something like that... at the latest rehersal, I asked the band members if they heard the report, as I said, I just caught a snatch... and it is as you said, a possition favored by the Russians, unfortunalty the insergents are Moslem! Well, just what we need eh...? "This is not a war on Moslems..." just seems we are going around the world seeking more of em to kill? Oh my my my my... if only I had a functioning liver... what I wouldn't give for a nice single malt wishkey about now...
Cheers,m'dears,
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 03:38 PM

Has anyone got any links or sources we can go to for the NPR report katlaughing mentioned about the anthrax attacks being domestic in origin?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM

What ol' bobert is concerned about other than those things that so many have allready posted, is the all out assault on the Ist Ammendment. Just like Lil'VanBone pointed out, our policies are starving Afgans. But why isn't this on the 6:00 news? Because the administration has scared the hell out of the media. And they've scared the hell out of people in Congress by lamblasting Dascle. They have let it be known that there is only one story... THEIRS. "Step out of line, the man come and take you away."

There was a board meeting this past weekend by Pacifica PBS and one of the issues that was to be discussed was the possibility of refusing the federal money because the government is now trying to tie censorship to sponsorship of PBS stations. This may account for your local PBS station starting all of a sudden getting real bland and not lieing but also steering carefully away from the TRUTH.

Yep, it really hasn't taken Junior and Co, too long to put their long range plans into effect. They goaded the Arab world into striking and in the aftermath have systematicly rolled back the rights of American people. They now control the media, which is something that every administration for the last 40 years has unsuccessfully tried to do. Ya got to hand it to them. They are as tough as they are evil and mean spirited. Their goal, of course, is to gobble up as much of the earth and its resources as they can, while they can. Heck, they bought Junior and now they want their payoffs.

Well, as long as I don't read on the front page where tanks have been dispatched to areas of the US where folks have progressive views, I'll keep standing up to these bullies and keep standing up for the ideals of liberty and freedom, here and elsewhere. In the words of the prophet, screw 'em.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:04 PM

I never said the actions were not being effective. I know very little about our actions in Bosnia or their effect. But I think we can all agree Mafia tactics are effective... just not, perhaps, moral. Besides... if we're making comparisons and references to past events, I'm sure you know the Northern Alliance were once condemned as terrorists.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Hey, today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter and valued ally...don't you know?

Or else it's exactly the other way around...like Saddam, Manuel Noriega, Ngo Dinh Diem, and the Taliban.

You can always measure the sincerity and trustworthiness of a major organization by looking at who they hire to do their dirty work for them, and how they treat the hired help when conditions change.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

And before they were condemned as terrorists, they were praised as anti-communist revolutionaries. Let's face it, we are dealing with a medieval society in Afghanistan, comprised of feuding warlords interspersed with religious fanatics, and a largely suffering peasant population. If you're looking for white knights, they are going to be few and far between there. We aren't suddenly going to be able to impose a free market system and democratic institutions on them to help them enjoy the fruits of the western world. The Romans, Russians, the British, the Indian Rajs, all took turns sitting on that powderkeg, and essentially nothing has changed. Well, they have vcrs and satellite dishes now.

Like it or not, the US is the dominant power on earth. Benign neglect will accomplish nothing but what it has done so far in the middle east. To accomplish regional peace, most of these people will have to be hammer-locked and grappled to the table. Until we were attacked, the need for regional peace was not enough of a motivating factor. Things have changed.

And..sorry..to a great extent the ends do justify the means. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. In order to maintain a modicum of peace and security in our country, and other countries like Canada, Britain, France, etc who enjoy their piece of the world economic pie, of peaceable existence and God-given freedom (although somebody has always had to defend these freedoms with a gun once God gave them), the US has the great honor to carry the gun in this instance.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 05:50 PM

LEJ - Yeah, it all depends on which side of the fence you're standing as to how you feel about it. The Romans were once in a similar position to the USA today, and they enforced the Pax Romana over a vast region by a combination of benign tactics (economic and cultural benefits) and ruthless military force.

They were both admired and loathed by their subject peoples and their neighbours, much like the USA is now.

You could make an equally good argument for or against them, just like the USA.

You had mentioned that Saddam posed a threat to America. I don't think he does, simply because he's not big enough and doesn't have a long enough reach to seriously threaten America.

In fact, I think to say that he does is to adopt the old Nazi technique of the BIG LIE...a 180 degree reversal of the actual truth of the matter. (and I don't mean by this that I am accusing you or anyone else of being a Nazi, I just mean that it's a known propaganda technique which has worked in the past)

It is America that is a mortal threat to Saddam, and Saddam knows it. America needs Saddam ("good guys" need "bad guys"), and needs to convince its people that he is a threat in order to advance its Middle East policy, and Saddam knows that too. In fact, he plays the game masterfully to the mutual benefit of himself and America...so far.

Likewise, North Korea, Iran, and Libya are no real threat at all to America, but America is a mortal threat to them.

What Saddam IS a threat to is the following: his immediate neighbours in the Middle East, the Kurds, and his own Iraqui population. He is virtually no threat to America, because America can destroy him utterly any time they decide to, while he can do almost nothing to them in return. The Gulf War has already demonstrated that, as has this recent conflict in Afghanistan.

Let us take the ultimate example and say that a "rogue state" (meaning someone who is not cooperating with the Pax Americana) succeeds somehow in smuggling a nuclear weapon into the USA and blowing up New York or L.A. or Washington. Even that would not destroy the USA, but it would most certainly lead to the destruction of some small country or countries when the USA retaliated massively, as it would.

