Singing from books: Why?

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:20 PM

We're not talking about traditions here--we're discussing the use of lyric sheets and song-books...

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:17 PM

Carol, I think Harry was saying that until the 'rediscovery' of our own Enlish folksong, all there was for people here to be exposed to was folk music from elsewhere

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:08 PM

I need to make a correction to my previous post...

I didn't mean to suggest that other folk traditions are not the result of interpretation and 'folk memory'. But I am saying that your traditions are not the default tradition. And it's not an automatic given that anyone comes from just one tradition anyway, and that it's necessarily more legitimate to limit oneself to just the traditions represented by one's ancestry.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:56 PM

Well, I have to admit that these kinds of attitudes certainly baffle me.

I don't sing. Ever. I'm not sure exactly why. And the interesting thing is that singers are constantly bugging me to sing. And I say, "no, I don't sing". And they don't seem to be able to accept this. And yet, if I did sing, I would have to read the lyrics from books or sheet music, because I have cognitive problems that make it almost impossible for me to remember lyrics (I have CRS - Can't Remember Songs). Maybe it's a good thing I keep saying no. I think it would be humiliating if I finally consented, then proceeded to sing from a book, and was treated unkindly because of it.

Maybe song snobbery is part of the reason I don't sing.

And for Harryoldham and others who sing in pubs in England, maybe your songs and tunes have evolved through interpretation and 'folk memory', but there is a wide world of folk music out there. Not just your own traditions. Where I live, there are quite a few different traditions represented. And I can't imagine wanting to limit myself to just those traditions anyway. How insular.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Abuwood
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:44 PM

I would rather hear someone sing an entertaining song from a book than suffer someone dragging through 26 verses off by heart of a dirge where I lost the plot in verse 3!

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:21 PM

"Did the popularity of the folk club begin to fizzle out with the dawning of the more insular singaround?" Other way round, I'd say. When the numbers go down for other reasons and it's down to a faithful few, it tends to turn into a singaround. And the pub gets rid of the function room, but is all right about allowing singing in the bar.

Performance poets typically use the book as a prop, and there are some singers who do that as well. As with Bob Copper. (Or Henry Kipper.) And that's maybe the answer - if you use a songbook, make use of it for more than just the words, it's potentially a way of punctuating and pointing a song.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:25 PM

Good point, Dave...though I. sometimes think poets do this for effect...it fits with the romantic image of the flicked back hair and gesticulating free hand.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 09:14 AM

Good thread indeed! I am lucky enough not to be embarrased by my small repetoire (Oh, err, Missus) and so can easlily remember 20 or so songs. I don't really know what it would be like to try to remember hundreds as I will never be in the situation where I would need them - Ie of professional performer status.

I don't mind people singing from books though as long as they know the songs anyway and just need a little reminder. I do find it a little annoying when someone does not have a clue what they are going to sing, how they are going to sing it and appears not to have even attempted to learn the words in any way. I find it somehow discourteous to the other people in the club/singaround or whatever.

One strange thing I have noticed. There are they people who dislike singers using lyric sheets and yet those same people seem to think it is OK for a poet to use a book. Why is that? Why does it seem unprofessional for musicians and singers to use printed music or lyrics whereas it looks OK, learned even, for a poet to recite directly from the written word?

I had never really thought about it before yet, certainly in my experience, this seems to be the case. Just another spanner in the works...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 08:47 AM

Harry said a couple of posts ago "Apart from hymns where the singers are making a statement of personal faith doesn't a folk song in first person sound a tad silly when sung by twenty people?"

Well maybe, but equally I don't do that much walking on May mornings, not have I ever hid up a chimney (Butter an Cheese an' all), nor worked on a whaling ship or even on a farm. The literal accuracy of the song, in that sense, is not too important. On the other hand - without wishing to overstate my case or upset the more religious types - I think a lot of folks songs, old and new, do have an affirmation of 'faith' in them. How about 'This Land is My land?' for example?

"Did the popularity of the folk club begin to fizzle out with the dawning of the more insular singaround?" - I can't say. I certainly stopped going at that time, but that was to do with getting married, moving from University to 'working', a little later bringing the kids up and so on. Had I stayed in the same town, I would have found the sing-around about the only way of keeping in touch for a few years at least. As it was, moving some 400 miles, I lost even that until a few years back.

