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BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: tremodt Date: 26 Apr 02 - 01:13 PM troll huh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:52 AM troll - I understand what you are saying, for sure, although I would partially disagree with much of it. You are viewing it all through a certain prism, and probably have not read some of the articles I have, representing the more progressive forces in the Muslim community (I'm assuming that you haven't read them...I may be wrong). Yes, the Arab oil states are extremely wealthy...for the few at the top. One of the reasons why the wealth is not shared with the general populace is this: the USA and Britain have traditionally supported autocratic rule by compliant dictators in many Muslim countries (and elsewhere in the 3rd World too), supplying them with weaponry in return for oil and military bases. Some examples: Saudia Arabia, Egypt (not for oil, but for other strategic reasons), Kuwait, Pakistan, Indonesia, and until fairly recently, Iraq. Iran when the Shah was in power. There have been some genuine initiatives toward democracy in some of those places from time to time...crushed by people on an unofficial USA payroll. Britain did the same thing when they were ruling the roost in the Middle East. They talked democracy, supported autocracy and feudalism. Neither the USA nor the dictators they support have any intention of allowing democracy to develop in those countries. Democratic regimes are way too hard to control. (When they do arise of their own accord, as happened in Chile and Nicaragua and began to happen once in Iran, they are ruthlessly destroyed by whatever means possible...a war, a coup, an assassination, an economic blow, whatever it takes.) The Saudi government spends millions on religious facilities...yes...to distract its people and keep them in line while a few rich people live like emperors...in collusion with their rich western friends who own the multinationals. They get together in places like Monaco and Paris and gamble or play polo. A lovely time is had by all. The building of more religious facilities is a cynical exercise, meant to shore up popular support, and it works...for a while. It is precisely because collusion between the West and the local sheiks and bully boys have rendered the development of local democracy impossible that fanatical Islamic revolutions have occurred, like that in Iran. The common people see it as the only avenue left to them to institute change and achieve real national sovereignty. This further imperils the chances of liberalizing and modernizing those societies, and is a great tragedy for the Islamic moderates who dream of achieving a peaceful, progressive, modern society. There are many such moderates, but you don't hear much about them on the news, because they aren't killing people. Is there any reason why the USA should not support Israel? Well, sure there is...a host of reasons. The USA should not support either aggressor in this useless conflict, they should show no favoritism at all, but bring all possible influence to end the fighting by negotiation and equivalent concessions from both sides, and by not arming or funding the combatants on either side. This, of course, would be VERY bad for business, so it absolutely ain't gonna happen! It would likely also help lead to the collapse of several compliant Arab regimes in fairly short order...it's US supplied armaments that keep them in power. Yes, the Arabs have been beaten badly again and again...but they might well have won in 1973, had not the USA massively resupplied Israel with new tanks in a matter of a few days. This is not lost on the Arabs. They had to go it alone. Israel did not. Israel has precisely the advantage in battle that a thoroughly modernized military has over a half-modernized one every time. I've played very accurate simulations of many Middle Eastern battles with tanks, etc....the Arab armies are so technologically outclassed by both the USA and Israel that all they can do, generally speaking, is show that they know how to die bravely. This is what has happened again and again when colonial European forces, a generation or 2 ahead of their opponents in the techniques of war, slaughtered Africans, Asians, or Arabs with more advanced weaponry. It's not really something to be particularly proud of...it's rather like shooting fish in a barrel. This is why you see suicide bombers these days. They feel it is the only way they can strike back effectively and do real damage. For them to fight openly with tanks, etc. is basically suicidal in any case, just as it was for the Japanese after 1943, which is why they too adopted planned suicide tactics on a large scale. The Arabs are not going to stop fighting unless they are all killed, and that is not going to happen...or until there is real substantial negotiation and positive change in the status quo...give and take on both sides. Israel is not particularly interested in that, because they figure they have the power to get what they want by force. They may change their minds if the suicide bombings continue indefinitely. I agree that Israel wants and needs defensible borders, and I understand that concern, particularly as regards the Golan heights. I think that those areas should be demilitarised and strongly occupied for at least a generation (or longer than that, if necessary) by not Israel but a multinational peacekeeping force of well-armed soldiers from neutral countries...but Israel would not hear of it...