BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime

Subject: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:58 AM

will the isreali soldiers be charged with war crimes? could the jews be guilty of a holoucast on the palestines interesting very interesting

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM

Some would say all war is a crime...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:38 PM

I'd guess that would depend on whether or not the investigation currently underway determines that any crime was committed, or if the civilian deaths were unintentional tragedies of war. Also, please remember that, while Israel was established as a nation for the Jewish people (and it has Christian, Moslem and unaffiliated citizens), the words "Israeli" and "Jew" are not synonyms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:50 PM

I feel that most of whats being said about warcrimes on the international forum is just hot air and playing the propoganda game. We have yet to see the evidence for atrocities on the scale that is being claimed took place. Repeated showing of the same apartment block having been destroyed, with the same unfortunate dead on the floor just doesn't do it.

Being labled nowadays as racist, being accused of genocide these days produces a stigma that all too often sticks whether true or not.

As the Israeli army is now withdrawing from many of the occupied areas, lets see if the palestinians are able to show themselves as reasonable after having undergone this recent occupation, or whether Arafat's lot will show how ineffective they are at stopping the suicides bombers that are always cited as being carried out in retaliation for this that or the other.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM

If you write "the jews" rather than "the Jews" or "gypsies" rather than "Gypsies" and so forth is generally interpreted as indicating a wish to insult the people involved.

Maybe that is purely an arbitrary convention, but anyone breaking it in this sort of context is inviting people to read it as intentional.

I imagine in this case it isn't meant to carry that coded meaning, since RO1SIN only uses capital letters for his name. But in any case talking about "the Jews" doing something is wrong headed. It's no different from saying "the Muslims were responsible for September 11th", of "the Christians carried out the Holocaust".

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 01:52 PM

will the isreali soldiers be charged with war crimes? could the jews be guilty of a holoucast on the palestines interesting very interesting

To RO1SIN:

I accuse YOU of anti-Semitism.

1) The title you chose for this thread indicates that Israeli soldiers HAVE been charged with a war crime. I assume that you are talking about the events at Jenin. At this point there is no determination that the massacre that some are accusing Israel of has even taken place.

2) You imply that "the jews" could be guilty of carrying out "a holocaust." First of all, soldiers in the Israeli Army may be Jews, but they are not "the Jews."

Do you know what a Holocaust is? A Holocaust is when 6,000,000 people are systemically murdered in a genocide. And while the death of any innocent person is a tragedy, there has been no Holocaust. If the Israelis had any desire to systemically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, it would be much more efficient to simply bomb the Palestinians.

RO1SIN, do not tell me that you are not anti-Semitic. Your language speaks for itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 02:13 PM

Sledge: Good post. McGrath: Surprise! I agree with you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:06 PM

While I agree that an investigation is needed before anyone can say that war crimes have been committed, I also would say that an investigaion is needed before anyone can say that war crimes have not been committed.

If the Israelis had any desire to systemically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, it would be much more efficient to simply bomb the Palestinians

I disagree with this supposition. Whether or not the Israeli military are guilty of war crimes, one thing they certainly aren't is stupid. If they were going systematically or indiscriminately kill innocent people, they would do pretty much what has been done: they would prevent any outside observers from being in the area while the military operation was taking place, and then they would remove and bury any bodies themselves with no independent observers present. This has already been done. And we know that the Israeli Supreme Court authorized the removal and burial of the bodies by the Israeli military.

If, as a result of these practices, Israel finds itself dealing with the perception that it may have committed war crimes, they really have themselves to thank for that.

I don't find it terribly difficult to accept the idea that the Israeli military could commit war crimes for two reasons...

Someone I know who has an extensive military and law enforcement background worked closely with the Israeli military and police forces as a consultant during the Gulf War. A year or so ago, he told me some things about the Israeli military's standard operating procedure. This person has the utmost admiration for the Israeli military, so he wasn't saying anything in a critical sort of way. He actually endorses these practices. However, they do involve some highly questionable practices according to international law.

And I just can't get the image out of my mind that I saw of a man sitting on his living room floor looking bewildered, while the bodies of his brother and sister-in-law were in the process of decomposing on the floor next to him. They were killed by the Israeli military, and because of the Israeli military, the man was not able to remove these loved ones from his living room for several days. I don't think this was in Jenin. I think it was in one of the other places that the Israeli military has been conducting incursions.

And then there are the reports by independent observers of Israeli military forces indiscriminately killing anyone they saw in the street, such as a woman who was trying to get to a clinic to have a wounded arm looked after (not in Janin), and the firefighters who were trying to put out a fire behind the the besieged church in Bethlehem (and many others).