{Of course, the sing-around is probably more traditional anyway! And without books because 120 years back my grandmother wasn't educated enough to sign her name but by all accounts she could sing like a good 'un)

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 08:26 AM

Interesting points raised in the last message...

A large input in the UK folk revival in the late 50's and early 60's came from people who wanted to entertain.

The skiffle boom saw the formation of many groups of youbg people who wanted to play and sing and found this to be possible and easily accessible via a guitar, three chords, a home-made bass and washboard...many of these went on to take part in the beat boom while others found there was life away from their mainly American folk song repertoire{ and no disrespect here) and began to discover our own native folk song

Did the popularity of the folk club begin to fizzle out with the dawning of the more insular singaround?

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:57 AM

The point that stands out for me in this thread is that of entertainment.
I am just at the start of a self-imposed month long singing ban (trying to rid myself of bad habits & entrench some better ones). I am looking forward to going along to the local open mic session as audience for a while - and I expect to learn a lot.
Last time I didn't sing I was amazed at what a difference the change in perspective made to the evening. I found that, as a participant, I would give a lot of leeway to the other performers - but as audience I was far more demanding.
There are a lot of people getting up and singing, but who are not entertaining at all to the disinterested listener. And these sessions tend to be in pubs, where we have to co-exist with a lot of disinterested drinkers. There are some performers who are stunning technically, but who do not entertain. There are others who are not so good musically or vocally, but who are genuinely engaging and entertaining performers. There are some who are neither good nor entertaining - and its only when you are part of the audience that you realise what an imposition that can be. I don't mean to be harsh - but I am talking about a particular session where the presence of mics & speakers etc implies a certain expectation in the audience - and when this is not fulfilled it leaves me personally feeling a bit embarrassed at the bunch of precious fools we must appear to the pub's non-folkie regulars.
Fortunately there are some people around who are excellent and entertaining (not me yet - but I'm working on it) - but several mentions above of the starving out of these types is sending cold shivers down my spine.
This entertainment issue is something I need to think about and really work on if I want to be entertaining myself - but it is very hard to accurately evaluate entertainment when you are part of it!

That all rambled on a bit more than I intended - but I feel better now its off my chest......

I think my post has probably crept right away from the point of the thread - but sometimes I get so tangled up between when all inclusive tolerance is good, and when its just fooling itself.

Kris (aka confused & stressed of UK)

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:08 AM

You make an excellent point Julie..and even if you only learn one song a month it's well worth the effort...

Good luck and all the best..

Harry.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:03 AM

"If you want a song to be given (the full choir) treatment, should it have to be presented to as a solo over and over, until the group finally learns it by 'osmosis' and can finally start to sing along?" (Genie)

When it come down to it, that is more or less what I do believe, and I think most people in the places I know in the folk world probably see it that way too. If I hear a song that is new to me, I want to listen to it. If I know and like a song, I can find myself wanting to sing along, and maybe put in a harmony and so forth - if I'm sure that's what the singer wants to happen.

But I wouldn't dream of trying to lay down the law on these kind of things, even if I could. If I found myself in a session where there was some rule that noone could use written or printed words, I wouldn't stay. Or if there was some conventioin that people should be embarassed if they feel happuier with the words in front of them.

"Songs that have 6ths, 9ths, major 7ths, augmented or diminished chords, or key changes." Maybe this is a quibble, but I don't see songs as having chords. It's the arrangements and accompaniments (including some types of vocal accompaniments) that have chords. That's fine - but the song comes first, and there are virtually infinite combinations of harmonies for any melody. One of the great things with a good crowd of folkies is that they can come up with harmonies no one would think possible that work.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: JulieF
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:57 AM

I admit that at the moment I have a tendancy to sing from words. This is largely because I have such a small group of songs that I have any chance of knowing by heart. I find that I go out twice a month and I have every intention of learning the songs. I know that I sing better if I know the words by heart - maybe with the paper held in my hand just in case I panic, as I can then concentrate on when to breathe. However, more often that not family life has interfered and I have not has the practice time that I wished. My options are: I go out and sing the two songs I know by heart, I sing the ones that I'm working on but don't know by heart or I don't sing. Admitedly my trips out are to places where I feel I am completely welcome as an absolute beginner and when I work up to going somewhere else - I will use a song that I know by heart.