(nor, perhaps would the Arabs) and the world community is too probably too fractured to agree on how to do it anyway. Too bad. The fighting will go on until something like that is done or until there's a nuclear conflict and everybody in the region gets fried. If Israel was not expansionist, they would not be putting Israeli settlements into various of the occupied areas. Sounds like "lebensraum" to me....remember that? It's on a much smaller scale of course...but the intention is rather similar, I think. "We took this land, so let's use it. Well, now that we live here, we aren't leaving. Too bad for you!" That's expansionist. The same thing happened in America with the Indian lands. They were also outgunned. Lastly, Osama Bin Laden was a rich kid...yes. So? So was Fidel Castro. Most of Castro's rich family repudiated him and fled to Florida when he threw out the Mafia and the multinationals and divided the land up among the farmers who had worked it for generations, on a starvation wage. Why did he do that when he was already a rich kid with a guaranteed easy life at the top of the heap? Well, it happens. Rich people are not necessarily immune to acquiring social ideals, and some of them become fervent revolutionaries despite putting themselves in personal danger and risking losing everything. Washington and Jefferson did. It often happens. What is so surprising that it happened in Bin Laden's case? His religious viewpoint is his form of social conscience. You don't agree with it. I doubt that I do either. But for him, it is a high ideal that is synonymous with having a social conscience. He was an exception to the rule among his peer group. Most of his foot soldiers come from the poor, and I trust that most of his rich relatives have disinherited him. He is a noble who decided to opt out of the club...and that is unforgivable when you're in that club, I believe, but it still happens. Revolutions are often led by the sons of the rich, because rich people have the time and the educational opportunities to read in depth, to think, to philosophize, and to develop theoretical passions and ideals of every kind...if they are so inclined. A few of them always are. Buddha was the son of a king. He chose complete renunciation of all that luxury and privilege, and launched a philosophical revolution that changed the world. But the real key to all of this is that the West (and Russia as well) have pursued foreign policies which pretty well guaranteed that democracy would have no chance of developing in the oil-producing countries, but that they would remain obedient clients of Big Business, ruled by autocrats, and keep their poor people superstitious, helpless, poor and oppressed. It is precisely that which has led to the rise of ever more fanatical and dangerous muslim religious extremists. The West sometimes has used those extremists to fight its dirty wars in places like Afghanistan in the 80's...but later discovered that the scorpion they created will not stay quietly in its box. It's a long, twisted, and sad story. Power has been served. Money has been served. Privilege has been served. Business has been served. Democracy has never been served. There are no good guys among the major players in this Middle Eastern fiasco. Not one. They all have the blood and misery of millions on their hands. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:09 AM At the request of mg, who can't load this thread any more, I have started a continuation of this thread. It can be found here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:11 PM Thank you RO1SIN. That's a good, clear answer. LH, the Arab oil states are wealthy beyond all understanding and if they choose not to share that wealth with their fellows, that's hardly the fault of the US. By what stretch of logic do you think that the US should require Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or the UAE to give money to Jordan or Pakistan? The Saudis spent several billion dollars to modernize Mecca so that Muslim pilgrims on Haj would have modern facilities. Pakistan -not a wealthy country- spent tens of millions on a Mosque. The Saudis put up some of the money but the bulk came from Pakistan. If modernization has been delayed, it is largely because the money is being spent for other things. It is just possible that they feel that Mosques are more important than factories. As for daily humiliation, yes,I can certainly see that. It must really rankle to know that every time they have tried to destroy Israel, they have gotten their tails beaten and the events of the last few weeks have only served to rub salt in the wounds.Yes, the US supports Israel. Can you tell me why we should not? As for regional expansionistic policies, if Israel wanted them, she would now own Lebanon and Jordan. Israel wants secure, defensible borders and guarantees from the Arab states that she will be left in peace. If she has to hold the Golan and the West Bank and Gaza to do this, then that's what she will do. As for the crucible that shaped Osama bin Laden, he was born and raised in an atmosphere of wealth and priviledge that people like you and I can only dimly perceive. His conversion from spoiled rich kid to terrorist came through religious experience, not social conscience. He is much less concerned with bettering the lives of his co-religionists than he is in furthering the spread of Islam via the destruction of those whom HE sees as its enemies i.e. anyone who is not a Muslim. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:49 PM Thanks Spaw. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM Oh yeah....RO1SIN......Are you saying that you believe they will not be charged because the US won't allow it? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:40 PM Not blase at all Carol...far from it. That wasn't my point and you are far from silly of course. I have enjoyed and truly appreciated your posts on this thread......I'm not going in for a long explanation but please understand I wasn't "dissing" you in any way....the jab was directed elsewhere. But I will say that man's inhumanity does not ever surprise me....ever. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:10 PM Actually, you know what Spaw? I think that's an incredibly blase attitude for someone who has been the recipient of so incredibly much of what's good about humanity. Seems like you, of all people, would have some appreciation for the good that can happen when people decide to care about other people, and not just shrug off the misfortunes of others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: tremodt Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:08 PM the point is will they be charged or will the USofA white wash it in some way to Isreals advantage We the Government should let the Israelis stand on their own two feet I guess i will begetting a lot of mail saying that I i am anti semitic again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:57 PM Nice crack there about Shatner there, Doug! LOL! I am always relieved when humour raises its head in these serious discussions, because it brings us to a common level of humanity, and I appreciate your general attitude even though we may not always agree on the political stuff. Like Carol, my views have changed a lot over the years. I remember the 6-Day War (in 1967, was it?)