stick to the point

Subject: stick to the point
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:49 AM

When I first logged on to the Mudcat Cafe, I thought I had found "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music". An awful lot of those posting to the discussion group seem to have missed this. I realise that there is a "BS" prefix to flag up that the topic may be a side issue, but I would have expectd them to be, at least in some way, music related.

Recent topics have included the plainly abusive (re Margaret Thatcher) which some imagine may pass for political satire;
Serious social concerns (re Catholic priests);
and purile discusions about ruins on Mars.

If peolpe want to chat about items unrelated to music then why don't they join or start up specialist, politacal, social, UFO or whatever websites and leave Mudcat to those who enjoy music.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Haruo
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:55 AM

Doug, it's not just a magazine; it's also a café. (And a huge one.) I think everybody who spends any significant amount of time here "enjoys music", but when you go to a café to play music (much less to listen to music) is that all you allow those at your table to do while they're there?

Liland

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:57 AM

Welcome to the Mudcat Doug. Do you realize that you just started a thread of the very sort that you don't like and that will, most probably blossom into an extremely long winded debate about what the Mudcat is all about and what it's supposed to be about, and will in all likelihood, spawn at least one or two sequel threads after this one gets too long?

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:58 AM

yawn

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:38 AM

I agree with Carol c and also Liland,

This is a disscussion fourm, and that means we can talk about almost anything.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:08 AM

Why doesn't this thread have a BS prefix ?

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:31 AM

What a dumb thread!

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:53 AM

Guest,

If it's dumb as you say it is, then why post on it Dummy

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Banjer
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:37 AM

Here we go again! The last one of these debates has not long ago ended and things returned to almost normal (as normal as things can get around here *BG*). Just as Liland asks above, do you speak of only one subject whenever you get together with friends? If that is the case I suggest expanding your horizons! The folks here at Mudcat are a multinational, diversified group and have interests in more than one area. I myself have learned a lot about more than music here over the years. I would suggest to Doug Chadwick, (not maliciously mind you) that if he would have a forum dedicated to only one subject he might look into a moderated news group. Otherwise, Doug, loosen up the collar, kick off the shoes and enjoy the many different facets available on the diamond that is the Mudcat!

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 06:47 AM

Doug,

I just want you to know that you are not alone. Though I do post to some of the BS threads, my preference would be a Mudcat Cafe without them. But that seems to be a minority position here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 07:37 AM

MY dear new pal... As you see, this topic has come up on many occations, in fact, just recently. You have not stepped into a victorian gentlemans club... you have entered the dark and dangerous realm of folk, populated, not only by the gentlefolk with tape recorders, doing field work, but the real unwashed and crunchy folk who make and sing and play the... music.
A lot of the BS, comes from those of us, the demi mond of the road, with dirt under our fingernails, behind our ears, and on our resumes... who are mad (crazy) or mad (angered) enough to make our lives on the music grindstone. As I recently said, in the last of these posts, our music is closely tied to what our interests and madness stems from the BS of our day. So, set asside your port wine for an instant, put a black cloth over your portrate of Maggie and the Queen (I don't want to see what they are up to in that picture anyway!!!!) and come give us a hug and have a pint of the real prolitarian stuff with us (diet coke for me!) The water is fine, dear brother, and the music is better.
Don't mind a bit of ribbing...
and between the two of us, (don't tell the others..) I am not a fan of Maggie or Ronny, but I am a wee bit put off by jokes about them, though I have a sneeking suspician that Ronny, Maggie and Dennis have made a few off color jokes about the likes of us!)
Well, I am off to mars on the wings of a little hawk... Larry

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:39 AM

I am against threads about things you can't have a song about. But then I cannot imagine anything you couldn't have a song about.

As Doug will find out, threads that start out about songs can get into talking about other things, and the other way round. So, to turn this one in the song and music direction, can anybody suggest a subject that could not be the topic of a song? And then the others can prove that's not the case.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Watson
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM

I'm glad to see we're all sticking to the point in this thread.
That must be very gratifying for Doug.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:46 AM

I think it is well known that some would prefer a music only Mudcat and can even feel uncomfortable with the BS while like to chat about anything here. Max has indicated that the upgrade will contain filtering technology which should enable users to get more of their own view of the forum, i.e. a music forum for one user and a more general forum for another.