So who is genuinely a real threat to whom here? I think you will agree that had America's expanding world power not been a primary threat to these various small countries in the first place, they would not be thinking of retaliating against the USA at all. They would have no reason to! Who retaliates against Canada? Or Belgium? Or Denmark? Or Sweden? And hey, they all have democracy, so obviously it is not democracy that the terrorists are so upset about, is it?

This is the price of establishing a world empire. It's built on the destruction (or absorption) of smaller cultures, and they usually don't go down without a fight.

INOBU - You are quite right that if New York were wiped out it would pretty much cripple the Democratic Party. That's a worrisome prospect, to say the least. As for Dubya, I suspect he is doing pretty much what he is told to do...but what I don't know is exactly who it is who tells him to do it. You don't hear about those people too much.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:08 PM

Here's the Secret Seven, just in case anyone missed the list: "The secret report, which was provided to Congress on Jan. 8, says the Pentagon needs to be prepared to use nuclear weapons against China, Russia, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Libya and Syria. It says the weapons could be used in three types of situations: against targets able to withstand nonnuclear attack; in retaliation for attack with nuclear, biological or chemical weapons; or "in the event of surprising military developments."

I must admit, I breathed a sigh of relief that they left Cuba off the list. Touch wood, that was probably a mistake.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM

But aren't those a great bunch of situations - "against targets able to withstand nonnuclear attack" - that's a good one. But "surprising military developments" is better. Presumably it means any time one is in a war and you aren't winning.

And the fact that America has solemnly pledged itself never to use nuclear weapons against a non-nuclear power, is now reneged on, and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty is now just history.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Until he turns round and blows up the World Trade Center. The truth is anyone whom says "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is thinking like a terrorist.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 06:34 PM

Yes. Hitler couldn't abide people who did not think like terrorists (pacifists and Jehovah's witnesses, for example). He considered them weak, not deserving to live, and he had them rounded up and exterminated.

He was also under the impression that the western democracies were too morally weak and corrupt to use the ruthless force required to build "a New World Order".

He was wrong. They proved to be entirely ruthless enough to use any amount of force necessary. They proved that at Hamburg, Berlin, and Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They have the will to prove it again at a moment's notice. Depend on that.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 07:47 PM

Did you catch Dubbya's speech tonight? He disapproves of Israel's invasion of the Palistinian refuge camps; although he understands the need to protect itself from terrorists. Isn't that exactly what we did in Afghanistan?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:01 PM

I think anyone spouting the old, with God on our side excuse for war may do well to look not at the war, but the aftermath. After WWI the resulting punishment of Germany gave rise to Nazism, after WWII, we built INTERPOL NASA and a host of other institutions around Nazi colberation and lauched 50 years of unrelenting war to establish totalitarian capitolism, a system where greed is good, where morality is based on profit, where the poor are used to make consumer junk which it is patriotic to buy... need I remind folks that the Civil war did not end slavery, but only launched us into one hundred years of Jim Crow? And any one who thinks slavery ended in the US should ask our prison population of over a million, many of whom are doing unpaid work - scabbing on Union workers... I don't know, doesn't sound like God's work to me.
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

Bobert - are you talking about the Pacifica Foundation or about PBS? They are two very different entities, y'know.

Public Broadcasting Systems has gone from bland to blander in their political reporting because they depend on government subsidies. Pacifica Radio (so called because they were founded by pacifists) is funded entirely by listener contributions, and they are an invaluable resource for getting the other side of the news - the side that no other media will report.

I recommed Amy Goodman's program, Democracy Now.

Seditiously,

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:05 PM

Well, Ebbie, I decided at first to steer clear of this foray because all you liberals are having such a good time. I'll just make a couple of comments, not opinions.

The so called secret Nuke list has been government policy for several years. Bush is just continuing the plan the Clinton administration developed. I think we would be pretty stupid for us not to have a plan. (Oops, opinion)

The story about Anthrax was reported in newspapers several weeks ago. Read your newspapers, fellow Mudcatters! (Oops, opinion)

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:21 PM

Been wondering where you were Doug. Thought you were off hiding your head!

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:53 PM

I don't have access to newspapers, DougR, and if I did, my eyes couldn't read them fast enough. So I would be more than appreciative if someone could steer me in the direction of an on-line source for the anthrax story.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:04 PM

You had mentioned that Saddam posed a threat to America....No, I had mentioned that Saddam poses a threat to America, Canada, Britain, France etc. And I'm not enough of a bonehead to think that means he can marshal conventional forces sufficient to wage war against the US. You said it, a nuclear strike against a major population center in America holds the ultimate potential of launching a true world war.

Who retaliates against Canada? Or Belgium? Or Denmark? Or Sweden? Right now, no one. They aren't perceived as threats. They hardly need to maintain a standing army, do they? Is that because the world holds only good feelings toward them, or because they stand under the umbrella of NATO protection, as they have done for 60 years?

This is the price of establishing a world empire. Could be. Can you name a time in the last 500 years when there was not at least one dominant world power? And would you really feel so much more comfortable if the US were to adopt an isolationist stance? If it were left up to Canada to intervene in a genocidal slaughter like the one in Bosnia? Or would you even then stand back and decry the bullies in your own government?

McGrath accuses me of thinking like a terrorist when I say "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Well thinking like a terrorist may be one way to understand what otherwise feels like psychotic behavior, true, but there is a thing called pragmatism, which exists in a world where there is no true absolute good and evil, where everything is not clearly black and white. Were we wrong to ally with the Chinese in World War 2, when they were destined to become an enemy 5 years later? Were the British wrong to ally with Russia against NAZI Germany? If Winston Churchill was at that time "thinking like a terrorist", then I'm proud to be in his company.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:11 PM

If hell has a religion, it is patriotism.