No matter how you slice it, these things don't look good for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:17 PM

we know that the Israeli Supreme Court authorized the removal and burial of the bodies by the Israeli military.

Who is this "we" that you speak of. I read the NY Times, the Jerusalem Post and several other newspapers each day. I also have CNN on for many hours of the day. I have seen no such report about the Israeli Supreme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 03:23 PM

I saw it in the news reports of pretty much every news source I have been keeping track of. However, I think I remembered what was said incorrectly. I believe that there was mention of allowing the Red Crescent to observe the burials. So I stand corrected on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:00 PM

I find the tone of a couple of postings here a little unsavoury so I don't think I'll join you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:19 PM

I think that one thing that must be considered, given that it has happened in earthquakes, etc., is that people might have alive for days and deliberately covered over with rubble. I say this as someone who is usually a military apologist, and someone who believes that a military occupation of Palestine will be necessary for some time. I personally will go over there and do it if necessary, and I'm not soft on terrorists. But I will not give a blank check to my government to support this sort of brutality. Those days are over. Not one piece of our equipment, not one dollar of our money without observers. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 04:53 PM

Mr Feder

Sol a voxen a grosen poopik

When I say Jews you say Israelis

When I say Israelis you say Jews

When I talk about jews you say I am insulting your religion

whatever

When we say Irish or donkeys or paddys or micks of taighs or harps we dont care because we have been persucted for 800 yrs

suck it up pal

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 05:29 PM

This is not the first time that RO1SIN has shown him/herself for the anti-Semite that he/she is.

On March 8, 2002, RO1SIN started a thread, supposedly about Israel, that he/she called "The Old Jewish Question."

Anyone who has ever studied history knows that the "Jewish Question" is has to do with the right of Jews to participate in society. We also know what the Nazis determined would be the Final Solution to the "Jewish Question."

Looking at RO1SIN's response to Feder, it is easy to see that he/she takes delight in his/her anti-Semitism.

I fail to understand why Joe and Max allow Mudcat to be used by racists and anti-Semites with a destructive agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 05:57 PM

What the second intifada has shown, with increasing numbers of young Palestinians eager to become martyrs, is that the zionists can be made to pay a much higher price for their occupation of Palestine. When this cost is increased to the point that it outweighs its benefits or becomes more than the Israelis are willing and able to pay (or both), the zionists will be forced to go. Neither negotiations nor diplomacy mean anything to the zionists. After all, the Oslo accords were designed to favour the Israelis, who used them simply to trick the Palestinians into doing the zionists' dirty work, without the Israelis fulfilling any of their obligations. So why should anyone at all, let alone the besieged, betrayed Palestinians, trust them to behave differently in the future?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:07 PM

Israeli scientists are working on a genetically-targeted biological weapon which would kill Arabs without affecting other peoples.

The genetic weapons research program is based at the Institute for Biological Research in Nes Tziyona, outside Tel Aviv. It is known to be Israel's main research facility for 'weapons of mass destruction', and home to Israel's illegal and secret arsenal of chemical and biological weapons.

The proposed new weapon is based on recent western advances in genetics, including the animal and human 'cloning' programs, and would work by identifying genes exclusively carried by Arabs or certain kinds of Arabs. Special viruses designed to attack people carrying these genes could then be spread in Arab countries by spraying in the air or by infecting public water supplies.

Israel has, of course, denied the reports, as it continues to officially deny having any nuclear weapons, even though it is now widely acknowledged, even by its western allies, that it has a standing nuclear capability of at least 200 warheads.

It is interesting to note that the Israeli research program is similar to research carried out in South Africa during the apartheid period, to develop genetic weapons which could target blacks without affecting whites. The apartheid regime also had an advanced chemical weapons program, which it developed in co-operation with the US, Britain, Canada, Japan and Germany and is known to have worked closely with Israel in various military and defence areas.

The genetic weapons research program is built on scientific advances in genetics, in which US and British scientists lead the field. It is unlikely that Israel would be able to work in this area without privileged access to the latest work being done in the US and Britain. Nor, indeed, are western powers likely to permit Israel to develop weapons capabilities they do not already have themselves.

The Israeli work breaches numerous international laws and agreements, but has not even been raised in the United Nations or any other international forum. This is in sharp contrast to the treatment of Iraq, allegedly for its development of weapons of mass destruction, and of Pakistan following its nuclear tests in 1998. The lesson that there is one international law for the west, and another for the rest - which some Muslims seem stubbornly reluctant to grasp - is inescapable.

