BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 06:16 PM

Ha! No, LEJ, at age 25 I might have thought that, but not anymore...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:48 AM

Bob Dylan?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:45 PM

Well, you know Bob Dylan is one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 12:30 PM

Thanks LH!

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 01:01 AM

Ah. Good question, Celtic Soul...I will PM you about that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 11:55 PM

Little Hawk said: "Little do they know that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4rth coming have already happened! And gone unnoticed by virtually all of them. That's what usually happens. Most of them didn't accept Christ when he came either, remember? And his coming was prophesied numerous times. He didn't do precisely what they wanted done, so they figured he wasn't the one. Typical."

Most people didn't accept Christ or his teachings when he was alive, that's very true. And you're right...they wanted him to be someone he was not. They were looking for a conquering, avenging Messiah. Not the peace preaching, turn the other cheek kind of guy he turned out to be. I am interested in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th comings you mention though...is there anyone in specific you are referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From:
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:39 PM

part two will be started.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 09:36 PM

and the point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 10:30 PM

its funny that often the people who cry racism are often the biggest ones. (if you paint the israelis with one brush or the liberal media, or for that matter religious right media you are making the same type of blanket statement you are complaining about - without referring to specific facts.)

I just wanted to respond to Little Hawks comments about 'cowardly acts' probably I should have chosen other words 'treacherous' comes to mind (since that might be what you would call an act of war between nations at peacetime. (Despite the fact the US knew its economic policy towards Japan might lead it to war sooner or later it a bit of a stretch to say they were both responsible ie. cutting off scrap iron doesnt equal a preemptive strike on Pearl harbor (one is an economic move the other is an act of war). the semantics are beside the point anyway, my point was that while horrific the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were as bad as any other act of war and to single out the US as an example ignores all the other horrific acts and all the other civilians that died in the war. Truman also saw the wisdom not to use them in the Korean War when Macarthur called for them.

the fact of the matter is this discussion started about Saddam and nuclear weapons, and on that point we should be thankful that the Israelis knocked out the Baghdad reactor in 81.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 09:10 PM

Little do they know that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4rth coming have already happened! And gone unnoticed by virtually all of them. That's what usually happens. Most of them didn't accept Christ when he came either, remember? And his coming was prophesied numerous times. He didn't do precisely what they wanted done, so they figured he wasn't the one. Typical.

They all think the world's going to end. Well, it's not, but it is going to change. Matter of fact, it's changing with each passing day.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 08:07 PM

BTW, with regard to the Christian right and the anti-Palestinian, pro-Israeli position they are taking... it has less to do with racism and more to do with the prophecy that Israel has to exist in order for the second coming to happen. And they really, really want the second coming to happen. The sooner the better for a lot of them from what I've heard from some of them.

Saw Yossi Beilin on TV this evening. Not only is he incredibly intelligent, articulate, soft spoken, and kind, but he's also quite a cutie!

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 02:00 PM

Be right with you LH. Uh...isn't it your turn to buy?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 12:44 PM

LOL! I guess we could all just remain silent, not surf the net at all...or at least keep our big mouths shut, and never express an opinion about anything, if we do. In that way we could avoid ever offending anyone such as the aforementioned GUEST, and wouldn't that be grand!

Imagine it...a world full of completely unoffended people...a world where no one ever speaks up about anything until he or she has received authorization from...someone in a very high and unquestionable position of moral and intellectual authority...someone infallible...someone all-powerful and never wrong...like...GUEST!

Hmmmmm....

I say we appoint GUEST (after we figure out which GUEST "GUEST" actually is...) as dictator for life over the Internet! Then GUEST can sanction who gets to speak here and who doesn't, weeding out the ignorant know-nothings, racists, etc, among us...and everything will be wonderful, and no one will ever again be offended!

What a paradise of truth and simplicity this forum could become if that were done.

I say we get right on it. Somebody PM Max about this.