Art

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:33 PM

michaelr: You are correct. I have just started listening to WPFW in D.C. and the station has just started carrying the Pacifica Foundation newscasts. There has been lots of talk about censorship of news before Pacifica at WPFW. Now WPFW is listener supported so it would make sense that it does not require public funds.

It is refreshing to hear the news that no one else will tounch because it does not conform with the milk toast crap we hear on every other TV or radio station in the Nation's capitol.

Thanks for pointing out the differences. I used to think that since I was listening to PBS (WAMU) that I was getting a TRUTH. No way.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:41 PM

I thought the domestic origin of the anthrax letters was suspected from near the start of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1648000/1648159.stm

I am amazed at what a grab bag of unfocused meanderings we have here, starting with the first post. Lots of great thoughts; NO focus.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

LEJ - I'm saying the USA is a constant, real, and mortal threat to Saddam Hussein, since they don't need him to kill Iranians any more, and Saddam Hussein is almost no threat at all to the USA, France, Britain, Canada, etc...

Therefore, to mobilize vast forces to oppose the "threat" posed by Saddam is mere posturing and false propaganda. It's comparable in some ways to Germany's propaganda regarding the Polish "threat" in 1939...and it is hypocritical and misleading.

Saddam's ideal dream would be: to have a free hand in Iraq, and then to gobble up Kuwait and a couple of other small places, and be the most powerful guy in the Middle East. He's a local despot, not a military threat to Europe or the USA. But he is also a tremendously handy symbol of "all that is evil" from the point of view of the US administration, and they will continue to use him as such for just as long as they can.

I believe that Israel alone is quite capable of defeating Saddam Hussein, without even the direct assistance of the USA. And Israel has nuclear weapons too.

As for Canada...yes we have not been threatened because we are no threat to anyone AND because we are fortunately positioned geographically AND because "the world holds only good feelings toward us". NATO has in no way ever protected Canada from anything, but has put Canada in considerable danger of being incinerated in a war between Russia and America on a few occasions since 1948 or thereabouts.

Ditto for Belgium, Sweden, and Denmark.

Countries that habitually make war and conduct aggressive expansionism accumulate enemies. Belgium, Canada, Sweden and Denmark do not fall in that category. Sweden (and to a lesser extent Belgium) did fall in that category a long time ago (when they were empire building in far off places) but they have since opted to live within their own borders and not trouble other nations. Thus, they are loved by the world in general and not feared.

NATO has protected only itself (meaning, its power and hegemony). In response to NATO the Russians formed the Warsaw Pact which likewise protected only itself. Both were motivated by the same purposes...expansion, control and ruthless competition with their rival organization. The Warsaw Pact ran out of money first. I care not a fig for either of them. They were like 2 huge mafia gangs, pulling in protection money from the locals, stationing their forces in the precincts, and staking out turf in the world. I am absolutely cynical about both NATO and the defunct Warsaw Pact. They never served anything but their own interests.

I realize that there has always been a dominant world empire in historical times (Greece, Rome, China, Persia, France, Britain, and so on...) BUT I do not consider that to be a desirable or a necessary situation any more. It is a tyrrany of the rich and well-armed over the rest of humanity, and surely we are capable of progressing beyond tyrrany at this point?

We are now capable of establishing a united world society with economic and social equality, common laws, common rights and protections, a world justice system and universal peace...and we should do it now by dismantling national armies, assisting disadvantaged areas of the world, and establishing a genuinely equal form of world political representation. Any individual country which persists in following the old empire-building practices is living in the past.

As one example: have you read the Bahai teachings regarding a world society? Check it out at Bahai.org and you will see a simple exposition of the next logical age of development on this planet...in which you will not see competitive nation states and corporations carving out empires...but a multicultural society sharing the planet equally and responsibly. "The Earth is one country and all of humanity are its citizens."

We're entirely capable of making that transition already...we have the communications technology and the practical means to do it...but the people running the present system are raking in so much cash that they would rather live in the past and not change a thing. They rule by the dollar, the bomb, and the gun...and advertising, which pacifies and distracts the public.

They have the hearts of despots and barbarians. I consider them all to be blood brothers of Saddam Hussein, despite their protestations of democracy and righteousness. It is under their sword of Damocles that you and I have spent our lives.

My views, of course, are unconventional, but as Bob Dylan said once, "I believe in the impossible, you know that I do". I believe we can achieve anything on this planet which we are capable of imagining, and what I imagine is way better than what we've got. It's Dodge City and Tombstone out there right now, but it doesn't have to be.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:06 PM

*G* Thanks, Dan. Yes, mea culpa. My focus it terrible. I'm a raging case of careening attention deficit disorder. But I'm fun ;-)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:07 PM

Sheesh, excuse me for squeezing in here between you two, LH and LEJ. You both are making fascinating points, I admit. But just to throw some BASICS in here:

For, instance, LEJ said near the beginning that we should determine what Bush said. Answer: Bush said he wants to reduce the U.S. nuclear arsenal by two thirds over the next decade. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/09/nuclear.weapons/index.html

However, he also "has directed the military to build smaller nuclear weapons for use in some instances, the Times reports." http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/09/nuclear.weapons/index.html This is unsettling, in a speculative way, because "the development of smaller nuclear weapons may signal that the Bush administration is leaning toward overlooking a long-standing policy against the use of nuclear weapons except as a last resort."