Until the upgrade is introduced and we get a chance to see how the new system functions, I see no point in further discssions/arguments on this subject.

I just hope the upgrade arrives sooner rather than later.

Jon

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: John J
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:51 AM

Doug, your point is a valid one, BUT (very big but) the Mudcat is a community consisting mainly of people with an interest in folk / blues. Those people, like you and I, have other interests that we like to discuss with fellow members. It would be a rare person indeed who's only interest was folk and / or blues.

I have had a huge amount of help, musical and otherwise, from the Mudcat. Such a diverse range of members provide a fantastic source of a huge amount of information.

Welcome to the Mudcat. It is an invaluable source of information, stored or provided by the members. It is infuriating at times, provides some of the biggest smiles I'm capable of producing, but is ALWAYS informative.

Enjoy it for what it is: brilliant.

John

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Mooh
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 08:55 AM

Great song material here. Thanks. Mooh.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:02 AM

Just to emphasis JohnJ's point: someone asked for the lyrics to a particular version of 'Cruel Mother' a short while ago and within 15 minutes was referred to the lyrics, a MIDI file for it, some commentary, and a number of recordings. This place does know its music!

So what if we discuss other stuff as well? As long as people can tell them apart using 'BS' like this thread *G*

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM

Nice to know that some of the folkologists want to put us folkbugs under the microscope without being bothered with what our interests are... sound like the process of making folk a "classical artform" ... gee... I am honored!
Cheers Larry
PS To welcome ya in, and let you know we really do appreciate you here, PM me and I will send ya a CD... (no surprise folks eh?)

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM

Doug: A lot of people around here agree with you, but we've mostly given up trying to change the habits of the others who don't.

This cafe has no bouncer, and without one, anything goes.

With practice, you can learn to recognize the threads about music, and just ignore the rest.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:33 AM

I think the age old issue about what folk music IS should be reviewed here, and that to start we should break it down into its component parts. It is made up of two words: folk, and music. So perhaps we should ask ourselves, "What are folk?". It will be much easier, once that is fully clarified, to go ahead with the next difficult issue, "What IS music?"

This will provide those who wish to constrain the conversations on the Mudcat with clear consensus and guidance for establishing the important policy guidelines as to which conversations do and do not qualify.

I would like to request that the discussion, however, be conducted off-line -- perhaps by long distance teleconferences -- amongst those wishing to particpate, and that only the conclusions, thoroughly documented, be posted to the Forum.

A reasonable thing to do would be to provide an expected delivery date for these results, so I will suggest we should expect the first draft of the results by the end of April, 2009.

Do let us know how you are getting along.

A.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:33 AM

Anything goes!!!
Jim! Watch what you say or Spaw will be dancing on the table in the alltogether!!!!!!!! Cheers Larry
Ps Jim... just ribbing you cuz (my 5th back granny was Sarah Dixon...) but I guess you stumbled onto this one by accident? ;-)

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:37 AM

Please forgive me for this, but I am reminded of the portly English gent in his bowler hat, brollie tucked under his arm, at the newstand, looking at a pornographic magazine, flipping page to page saying, "Disgusting! Disgusting! Such things should not be allowed!!!"
Smile brothers... Larry

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: irishajo
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:37 AM

Had it not been for the BS threads, I probably wouldn't still be lurking around this site. When someone first told me about this place, I had a rather vague interest in folk music. I had a few Peter Paul and Mary and Chieftains CDs, and grew up listening to a lot of bluegrass/country/hymn music. That was about it. To be honest, if this site was 100% music, I probably wouldn't have kept coming back. But some of the literary/political threads piqued my interest.

As a result of hanging around and reading those types of threads over the past year, I've also read many of the music threads and gotten a LOT more interested in folk/blues music. I've found a ton of new (to me) artists. I learned about Paltalk and was even persuaded by Jon Freeman to sing a few times (something I haven't done in years). Now I'm looking to buy a guitar (thanks to this site I have a better idea of what to look for).