I know that I need to make more time to practice and I'm working on it but I certainly wouldn't have had the courage to sing in public without the words to start with

Julie

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: GUEST,Chipper
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:21 AM

Practicing in public is OK if everyone is clear that's what you're doing. But you have to move on eventually don't you? Chipper

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 06:04 AM

Apart from hymns where the singers are making a statement of personal faith doesn't a folk song in first person sound a tad silly when sung by twenty people?

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:15 AM

Kendall and Capt. Swing, "Classical vs. folk" may be like "apples vs. oranges," but not all songs sung at jams and sing-around have just three or four chords with a common progression. [E.g., we often play and sing "The Rainbow Connection" in a jam/sing-around I attend, and many folkies find its chord progression not to be a play-by-ear pattern]. Songs that have 6ths, 9ths, major 7ths, augmented or diminished chords, or key changes, e.g., may not be Beethoven, but they're not your average folk or country-western ballad, either. Doesn't mean "folkies" don't do 'em, though.

Nice picture, Kat! [Where was Ditzie in that photo?]

McGrath, You say "You can get all the ... harmonies you like in a chorus, and you don't need the word[s] ...by the time you've heard it a few times." Many beautiful songs--folk or otherwise--do not have "choruses." Many have no repeated lines except perhaps for one "hook," or the words to the chorus modulate a bit with each 'repetition'. Should a song have to have a chorus in order to get the 'full-choir treatment'? Or, if you want a song to be given that treatment, should it have to be presented to as a solo over and over, until the group finally learns it by 'osmosis' and can finally start to sing along?
I often hand out song sheets when I present a new song in a session, not because I don't know it, but because I want others to be able to sing with me right there and then [and keep the lyric sheet if they like.]

Russ, beautiful summary! [I just deleted several points I started to make/reiterate, because you summed it up so well!
Point of clarification, though: You said "I would not be silly enough to deny that singing from books is NOT in any way a trade off. " Too many "nots" and I get confused. You're agreeing that "singing from books IS NOT a trade-off." Right?

Rich-joy, thanks for the Jim Lloyd quote! Wow! He really hit the nail on the head! While the appreciation of excellence has its place, so, too does the communal musical experience, as McGrath mentioned, even when it ain't poifect. As Bill Staines wrote, "All God's Critters Got A Place In the Choir..."

And Chipper, what's so horrible about "practicin" in public? Isn't that what pickin' an' grinnin' on the front porch is about?

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:07 AM

Two points to add to this excellent discussion: Harry Oldham, if I understand him rightly, thinks it's a bit odd to follow a railway song with a railway song. This is one of the finest times in our club - where singer A sings a fishing song from the coast; singer B has fished that general area, adds a song about a place near there; singer C has sailed in the area and contributes a funny shipwreck song - - etc. I realize that you've got to be in a special place with singers and songs located in that place. And no, I'm not in Newfoundland, but in BC. We once sang a whole set on salmon fishing, and the second set on halibut, herring, and whale from the same coast. I know this is much more difficult in the UK, and that the songs one likes, for example, Tommy Armstrong's Durham mining songs, cannot possibly speak to a southern England audience. But we're fortunate here to have a lot of logging, mining and fishing songs, and though the songs themselves are not VERY well known, the audience oftentimes has personal knowledge/experience or contact, through a partner, a family member or friend with the trade in question. When you get a song circle with this kind of richness, the songs naturally call to one another, and what starts as a performance becomes a conversation. Don't take me wrong when I say this for me is the best kind of love-making, too. That's point one, and one I struggled wiith as a young singer in southern England, with no natural repertoire to sing from.

Point two: the question we have to ask re the ring-binders and the books is: Is this paper necessary? Oftentimes it is, and, as the I Ching says, "No blame". But oftentimes it gets in the way. If we ask ourselves (and encourage others to ask themselves, too) the question, and adapt our own behaviour accordingly, then we'll solve the problem. Nu?

