American Ancestry part 2

Subject: American Ancestry part 2
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 07:52 PM

This is a continuation of the American Ancestry thread.I would be very grateful if somebody with the technology would post a clicky thingy to connect this back to that thread. I have started a second half because I can't access messages after 40 or so. Cheers Greg

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM

greg, I suspect it's because the English ancestry goes so far back in the history of the US. People whose families go that far back tend to like the fact that they are of English ancestry, but they also are very proud of the fact that their families have been in "America" for so long. So it's usually the "American" history that they are more concerned with.

And immigrants from other countries who came here later were confronted with a national identity that was largely English, so they saw themselves as different, and many (although hardly all) groups of immigrants became what could be described as "cultural sub-groups".

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:06 PM

Click here for previous thread.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:08 PM

Thanks CarolC

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:17 PM

Please, could the first person who reads this post a message to the American Ancestry thread to ask people to post any further messages to this thread. I cant read anything past number 42(I have a problem with long threads) and I REALLY want to read all the comments.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM

Here, greg. This is the only post that appears after your request, and my link at the end of that thread. Other than my own post, which I re-posted above...

Subject: RE: American ancestry
From: DonD
Date: 31-Mar-02 - 07:59 PM

Identity crisis time! It surely doesn't bring us together that we inevitably identify oursselves as ****-American! As a Jew who has no religion (and count that as a 'missing' category) I think that it's culture, not geography or nationality or 'blood' that identifies us. we hang out with and are comfortable with people who share the same cultural background, who recognize the same foods, the same dialect, the same attitudes -- and meybe if I hang around long enough I'll identify myself when asked as a Mudcatter. My greatgrandmother lived in Leeds and was called Jane Gordon! - but she was the daughter of refugees from Russia (I think). Does that count for the survey?

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:02 PM

I'm a Mongrel-American and am happily making it more so with my children who are partly descended from the people of Mesa Verde and Tenochtitlan and secret Marranos.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: MMario
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:57 PM

Dutch/English grandfather, Norwegian/german grandmother, and Northern Italian on the other side. The Dutch branch of the family predates the Pilgrims for generations in the US; The Italian is only really one generation (my Dad was born in the US but returned to Italy for a few years before returning to be raised in the US.) My Norwegian great grandmother was an immigrant, but her "German" husbands family had been here for several generations.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 10:13 PM

MMario, do they pre-date the English colonists in Virginia, too?

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Lucius
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 10:16 PM

I suppose that I'm in that category that CarolC mentioned, but I'm not as interested in English history as I am in family history.

My ancestors left Norway in 866 to move to France, and left there in 1066 to move to England. My first ancestor to America was a pirate that was barred by the Queen from returning to England (well after she knighted him).

On the other side, my family came over more recently from Poland. Coal miners.

I dance a form of morris that is called English dancing, much like I speak a language that is called English. But like many immigrants to this shore, I feel that my culture is pure American.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: MMario
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 10:18 PM

Carol - I know they were in what became New Amsterdam prior to 1620 - But not sure if they predated Jamestown or not.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:52 AM

In the other thread Ebbie asked:

Kat, the part we don't have, and that I would like to find, is the *human* element. How does one look up that kind of thing? I don't know if anyone in my family married someone of another race, (I do know about out-of-wedlock babies) or if there are any horse thieves, or any other kind of thief, any drunkards, any activists, any rebels... My ancestors (and contemporaries, for that matter) have been mostly farmers, carpenters and preachers. They tend to be pacifistic, so they don't go to war, they don't have phones, they don't own cars, they don't votem and they don't take part in community issues.

The best source, of course, are the elders who can be persuaded to tell their stories. Barring that, one usually has to go digging, sometimes deeply, looking for newspaper articles, published events such as marriages, births, etc. and, also, obituaries. All of those have the potential of having some human element hidden in them. Other branches of the family may have stories written down or know of someone who knows them. Of course, this is assuming some of your family *branched out* beyond the living style choices you listed.

I would ask at family forum sites such as GenForum. You have to create an account in order to post, now, but it is free and only takes a few minutes. I have constantly been amazed at the stories and info people have unearthed there and shared so willingly with others.

For an almost inexhaustible list of links for everything to do with genealogy, including newspapers, etc. check out Cyndi's List dot com. In all of my surfing, I've never found any other resource for links like this one.

Also, check for state genealogy sites. Generally each state has one with volunteers who do "lookups" of info. The stories are out there, Ebbie, they are just buried a little more deeply, sometimes.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:07 AM

The "default" as some of you are calling it, is a little thing known as the British empire. The US and Canada are known to North American historians as British North America. The Anglo designation is rooted in the British empire part of the equation folks. Why? Because first Britannia ruled. Then, Britannia's descendants ruled. Who rules now? The descendants of Britannia's descendants.