So too should be the awareness that the west represents a totally amoral civilization, if not an inherently evil one, with which Muslims and the Islamic movement cannot deal on any terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,a different one
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

my god there's some funny ones crawling out from under the stones tonight

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:13 PM

I think guest has been reading way too many Tom Clancy novels.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM

Seems to me the "opressed beseiged" palestinians have shown time and again they would rather fight and murder than live in peace. Could have had a country of thier own in 2000, for that matter could have lived peaceably beside israel since 1947. They have continually chosen not to. There will be no peace until they acknowledge the right of israel to exist and stop teaching thier children it is a noble thing to murder israeli civilians. So why should i or anyone else care how many palestinians die? History doesn't lie unless you choose to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 06:49 PM

So why should i or anyone else care how many palestinians die?

Do you really mean that, truckerdave? Would you support ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians? Would you support the elimination of Palestinians so we won't have to be bothered with them any more? When we get to the point where we don't care how many of a particular group of people are killed or die, it's not a very big step to get to the idea of genocide. You wouldn't support that, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:09 PM

Re the post of the unnamed 'guest' of 21-Apr-02 -06:07 PM

...would work by identifying genes exclusively carried by Arabs or certain kinds of Arabs. Special viruses designed to attack people carrying these genes could then be spread in Arab countries...

There is absolutely no scientific basis for this so-called 'research' at all, as there is more variation between the genotypes of two individuals of the same 'race' than there is between different 'races'.

I felt someone had to say it, for the benefit of those who might be taken in by this story.

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Marcus Black Wolf
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:11 PM

In reply to Roisin's yammering about Paddys and Micks been used as offensive terms to apply to Irish people you might think that would make her realise just how cutting and low such epitphets are. Also, yes Ireland has been persecuted mercilessly for 800 plus years but ahem, ever hear of little things like Masada, the revolt of the Macabbes etc which happened even further back in world history?

If you take the conscious chose to seize the racist and bigoted terms others have used about the Irish and transform then that is fine as you are Irish and can make that decision. Don't presume you have the right to make that choice for a Jewish person, the Black and Tans were grotesque, as was the apartheid state in the North -but they are a candle beside an inferno next to the Final Solution.

And even as a Nationalist whose politics often shade into Republicanism I do get a wee bit tired with the 800 years of oppression bit. Malcom X had the message for the black man that he had to see past previous injustices and realise his own dignity and worth. Yes, we should recall the injustices done but they don't define us a nation.

Marcus

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:25 PM

CarolC: what the Israeli Supreme Court said was that the Israeli army was forbidden to remove any bodies for burial elsewhere, and that any bodies already removed must be returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:33 PM

artbrooks, can you point me to a source for that? That's not what I heard, but I'm prepared to stand corrected for that, too, if what I said was incorrect.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:34 PM

This is a subject that is best not discussed on a thread coloured by racism, sectarianism and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM

Here is the most recent article. The one I saw was about a week ago and doesn't show up on a search anymore. CNN This says that the army can bury bodies, but apparently only if nobody else claims them. This is obviously necessary, for health reasons if nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:39 PM

Thanks artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:42 PM

The article isn't doesn't differ significantly from what I said...

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Supreme Court on Sunday dismissed a case that sought to bar the Israel Defense Forces from burying Palestinian victims at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.

And now I think I'm going to agree with McGrath about this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM

Carol C: your post of April 21, 3:06 P.M. First paragraph:huh? Next to the last paragraph: you find young Palestinian people blowing themselves, and innocent civilians in crowded markets, a more acceptable form of warfare?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 07:57 PM

DougR, I don't know what you have difficulty understanding about my first paragraph.

Re: my next to last paragraph, I find neither the Israeli approach, nor the Palestinian approach acceptible. But the Israeli approach is the one that is being endorsed and financed by the US government. So that is the one I am speaking out against here. If I saw balance in the way this situation is being handled, I would probably not be speaking out at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Heely
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:29 PM

One must be very carful what one says and does in writing on the internet. CarolC, thank you for your interpretation of the endorsements of the US. My first cousin. . . who I just saw this morning. . . General Anthony Zinni , would disagree with your accounting. Balance is achieved with an open and unprejudiced heart, and a willingness to listen. We must all practice peace, and discourage misinformation being spread. Zinni is an Italian Catholic America married to an Irish/German Protestant American. Peace, Shalom, Slan.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:46 PM

Heely, your cousin, General Anthony Zinni is certainly entitled to his opinions. However, so am I. And I disagree with your cousin. Now, as far as balance being achieved with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen, would you also apply that to Mr. Sharon? Would you say that he has been conducting himself with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen? It is my opinion that he has not.