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Song Dog
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:03 AM

The question; Singing from books: Why? The answer; Because, It's singing.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: GUEST,Chipper
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 03:37 AM

Smacks too much of practicing in public to me. Which is OK in a "safe" environment like a workshop or session designed for that purpose. But if you can never break the habit of relying on the book will you ever move into more dangerous waters with any confidence and/or credibility? Making that transition can be very rewarding. What really puzzles me is bands who do paid bookings with the books (no pun intended)in front of them on music stands.

Chipper

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 02:58 AM

Good thread!!
Like others, I certainly can't recall songbooks being used by performers in Folk Clubs run during the 70's and I've tended to be (just a bit) deprecating about those who use them - UNTIL, that is, the old "MentalPause" kicked in, at around age 48 - I am now FAR more tolerant!!!!!!
I also find however, that I have trouble even READING the words, coz with the venue lights down low (for "ambience"), even my glasses can't cope!!!

I agree with those who've said that they would rather hear a good singer who has to use notes, rather than not hear them at all. I personally know of a NUMBER of good-to-EXCELLENT singers who "just don't" anymore, because it's too hard to remember the words and they feel they can't do a good performance because of this stress. These singers have fabulous voices and personalities and REPERTOIRES, that are just being LOST, because of this feeling of "no longer being good enough". It's TRAGIC!!!
(But, I DO understand their feelings, only too well!!!)

I also agree about the need for modern audiences to be entertained whilst being educated in Folk - the days are long gone when an audience will politely sit though excrutiating performances of long, tedious, boring, badly sung folksongs JUST because they are Folksongs!!
However, I also like the following quote from Jim Lloyd when he became the new Director of the EFD&SS around 1985 :

FolkRoots Interviewer : " ... A lot of what you're saying has to do with folk as an artform, as an academic interest or as an educational tool. What about it as something that people do for entertainment?"

JL : "Well, it has to be fun. Seriously! There's this wonderful quote from one of Vaughan Williams' lectures, around 1904, when he said something like : "The reason these songs have survived is because people want them to." If people don't WANT to do it, it will stop, and bloody right too. You've got to provide something people WANT to do, not OUGHT to do."
he went on to say :
"There's the problem that we've grown into this idea of "excellence". When I was young, everybody had a party piece. That's stopped now. The level of performance has got so high, we can listen to the best in the world, you feel inadequate. The whole Arts structure is to have academies where you take people who are good and make them excellent, then everyone else who's mediocre sits around and watches them. With Folk, we're fighting against that.
The basis of Folk is that it's communal, everyone can do it, and we have to get back to that. That's not to say you SHOULDN'T master the Art, as many old singers DID - too many people think you can just stand up a bit drunk and do it. There's more to it than THAT!!"

Still holds true, don'tcha think??
Cheers! Rich-Joy

sorry for all of the capitals, I haven't learnt HTML formatting yet ....

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 01:02 AM

Kendall, the point was made that singing from a book makes the people unable to be in synch with one another. I gave the symphony example to show how that is not necessarily the case. Don't draw more from my example than it can be made to demonstrate.

Guest Russ really hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 11:56 PM

Really enjoying this thread.

Noticed a couple of tendencies in his discussion.

Criticisms of THOSE WHO SING FROM BOOKS (TWSFB) seem to fall into a few different (but not mutually exclusive) categories.

1. Some are a priori and based upon an abstract theory about "What Singing Ought To Be." The logical implications of the theory clearly cast TWSFB into the outer darkness. Unfortunately, like some theories, they don't seem to have any basis in the concrete realities of real singing by real human beings. (However, these can be a lot of fun to read and suss out.)

2. Some much less theoretical and hypothetical and are grounded in the unpleasant experiences the critic has had in dealing with a limited sample of TWSFB.