Have none of you ever had a US history class? Jaysus.

BTW, the percentages of population based on ancestry aren't fixed numbers. They have changed, sometimes dramatically, over time.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

BTW, I would disagree that the obsession here is only with Scottish and Irish traditions. I believe the obsession here is with English, Scottish and Irish traditions.

As I said in an earlier post, the designation of "folk" music in the US is widely believed to refer to the music traditions of Britain and Ireland. Then there is everyone else's folk music. You see that prejudice rear it's ugly head every now and then when someone from a non-British or Irish culture comes along and says something about the cultural assumption that folk=British or folk=Irish.

Again, has to do with the dominant culture default. It is no different than what is happening with the stupidly titled World Music Traditions in Britain with the likes of Peter Gabriel, et al. There is British and Irish music, which is folk music (to be avoided at all costs because it isn't hip), and then everyone else's music, which is world music. Which of course reflects a tremendous arrogance on the part of the British inventors who coined the term and have shoved it down the music industry's throat, but there you have it.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

My ancestors are largely German, Dutch, and French. However, that French family spent about 600 years in England... they were called Strode but when you get back to France, it's de la Strode. The Germans and Dutchmen came right off the boat - the Dutchmen to New Jersey in the 1600s, and the Germans to Pennsylvania in the 1770s.

It explains why I prize beer and tulips so much...

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:53 AM

Outside of joke fodder and a few great memories I have never found it within me to put any emphasis on or strong feelings toward my ancestry. I understand why it's a fascinating subject for many but I just don't happen to get into it myself.

I am of predominantly English ancestry. In the mid-forties one Margaret Birney Pittis wrote a book of the Pittis family genealogy and that traced my grandfather's family back to the Isle of Wight. My grandmother's family had no written history but also traced themselves back to England in the late 1700's.

My Dad's parents emigrated from Germany(mother) and Italy(father) and both were Ellis Island "veterans" with, in Grandpa's case, the sometimes accompanying name change which happened there. It was never a topic of conversation with the family and I learned most of what I know only because I kept asking about Grandpa's accent! My Dad put NO emphasis on his heritage at all and I guess I just follwoed suit.

I picked up a lot more of the Italian side simply because I grew up in a community with a relatively large percentage of Italian-Americans and I enjoyed the way they spoke and the food. Listening to men of my Dad's generation was a riot.....None spoke the language much, but the "sound" and the animated speech was truly priceless.

Most of them were WWII vets and a high number had served in the Italian campaign, my Dad included.   They were much more focused on being "Americans" than anything else so many of my friends as well as myself never cared or thought much about that either.

I think the other thing which was an interesting influence on my "Don't Care" attitude was that we moved when I was in the 5th grade. The Columbus suburb we moved to went from 750 people to 20,000 people in 3 years. As one of my classmates said at a 30 year reunion, "We were all from somewhere else in the 5th grade so it wasn't important to anybody what anyone had done or been before. The only way we could make friends was based on the here and now." Completely true. So almost all of us grabbed onto our new community as home and being a "Reynoldsburg Raider"....school team name.... was far more important than whether you were anything else.

Spaw

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:09 AM

Mom - Hungarian via Yugoslavia (Serbia)
Dad - his mom was Russian and his father of French extraction, but since the original ancestor from France (think Coneheads - we're from France) came over in the 1700's, via Ireland, there is likely to be some Irish in that 1/4. There is also some Cherokee, so as Americans go, my ancestors (or at least some of them) were Americans before the term America arose. Possibly some English or whatever other Americans were around in the 1800's and 1900's. But we are a xenophilic family, men with my last name tend to marry foreigners. When I was growing up there was not a single living Mrs. MyLastName who had a native accent in English, what with the Russian grandmother and Puerto Rican aunt and Hungarian mother and...

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: pattyClink
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:10 AM

Well, the 'answer' to the original question, as I see it, is we in the US are mono-lingual. Most don't grow up speaking any other languages but English. This means that the folk song traditions accessible to us (and to audiences) are those of English-speaking countries. So if you're into folk singing, you tend to get into the British Isles. And there is a large overlap of people for whom that was their distant nation of origin anyway.

People of German and Slavic decent who are more 'into' their own musical roots rather than ballad stuff tend to go into instrumental bands in general, and some into ethnic polka bands, which are their own little interest groups. Hispanic bands and groups also exist and operate in their own widening networks. Same with Cajun bands and groups, and Klezmer, etc. We could theoretically all learn each other's songs phonetically, but we'd wind up with puzzled audiences and screwed-up traditions.