Given the fact that my opinions are all over the map, are frequently tainted with satire and irony, and are almost bound to offend someone, I'm going to do my bit by logging off right now! See ya.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Troll
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 08:38 AM

Thanks for sharing that with us GUEST. I'm sure we will all take your posting in the spirit in which it was given.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 08:31 AM

Shapiro is certainly doing a damn lot more than this bunch of know-nothings spouting their ignorant, often racist opinions in internet forums about subjects they haven't a clue about.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 02:15 PM

I'm guessing that the Palestinians Shapiro is helping by doing simple everyday things, like bringing food or giving comfort, probably really appreciate that help. And if that's all he is able to accomplish, I think that will be a hell of a lot.

However, I suspect that the greatest contribution Shapiro and the others like him will be making will be that of pioneer and role model. He and his cohorts are showing what can be done. And when other people see this, some of them will decide to do it too. And then more, and more.

I don't think Shapiro will take all of the credit for this. And from what I saw of him on the television, I suspect that he wouldn't want all of the credit. Or necessarily even any of it. I suspect that the work he is doing is its own reward.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Troll
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 11:29 AM

Shapiro is seen by some as a hero and by others (the Jewish community in MY town anyway) as a traitor. Unless he can engender massive support from BOTH sides of the question, I don't see how what he and his fiance are doing can hope to be anything but a guesture.
Granted, all movements must start somewhere, but I see his act of conscience (if it is that) as a bit futile. I think that the bset that he can hope for is just what he has gotten; a little media coverage and then death or obscurity.
Time will tell.
I support the right of the Palestinians to a homeland but not at the expense of the destruction of the state of Israel. The only way I can see to do that is to seal off one group from the other with a wall to be patrolled by the UN. I have already voiced my thoughts on Jerusalem.
These things would have to be imposed from the outside because neither side would willingly accept them. Both sides would have to be told that this is how it is going to be, period, and the rest of the world would have to be willing to back it up.
This will never happen. There will be war. Both groups feel that right is on their side and they are probably correct.
Am I biased one way or the other? Of course, but not so much that I cannot at least see the oppositions argument and recoginze valid points.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 11:26 AM

CarolC says:

"My point is that since the attacks have only targeted my sister and no-one else, even though she is not the only person on this thread who holds the position she does, the accusations that she is a racist should not be taken seriously."

Right, since there are other anti-Arab racists in the thread who haven't been singled out for their racist remarks, means Celtic Soul doesn't have a towel head hating bone in her body!

I'm sure. "My sister" CarolC? Three words:

Oh....my....god

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 02:46 AM

Correspondent Michael Holmes (CNN): Instead of planning their wedding in the States, (Adam Shapiro and his Palestinian-American fiancee, Huwaida Arraf, are) challenging the Israeli Army in the West Bank.

Arraf: My family is extremely worried, my mom calls me every day, come home...

Correspondent: During our interview, gunfire. They don't even notice.

Shapiro: I feel good about what I'm doing, and I feel it's the right thing to do at this moment, so if a bullet were to hit me, and this was to happen, at least I feel secure, and I think my family feels secure, and people who know me know that I'm doing what I feel is right to be doing at this time.

Correspondent: They are among dozens of foreign nationals in the West Bank defying cerfews, delivering food; taking what they call non-violent direct action, hoping white vests and bravado will keep them alive.

A day after the tanks rolled into Ramallah (sp?), they started appearing on these empty streets. From Europe, the United States, even from Israel, supporting, they say, Palestinian civilians and opposing occupation.

They're still arriving. This, a strategy meeting for new arrivals: advice for the uninitiated:

Arraf (speaking to assembled meeting): I can tell you, when I'm standing in front of a tank that has just fired, and your determined not to move, you're holding on to the just nature of this struggle and believing that your right is stronger than their might.

Correspondent: Perhaps no better example of their audacity (some say foolishness), than when this group strolled past tanks, soldiers, and warning shots to enter Yassir Arafat's (sp?) office last week. Some thirty or so are still there.

After the fighting died down at this apartment block, activists literally played tug of war with an injured Palestinian. The army won, but nothing seems to deter these people.

Arraf: People that I think are motivated and are moved to come and put their lives at risk, are operating, basically, on the fundamentals of humanity that we would hope would motivate everyone to act.

Correspondent (to the couple): There's got to be plenty of people who say, "Look, you just shouldn't be here. You're setting yourselves up, and if you get shot, well, it's your own fault.