I would say that Yossi Beilin (former Israeli justice minister) has been aproaching this issue with an open and unprejudiced heart and a willingness to listen, as has, in my opinion, former US President, Jimmy Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:50 PM

One must be very carful what one says and does in writing on the internet.

I took this to be a statement of opinion. However, perhaps it is a warning from your cousin. If that's the case, I would appreciate you letting me know in a PM so I can modify my behavior accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow is right
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:55 PM

"This is a subject that is best not discussed on a thread coloured by racism, sectarianism and bigotry." -McGrath of Harlow

McGrath of Harlow is right. The fact that Max and Joe permit Mudcat to be used by the forces of racism, sectarianism and bigotry is inexcusable.

Mudcat purports to be "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." I read blues (Living Blues) and folk music (Sing Out, fRoots, Dirty Linen) magazines and none of them would permit the garbage that is posted on Mudcat with great regularity.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 08:59 PM

And on that note, if anyone else has anything they want to address specifically to me, as the several of the last posts have been, please put them in a PM or in the other currently running thread on this subject. I would prefer to not answer them on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:27 PM

General Zinni? THE General Zinni? If so, I would say he has information that would make him somewhat of an expert on the subject.

CarolC: I was jabbing you a bit about that first paragraph because it didn't seem to me that it added much to the subject. An investigation would show whether or not atrocities were committed. That's a given, isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Heely
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM

Doug, Yes, THE General Zinni. He more than any of us should have an opinion on this matter. At least he has done something about it.He made peace efforts that we can all take lessons from. Pray for peace in our world. (by the way. Cousin Tony loves our folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 02 - 10:06 PM

Honest to goodness, my last post to this thread.

Heely, when I see the US government putting some real pressure on the Israeli government to implement your cousin's proposals, rather than the lip service they are giving it now, maybe then I'll believe the US government is genuinely interested in a balanced approach to the problems in the region. Until then, it just looks like so much hot air to me. Especially when they don't put their full support behind their own Secretary of State while he's in the region, working hard to get things moving, but act like he's nothing more than a freelancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:03 AM

GUEST, McGrath of Harlow is right.
"Mudcat purports to be "a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." I read blues (Living Blues) and folk music (Sing Out, fRoots, Dirty Linen) magazines and none of them would permit the garbage that is posted on Mudcat with great regularity. "
If this is how you feel, sport, just why have you chosen to grace us garbage mongers with your presence on not one, but TWO threads using the same sentence?

troll

BTW, I won't be upset if you don't answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: tremodt
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 09:58 AM

I do not believe that I am an anti semite it is just a question

will war crimes be found in jennin

yes? no?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

I do not believe that I am an anti semite says RO1SIN.

When you suggest "the jews" (sic), rather than some Israeli soldiers, may have committed a "holocaust," when no crime, and certainly no alleged massacre, has even yet to be proven, you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

When you start a thread about Israel, as you did on 2002 8 March, and call it "The Old Jewish Question," you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

When you tell me to "suck it up pal" when I object to your anti-Semitic language, you are speaking the language of anti-Semites.

Your choice of words speaks volumes. The fact that Max and Joe allow you to use Mudcat as a medium for anti-Semitism is shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM

some of the postings on this thread are indeed shameful, but the fact that Max and Joe allow it is not at all shameful. It is very important for us all to know who is out there, and what they're up to, and how they operate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 10:55 AM

we should all be working for peace, in the middle east and every where else. AND one MUST be allowed to question the policies and actions of the Israeli government without being called an anti-Semite. It's no different than our questioning/protesting against the US government during the Vietnam war, or the Gulf war, or the "Afghan Crisis" and being called anti-American, or now, a terrorist. Our government policy re: the Middle East I find reprehensible, and culpable. Sharon in my opinion is a war mongering terrorist if ever there was one. The actions of the Israeli army, in general, and in specific cases, is shameful. and the ethnic cleansing aims of Sharon's new minister are genocidal, and indeed crimes against humanity. I don't think that there can be peace for Israel without there being a Palestinian state. And for now there will be no Palestinian state without Arafat. If Sharon's aim is to assassinate Arafat, hoping the Palestinians will all move to Jordan, he is sadly mistaken. Sharon's policies will bring nothing to the people of Israel and Palestine but more bloodshed. And having a US President and many of his advisors being right wing Christians who actually believe in Biblical prophecy, Armageddon, the Second Coming and all that is truly frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:12 AM

we should all be working for peace, in the middle east and every where else. AND one MUST be allowed to question the policies and actions of the Israeli government without being called an anti-Semite.