2. Some presuppose that SIZE COUNTS, at least as far as memory is concerned.

3. Many are based upon unflattering stereotypes and assumptions about TWSFB which appear to be generalizations based upon the aforementioned unpleasant experiences with TWSFB.
e.g.,
- If you sing from a book, you can only sing from a book.
- If you sing from a book, then whenever you sing it will sound as if you are singing the song for the first time in public after inadequate preparation
- If you sing from a book you cannot devote sufficient attention to the song itself to be able to sing it convincingly.
- If you sing from you clearly not care sufficiently about the song.
Etc.

I would not be silly enough to deny that singing from books is NOT in any way a trade off.

BUT

In defense of my being one of TWSFB,
what else can I say but,
I've seen it done by veritable deities in the pantheon of traditional singers (e.g., Addie Graham, Granny Riddle)
I don't need no stinkin theories.
It works for me.
None of the stereotypes apply to ME.
The people I sing with don't seem to mind. (I assume that those who mind avoid me. Not a bad thing.)
I have not experienced hair loss, headaches, nausea, psoriasis, tintinitus, etc., etc. as a result of the practice.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:26 PM

LOL, oh, okay...I see your point. Sorry I didn't make it more clear.:-)

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:24 PM

Singing from the one book, that's different. That's got communication built into it. Like eating at the same table instead of off in different corners of the house.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:19 PM

Sometimes it was with a book, as at Christmastime, when we wanted to do all of the verses, and my brother accompanied us on the piano, as in this picture (click on Family Sing); other times no books were used. When we went camping and dad played the banjo, guitar, fiddle and my sisters their baritone ukes, we never used books, but we also knew all of the songs. When my oldest sister was teaching my sisters and I how to play chords on their ukes, she shared her ringbinder book with us, in which she'd handwritten the lyrics and chords, so that we could use them for learning and for singing with others, sometimes, too.

Mom and dad played for dances without books, but, again, they had a pretty good repertoire which they had down pat. At otehr tiems, mom used the books to play some of her other favourites or one she didn't have down quite yet. So, I guess I grew up with both ways, thinking nothing of it. Of course, I had four siblings and parents to sing with and no song circles to go to.

kat

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 07:56 PM

A whole bunch of people sitting around singing out of the same book? I've never come across that (apart from hymn books). We used to do it at school when I was a kid of course, and it killed the songs. I was rooting through the attic and I found one of the old songs books - and there were some great songs in it too. But that didn't help.

You can get all the beautiful and powerful harmonies you like in a chorus, and you don't need the word in front of you to join in, not by the time you've heard it a few times anyway by the last verse. And the harmonies are there by instinct with every bunch of folkies I've ever come across. It may be we're more used to that kind of thing in the Old World.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 07:20 PM

Allex! NICE to see you!!

The point I was makng about string quartets plaing with dots, etc. was that they couldn't possibly play well if they had their heads buried in the books. To say no one can keep rhythm, harmonise, etc. if they use a book is incorrect if one takes a look at a symphony, etc. They all have to watch the conductor very closely. They know the music well enough to play it in their sleep, usually, but they use the dots and still manage to come together with great expression evoking strong emotions in their audiences.

Thanks for mentioning singing around the piano. That's what my family did almost every Saturday night, with and without sheet music and we had plenty of eye contact and feelings expressed.

Maybe most newer members are coming to it completely new without any experience as such? Ah well, it's been interesting.

kat

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 05:53 PM

Abuwood, My approach to joining in is that it's o.k. if ,(a) you are invited, (b) if you know the singer well enough to know they won't be upset.

Ned.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: vectis
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 05:29 PM

I need a few prompts nowadays. I can remember about 200 songs but have found that when I learn a new one an older song seems to drop out of the memory bank.
My friends put it down to senility. It really annoys me but I keep finding new songs that I like. I can't interpret songs if I read the words but a prompt sheet gives me confidence.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 09:17 AM

MT, comparing a folk song circle to a symphony orchestra is apples to oranges. "Classical" music is much too complex to have each musician playing it "His/her" way. Leonard Bernstien once called "classical" music "Precise" music. It must be totally controlled to sound right. Even a sloppy conductor can make the music sloppy sounding. There is no end to this debate, it all boils down to opinion; and one is no more valid than the other. (Unless you happen to be a control freak)

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:39 AM

I think we're also getting a little bogged down with the 'song-circle' question...this sounds rather like a song workshop which, if that is the case, would necessitate the use of communal lyrics sheets, etc,. The folk club is a different kettle of fish entirely and I find the idea of singing songs with a set theme or, for example, singing a song about a railway because the previous singer sang one a rather strange concept.