Shapiro: To an extent that's true. We do take responsibility for ourselves, and we don't seek to lay that responsibility if we get hurt.

Correspondent: Adam Shapiro is keenly aware of his Jewish name. Not, he says in Ramallah, but when he crosses Israeli military checkpoints.

Shapiro: When soldiers see my name, and I'm crossing a checkpoint coming into Ramallah and they find out I live here, I think it forces them to question for a second, how I can exist and live here, perfectly normally, and not have any problems, when they're trained to think that this is a hotbed of terrorism and that people here want to kill all the Jews. And that's just simply not the fact.

Correspondent: For now, the odd couple are staying put. They will leave, but only because Adam's visa expires soon. Micheal Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 12:54 AM

Let me rephrase that last bit:

Too bad you had to make it personal, though. I used to have a hell of a lot of respect for you as a human being precisely because I thought you were above that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 12:21 AM

Wow troll. Disingenuous? You really feel that way? I didn't realize that things had gotten personal between us.

Ok. Here's my answer without calling you any names:

It would be naive of me to accept just on your word for it that you approached your reply of 09-Apr-02 - 11:49 PM without bias. It's just as possible for you to use bias when you select which quotes to include as it is if you comment on the things you have posted.

Regarding the opinion piece you posted: you didn't include the author's name or any information about him/her. The article I posted has a name attached, and we have some important information about the author.

Lastly, I don't think anyone has called you a racist. My point is that since the attacks have only targeted my sister and no-one else, even though she is not the only person on this thread who holds the position she does, the accusations that she is a racist should not be taken seriously.

Too bad you had to make it personal, though. I used to have a hell of a lot of respect for you as a human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Troll
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 12:08 AM

Not really but I can't spell disingenuous. BTW, did you know that "naive" is "evian" backwards?
I wonder if these "designer water" people are having a laugh at their customers expense.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:53 PM

You really enjoy calling me naive, don't you troll? (*g*) I'll have a response to your response later.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Troll
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:49 PM

Sorry CarolC. It was the Opinion Journal of the Wall Street Journal. It's a daily column on a news site that I read fairly regularly. I should have been more specific.
However, to imply that a straight news article is automatically less biased that an opinion piece is naive (again). The reporters bias will come through as will the bias of the papers editorial policy. It's all in how you say it. It's called spin and both sides do it, so which side you believe depends upon your bias.
As the following shows.
Jewish students coming out of worship services have been pelted with eggs and subjected to epithets, Oleon said. Last week someone threw a cinder block through the front windows and wrote "F--- Jews" in black marker on the Jewish Hillel cultural center's recycling bins. Some Jewish students believe that Berkeley professors, even those who are Jewish, have unfairly come down hard on Israel in lectures.

But Palestinian students say they too are harassed on campus--labeled as terrorists and as being anti-Semitic just for voicing their opposition to Israel. Some say Zionist students have tried to intimidate them by declaring their intentions to join the Israeli army after graduation.

Note how the Chronicle sets up a parallel between the experiences of the two groups of students. Yet in fact they are anything but equivalent. The Jews are subjected to physical assault for practicing their faith. The Palestinians' only complaint is that their feelings are hurt because others disagree with their political opinions.

Also, is there a bigger wimp anywhere than the Palestinian students who are "intimidated" by fellow Berkeleyites threatening to join the Israeli army? The West Coast is a long way from the West Bank, after all, and Israeli tanks are not going to roll into Berkeley--pleasing though that thought may be.

Where Are the French When You Need Them? "A Palestinian military court sentenced six Palestinians to death yesterday for collaborating with Israel," the Jerusalem Post reports. "The sentences were handed down in a secret session held in the pre-dawn hours in Gaza City, Palestinian security officials said." One of the purported collaborators, a 15-year-old, had his sentence commuted to 15 years of hard labor.

Ha'aretz reports that the European Union, which strongly opposes the death penalty in the U.S., Turkey and elsewhere, is considering trade sanctions--against Israel.
This is pretty much quote without comment. You can make of it what you will.

troll

BTW. For those who would label me a racist, I've been called that before. I didn't believe it then either.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:11 PM

Lepus, while we may not agree, I respect your right to your views. I believe in free speech, and would defend your rights to it as passionately as my own.