Anyway, as much as I don't want to add fuel to the fire here thought I'd say that for at least one person, the BS threads have not detracted from the music but more pushed me in that direction.

Amy

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: reggie miles
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 09:50 AM

Doug, all of these others have said more eloquently what my feelings are about this subject. Like some of these folks, I carefully thought out my view point and included them on the last thread of this subject, adding my testimony to the value of these seemingly nonrelated chats. It is indeed difficult for some to see this value, I suppose, as it is difficult to see the value in anything we have, or think we have, little need of in this life. If you deem they are of no value to you then you must use your energy to post to only those threads that you find valuable and by doing so your experience will be satisfying.

A guy walks into a doctors office and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." The doctor says, "Don't do that!" ;^)

dockter o' thinkology, Reg

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:00 AM

BS is nothing more than food for songs. :-)

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: reggie miles
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM

How very true Kim C. As a musician/entertainer where would I be without all that BS to segue into my next song. Segues are the hardest part of my job.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:29 AM

Ah'll tell whit gets oan mah wick!It's the moaners an' groaners like Doug wha post here aboot the non-music threeds.If ye took the time tae coont the percentage ye wid see that the VAST MAJORITY are music related.
Ah hae a web site that is strugglin tae get posts on onythin.
It is a stupid complaint an' ah'm surprised at masel for answerin it.The solution is obvious Doug. ljc

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:40 AM

You know, I was annoyed when I first read the initial post by Doug Chadwick. It was whiney, snobbish, insulting, etc. "What a dickweed," I though.

But then I RE-read it using the voice of Kelsey Grammer as Frasier Crane, and changed my mind. You are one (unintentionally) hilarious man, Doug Chadwick. I hope you never change. :}

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 10:50 AM

Och, wee maun, wee John, Aye kin what ye mean, the answer is clear, a single malt, feet up on the table, whistle t' the lips, and let fly w' a gude reel! Slante, Celtic cuz, Larry

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

And I notice that noone has come up with any examples of topics that could not be subjects for songs. I'm not surprised. If it were topics that have not so far been topics for songs it might be more possible - but even so it's not easy. The very act of identifying a topic is likely to be the first stage in creating a song of some kind about it.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

Now there ain't nuthin' makes this ol' hillbilly madder than one more person steppin' to the plate with an elitist, exclusionary chip on their shoulder.

Hey, this is a community. Not a column of goosesteppin' cookie-cutter, look-alike, sound-alike, think-alike, fresh-off-the-assembly-line...folk singers.

Like the bumper stciker says: "The mind is like a parchute. It won't work if its not open."

Danged....

Bobert

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM

Now I can understand Doug Chadwick raising the point he does. But what puzzles me is that whenever anyone does raise this issue you always get a few people who don't seem to see any contradiction between complaining about the presence of non-music threads in the very process of contributing to a non-music thread.

It strikes me that the same logic should apply here as it does with trolls and so forth - if you don't like something in this kind of context, the best thing to do is ignore it completely. If you don't like non-music threads don't add to them.

Myself I like the freedom to have all kinds of threads. If this was a music only site with the kind of rules and regulations about never drifting threads that seem to be prevalent, I doubt if I'd visit all that often, and that would have been my loss. And if it changed so that music wasn't the thing that links us here, I'm sure most of us wouldn't stay for too long or visit too often. It's a balancing act.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: MMario
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM

The main point is that although the e-magazine is according to the header dedicated to Blues and Folk - per the owner/creator (that would be Max) the FORUM is not.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:41 AM

If this were a "music only" site, I would not have received scores of e mails, PM's and comments in the forum about my problem. I cant tell you how valuable those have been to me. It's enough to make me renew my faith in humanity. As long as BS doesn't REPLACE music, I see no reason to complain.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:43 AM

When I first came to Mudcat I thought I need to read everything. Today, I think I actually READ fewer than one in ten threads (which keeps me pretty busy in any case). In many cases (whether music or not) I can tell by the thread name that I'm not interested, so I skip over them. In many more cases I'm not sure, so I open the thread and read the first one or maybe two posts. If it's not what I want to spend my time and attention on, MY BACK BUTTON WORKS JUST FINE, THANK YOU!