In other words, there are a lot of 'traditions' active around here, and the English speaking one just happens to be the one called 'folk'. It doesn't make sense, but that's how it is.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 01:16 PM

From the US Census Bureau website:

LANGUAGE SPOKEN AT HOME Population 5 years and over 254,746,174 English only 209,860,377 Language other than English 44,885,797 Speak English less than "very well" 19,492,832 Spanish 26,745,067 Speak English less than "very well" 12,463,516 Other Indo-European languages 9,479,670 Speak English less than "very well" 3,103,665 Asian and Pacific Islander languages 6,864,461 Speak English less than "very well" 3,395,653 Other languages 1,796,599 Speak English less than "very well" 529,998

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:06 PM

I am a citizen of the United States ... of America. I've got Scots and Irish in me, as well as a little Welsh, Cherokee, and even some African (from the slave days.) It's by far the Gaelic blood that boils in me. I've no idea how long ago my ancestry came to this continent.

As for English blood, I claim none. My wife had a tea towel that had a cute saying on it. Has anybody ever heard it or read it? Here it is:

First, there were the Welsh, who prayed on their knees ... ...and their neighbors.

Then, there were the Irish, who never knew what they wanted, but were willing to fight for it, anyway.

Next were the Scots, who kept the Sabbath, and everything else they could lay their hands on.

And then came the English, who proclaimed themselves a self-made nation, thus relieving the Almighty of a dreadful responsibility.

No offense intended. Just an attempt at a little humour (as you lot over there spell the word.)

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:24 PM

Hee hee, guest, that towel is not bad!

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:39 PM

Thanks for the tips, kat. I'll be working on it!

Eb

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:29 PM

I forgot to mention, there is an unsubstantiated rumor that one of my great-great-grandmothers was Native American. Nobody seems to know for sure, although it is probable. I don't really claim it since it's not an outright certainty.

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST,Just Amy
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 04:54 PM

I too love the towel.

My husband is only first generation American. His parents are from Austria and he was actually born in Canada.

I am American from good German stock on my father's side (before the Revolution) and second generation American from my English grandparents (Worchester & Devon) on my mother's side.

What does that make me? The all American girl I'm hoping!

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST,welshman
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 01:51 PM

Have recently discovered my roots extend directly back to the Jamestown settlement on my 2xgrmother's side and to Wales(1655...Richard Jones) on my 2xgrfather's side. My sisters' qualify as Daughters of the American Revolution 'and' Daughters of the Confederacy thru the same people. A cousin on my 2xgrmother's side is one of the signatures on the Declaration of Indepenence. My 2xgrfather was 2nd president of Richmond College which has become Richmond University. He was the first keynote speaker for the Southern Baptist Convention in the 1850s. My 3xgrfather on my 2xgrmother's side was the guy who burned the bridge after Lee crossed over to surrender. That's through my ptgrfathers side. Through my ptgrmother we're direct decendents of Stonewall Jackson's father who was a brother of Andrew Jackson. My mtgrfather was a doctor of some note and we're English back to William the Conqueror. He was a Norman, yes? So, that gives us a little French into the mix. My father had done some geneology in the mid 50's before it became in vogue to do so and was able to get names of ancestors both prominent and obscure. My sister has been doing a ton of legwork of late and has begun the process of connecting the dots. It's been interesting and fun to discover my heritage extends back to the beginnings of this country, euro-centricly speaking, of course. Politics aside it's given me something of value to share with my son, who's got a real strong sense of himself and where he comes from as a result. 'That' is the real value in tracing of one's roots as you discover your family is comprised of high/low characters usually in equal measure. We're members of the St. Davids Society and consider myself a Welsh/American, but I could just as easily be considered English, one could suppose. As the years progress and I continue to dig into my musical/social heritage I find more and more to be moved by music of the Celtic cultures. Makes me ache inside in a way hard to explain. And while there's no doubting my heritage there's no doubt I'm all American, too. Have a nice day!

Subject: RE: American Ancestry part 2
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:46 PM

My musical heritage is entirely borrowed. What I mean is, although there has always been a good deal of love of, and talent for, music in my family, what truly moves me is mostly from the Appalachians and the South, and my family doesn't have history in either place.

Otherwise, I'm a mutt. I don't think of myself as an anything-American.

Mom--English/Welsh/Irish/either German or Jewish (one pair of her great-grandparents never married and the whole thing was hushed-up). Everyone thinks she's Native American until they see she has blue eyes; she has dark skin, very straight black hair, and a round face. The Welsh settled in Pennylvania in the 1680's and a lot of the English and Irish were Quakers who came over to escape religious persecution (including a family that came with William Penn).

Dad--mostly dark Germans (my grandfather's father was from Germany, his mother was Amish), Swiss-Moravian/English/tiny bit of French.

My brother is 6 foot 3, blonde, and blue-eyed and passed very nicely for Norwegian when we were in Stavanger in 1992; his Swedish/Norwegian girlfriend looks more like him than I do.