Thanks for the post, I appreciate the thought greatly.

As for whether I am wrong or no, I will happily state that I know I am not 100% right about *anything*. Much of what makes up a persons POV is subjective...mine included. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:07 PM

"But I don't think that Celtic Soul isn't a racist" --- Uh, should read "But I don't think that Celtic Soul is a racist." Duh. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:54 PM

LH, you beat me to saying that, and said it better than I would've. :) In anger, I've wrongly accused people of being racists here (on other threads, that is) and in real life, and always regretted it when I calmed down. It's a cheap way to end a conversation and damage another person's reputation, but which usually only shows what a dick you truly are. (though Carol's "throw 'em in a jar and see if they fight" theory may have been the real reason, too) It's this sort of attack that brought me into another Middle East thread here a few days ago, where another member was throwing around words like 'nazi' and 'anti-semite' to describe those who disagreed with his views on Israel. It's a cheap, lame-ass tactic, used by both sides (hey, just like terrorism!), and anyone who uses it (myself included) should be kicked in the balls (or equally sensitive female part of your choice).

So...that...uh, GUEST used this cheap, lame-ass tactic is a shame, because s/he has been making some great points. But I don't think that Celtic Soul isn't a racist. She's wrong, but not a racist. :)

CelticSoul, it seems that my 'review' of your radio station probably contributed to GUESTS personal attacks, or at least made it seem more like a group effort. Whether it did or not, I apologise for my unnecessary wise-ass comments at the end of that post. I've been labelled an anti-semite for my anti-Israel views here before, and if I cared what a bunch of friggin' Zionists thought of me, it'd suck. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:58 PM

How does one suppose the mothers of the people who fought and died in the US revolution felt about their fallen sons (and daughters?). I can't help noticing that the very freedoms we say our founding fathers were fighting for, are things that the Palestinian people have been denied for so long. We have a cult of hero worship about those "patriots" who secured our status as an independent nation. Yet we revile the Palestinians for wanting the same things.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:48 PM

please everyone do a google search as I did under Palestinian grief mothers...there are over 2,000 entries. here is one..read about their demonization...http://www.wclac.org/paper/position.html

I am so horrified by this statement about Palestinian mothers...while realizing that it is partially true, sometimes true perhaps...but in the context of so much....certainly we realize that someone could be dancing in the streets with "joy"...while her heart is breaking...this is truly shocking to me...a veteran of a very cruel war..mg

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:33 PM

Someone has me confused with LEJ! Amusing... Well, LEJ is someone whom I have loads of respect for, so that's not much of a problem, I guess.

I'll say this about racism. I think that virtually every human being has at least a tiny little bit of racism in them, unless they have attained literal sainthood. Most of us don't let it get out of hand, however, and almost all of us are aware that it is wrong.

This is the same as to say that virtually every human being lies now and then, is greedy at times, is self-centred at times, avoids responsibility at times...and so on.

The fact that we have these negative tendencies can serve as a spur to self-examination and self-improvement.

We are all bigots about something...but we usually don't realize it until some situation awakens in us a radical change in perception.

To simply label someone a "racist" is to tar a complex human being, a creature of many colours, in a single unbroken hue. And that is an error. It leaves nothing further of any use to be said about...or to the person.

It's pointless.

I am frankly tired of people calling other people "racists". There's been far too much of it in the past few decades. Say that their statement has racist implications if you like, say that they are supporting a racist policy, but why take a complex human being whom you don't even know personally, and reduce their identity to one nasty little word...racist?

Until there is absolutely no racism left in you (and I bet that's not quite the case if you really take a good look at yourself)...then you are not in a position to throw that particular stone at someone else, and limit their identity to such a label.

I'll say that double regarding all the yoyos who played the "race card" on behalf of O.J. Simpson, and crassly manipulated the "justice" system in the USA. Talk about hypocrisy on a grand scale...and all in the name of fighting racism...Ha!