The singarounds in English clubs, once restricted to festival sessions, now seem to dominate the club scene and I feel, like the good Captain, that the art of entertaining via folk song has been lost in favour of an almost sewing-circle mentality...and I mean no detriment here to partakers of that particular past-time.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Kernow John
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:36 AM

Oh Gawd
Another type of folk police!
Are you going to give up the chance of hearing a beautiful voice (not mine) just because the singer can't remember words. Not me.
I'm knocking on a bit now and can't learn new songs like I used to doesn't mean I dont like playing them so I use a book so what?
KJ

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 07:40 AM

Harry, I'm absolutely certain that losing the ability to entertain has played a large part in the decline of the folk clubs. One of the biggest headaches I had as an organiser was dealing with the people who clearly shouldn't have been performing because their skills were so poor that they were tolerated rather than enjoyed. Often these people had no notion that entertainment was part of the equation.

In the early days it was not so much of a problem as there were so many good performers that I could slip the odd dodgy one in and with a bit of banter and perhaps accompanyment we could make their performance passable.

As time went on the audiences began to grow tired as more of the poorer performers wanted to sing while at the same time the people with talent were disappearing as the didn't want to sit through half an hour of embarassing stuff before they go their spot. Indeed there were some club members who seemed to have a mission to get anyone and everyone performing.

As the poorer performers became regulars they would of ten get quite affronted if they were missed out so that a decent act could go on.

I think we've been far to kind to people over the years to the detriment of the folk scene in general. None of the people I'm thinking of ever improved their performances or finally learned their words. Most are still singing the same repertoire by all accounts.

As far as the comaprison with classical music goes, we are not talking about 100 people playing a complicated half hour score. We are talking about three or four verses and as many chords.

Cheers - Captain Swing

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: John Routledge
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 06:58 AM

Surely if a singer isn't interested enough in a song to sing it through at least several times before singing it to a group/audience it is unreasonable for them to expect others to be interested enough to listen.

This does not apply where local ground rules provide otherwise. :0)

Keep singihg everyone.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 05:13 AM

An interesting point from Captai Swing a few messages back...I also remember the heady days of folk clubs with residents, floor spots and...shock-horror...an audience!!

Is it possible that our folk clubs have declined because we have lost the ability to entertain and thus reach a wider audience? Can it be that the song-circle/singaround has frightened off people by their intensity and the "you've got to join in to be included" mentality...just a thought my kitties.

Incidentally...thanks to everyone who has conributed in making this such an interesting thread.

Keep your thoughts coming......

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Abuwood
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 04:50 AM

Well said McGrath, to make an evening go well it is better that the song flow from one person to another. To do that you have to have a good selection in your head, and that is what I am aiming to. But I like singing harmony too, and to do that the others have to know the song and the repertoire is likely to be limited. So this is my current dilemma. Is it ettiquette to join anothers persons song if you know it and can do a harmony?

To agree with other posts I have pop song still from my youth, but peoples names are often difficult - strange thing memory isn't it?

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 04:28 AM

Bill D., I didn't mean to be presumptuous. I attend several "song circles"--where folks take turns leading or presenting a song, and it can be a solo, duet, call and response, all-join-on-the-chorus, or group sing. I also attend one "jam/song circle" where it's explicitly expected that all songs to be sung by the group and, unless it's a very simple/familiar song, we are to use a book or provide lyric/chord sheets. I also participate in instrumental-oriented jams where folks [who are very good folk/bluegrass/Celtic/country musicians] refer to diminished chords and major 7ths as "jam busters" and prefer that you provide melody notation sheets when introducing an unfamiliar song, unless it's a pretty standard three or four chord pattern. [Several of these pickers can play fiddle, mandolin, guitar, bass, autoharp, and dulcimer and pick out melodies by ear if it's in the right genre, but I freaked 'em out by trying to do "Urge For Goin'" one time, because they didn't know the tune and Joni Mitchell uses chord changes that are unpredictable to a bluegrasss player. Individually, a lot of these folks can play jazz guitar or even classical, but they're not used to jamming unless it's bluegrass, country, or Celtic.]