The Nuclear Posture Report is required by law. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/10/nuclear.weapons/index.html

Generals sit around and think up crap like this for a living. That's what they do. What did you all think they do? Would you expect them to write a report about hypothetical nuclear scenarios and say we have entered the age of aquarius and should not ever consider the horror of using nuclear weapons? This stuff was presented to Congress in January, and now was leaked, NOT from the administration I would conclude, because it has caused the administration some very, very bad press and escalated world tensions at the wrong time, because of the leaks, which are alleged to be and probably are highly selective.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:19 PM

While we're digesting LH's tome, let me add that I have no doubt you are lots of fun Carol. (I haven't seen the PBS thing. There may be something new about it)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM

I'm curious, Michaelr and Bobert, what leads you to believe the "news" you are getting from Pacifica Radio is any more accurate than news you receive from PBS, or any other radio or TV network?

Because it agrees with your political P.O.V.?

If so, that certainly is a interesting way to view the "news."

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:04 AM

Be my guest, Dan. And thanks.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:11 AM

I think it is interesting that someone (in this instance Larry) can "hear a snippet of the news," and post a message that causes the Mudcat liberals to go on a feeding frenzy before anyone has even checked out the source, or even the whole story. Just mentioning the name of our President (and Peg, yes he is our president, and that is official even if you have not checked lately).

What happened to compassionate liberalism? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:15 AM

So ....... Doug .......Can I assume then that you listen to Radio Pacifica, and other liberal sources, so you can be well rounded and draw from many sources to arrive at conclusions? Or do you listen to Rush and Mike and the like and then pronounce the liberal attempts to do the same thing as tripe?

Mick

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:54 AM

Mick, until tonight, I had never heard of Radio Pacifica. If it were available to me, I certainly would listen to it. I certainly do not agree with the political philosophy of PBS, but I listen to it regularly. I also listen regularly to Fox New Network, and do believe they give the "other side" along with my side.

So, I guess it would not be out of order to ask whether or not you listen to the "other side" or do you just listen to the networks, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, and Radio Pacifica to form your opinions? :>)

Doug

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:01 AM

Oh, and one more thing, Mick. When did I proclaim that what the liberals say or think is tripe? I don't agree with them, but I don't question their right to think the way they (you) do.

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:26 AM

I wish all you people would quit saying mean things about our President. When the time comes to get down with some hard-core repression, who do you think they're going to tap to do the grunt work? I barely have enough time with my own caseload, and I have tons of reports to write as it is. I really don't have time to start rounding you all up and transporting you to the gulags.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:35 AM

(*g* leprechaun) But you know that you want to...

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:49 AM

DougeR, what makes you assume that many of us have not checked out other resources besides the intitial posting of this thread? On the contrary, Mudcatters tend to question and seek out their own answers, quite often sharing links to the sources they've found for info.

Now, one more thing: how many of us have written to our congresspeople? Have we told them how we feel about what is happening? That is one of the few ways we have, as individual citizens, of making any kind of opinion heard, besides writing letters to the editor of your local papers, etc. It doesn't hurt, also, to send a letter of support to congresspersons whom you happen to agree with, so they know someone is in their corner. Personally, I want Daschle, Kerry, and few others to know they are supported by more than just their states' consituents and, yes, I have written to them.

kat

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:31 AM

DougR, I find this to be a very interesting thread with many points, and I'd like to hear the voice of the other side participate. Unfortunately, you're not participating in the discussion, tactfully critcizing, but simply attacking. Nothing gets accomplished... the trasnsferring and analyzing of ideas gets lost and turned into rationalization. It's everything wrong with thought in this nation... I also feel like there is much rationalization in your own thinking. You see what is written and dismiss it as liberal nonsense, or at least that's the feeling I get, and stop only to consider why we are wrong. In turn, I read your arguments and they sound like angry republican dismissals. Why do you even bother reading or posting on the board then? If your mind is closed and your writing closes others... it's like 2 walls throwing bricks at each other...

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:08 AM

Hi guys! Well, first, I know and love Amy Goodman, been on her show a bunch of times, and on other pasifica shows, and would not call them liberal, they are progressive, and in fact, like all news one has to contiualy go to first hand sourses when one can, TRAVEL! The fact they are the most independant news sourse helps. However, they are a little conspiracy concious, however that sometimes plays out. When contragate happened, I remember making the comment, it is becomeing a WBAI world out there (BAI being our Pasifica station in New York).
As to the focus of the origional post, read it again, I said, I had heard part of the report and asked folks to add the rest. In fact, what I had heard was the we HAD sent military adviors to Georgia, and in fact which ever side they are on, I believe in increases our danger here in New York.
As to baby bushikins getting rid of nukes... I hope he does not mean detonating them!
Cheers all, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:29 AM

Doug, you ask what happened to compassionate liberalism? what happened to compassionate CONSERVATISM? One does not cease to be a doofus just because he found an enemy. He is president on a technicality only.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:48 AM

Way back up there at the top I said I felt we were in trouble on many fronts and I see that some of them have been pointed out with some discussion on the points. Great, but uh..........The Bush group is in the middle of a feeding frenzy at the moment and I can only see it getting worse. They've been empowered by the events of 9/11 and are making hay while the sun shines.

It may get a bit worse before it gets better, but I do see it improving some in the future as more and more people are taking a serious look at what they are giving up in the name of anti-terrorism. One of the beauties of this system is that at some point the excesses of any branch are cutback and or cutoff at the knees. When this happens it also takes a long period to find the path again and in the case of 9/11 the Bush people managed to carry off their quest long enough that the patriotism of many became the jingoism of many also. It gave them a leg up on the feeding frenzy, an added bonus, so to speak.

More of us are writing in and becoming active on the other side and will gain the support needed to come back from some of this lunacy because the timing is better now. It's tough to argue with the mob when they are in the heated moments of jingoistic fervor, the one plus being that that same jingoism has now turned off many patriotic Americans who are letting their minds go back to work.

Spaw

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:57 AM

...and now for a shameless plug for a sorely missed director, Stanley Kubrick, whose illustrious film career was occasionally dappled with themes contextually related to the discussion at hand. To wit...........