Just like terrorists righteously accusing other terrorists of...terrorism...we see a lot of that these days. They are all guilty of it. The only questions are: where, when, and to what extent? And when will they learn better?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:09 PM

I think the activities of one of the Guests on this thread have been nothing more than a little social experiment to see how two sisters with differing points of view would respond if one or the both of them were attacked personally. Note that troll has not been attacked for having the much the same position as Celtic Soul. And note the amusing little attack on me suggesting that I curry favor with other Mudcatters.

Now that we all know what sort of a head game we're dealing with, maybe we can get back to discussing the issue at hand rather than the Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From:
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:34 PM

That was a horrible representation of Palestinian mothers. I really doubt they all celebrate and offer other children to the flames. I have heard, in what little I have been able to hear, without a TV now, their anguish, not only about the tragedies unfolding (which Palestinians are doing terrible things in, I agree..) but the way they are portrayed as mothers and fathers, sending their very young children into confrontations...quite the opposite is true (I have heard..I am not on the ground there) in some cases..fathers are beating their sons black and blue to keep them home. I am sure that what Deda said is true for some..maybe many, but certainly not all. I used to support a rotation of Palestinian children through Save the Children..they were in an orthopedic hospital for a variety of ailments...I have pictures of them in their hospital beds. (this is totally irrelevant to everything..but I think they were in Bethlehem)...I don't know what the truth is...I know that is a partial truth and a very hurtful stereotype which we would with impunity not impart to many of our "enemies." I think a lot is being attributed to many Palestinians that is not true of the whole population..or a majority of the population...but the situation is getting more dire by the minute. Again, for the record, I do not condone the violence and have not berated anyone for defending themselves against it. I would do the same. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:05 PM

All...

I am a "racist" for one simple reason. I have posted things that "GUEST" disagrees with, and offered up another viewpoint on a very complex matter. It matters not one iota what the truth is, it matters not one iota how I conduct myself in my life.

If anyone would like to know how "racist" I am, they can ask someone who has known me my entire life and who also posts in this forum. My sister, CarolC.

And that is all I have to say to an unnamed anonymous hit and run "GUEST" who will not even offer evidence to refute the facts I have presented.

I am deeply saddened for all other GUESTS in this forum, as it is impossible to tell them apart from people such as this. For me, I am simply not willing any longer to address or converse with anyone without a name here, as it is impossible to tell when it is someone who is baiting for a fight, or someone who has *already* caused mayhem for the 'Cat.

And as for how you conduct yourself in person, I am more than happy to see how accurate this claim is. Any time. My e-mail is listed.

I suppose you'll all get to hear why this is a repugnant idea for "GUEST" now. I have no disillusions that "GUEST" would ever accept.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Deda
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:40 PM

Guest has promised that he/she was done with all this several times now, but can't seem to keep the promise. I have a bias, as will be obvious, and I have an identity, which I have not covered up. I know that most Israelis pray for peace and are willing to compromise to get it (that may not have always been true, but it is now). I believe that most Palestinians want vengeance more than they want peace. They want revenge, blood-letting, and sole control, not co-existence. (They allow as how Jews would be permitted to live in their Islamic state once they control it, but they won't be full citizens.) Israel is accused of being insensitive in its dealings w/ the Palestinians, and it certainly has been; it's very hard to be sensitive toward someone who is holding a gun to your head and who hates you utterly. When an Israeli mother's son dies in this war, her heart breaks; she weeps, she grabs her surviving children to her, she grieves forever and she never recovers. When a Palestinian boy blows himself up, his mother celebrates, dances in the street and ululates with joy for his martyrdom, and offers up the lives of all her remaining children. Golda Meir said, "When the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us, then we will have peace." That day has not come and I can only keep praying that it ever will. I have a day job and I can't spend the time that Guest purports to every day doing research on arcane points of history. This isn't about history for me, it is about my family. I don't have time to spend even on just enjoying mudcat as much as I'd like, let alone in reading and writing jeremiads (which I confess this to be) so there is not much point in "ad feminam" attacks on me personally--not that that will necessarily prevent them. But know that I am not likely to see them. BTW, I am politically a fairly progressive liberal on other subjects than this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 04:28 PM

I apologize for confusing the two of you, however the irony is lost on me.