I do not dispute the right of anyone to question the policies and actionsof the Israeli government. I am myself no fan of Sharon, and I do not support much of what the Sharon government has done in the very necessary fight against terrorism. If it were up to me, there would be a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Palestinian territories and a dismantling of the Israeli settlements.

However, what I do find disgraceful is when criticism of the Israeli government is shrouded in anti-Semitism. There is too much of that in the world and there is too much of it right here at Mudcat. The language that RO1SIN chooses is loaded anti-Semitic language. RO1SIN knows that and that seems to be RO1SIN's purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: Troll
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 12:09 PM

GUEST, Feder, it could be that RO1SIN is simply a clueless, insensitive boob who truly does not get the message.
Or not.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:28 PM

And todays award for the gratuitous use of "Genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" goes to Bill Kennedy, with extra points awarded for inclusion of the these phrases in the same sentence.

Stuart

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:46 PM

I would say that award should go to yourself, mr. sledge, for using them in the same sentence. I did not use them gratuitously and stand by my use of them.

If the new minister in Sharon's government states, as he has, publically, that his goal is to drive all of the Palestinians out of the west bank and gaza, and into Jordan or wherever else will have them, and if Sharon and the Israeli army actually destroy enough homes and infrastructure and kill enough residents, identifying them as Palestinian or just arab, that is both ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide. By making these statements I have not apologized for or condoned in any way the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers or Arafat. I question Sharon's policies and describe them as I see them as above.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 02:08 PM

One politico mouthing off does not make policy for the nation, it is in the nature of polititions to make remarks that are often crass and inexcusable.

I have yet to see anything in the various news reports that shows anything like genocide or ethnic cleansing. Mass graves as seen in Bosnia have yet to be shown to exist, systematic round ups and mass shootings, have they taken place? that to me is ethnic cleansing and as for genocide, the Israelis surely know enough about being on the recieving end of that, that they are not likely to go down that road themselves. If it were shown to be the case I feel that they would soon find themselves a very small friendless nation, and for all their bluster they know it.

Stuart aka sledge

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 04:43 PM

one or two more general comments, than quiet from me.

It may be, as Stuart says, in the nature of politicians to make crass and inflammatory statements, but I say they must be challenged WHENEVER they do so. Sharon & his government has not distanced itself or responded to those ministerial comments in any meaningful way.

POLITICAL RHETORIC KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE. It always has. It must be replaced by reasoned dialogue, not simply tolerated and accepted. Le Pen will rant about immigrants and somewhere people will be burned out of thier homes or killed by mobs. Likewise, the Minister in Israel & others will inflame others to acts of barbarity, & may do so in the name of peace.

MANY Israeli leaders have stated they want all arabs out of Israel. That is ethnic cleansing, which they may have not yet achieved or attempted, but it must be challenged early. I am not accusing Israel of specific war crimes YET, but I will not apologize for them if they occur, and if speaking out early can prevent them, so be it. The actions in the former Yugoslavia were not perpertrated in secret, but were given tacit approval by the silence of the rest of the world. Even more is at stake in the Arab/Israeli conflict. Now is the time to speak.

Peace must by achieved peacefully or it is not peace. The Palestinian intafada, from my point of view, is an attempt by them to respond to an overwhelming force of power in any way they can. IMHO Israel will not achieve peace through power, only a bitter, contested, short lived control. Not peace.

Let us all ask our leaders what they really seek. Mr. Sharon, do you want peace? or control? Mr. Arafat do you want peace? or revenge? Mr. Bush, do you want peace in the Middle East? or stable oil markets? If any of these 'leaders' do not want peace, we must work to replace them with those who do. The other things are not worth working for, and cannot be tolerated.

Having said all that, and holding back much more that can yet be said, I open myself up to the snide and sarcastic comments of those inclined to make such remarks, by saying I sure wish there were more interesting musical threads in the café.

It seems often when some new 'Catter, guest or otherwise, asks for info on a song, they are treated patronizingly by many, with 'it's in the DT...' or 'didn't you look?' or 'don't you know how to..?' more often then they are welcomed encouragingly by 'you've come to the right place', 'let me talk you through this' or 'that's an interesting question about a song we've discussed here many times, you might want to see...'. It seems we can start to build a more peaceful world even at this level. Ad hominems should be discouraged, trolls should be ignored, BS chat should be entered into sparingly if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 05:02 PM

Please advise of the name, party affiliation and position of the Israeli government official who allegedly made these statements.