Opinionatedly speaking, the best and most memorable line from Kubrick's "Paths To Glory" was when Kirk Douglas quoted Samuel Johnson:

'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.'

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:26 AM

One last thought DougR, my friend, about media: CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, et al are all owned by the ruling class and are marching in line. They have to know what is going on but either wish not to report it or are intimidated. So we liberals have been getting a steady diet of state controlled information. We don't have to check in with Rush or Mike, thank you.

Now, what if a couple hundred thousands Afgans starved because of US policies, Doug, but you don't find out about it until, say, 6 months from now. Will you have a rationalization crafted in place to blame the "liberals"?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" - yes there can be desperate situations when you are up against the wall, and your only hope of survival is to think like that. That's one of things that I meant by "thinking like a terrorist."

But arming and training Bin Laden because he wanted to go and fight the Russian backed government in Afghanistan, or arming and supporting Saddam Hussein to help him crush his Kurdish citizens and invade Iran - those weren't back-to-the-wall life-and-death situations for America and the rest. They were examples of short-term thinking, irresponsible war games.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:55 AM

Funny how words get hijacked. LIBERAL...generous, open handed,open minded, candid, unprejudiced. Favourable to democratic reform and individual liberty..befitting a free man. (Oxford English dictionary)sounds like the Amrican dream to me. How is it this word has come to mean something completely different? Also "do-gooder" is now used as a condemnation. What is it's opposite we should all aim for... "do-badder"?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:16 AM

Funny thing McGrath, the quote about the friends of my friends was a headline on an Otway family web page in England. I wrote to the fellow, (lovely guy) and told him I was a Friend (Quaker) Otway and had no enimies, and in my letter said to him that evil is a void which can only be filled with love. He changed his web page to read that. So, keep hopeful and do good things, and hope we can teach by example.
I saw Blackhawk Down the other day, it fails to mention that Somalia was not an industial nation. The Somalies did not make their weapons, we and Russia sent them more guns than food for decades, then when we go with food, we wind up in a battle where we kill 1,000 who are trying to kill us, and we still don't understand.
Tragic.
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:22 AM

And the pendulum swings again!

Jingoism is as Jingoism does. I'll happily admit to being cynical, which the hyperbole of this thread invites so warmly.

I'm glad I'm not a politician, because I just don't think I could decide which city to have nuked to further my political aims. What's up with all those idiots who voted for Bush? Don't they realize he's a sociopath and the epitome of evil on earth? If those idiots wo voted for Bush can't discern the man's true character any better than that, then they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

When the people who can think clearly are back in power, I guess it will be my job to haul all the republicans and capitalists to the gulags.

I hope they find some way to streamline the paperwork.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM

Hi Lep... see this is what is mean by totalitarian Capitolism... from fighting the cold war so long, as Malachi McCort says, you become your enimy... instead of an end of tyrany, you can only emagine a reversal of the same rolls... in a nation with more folks per capita in jail than Stalin had... kinda' makes one think you may be right... but that is not what progressive folks here want, we want an end to our totalitarianism and an end to theirs - and the cold war showed that using the same tacktics makes for the same result... and I agree with you, the legal system has to do something to stream line the paper work all around! It doesn't seem to do the job half the time anyway, does it? I don't know, I'd say more computers less paper, but how often do we see some poor fellow on a minor charge, who would normally be out in a hour or two spend three days in jail over the weekend because the computers where down? It just gets too big, dosn't it?
Stay safe and stay cool, Lep ol pal...
Keep and eye out for them Clorachons!
Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:06 AM

HEY LEP!
I just had a funny image... I suddunly got how you stay on line, you have one of those wee computers in the police cruser, used to run licence plates etc... and you've got it programed for the Mcat! Here you are, barreling down the interstate after a speeder, while discussing folk music and politics with one hand!
KEEP YER EYES ON THE ROAD BUDDY!!! CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: heric
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:23 AM

Since this thread is about anything, may I mention that I just noted from a web search that Mr. Andrews once had a song banned by the BBC. However belated, my hat is off to you, sir.

Dan

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:55 PM

Bobert: who the heck is Mike? You've mentioned Mike several times, and I have no idea who you are talking about.

Lil'VanBone: I assume by reading your message that you are of the opinion that those who espouse YOUR point of view do not have closed minds. Interesting. As a matter of fact, the postings on the Mudcat by people who have opinions other than mine, HAVE altered my thinking in some areas. Capital punishment, for one. I have certainly given a lot of thought as to whether or not I favor capital punishment, and I am leaning toward opposing it. Thanks, primarily, to arguments presented in this forum.

The answer to Larry's original question, though, is NO, bush is NOT trying to get us nuked! He is trying NOT to get get us nuked. The stronger national defense we have, the less likely anyone will attack us. And if they do, retaliation will be swift, and deadly. That's my opinion anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:22 PM

Ah, DougR, you're learning! That was a clear statement of your belief, something we can grapple with. In a debate, each speaker presents views and reasons to support those views. Sometimes, imo, you forget to support those views.

Of course we all do that on occasion in the heat of the moment but I think we usually try to explain ourselves.

'Mike', I think, might be Michael Reagan.

Now, I'll put my gloves back on.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:43 PM

Doug's right enough, Bush isn't intentionally trying to get America nuked.

But the way he's going about it arguably increases the likelihood of all kinds of horrible things happening, even including that.

Now what about getting America naked instead? Much more fun and less likely to end in tears. Starting with that statue in the Department of Justice they wanted to put a dress on.

