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Pacifists, conchies, what penalties?
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Subject: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:26 PM This afternoon Heather and I were talking about accidents of birth, fate, monumental decisions, pure luck and other heavy topics. (well it's better than discussing 'Survivor') Ya see, by all rights I should have grown up in Bloomfield New Jersey, rather than Montreal and Toronto (My dad turned down a chance to be a big shot at his company's US head office) So we started talking about Draft boards, and personal decisions etc. but mostly the RESULTS of not following your country's bidding. Got me thinking about a few things that I really don't know the answers to. Hopefully some folks can fill me in. During (say) Vietnam, some folks went to jail, and others served their time in (military?) hospitals.....who did what? Were there other punishments? If you were part of an 'accepted' religion (Quakers, Salvation Army) did they go easier on you than if you just said "No" for strictly ideological reasons? What about Britain or Israel, or the Palestinians (or any other countries or systems for that matter). How do they deal with pacifists? I've only got one little bit of history in my family (it was NOT talked about!) concerning this issue, and it was about two of my cousins. One refused to fight in WW II (and apparently lived to a ripe old age with kids and grandkids....but with a great cloud over him) and the other enlisted, and was shot down over Germany a few months later. I found a little newspaper notice about his death when I was going through some old papers. Anyway, thanks for any and all feedback. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Amos Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:38 PM You could get deferral as a minister or employee of a religous organization, as a student, and for various other reasons. If you had no grounds for deferral but claimed CO status, they could order you to do alternative service of some kind. You could also contrive to get rejected on the basis of certain Victorian biases which informed the miolitary in those years, such as being a flaming gay. If you refused to cooperate in any way due to absolute religio-philosophical conviction you could be sent to prison; this was more often the case in WWII, when the moral lines were much starker and the Peace generation had not started swarming the barricades with daisies in their mouths, or whatever. A lot of our generation, facing military duty in Vietnam, decided they would not playt the game at all, on moral grounds, and moved to your side of the Falls, as you know. A |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: katlaughing Date: 06 Apr 02 - 01:18 AM Some never made it to the point where they had to decide. My ex was turned down for the draft due to flat feet. I think he always felt a bit guilty and melancholy about it. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Bert Date: 06 Apr 02 - 01:53 AM My Dad was medically unfit and served his time in WWII as an air raid warden and worked in London Docks where he helped build the Mulberry Harbours. They used to curse the floating crane which was a prime target for the Luftwaffe. Towards the end of the war we worked on a farm where I first heard the term Conchie. There was this "Conchie" there who was made to work on the farm. Dad explained to us that Conchie was not the man's name, despite the fact that was what everyone called him. Looking back on it, the guy must have been very brave to stick to his principles like that and put up with all the abuse. I think I'd sooner have gone to war. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 09:11 AM Until the year 1970, one could stay out of the draft if you got a college deferment--hence the rich white boy deferment. I had three friends who were able to get CO status, none of them did any special service. It was a deferment, like getting a college deferment, or a medical deferment. If you lived in a large enough city, and were lucky enough to have a fairly high draft number, in the late 60s through the end of the war, you didn't have much to worry about. So many draftees were not showing up for induction, the military fell very far behind in coming to find you, which was virtually impossible in those days if you didn't want to be found. At that time, the military made a decision to focus on sweetening the pot for those who freely enlisted to keep the cannon fodder well stocked. My recollection is that those who did jail time for refusing to report were people wanting to make a political statement, and I don't remember many of them. I did have friends who managed to argue with their draft boards to stall for time until the war ended--another common tactic. Because of the bureacracy, and the numbers of boys not showing up, appealing, etc. it bogged the system down, especially in the big cities. And then there were the guys who went to Canada. Eventually they got a pardon. Not too much suffering there, either. Those who suffered the worst were those who refused to go early on--mid 60s I'd say. They were the ones most likely to be jailed for their stand. But I don't think there were ever that many draft resisters in jail at any given time. As to Israel, right now they are jailing the refuseniks who won't go into the terrortories. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 09:24 AM American Friends Service Committee's "Youth and Militarism" website has an excellent article on Vietnam war resisters I've excerpted here: http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/html/news/may00/resist_prt.htm War Resisters and the Courts Draft Law Violators – During the entire Vietnam War, 209,517 young men were formally accused of violating draft laws. Government officials estimate that another 360,000 were never formally accused. Of the former group, 25,000 indictments were handed down; 8,750 were convicted; and just under 4,000 served jail time. Military Resisters – It is difficult to say how many military service members were prosecuted for offenses growing out of opposition to the Southeast Asia War. Most estimates consider the rates at which service members went AWOL (absent without leave) or deserted – commonly referred to as "absence offenses." AWOL and desertion rates hit an all-time high during the Vietnam War, 1971 and 1972 being the peak years. The Pentagon documents 1,500,000 instances of AWOL and desertion during the war. Official estimates of the actual number of service members who went AWOL or deserted run between 500,000 (Pentagon) and 550,000 (officials in the Ford Administration). It is important to remember that not all service members who received bad discharges for offenses related to the war were absentees. Adding other types of anti-war activities for which service members were prosecuted significantly increases these figures. Many went to jail and/or received bad discharges.* Resisters in Exile Estimates of the number of draft and military resisters who went into exile during the Vietnam Era vary widely. The best estimate is about 100,000, at least 90% of whom went to Canada. How many are still living abroad is unknown. The New York Times estimates that 25,000 draft resisters still live in Canada, an estimate which seems high by most accounts. (This figure does not include active duty service members who went into exile.) There are no reliable estimates: it is most likely still in the thousands. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Apr 02 - 09:54 AM Guest, I think your statistics are probably pretty accurate. I fell into the late sixties group of resisters and was among the 4000 who did jail time. I've told that story several times before on the 'Cat and I won't go through it again except to say that the government emphasis DID indeed change and they became less and less focused on the problem as you say. We had become a distinct pain in the ass and in that way I hope we shortened the war. As you stated, prosecutions slowed down, but also, sentences became shorter and shorter and paroles were granted quite early simply because we were creating an overcrowding problem. I was originally supposed to serve 18 months minimum of a three to five, but only served 6 months and a few days. I really don't know that this had any effect on shortening the war, but for many of us, the statement was the important thing at the time and in that way I will never feel regret for what I did and indeed tend to believe that the government did take notice and were forced into other things, one of which was possibly ending the conflict in Viet Nam and in the streets here as well. Important to note, we were not all pacifists by any means. I think the pacifists often did the CO or Canada thing. My "beef" with the government was based on the grounds that we were being lied to on a regular basis. That part of it I have told many times here as well. I mean I was the All-American boy and never dreamed that I wouldn't go fight for my country, but somewhere along the line I began to see that the fight for my "country" was here and not in Southeast Asia. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM Despite popular myth and conventional wisdom, one has never needed to be a pacifist to receive a CO deferment. Most people don't understand the difference between a pacifist and a peace activist--the current uproar over American Jew Adam Shapiro is a good example of that common misunderstanding.
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:42 AM I also found this information (this post and the following one), which might be of interest and relevance to folks in this thread. It seems to be a term paper posted on the web from someone at UPenn. http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~pws/60s/numbers.html Draft Resistance in the Vietnam Era Number of Draft Resisters The Vietnam War era produced unprecedented numbers of war resisters. If we examine the ratio of objector exemptions to actual inductions (per 100 inductions), we see very low numbers: World War I was 0.14 and World War II was 0.15. However, in the Vietnam years, these numbers went up, reaching 25 in 1970, and over 130 in 1972. This means that toward the end of the Vietnam War, conscientious objector (CO) exemptions reached previously unthinkable proportions. In 1972, more young men were exempted from the draft than were inducted into the armed services. The following chart illustrates the growth of legal objections: Ratio of Objector Exemptions to Actual Inductions Year/War (per 100 Inductions) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ World War I 0.14 World War II 0.15 1966 6.10 1967 8.11 1968 8.50 1969 13.45 1970 25.55 1971 42.62 1972 130.72 1973 73.30 Another indication of the rapid increase of CO during the Vietnam war was the fact that, in 1966, whereas about 200 CO's were completing their two-year civilian service each month, twice that number were embarking on it. In addition to the many men who worked with the government to obtain the legal conscientious objector exemption, there were thousands of men who resisted the draft. Such refusal to cooperate with the Selective Service System was illegal, and it led to the indictment of over 20,000 men for draft law violations. The human tidal wave of all these resisters and objectors, each one protesting the Vietnam war, was much larger than any anti-war movement in the United States for the other wars of the 20th century.