Why should [some--many] songs be sung as a group?--Because you can get HARMONY, COUNTERPOINT, CALL-And-REPONSE, and a whole array of musical complexities that take an ordinary song and make it something incredible! A simple song like "Shortnin' Bread" can be fantastic when done by a group that can harmonize and embellish. [Barbershop and do-wop groups are great at this, not to mention a good Gospel choir.]

Besides there's something magical on a social-emotional level about blending many different voices into one song.

But I agree that some songs are best as solos.

Rich M., good point about the singing around the piano. Similarly, Alex's point about the symphony. FWIW, a lot of good pianists play with sheet music in front of them.

Crane Driver, I mentioned my choir above. Your post ties in with that. Choirs use sheet music [especially when singing Mozart, rather than Woody Guthrie] because the improvisation that a soloist can do will usually NOT work in a group of 40 voices.

FWIW, folks, I recently performed one of my own songs for the "open mic" at Singtime Frolics, and I blew an important line in spite of having the lyric/chord sheet on a music stand in front of me! I was so intent on singing the song TO the audience that I hardly glanced at the sheet and wasn't paying attention to it when I came to that line!

Genie

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 01:17 AM

I've never seen a symphony orchestra perform without the sheet music right in front of them. I've never heard them accused of not playing together because of it.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 12:43 AM

Another latecomer- Surely the most important thing is to sing? Personally I normally learn a song fully before public performance, but some folk haven't got that confidence. I hate it when people sing a song that they have not learned, but I know many folk who open a book and never use it, indeed, I have one old friend that was distraught on losing her song book until it was pointed out that she hadn't needed it for years!

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: RichM
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 11:36 PM

There are performances, and there are sessions.

Each has its own etiquette. When I perform, I don't use
written material, except occasionally,only in less formal circumstances.

When I'm sessioning with other singers/players, I do use
written material, except for those songs I know well.

I'm not sure where this idea
that we should all try
to be performers comes from; past generations would gather
around the piano and sing from written materials.
It was understood that we were all 'amateurs'...

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 11:22 PM

As B.D. said, "...but I'll know my song well before I start singing."

I agree. I always felt that we owe that to our audience.

In the days when I was doing school shows, something that pissed me off to no end were the tyeachers that sat there and graded papers while I was minding their students for them. Twenty or even five eople thumbing through a book for the perfect song instead of hearing what is being sung right then, is almost as annoying.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 11:01 PM

I don't use songbooks myself, because I play concertina while singing, and its hell turning the page unobtrusively! Several people at my local club do use them, and that's OK except when someone can't sing a particular song because he hasn't got the right book with him. I guess that's the difference between an online memory system and passive data retrieval. I never had problems learning words until I started singing in a group - I now find that I rarely sing a song exactly the same twice, not in any really important detail, but in little words - 'and' or 'but', that sort of thing. It's only a problem when there are eight of you on stage, some singing 'that' and some singing 'which', but we're working on it. Generally though, no we don't use lyric sheets (except for the Welsh song, but that's another story).

Andrew

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Joe_F
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 11:00 PM

It seems to me that (1) having one person sing and the rest listen, (2) having one person sing the stanzas and the rest join in on the refrain, and (3) having everybody sing the whole song are all legitimate, and have their own pleasures, and may reasonably be catered for at different sings or at the same sing. In cases (1) & (2) it is IMO pleasanter if the singer can do without a written text, but some singers can't, and I wouldn't want to tell them to shut up. In case (3) it is certainly nice if people can take cues from each other & not have their noses buried in books, but that requires a stable group & a limited repertoire, because with folksongs, almost by definition, people are going to come in knowing different versions, and some sort of agreement has to be arrived at. That is asking a lot in this age of high mobility. In a group where there are new people at every session, each with his or her own notion of the order of stanzas and the name of the narrator in "St James Infirmary Blues", RUS is IMO the lesser evil.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 10:34 PM

I'm coming in late on this one, but what the hey...