As for friends and enemies - a much better slogan is "The enemies of my friends are my enemies". (Whereas the current line from the White House seems to be "the friends of my enemies are my enemies" - which doesn't bode too well for people who actually believe that "love your enemies" is the best way to go.)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:50 PM

McGraw: You haven't read our recent obesity stats. Ever heard of the Ugly American? Add about 15% since that term was coined.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:57 PM

Someone asked why did all those millions of Americans vote for Bush if he's so "evil" or whatever...(and I'm not saying he is evil...)

Well, remember that they were only given a very limited choice...vote for Bush or vote for Gore. (Nader hardly counted for all practical purposes, since the SYSTEM was not backing him and he had no chance whatsoever of being elected).

I remember that pundits at the time were joking about this choice, saying it was a vote for "Gush" or "Bore".

The fact is, people of America, you really have been given virtually no choice. There is a System that runs your society, and every 4 years it trots out two front men, two puppets for you to vote for. You can debate till you're blue in the face about which one of those two is better or worse, but the System will still rule after it's over, no matter which of the two gets in.

Your vote is nothing. It's meaningless. Your democracy is a sham. You are controlled from the top down, drugged with advertising, intoxicants, addictions, and consumer goods, and lied to every day of your lives.

1984 happened and you never even noticed. Orwell's Brave New World was quietly established and has filled your neighbourhood with fast food outlets and Wal-Marts.

The pioneer freedoms of your ancestors are merely a shining memory.

The only thing that will change it now is some event so unexpected and so catastrophic that the System will not survive in its wake, since the average public are far too stupefied and seemingly powerless to stop it themselves.

If 100 million of you were to go out into the streets for one day you could stop it, but that's just not going to happen. You're not aware enough to do it, you're too disunited, and you wouldn't know how to follow it up properly anyway, once you'd done it.

As for me, I try to live my own life according to my own ideals, and as best I can. I'm no threat to anyone, because I believe in treating others as I would have them treat me...kindly and harmlessly. I live quietly and modestly. I watch and wait, as the System grows more diseased and topheavy by the year.

The System will fall. It is too corrupt to stand. If man doesn't make it fall, Nature will. Wait and see.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

But the way he's going about it arguably increases the likelihood of all kinds of horrible things happening, even including that.

I'm convinced you are right on the short run, McGrath, but that is not the important question. Will the world (or the USA) be safer on the long run? The decision to enter into (the last) war against Germany had all kind of horrible things coming in the first years after this decision, more than with the opposite decision, but on the long run it was the correct decision in my eyes.

I fear you might be right on the long run as well (if the politics of the USA remains but a display of military strength) but I am less convinced you are than on the short run.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:05 PM

Oooooooo... Little Hawk: As for me, I try to live my own life according to my own ideals, and as best I can. I'm no threat to anyone, because I believe in treating others as I would have them treat me...kindly and harmlessly. I live quietly and modestly. I watch and wait, as the System grows more diseased and topheavy by the year. What the hell do you think we're doing?

I do hope your denunciation is meant to be ironic.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:21 PM

LH: That sucks. Luckily it doesn't matter much. I only voted for Gore because I wanted to see the headline: GORE LICKS BUSH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Tiger
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:22 PM

Orwell or Huxley, Little Hawk? Get your sources straight.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

...he's the President...you can either find grounds and support for impeaching him, support him, or get out of the way.

Wow. "America: Love it or leave it".

Almost makes me nostalgic for 1967.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

*******thread creep alert*******

I just saw words that hit one of my pet peeves, "THE UGLY AMERICAN." This phrase has been used to describe Americans in a general, negative, catchy sound-bite sort of way. In the original book, "The Ugly American," this phrase referred to a civil engineer who was physically unattractive, but a quiet unassuming soul who did good works in southeast Asia (I think). As best I remember, he taught the old women in a village to use brooms with long handles and thus straighten their backs. Maybe the title of the book was used to also refer to the atrocious foreign policy in the region...but specifically, it was a loved and respected individual who just happened to be physically ugly.

*******end of thread creep********

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 03:11 PM

Yo, DougR, PART 1: I'm not sure who Mike is, Doug. I read of Mike in Big Mick's post. I don't keep up with the Rush's and G. Gordon Lippy's as I get enough right wing misinformation from CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, etc.

Yo, DougR, PART 2: Proud of you coming around on the death penalty. Does that apply to civilians we're killing in Afganistan? Sorry, that was indeed, below the belt. But I am sincerely happy that you have examined the issue for American citizens. Next thing you'll be carrying around a "Quotations from Chairman Mao" Red Book and quoting it here at the Catbox. Jus' funnin' with ya, buddy.

Mcgrath: Hey, how's about a National Nude Day at the Washington Monument? Sounds good to me. Austrilia's got some big nude thing going. I say a pic recently.

Little Hawk: I'm with you on the two party "System". They are more like to rival fraternaties. Neither offer any solutions to much of anything and that is why Democracy is a "sham", because it always excludes forward thinking people. And you are rtight that it will one day just implode as the rest of the earth's tribe figures out just how greedy and anti-human the ruling class is. It's just a matter of time.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lil' VanBone
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM

DougR: in just a short response, I am fully aware that many people on this board have closed minds. However, as you are the only Republican on the board that I've noticed (their might be others that have been less in-your-face about it that I failed to see), and your arguments have been mostly presented in at least a mildly offensive manor (your last post mostly an exception, although I felt the assumption you made of my reasoning was made in something of an accusatory manor) has not given many of these people much opportunity to show any closed-mindedness. As well... I feel everything goes in percentages. I think people are more likely to accept ideas that they like, and less likely to accept ideas that they don't like. The more an idea offends them, the less likely it is the be accepted. But those are percentages... X% chance of accepting the idea. There will always be ideas that get through. I just feel by minimizing the offensiveness and attacks, ideas are transmitted, criticized, revised, and accepted with less bias. As you pointed out, there are many other things that effect biases as it is: getting news from only sources that are liberal, or from interacting and discussing such things primarily with people who are conservative (as happened mostly here, as you're a very small minority).