As to the "you haven't proved she is a racist because you haven't proven her assertions wrong" charge, my posts of 7 Apr 10:33, 11:52, and 12:48 prove that to be an utterly disingenous claim. I also said it was my belief that "we ourselves have the burden upon us to know historic fact well enough to be able to distinguish between ideology and history. Between fact and bias."

If you look back to that post, you will see I am stating that it isn't necessary for me to give the history of the Middle East to "justify" my remarks about Celtic Soul. Rather, the onus is on each individual to educate themselves about that history if they don't know it, and decide for themselves who is racist, and who isn't.

I need not address every point a racist poster makes, to "prove" they are racist. At some point, for there to be any meaningful consensus on what is racist and what isn't, we must see racist remarks for what they are.

I also disagree that it is counter-productive to communicate one's displeasure with racist behavior when it rears its ugly head in one's presence. Quite the contrary, I believe it is one of the few effective deterrents society has to see that behavior changed. I'm not going to shut up and go away because people don't like to have racist behavior occurring in their midst brought to their attention. I'm glad to ruin everyone's day, if it will change the thinking and behavior of a single racist, or someone who claims to be anti-racist, but doesn't have the guts to call someone they have fond feelings for, on their racist behavior.

If enough members (particularly the more respected members) of this forum started calling out those members who are consistently guilty of showing their racist, bigoted colors here, either overtly or subtly, we would soon see a dramatic decline in that behavior, I assure you. I've seen it happen.

If people here are serious about wanting to make this a strong, positive community, they wouldn't just keep paying lipservice to being anti-racist, and would instead do something about it when it rears it's head here.

Another good reason why I choose to remain an outsider--I'm not willing to call myself a member of any community that tolerates the hate we so often see expressed and defended in this forum.

Now, I'm done with this thread. The rest of you can do with it what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

Guest, it's ironic that you have me mixed up with Little Hawk, because he is someone with whom I often disagree, but for whom I have unfailing respect as a person who discusses issues with respect for all others in the argument. Perhaps this is because we know something about one another. I know that LH is a Dylan fan, has (like me) some native-american heritage, enjoys a good Shatner joke, is a Canadian, etc. I look forward to joking, arguing, and perhaps someday making some music with him. Even though we might become incensed about a remark, I have learned much from him, and hope I have been able to bring a different viewpoint to him on occasion. And that is what makes this a "community" as so many have called it...I would like to convince LH that I am right, not bully or castigate him.

Categorizing people as racists who should be condemned so that others will feel more empowered to condemn them is counter-productive. IF you feel CS is a racist, shouldn't you attempt to show her why you feel that way in a manner which would help change her point of view, or at least show the others who are following the argument the errors in her position? My guess is, because no one knows who you are, you feel that you can condemn her without bringing any antagonism on yourself. That runs counter to a little notion known as "responsibility", doesn't it?.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 03:13 PM

Hamshank, I disagree that we should be civil and polite to people who are voicing racist viewpoints. We need to be articulate, passionate, and uncompromising when we are directly confronted by such behavior, which I was in this instance.

Why are you so willing to be tolerant of Celtic Soul's racist behavior, and so intolerant of my supposed incivility?

To me, that suggests you believe that incivility is a worse sin than racism.

And on that point, I would disagree vociferously. No one has ever been lynched for being impolite, to my knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 03:05 PM

No, you are wrong again Guest 6b.

There is a clear cut difference between making a genuine effort to overcome racism, bigotry, sexism, homophobia when we are confronted by it in our midst, and sermonizing about one's political views. Fighting racism, et al isn't about politics. It is about doing the decent thing for the good of all.

Making racists feel uncomfortable, particularly in public social situations, is one of the most important ways we have of getting people to change their racist behavior. The pressure to get people to conform to non-racist behavior and thinking is one of the most powerful tools we have as a society, to effect that sort of social change.

You have already stated you don't find any trace of racism in Celtic Soul's remarks, so I don't find it at all odd that you are attempting to discredit me by continuing to make these silly accusations. It is obvious you are of that group mind which shares Celtic Soul's anti-Arab views. Denying that now won't make you look any better than she does.