Go thou and do likewise.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:47 AM

Y'know, MMario, you're RIGHT! Perhaps it is merely a matter of semantics; however, the header does say "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music," not a "site", not a "forum." The magazine component definitely is what it says it is.

So y'all who get irritated that some of us like to participate in a little inane conversation now and again, just click on the Emuzine link at the top of the page. :-)

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 11:47 AM

Well, it's easy enough to ignore the threads you aren't interested in. I do it all the time - just like television shows. If it doesn't interest me I don't watch it. I may take a look and if it doesn't grab my attention I change the channel. Easy enough to do that with postings, and usually the title will tip you off.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:02 PM

Doug Chadwick: Though I disagree with your opinion, I have to say that I'm glad to see that you became a member of Mudcat and that you are posting your opinion under your own member-name. Too often I've seen this sort of complaint posted by a GUEST who either hasn't bothered to join up, or is a member but doesn't wish to be identified as such. So, thanks for "owning up" to your viewpoint and for being willing to accept the risk that you might be criticized as a result both on the Forum and in Private Messages. I sincerely hope that you have not received any abusive Private Messages (if you do, please notify the Mudcat administrators).

I've noticed from your posting history that you have contributed only to music threads on the Forum (except for this BS-about-Mudcat thread). That, of course, is your privilege, and no one here is going to force you to do otherwise. Likewise, the administrators at Mudcat are not going to force people to post comments on some topics and not others. If you read through the FAQ, you'll realize that that is Max's aim (Max being the head guy here).

When Max's upgrade is in place, you won't have to suffer through reading the titles of BS threads as you search for threads that will interest you. In the meantime, please be patient for that upgrade to arrive! Please do continue to read, and post to, those threads that you like... but remember that, as others have said, some BS threads are directly related to music as well and some BS discussions turn toward music as they progress!

It is as you say: Mudcat is for those who enjoy music. No matter what sort of BS we sometimes chat about, virtually all of the BS'ers enjoy music and contribute to music threads as well as BS threads. By all means, stay "on topic" if that's what you enjoy doing, but please don't deny others the enjoyment of incorporating our music into our daily lives, and our daily lives into our music.

Thanks,
Sharon

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:30 PM

OK!!

'nuff said.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: YOR
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 12:56 PM

Nuff said! OK, Somebody change the topic.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Fortunato
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:06 PM

Welcome to the mudcat, Doug. Here's the poop. Click the threads you like, and let the others be. Grab yourself a pint of Guiness and an InOBU CD and chill out. It's kind of like petting a puppy. cheers. Fortunato

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:14 PM

Welcome, Doug. Sorry you alighted on one of the two plat du jour here, BS & flame wars. Where do you practice music?

Skipjack

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:04 PM

And that was very gracious Doug. Thanks, and welcome.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

And, geeze, ol' bobert has calmed down now and...ahhh... sorry about the goose-steppin' comment above, Doug. Now ain't things gattin' warm and fuzzy here?...

Now, yeah, tell us about your music....

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:19 PM

Mr. Doug Chadwick:

A much more reasoned approach would be for you, if you don't like what is going on here, to start your own web site and limit it to who-or-what ever you like. Then you would be much happier, and Mudcat could continue on as it has lo these many years.

Lyle

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:36 PM

LYLE! Man said 'Nuff! Time to let the brother up and talk music with him!!! Someone pour Doug a pint. Step up t'the bar, and tell us about your musical tastes.... Larry

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 03:54 PM

Yeah, Doug, 'fess up! So far, all we know is that you tend to lose black picks on a dark floor... :^)

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:04 PM

SharonA! There is a new thread... a sort of patch up and have a drink with Doug... a drink and tune for Brother Chadwick... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 04:07 PM

Jon Freeman post on upgrade to separate general discussion from music:

My vote is against this proposal.

Subject: RE: stick to the point
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:22 PM

Me too, Dicho... NOW go have a pint with Doug in the Pint and a Tune with Brother Chadwick post. Cheers pal,Larry