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Butch
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:48 PM

OK , I will state for the record that DougR is not the only Republican on this board. I too voted for Mr. Bush and given the chance, I would do so again. I believe that many of the ills we now face were caused by a lack of response over he years to similar attacks (USS Cole, First Trade Center Bombing, African Embassies etc.). I may be right, I may be wrong but that is what I believe.

For those of you who feel that Bush is everything you hate, you now know how the last eight years were for some of us. But why do we vent any of this here. Why not keep this hatred down by avoiding such posts not related to music. It would be a much more pleasant place if we could do this. I know that I could have avoided reading this as it had a BS prefix but sometimes you just have to look. So what would be so bad to take these comments to policial forums and keep them off Mudcat. I am sure that the political forums would ask the same if we started banjo posts on them.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:50 PM

Tiger - You're absolutely right. It's Huxley who wrote "Brave New World" and I know it. I was typing fast and made an error there...and probably not the last one I'll ever make on this forum either. :-)

Ebbie - Yeah, I know that's what you're doing. I wasn't condemning specific individuals on this forum, just describing a general situation in a civilization that's out of control and heading for disaster. I wish I could do something about it on a larger scale, but about the best I can do is simply keep my own life as sane and reasonable as possible, which I figure is probably what most of you on this forum are doing as well...regardless of whether you're "liberal" or "conservative".

Fortunately the inner human being...I mean the conscious living soul inside each one of us...can neither be seen nor controlled by any government. Ultimately we are free. That part of us will outlive this nonsense that calls itself a "modern society". What is finest in us will triumph in the end, and the "end" will prove to be a new and fresh beginning with wonderful possibilities.

So you see, although I may be pessimistic about outward conditions, I am far from pessimistic about human destiny. Systems fall, but people endure.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:03 PM

Yes, Lil'VanBone, I recognize that I am in the minority. There are others, but they show more constraint than I do, I suppose. I don't know how new you are to the forum. I don't recall seeing your name before in the political threads. If you were to examine my postings over the past 2+ years, I don't believe you will find a preponderance of opinion that I am an "attacker" or that I have been "mildly offensive." I think those friends on the Mudcat whose views I do not share, in most cases, would describe my postings as reasonably polite, even though they do not agree with them. Perhaps you are simply more sensitive than others. If I offended you, I apologize.

I certainly wouldn't argue with your statement that, "people are more likely to accept ideas that they like, and are less likely to accept those that they don't like." Sounds reasonable to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 06:16 PM

Butch - The idea of starting "banjo posts" on political forums is a pretty subversive one all right! Hell, I even avoid bango posts on this forum most of the time... :-)

This is actually the only forum to which I do post, and it's probably taking up too much of my time already...

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:10 PM

Banjo posts on political forums sounds like an excellent idea. They could be pretty political at that as well.

Political discourse is more interesting with people whose views you respect. If people are interested in folk music I've got enough in common with them for the differences between us to be interesting to me. And if there weren't any differences the discussions would get a bit empty and flabby.

The crucial thing is that we keep it as an argument and a discussion and don't trail off into quarrels and fights and flaming. I get the impression that collectively we are getting better at doing this. And Doug is an example of someone I disagree with on a lot of things who doesn't turn the arguments into quarrels. (And I probably agree with him on a lot of things, but we haven't got round to many of them yet...)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:22 PM

McGrath said But arming and training Bin Laden because he wanted to go and fight the Russian backed government in Afghanistan, or arming and supporting Saddam Hussein to help him crush his Kurdish citizens and invade Iran - those weren't back-to-the-wall life-and-death situations for America and the rest. They were examples of short-term thinking, irresponsible war games.

Well, McGrath, I agree with you, and it reveals a telling lack of strategy regarding the role of the US on the world stage. For long, our strategy was containment of Communism, and the establishment of the Mutual Destruction Doctrine. Now, with the collapse of the USSR, we must redefine our aims, and we have done a sorry job of it.

Regarding LH's statement that what is needed is a vacuum to take the place of the "Dominant Power" tradition, and that, in the presence of this vacuum, hatred and war will collapse, world government will arise, and peace will exist among all nations : It can only be said that the vacuum has never existed long enough for such things to occur. Some nation or empire or religious movement has always arisen to fill that vacuum, usually to the dismay and horror of those who have put down their arms and opened their hearts.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:27 PM

Peg said: "And Peter, we live in a democracy"

Actually, we don't. The US is a "Democratic Republic", a small diff, but a diff none the less.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM

:::More thread creep:::

Mary in Kentucky wrote: "I just saw words that hit one of my pet peeves, "THE UGLY AMERICAN."

All I can say is, you should have seen the ugliness on the train from Maryland to Rhode Island when the World Cup was here in the States 8ish years ago. Oh...my...GAWD! I about had to hit one drunken european soccer junky in order to get him to leave my sleeping 2 year old daughter alone. Thank god I had the spunk to be an "Ugly American" for her sake. Ugly is everywhere, friends. Not just here in the States.

:::end thread creep:::

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

LEJ - Yup. Sad but true. Nonetheless, I do believe in spiritual evolution as well as physical evolution, so I continue to hope for the best from people (as do the Bahais, who are an excellent group of people).

If there was a general world catastrophe, though, I might keep a loaded gun handy...just in case...while I gathered wood and fresh water and planted vegetables. There are some people out there who are about as highly evolved as a turnip, and a whole lot more dangerous.