And now, I'm done with this conversation with you as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:58 PM

GUEST: You are dead right. I don't know you, and therefore I probably had no business implying that you are an asshole. It's just that a lot of the verbiage in your posts, especially your incivility toward Celtic Soul, make you sound like one. I will defend anybody's right to think and say what they will, whether I agree with them or not. Though I will also stand up for the right to differ with the opinions of others, I believe we should strive to disagree with a little diplomacy and grace. IMHO, just because CS's views are unlike your own, you've no call to be hostile. As I said, I don't agree with some of the views she has expressed here, either. But ... She has never been anything but pleasant and civil on this forum from her very first posting as a new member, and she does not deserve to be disparaged. Remember, it was Adolph Hitler's "personal and moral values" that "required" him to think and do what he did. And before anybody jumps in, no, I am not Jewish. But I wouldn't be ashamed if I was.

HS

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,Guest #6(b)
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:48 PM

That's exactly the point, Guest. Ad hominem is not meaningful, and ratchets up the emotional tone. And you have not chosen to bow out.

I'll listen to substance, and I think several others will, and several others won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:24 PM

I have shared my knowledge here and in other threads, and will continue to do so in future.

What I won't do is continue to discuss issues with people who are determined to see that the issues not be discussed, which is what happens when enough people begin flame baiting, making wild and indefensible claims, and generally attempting to ratchet up the emotional tone of the conversation because they don't see it going their way.

I am a long-time veteran of internet discussion forums, and I can easily tell when the serious discussion is ending, and the flame baiters are taking over. Once that happens, it is unusual for the discussion to remain on-topic. And that point I almost always bow out. My choice, and you don't have to agree with it. But no one else can dictate when that point is for me, or anyone else contributing meaningfully to a discussion. It is always a personal call.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,Guest #6(b)
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:14 PM

Guest, you are well spoken, and apparently have a knowledge base that differs from the mainstream majority. But you won't share it, which seems a shame. You say you don't have time to share it, but you do have time for ad hominem. It seems to me that if you care about the issues, you would bother to be persuasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:06 PM

No not all Mudcatters are racist bigots, LH. I don't believe either you or CarolC are, for instance. I am perfectly capable of distinguishing between those who are, and those aren't, given enough time to read what everyone is saying carefully.

But that doesn't change the fact that many people who are racist, but do not wish to be perceived as racist, will often come to the defense of someone who has been attacked for expressing their seemingly innocuous (to closet racists) racist views in public.

That is the group mind which shares those views I'm talking about.

As to my style in calling CS a racist bigot, I stand by it. Calling someone out on their racism isn't something that can be done politely, under any circumstance. It will always result in a ratcheting up of the emotional tone in the discussion. Nonetheless, it still needs to be done.

Or are you suggesting LH, that there are no racist bigots regularly spewing their propaganda here in Mudcat--some overtly, but most either covertly or with a bit more "polite" and "nice" subtlety?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:53 PM

As I said, I don't suffer fools for the sake of politeness, especially in internet forums where people's bigoted behavior is routinely defended by the group mind which shares those beliefs and values.

Well Guest, you've made remarkable progress haven't you? In the course of presenting your argument, you've moved from calling CS a racist bigot, to calling all of us racist bigots. You're unflinching devotion to your belief is admirable, but your powers of persuasion are straight from Attila the Hun. If this behavior is what you refer to as what "your personal and moral values require" in real life, I'm not surprised you take pride in being an insulting asshole since most people are going to see you that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:02 PM

I just realized something. I'm beginning to think that Sharon isn't going to consider himself finished with the job until he's done to the Palestinians what he would like to do to the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:57 PM

Fair enough, Guest Hamshank, so 4 Apr 3:28 isn't you. Whomever that guest is, they are quite good at trolling (it was me they were attempting to do it to, which is why I ignored the post).

As to your suggestion that I am an insulting asshole, I will only say this. You don't know me. I have called Celtic Soul a racist from the lunatic religious right fringe, which is what I believe she truly is. If saying so makes me an insulting asshole, I'm proud to be one.

As I said, I don't suffer fools for the sake of politeness, especially in internet forums where people's bigoted behavior is routinely defended by the group mind which shares those beliefs and values.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM

Hi, all:

I never meant to open such a can of worms, (or set the stage for more abusive posts). I should've known better. But this thread did bring out some interesting opinions and observations. That's what enthralls me about the Cat. There are a lot of smart people here.