For me, if I'm going to, let's say, the local shanty sing, and I want to sing a song there that is not among my usual repetoire, I may indeed choose to have the lyrics in front of me. In my case, I do have songs I need to learn for the group, and I have a lot else on my plate besides what with raising a kid, working full time, and trying to get my house in order. Add to this that my memory is for shite. It takes a *lot* of effort for me to memorize a song (tunes are another thing...I can remember them after hearing them once), and so, I personally choose not to devote the brain space unless it is something I will be doing with my group.

In any case, my personal POV on this one is, if it's an informal atmosphere, and I don't butcher the piece, why not use cheat sheets?

I respect that others may not like this much, but I'd hope that they'd forgive me and give a listen anyway.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 09:57 PM

ah, Genie...your reply to me presupposes SO many things!!.....

"In sing-alongs, having lyrics available enables the entire group to sing a song which otherwise would have been a solo or duet with everyone else listening. When we DON'T use books or lyric sheets in sing-alongs, I often find there's pressure to limit our selections to songs with choruses--which leaves out a lot of great songs."

I can't comprehend why most songs should be sung as a group!...Many songs are done a bit differently by various people, and I have often been in a situation where I had others trying to sing it THEIR way, when it wasn't what I had planned....And some songs are truly best as solos!

I guess I am confused by your use of the term "sing-alongs" ...what I am used to attending are "song circles", called by our group 'open sings'....where there can be MANY types of song, from hymns designed to be sung in harmony, to solos, to call & answer songs, to songs where the POINT is for a chorus.

No matter what you sing, you will "leave out a lot of great songs." I'd far rather just listen to a decent singer do a song they know, rather than try to follow one I DON'T know well. And if the group repertoire is limited to what is on some standard set of 'song sheets' or RUS, frankly, I would be bored stiff!...

Now, if some people WANT to form a group and sing 'from the book', and they all understand that, fine...no law agin' it, but I am just not wired that way...*shrug*....

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 09:44 PM

I'm in there with Lanfranc.

Words to songs come easy - although I remember lyrics to '50s rock and roll songs from high school better than the new one I learned last week.

But I don't have a prayer of remembering names of clients or casual friends that I meet on the street. I can usually remember the names of my wife, children and cats, but anyone more distant than that, I lose quickly.

I guess everything has its tradeoff.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM

When I first started going to folk clubs around 1972 the clubs were well attended and with a good contingent of younger people ( I was 17 ). I can't remember anyone bringing their words with them, it just wouldn't have happened. You rehearsed your stuff and performed it when it was ready. I found that I would usually make mistakes on the first few performances but the process of 'covering' those mistakes increased both my confidence and my ability to communicate the song.

In 1985 I founded Cottingham Folk Club. We attracted a very large following of local performers. I usually had a great deal of difficulty in fitting everyone in. Most of the performers accompanied themselves, no one brought their words with them. The atmosphere was vibrant, the banter was brilliant.

My policy was to encourage local and new performers. Unfortunately this backfired on me. Soon people realised that we would give everyone a chance. The less able performers rode on the backs of the more able. That's OK as long as those people start to develop for themselves.

Sadly this didn't happen. Gradually the ringbinders started coming in. The experienced performers started to leave and the ringbinders took over along with the people who have six songs that they know and expect to sing them every week.

People with their noses in a ringbinder couldn't communicate, entertain or banter. The atmosphere collapsed. The club became a habit rather than a joy. I left.

Learn your stuff and communicate it !

Cheers - Captain Swing

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM

What works for me is simple; when I want to learn a song, I write it down in long hand, and once I have learned it, it is branded on my brain somewhere. When I sing it, I can picture those words in my mind's eye.

Subject: RE: Singing from books: Why?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 08:47 PM

Well said, McGrath.

Genie, thanks, I don't have the experience with song circles that you and the others do. The folks I've played with, in the past, used dots, but their heads were never "buried" in them!*bg* I guess that is an art in itself. Ah well, apples and oranges, eh? Maybe I should ask Ditzee Lee what she does?!