Yet...if you look at the general trend of human development in the last few thousand years...we have progressed from family groups to small tribes to larger tribes to city-states to nation-states to cooperative associations of nation-states (like the EU)...and we have discarded many of the most vicious social practices of the past (in most places).

So, doesn't it seem logical that the next step would be the formation of a unified world society with a collectively shared approach to solving social problems?

This is what we usually envision when we imagine advanced beings on some other planet. Is it not the inevitable end result of any successful civilization on any planet? Our present disunity simply shows that we have a very long way to go yet. We actually have no business exploring space (travelling to other places, I mean) until we've become one nation here on Earth.

I'm believe that we have an opportunity at this juncture in history (with our instant communications technology) to be successful in that fashion...rather than destroying ourselves through the worship of money and competition...or descending back into barbarism.

The very fact that I can talk like this with other individuals all over the world at a moment's notice is one of the most hopeful signs I've seen. Once you personally know people it's much harder for some government to persuade you to kill them.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

Small family groups to nation states to megapowers with H-bombs... Well, if progress means proceeding forward in some direction, and that is one definition of the word, I suppose that qualifies as progress.

If the word implies getting better, I'm not too sure. Dental treatment is a lot better than it was a few thousand years ago. (Though it was probably better a few thousand years ago than it was a couple of hundred years ago.) And we've got the Mudcat, I'll grant that. But overall? Maybe.

Some things get better, some get worse. A lot stays the same. On balance some times are a lot better than other times, but I don't feel confident there's any steady and consistent improvement overall.

If you go in any direction the next place you get to will very likely be better than where you came from, or maybe worse - but you'd be seriously mistaken if you assumed that, if you kept on in that direction, things would keep on getting better or worse.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:10 PM

OK Little Hawk, when the catastrophe happens and we all live in Aldous Huxley's Animal Farm, will I still get to keep my job hauling people to the Gulag?

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:23 PM

Sorry it took so long to get back, but St. Pat's week is a little hectic for and Irish singer.

Let me begin by saying that DougR never did refer to liberal thought as "tripe". Just me getting carried away.

Yes, Mike is Mike Reagan.

Doug, I regularly read conservative columnists and papers. I listen to conservative talks shows. I don't find a lot of value in listening to talk shows, etc, that share my views. It is like preaching in church. I do, however, read a number of liberal columnists also. I listen to the best conservative voices I can find. I do this as an acid test for my views. If my views can't pass the test of these shows then it gives me pause to re-evaluate. I also listen to them in order that I am constantly reminded that conservatives are just folks like liberals. One of the things I hate is when we get so polarized that we forget that we are all charting a course to the same destination, we just take different routes to get there.

Finally, let me apologize for being abrupt in that post. I was in a miserable mood, and tired. I am sorry for the insulting nature of it, Doug, and hope you will forgive me. I respect you a great deal. I think you are wrong, but I respect you..........LOL. One with the debate.

Mick

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM

In Orwell's Animal Farm, remember the pigs were in charge...

(And I trust that won't be taken as an unfriendly remark leprechaun! It's not meant that way.)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:42 PM

In these perilous times, Leprechaun, I can hardly guarantee you a job...gulag or no gulag. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 10:24 PM

And, Mcgrath, the "true believers" (the horses) worked themselves to death and died pulling the plows, while the pigs partied. There's way too much of that going on now. Ol' bobert hust goinna roll up his flag, stick it in the closet. Nope, me and Little Hawk ain't going to die on the widget assembly line and I don't think you have any intentions of doing it either, in spite of the blueprints on the ruling classes drawing board... but a lot of folks will. Sorry, but we were kind of talking about "Animal Farm", weren't we....

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Peg
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 11:40 PM

Aldous Huxley's Animal Farm??

Is that anywhere near George Orwell's Brave New World?

;)

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: DougR
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:08 AM

Mick: Our listening and reading habits are similar. As to the other, no problemo.

DougR

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: leprechaun
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:25 AM

Right next door to Nietzsche's Utopia. Pigs rule the world.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST,POed
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM

Crock of Shit.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 08:46 AM

Barman! We have an order on table 3! One crock of shite for POed on table 3! Da barman want's t'know if that is wit or witout maplesuger?... Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 06:41 AM

Prsident Mugabe is sending observors over to the next US election, we hear he consulted Bush JR and Uncle Jeb before his election. "make sure that those entitled to vote dont get a vote and then afterwards just rig `em" from Uncle Jeb. And it worked. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 09:38 AM

WE NEED THOSE OBSERVERS!!!! Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 10:07 AM

Hey! Here's your waitress for that Crock of Shit for Table 3!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 03:15 PM

and I thought Rudy made an ugly drag queen!!!! Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 03:30 PM

Ho...lee...SHIT! That chills the blood. They should drop thousands of those pictures all over Bahgdad, and destroy their morale utterly, then march in and take the place without firing a shot or wasting one expensive bomb.

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM

Yes!

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 05:01 PM

Hmm.

I almost can't believe no-one has mentioned Dr Strangelove. At the moment Mr Bush seems to beheaded in that sort of direction. He may really have flipped.

I am also surprised that no more mention has been made of the need for proper media plurality - without which Italy finishes up being governed by Berlusconi, the UK and Australia (and possibly the USA) by Murdoch, and if Murdoch doesn't get the USA perhaps Turner will.

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 05:41 PM

Richard, ol Skin! Missed ya! I hope you are well, justice is done in your cases, and when it is... appeal!
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:47 PM

Richard - Was the use of the term "beheaded" in your post about George W. Bush merely a fortunate accident or were you sending a message? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: is bush TRYING to get us nuked???????
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:25 AM

Geographically, somewhere between Georgia and Israel - lie "The Planes of Armageden"