I posted the article to start this thread as soon as I read it, which was the first I had heard of the story. I wasn't aware of it in March, so this was not an attempt to "hype" the story. I don't like what Iraq is doing, and I wanted to generate a discussion about it.
Now, while I don't agree with everything Celtic Soul has expressed in her posts to this thread, I applaud her eloquence, especially the civil, even-tempered way in which she put that insulting asshole of an anonymous Guest in their place. And to that GUEST: Sorry to disappoint you, but I started this thread, and the GUEST poster of 4 Apr 3:28 is not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM

Then I suggest you take the time to go find the answer. I've much better things to do with my time, thank yo very much.

I'm not interested in refuting the claims of racists on the internet, point by point. I don't believe it is unreasonable to presume that Celtic Soul's (to use the current example) choice of using racist anti-Palestinian propaganda taken from a right wing Christian radio station (and yes, I checked it out) doesn't reflect her racist personal views. In fact, I find it perfectly reasonable to presume Celtic Soul is an anti-Arab racist, based upon her posting history in this forum, particularly in this thread.

I hold people accountable for what they say. Your statement that "she has reported facts which you dispute as having been falsely generated by anti-Palesinian racists" is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to obfuscate and distort what she said. She was using racist propaganda as her source of information, to justify her racist views. It really is that simple, that clear.

Talk about a waste of time...

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST,Guest #6(b)
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:35 PM

I don't see anything vaguely resembiling racism in Celtic Soul's comments. I believe what you mean is that she has reported facts which you dispute as having been falsely generated by anti-Palesinian racists.

False facts abound, making this a confusing issue for anyone, regardless of bias.

You have engaged in a lot of ad hominem, and sparse refutation of the facts she related, such is this:

"Nearly *80%* of what was historcially called "Palestine" rests *within* the borders of Jordan, not Israel."

Is that a false fact? What is the truth? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Hussein Mutual Life
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:32 AM

Nice try Celtic Soul, but I am the guest CarolC was addressing who referred to you as a loonie, and I didn't post the 7 Apr 11:45 message. There are at least 3 guests posting in these threads that I am aware of. If you read the messages closely, you will see there is someone with a pro-Israeli agenda posting anonymously, in a very inflammatory way (4 Apr 3:28) who I believe is the poster who started this thread. There is also another very eloquent anonymous guest posting to the other threads on the conflict, but who has not posted to this thread in particular.

I still think you are a lunatic fringer Celtic Soul, and don't mind saying so. This is, after all, the internet. When religous loonies such as yourself start spouting the bullshit you've been spouting in this thread, you are going to get called out on it. Period.

CarolC has a personal incentive to defend Mudcat members when they are called out on their ignorance and arrogance by anonymous posters like myself. It makes her look good in the eyes of the Mudcat community. If I were a member, she wouldn't be able to get away with it, because I would have my supporters and detractors, and she would have hers. One reason why I choose to post anonymously is to avoid that kind of petty popularity crap. This way, the only thing you have to judge me by are my words--which is just the way I like it.

I don't give a shit what the Mudcat community thinks of my opinions. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to make them read my messages, or respond to them. I have no personal agenda, other than countering bullshit assertions by racist jerks when I read their remarks, and exposing them for the frauds they are--and there are alot of Mudcatters who fall in that category.

As hard as it might be for many to accept, I act no differently here than I do in 3D life. If I encountered you, Celtic Soul, in a public discussion setting, talking the way you have been talking, I would have reacted in the same way as I have here. I don't suffer fools for the sake of politeness, especially when they are spouting such poisonous, racist hate as you have done here Celtic Soul. And believe me, you having a so-called "pagan" partner (whatever that is supposed to mean) doesn't absolve you of echoing the racist hate propaganda you hear on right wing Christian radio.

I would treat you the same way in 3D life if I encountered you spouting that shit, because that is what my personal moral values require of me. People here don't want to stand up to the racists in their midst in order to "just get along" and "be nice"--well, that is their choice. But I'm certainly not going to be nice or polite to racist jerks when I encounter their nasty propaganda here, or anywhere.