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:43 AM Draft Resistance in the Vietnam Era Some Different Reasons Men Resisted In the first half of the 20th century, anti-war activists were concerned primarily with the abolition of war. It was very hard to be a war resister in the early part of this century. Most of society mocked and ridiculed anyone who didn't want to go off and fight. The courts were very harsh on men convicted of draft evasion, and often sentenced them to very long (sometimes "life") prison sentences. While the reasons for being "anti-war" were mostly religious during the First and Second World Wars, in the 1960's, the reasons given by young men who were resisting the draft included not only religious beliefs but ethical considerations as well. Consider the example of two New York City men: Paul Carling, 20 years old, a practicing Roman Catholic; and Ben Koenig, 24 years old, a nonpracticing Jew. Both applied for CO, but were turned down, and then appealed. Paul's reason was: "I believe in a personal God and Father of man and His Son Jesus Christ who by becoming man made brothers of all men." Ben's reason was: "My belief is wholly my own," he informed his board. "It is my credo and my religion. I will not kill." In previous wars, most of the resistance was made up of men who were opposed to war for religious reasons. However, in the Vietnam war, the number of men who resisted on moral grounds exceeded the number of men with religious objections. Robert Smith, who (in 1994) works for the Brandwine Peace Community, was a draft resister in the late 60's. He turned 18 in 1968, and registered as required by law. When his draft card came a few weeks later, he returned it to the Selective Service. This illegal act might have caused him to be arrested, but before he could be indicted for non-cooperation, the lottery was instituted, and his number was high, so he was not called for service. According to Mr. Smith, for most resisters, the Vietnam war did seem different from past wars. "The U.S. was the aggressor." Mr. Smith also commented that the Vietnam war utterly failed the "Just War Theory" as set out by St. Augustine. There are ten points, all of which must be met if a war is to be considered "just." The conditions are variously stated, but could be summarized as:
So, for many young men, the war in Vietnam was morally bankrupt, and totally indefensible. To them, the U.S. was the "bully," and it became a moral or religious necessity that they confront the military war machine. Whereas in past US wars, the main reason for not joining the army was "to end war," the Vietnam era saw many diverse reasons for avoiding or even actively resisting the Selective Service. In the first section, we saw how the number of resisters to the Vietnam war was huge when compared with prior U.S. wars. Next, we took a look at the types of draft avoidance that were popular in the 60's. In this final section we examined some of the reasons for draft resistance. Each of the three sections began with a look back at the first half of the century to see how these issues played out during the First and Second World Wars. The sections each ended with a look how the Vietnam era compared to WW I and WW II.
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 10:46 AM Oh well, sorry for the html screw up from the cut & past above. But it should be possible to see how the numbers of COs kept going up and up. And that the number of resisters to the war truly was historic. Resistance by draftees and by public political action really did end the war. And the hawks have never been the same since, either. They are much more vicious now than they have ever been, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Apr 02 - 12:12 PM Thanks. Fascinating stuff. It was mentioned (I'm paraphrasing) that you (Americans) could 'negotiate' with a draft board. Could that actually happen? Did that mean that local offices could could 'bend the numbers' if a convincing argument was put forth? What about actual execution (of the shooting kind)? Did anyone (say, during WW2) pay the supreme penalty for refusing to fight? Anyone know about France or Spain or Italy? One guy from New York that I met in the sixties, told me that he literally ATE (ice cream) his way out of having to go to Vietnam....put on so much weight that he couldn't pass the physical. Now, I wonder if that actually could have been true or not. Assuming that prison authorities might (in general) be more mainstream than the draft-resisters, did they try to make things really tough on someone who was incarcerated for that? (like putting the person in a cell with hardened criminals) Cheers and thanks Rick |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: GUEST Date: 06 Apr 02 - 03:35 PM I never heard of anyone being able to negotiate with a draft board. If you have gotten that impression from anything I've posted, then either I have failed to communicate clearly, or you have misunderstod what I was saying. People were able to manipulate the process and/or drag out the process in a number of ways, but they were never able to negotiate. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: DougR Date: 06 Apr 02 - 05:29 PM Rick: I think there was a Pvt. Slovak (sp?) executed for cowardice during WW II. As I recall, there was a movie made about it. I know of no othrs though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Apr 02 - 07:58 PM Let's back up a bit here........Draft boards in general lived by a set of government regulations that it was there job to administer. There wasn't a lot of flex in the laws concerning the draft. It was there job to hear cases where CO status had been denied and make a decision which was within their province to do. CO status met certain guidelines however and virtually all CO's got their deferrment on the basis of religious principles. The fly in the ointment for some though was that a few had no religious principles and applied using a small loophole known as "ethics as religion." I have no idea how many did this or to what extent it worked but I can verify at least two. The other situation was that if you came from a small place in a tiny county with few people as a friend of mine did, bucking the draft and the draft board was almost a comic opera! Quite literally in my friend's case, they didn't know what to do with him or his draft card which he'd sent back(more on that later). The folks on the draft board all knew him or his family and tried to negotiate with HIM to keep them from having to do what they didn't know how to do! He was a long time in finally being arrested and like some toward the end of the 60's, did no time at all. He certainly fouled their system up because they had no idea what to do at any level and failed to pass it on in a timely manner anyway. The real resisters often cooperated with the draft board because how else could we make the statement we were trying to make? The thing that mattered was to not step forward and not take the oath. This forced them into taking the legal steps and eventually jailing you. To the degree you could be noticed, this was the way to do it. Burning your draft card was sillier than hell if you were really resisting the war because who knew??? If you cut it in half and burnt the edges and then sent it back with a letter explaining that you had decided "not to play," they had to do something. Even after that though, my draft board continued to send me legal notices that I was now 1-A and soon sent me a notice for my physical. In general, many draft boards preferred to look at some things as mistakes or tried not to take notice until they were forced to do so. The physical wasn't the place to resist either and many resisters took physicals. As to Rick's question regarding ice cream and weight.....yes, that happened. But simple problems like weight forced you to keep coming in for weight checks on a regular basis which, if you were trying to just avoid the draft was probably okay by them. Other problems that you could create temporarily, like high blood pressure, simply was a bad idea because they kept you at the place for an additional 3-5 days and monitored your BP. I took a physical at the AFEES station in Louisville and passed, but some of the yahoos that were there on both sides were really amazing. There was a guy who had ballooned up in weight, at least two who had high BP, and one asshole showed up in a dress! I don't know about the other ones, but the guy in the dress passed! There was also a guy in my group that had spent megabucks(or his family had) on surgeries to correct a problem with his eyes and he had done it because he wanted in the service! He had several letters from doctors with him, but when it was over, he still failed the physical because of his eyes. He would gladly have traded with the dude in the dress. Strange times................. I guess the CO's as well as those who went to Canada and the resisters, all came in several sub-categories. The real CO's who actually believed in their religious principles were one group but also there were certainly those who "got religion" and a lot of letters and documentation from their pastors, priest, and rabbis to avoid service for whatever their reason was. Some went to Canada out of disgust/hatred/whatever for the situation while I think others went just to avoid the service. In the resister group there were those who were actively trying to foul the system and make a statement as well as those who felt that simply by not participating it was enough, regardless of whether they were actively prosecuted or not. As to prison Rick..........I think it might have made a difference where they sent you. When I arrived at Petersburg there was already a large population of resisters there and though I heard about earlier abuses, I never really saw anything myself during that time. We were as a group looked down on by some of the general population there, while others seemed to figure we were just screwed up kids. There were also a few who would go out of their way to befriend you or at least help you to learn what you could and couldn't do...not because they were after something, but simply because they didn't like the war either and figured we were actually doing a good thing by being there. This was in early '69 and the goverment was already starting to bow to the pressure of too damn many kids in jail.....it was just too expensive and a no-win situation for them I think. as I said, I served only 6 months but when I got there the average was 18. within the first three months I was there the resistor population began to drop at an astounding rate and very few new people came in. I think that about a year after I was released there were only a few left and they had been charged with additional, often violent crimes. One of the guys was there on a 15 year sentence for participation with a Weather Underground bombing and the draft resistance had been just tagged on. I'm tired of typing and tired of rehashing those times. It's important that we don't forget but equally important that we can all see what we did then whether it was serving in VietNam or serving time as choices made by American kids who were forced to see the world way too soon. Many who went came back and in retrospect wished they hadn't, but they should be and hopefully are proud of what they did. For those of us who came to a different realization, I hope that all of them are proud of the decisions they made at that time. I have no regrets, no shame......I would do it again. But every war, every situation has to be judged on it's own merit. Korea was not WWII and VietNam was not WWII.....but WWII wasn't the same as WWI either. In every case though, the decisions always come down to young men, often too young to have to make such decisions. I'm all for a worldwide restriction on having anyone serve in any war until they are at least, oh, say 35 or so........... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Apr 02 - 08:00 PM Sorry about the typos and the misused there/their....I gotta' pruufreed mor. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: InOBU Date: 06 Apr 02 - 08:45 PM Hi Sisters and Brothers... excuse the tread creep, but it is kinda close, as this thread is attracting the Pasifist community. New Jersey Quaker (and almost neighbor of Rick Feilding but for a historical glitch) Sue Thomas is to attend a hearing in Italy with other members of the theater group of which she is a member - here is a quote from her letter, tommorow I will post the whole thing in a separate post... Larry "On Tuesday, April 9th, the Publix Theatre will have a hearing in the Genoa Courts. It will be a closed hearing, no defendants, press or public will be present; just lawyers. This is how Italian trials usually are. The Italian Supreme Court has reviewed the original decision of the Genoa Tribunal from August 14th that set us all free, and rejected it. The Supreme Court has decided that there needs to be some stronger motivation for our release than just the lack of clear evidence against the Publix Theatre. On Tuesday, the Genoa courts will review the evidence again, and decide whether to issue another order for pre-trial incarceration. This decision only directly affects the 19 who were freed in the main tribunal. The Publix Theatre was freed in three groups: a group of 19 (who are having their release reviewed on Tuesday), me (because I had a separate lawyer), and the five men who were released the day after the women were (because they, too, had a separate lawyer.) The prosecutor appealed the release order for all of the Publixtheatre defendants, but for technical reasons only the main group of 19 is under review for the moment. This is a dangerous sign for all of us, because the PublixTheatre case is the only one that has made it this far in the courts, suggesting that they wish to bring us to trial, and that, as the sole object of the prosecutor's energies, PublixTheatre may find itself the "fall guy," taking the blame for all of the tragedies of Genoa. This is especially hard to deal with as some of the police who were giving the orders during the terrible police violence of Genoa have actually been promoted. " |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Apr 02 - 11:47 AM Thanks for the info folks. Catspaw, I know you've talked about this extensively in the past on MC...but my memory is failing as fast as my ability to break the 4 minute mile (besides I KNOW you a lot better now, so your tale has added aspects)....so I appreciate the 're-hashing'. It's interesting to me how I MIGHT have reacted to the situation, had I grown up as a Yank in New Jersey. I might not have discovered Pete Seeger, or gotten political. I DID like guns when I was a kid (well Daisy air-rifles anyway) and who knows, might have enlisted. If I HAD become political, perhaps I'd have taken Catspaw's route (but I doubt it...too chicken), or perhaps my Dad (who was well-connected with medical people) could have gotten me some fake 'condition'. But there would have been another option....PERHAPS.... Since I was a pretty good musician from about age 18, could I have used that to avoid shooting? (and being shot at) My guess is that "Folk" music wouldn't have carried much weight....but how 'bout "Country" music? I've read of many soldiers who spent their whole tour as 'entertainment people'. Could you actually ASK for that kind of service? Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Jeri Date: 07 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM Rick, I believe the medical condition was determined/confirmed by the induction physical. You could have had a doctor GIVE you a medical condition, but that sounds pretty drastic, and I don't know that you would have been able to find a doctor willing to do it. As to musicians in the military - being sent to a band unit doesn't have much to do with background, unless you play a type of music the military wants and there's room for you. I don't know if there was a country band at that time. There is (at least in the Air Force) now, as well as a bluegrass band, a rock band, a jazz band, a big band band. I knew one guy who played concert harp. I suspect a lot of these came post-Viet Nam. In any case, they'd find out you could play an instrument and gave you the music they wanted you to play. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Apr 02 - 08:26 PM So I guess telling your draft board that you'd be HAPPY to serve...as long as it was in a bluegrass band, simply wouldn't cut it! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Apr 02 - 08:40 PM Jeri and others would know a lot more, but I can give you some anecdotal things from the period that happened to 3 friends of mine. Bill Isenhart is a music educator and we've been friends since our mid 20's. Bill was a graduate of Capital University, an outstanding music school, and was drafted in 1970. He had been the top clarinetist at Cap and was taken into the Navy School of Music (known as the "Pool of Mucus"). He spent his service time there and in a military band in DC, stoned most of the time back then! He also appeared in a recruiting ad quite by accident. They asked for someone to bring their instrument and a dress uniform and report somewhere......and you got a 7day pass or something. Bill did it and his face and clarinet appeared with a bunch of other service jobs on a recruiting ad in Reader's Digest. My high school friend Phil had just received his license in 1969 as a commercial jet mechanic as well as one of his airframe certificates. The Army made him a great offer, but he figured the Air Force had the most planes so he went with the Air Force.............and wound up loading bombs in Thailand. Never worked on any other part of the aircraft!!! The oddest one was Alan. He was an only child, divorced Mom, and they both lived with his grandmother. He came out pretty cool and we became very close friends after we met in our 30's. His Mom was a pro secretary and head of the State Secretarial Association in Tennessee for many years and from an early age, Alan could type quite well. By the time he was in college, very few real secretaries typed as fast as he did. He got drafted and figured he was definitely heading for VietNam when his typing skill was noticed by accident....One thing led to another and he never went.....Spent his service time as an office clerk! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: DougR Date: 07 Apr 02 - 10:03 PM There was a branch of the service called Special Services when I was in the Army. I think those assigned to SS were primarily administrators though, working primarily with USO groups who came from the entertainment world to entertain the troops. They also were responsible for providing programs at Service Clubs on the bases. I was Special Services NCO for my Artillery Battery, but the SS responsibilities consisted, primarily, of holding current event orientations for the Battery each week. Since we are talking Civil War here, Rick, I'm not sure Blue Grass was around yet. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: SINSULL Date: 07 Apr 02 - 10:20 PM My brothers were exempt from the draft because they belonged to the Sheet Metal Workers Union. Their work was considered critical to the war effort. At that time most unions were closed to blacks and Hispanics. Most blacks and Hispanics did not attend colleges - not even public colleges. Women were exempt. Strange times. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: toadfrog Date: 07 Apr 02 - 10:57 PM One could be exempted for religious reasons, which usually involved alternative service. Or exempted from serving in a combat arm. There was a case called United States v. Seeger in which Pete Seeger was the lead defendant, holding that exemptions were also available because of secular beliefs. A friend of mine was a co-defendant in that matter, an anarchist and pacifist named Forrest Britt Peter. You could get deferred on the ground you were against war. You could not get deferred on the ground you were against the Vietnam War. A former friend of mine also managed to draw a 5-year sentence, of which he actually served two. As he described it the Judge, a liberal, came to his cell and begged him to accept alternative service or argue for deferment on the ground he was against all wars. He told the Judge that if he had any courage or principles, he would release him. That didn't work. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Apr 02 - 11:29 PM Rick, I'd a figured you for another Adrian Cronouer(sp) IF you'd been a Yank in Joisey...Gooooood mornin' Viet Nam! Spawdarlin'...I don't recall your having ever spoken that much about the actual incarceration and I, too, appreciate the re-hashing. I think there is a hell of a chapter or two, here, from you, Big Mick and some others, which every high school history class would do well to read. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:55 AM Not re: VietNam, but my dad and his brother were COs during WWII. They were given three choices: Jail, orderly in an insane asylum, or guineapig for medical experiments. Dad chose to be a guineapig, Uncle Greg chose jail. No idea how long either of them did what they did. |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Apr 02 - 01:06 PM Guinea pig for medical experiments??!! Jeesus, what was THAT all about Mrzz? Rick |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Mark Ross Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:18 PM I believe that that case about COship was Dan Seeger,I don't know what relation , if any he was to Pete. I got out on a 4F due to various machinations on my part at the physical((I'm not sure which one worked). A friend of mine went in with his butt smeared with Peanut Butter, and every once in a while would stick his hand down the back of his shorts...well, you can imagine. They threw him out of the induction center. Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Apr 02 - 05:07 PM So how long did you keep this guy as a "friend?" Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Pacifists, conchies, what penalties? From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Apr 02 - 09:09 AM Well, Rick, it was apparently C. Everett Koop's baby... they gave him hepatitis to see if they could cure it (they couldn't; he ended up alcohol-intolerant, but could have a drink before dinner OR wine with, just not both), and frostbite to see if they could cure that (they couldn't; he had scars the size of quarters on his arm and leg), and I don't know of anything else, those are the 2 things that left permanent marks, so they got talked about. What upset Uncle Greg was that when he chose jail, Grandfather wouldn't bail him out, saying he should stand by his principles. I liked Grandfather, what a great old Quake he was. |
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