...I was a teenager, curious about the whole situation, with no particular axe to grind. I had to admire "plucky little Israel" for winning so decisively then against so many opponents. Over the years, however, I have grown more and more cynical about the well-oiled machine of high-tech weaponry backed by American dollars that is the mailed fist of Zionism. Their intervention in Lebanon in the 80's was really the last straw, as far as I was concerned, and I think they are suffering from massive hubris, combined with a stunningly arrogant sense of their own presumed innate superiority...racial, cultural, religious, moral, you name it...over the Arabs and Palestinians...over almost anybody, in fact. I have no problem whatsoever with Jews...my problem is with the nation state of Israel, its politicians and generals, and its expansionist blitzkrieg policy of regional domination. I also realize that Israel's opponents are equally unscrupulous and dangerous...but they are far weaker, without the backing of a superpower...and the North American press has not been mollycoddling them for the last 40 years and handling them with kid gloves, in order to expiate its unearned guilt for events that happened 57 years or more ago in Nazi Germany. As for the Arabs, they have been betrayed and sold out by the West ever since the crusades. Remember how hard T.E. Lawrence fought for their nationhood after WWI? Remember how little they got from the victorious Allies? And it's all been for the oil. Britain and America are there strictly for the oil, and the Arabs will cooperate with them...or damned well pay the price. The present price is endemic poverty, foreign-backed dictatorships, partial occupation by foreign troops, delayed modernization, and daily humiliation on a huge scale. Ask them, and they will tell you all about it, but who in America even bothers to ask? Or to listen? That is the crucible in which Osama Bin Laden was forged, and there are many more like him waiting in the wings. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:57 PM Oh. Well then, silly me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:30 PM Try not to be too surprised by it Carol. You were expecting what? Our own inhumanity.....all of us.....knows no bounds. Personally, I'm as intereseted in the inhumane feelings that often exist right here so I'm still waiting for an answer from RO1SIN: If Israeli soldiers are found to have allegedly committed war crimes, why would they NOT be charged and stand trial? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:12 PM Thank you DougR. I'll tell you something. When I first started looking into these things, I was pretty angry. Now, the more I find out, and the more I see people ignoring and denying the evidence staring them in the face, I find that I'm just becoming very, very heartsick for humanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: DougR Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:01 PM Well Carol, I must admit that I do admire your tenacity. You are a good spokesperson for your POV. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM No, DougR, I didn't hold the view I have now until recently. I never in my life thought I would hold the view of the Israeli government that I hold now.
When I first started looking for information, I was trying to find an alternative explanation for the behavior of the Palestinians than the popular idea that they are just hateful and evil. My training in the field of psychology (admittedly all at the undergraduate level) has taught me that destructive behavior has a reason, and when the reason is found, ways can be found to deal with the behavior.
But everywhere I looked, all I could find was hateful language from supporters of the current regime in Israel, and hardly any hateful language from Palestinians. So that made me think that there was more to the situation than we have been told here in the US.
And the more I have looked, the more horrified I have become with what is going on in Israel and Palestine. The first search I did was "Palestinian homeland" + "Jordan". That was where I found the article that made reference to the article by Christopher Hedges. I did a search on "Christopher Hedges" + "children", and I found the name of name of Bet Shalom. I did a search on "Bet Shalom", and I found the piece by Tad Matsui, and the piece by Neta Golan. (And several others that support what they are saying.) I wanted to find out if there was any substance to what someone said about someone having already found evidence of war crimes in Jenin, so I did a search on "Jenin" + "war crimes", and I found the piece by Amnesty International. And several others, such as the one in the Amnesty International site that talkes about the concientious objectors in Israeli prisons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:15 PM Well, that's true, Art. Like I said, in war atrocities happen, and are usually (if not always) committed by both sides...and accidents happen too (like the death of 4 Canadians to an American bomb in Afghanistan...a minor affair in my opinion, but you should see the fuss up here about it!) It is when the mainstream media outlets tend to regularly sanitize the actions of one side and regularly demonize the actions of the other, regardless of the available facts, that we have a serious problem. Israel has gotten a largely free ride on the back of the North American media for at least 5 decades now. The Muslims have never been in that fortunate position, in fact they are almost everyone's favorite whipping boy and boogy monster most of the time. Now that there is a bit of a shift in the tone of news coverage occuring, it's making Israel's traditional supporters very nervous, and they are crying "anti-semitism"...just as O.J.'s lawyers once cried "racism". It is classic obfuscation of the real issue at hand...which in this case is aggression and terrorism, well-organized, well-planned, ruthlessly carried out...by both sides in the Middle East...not just by one of them. I hate to see people get away with murder, specially when they play the "victim" all the while, on the basis of someone else's past grievances. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: artbrooks Date: 25 Apr 02 - 07:15 PM Doug, my point was that a rock will kill you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: DougR Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:57 PM Well, Art, if you KNEW it was a rock, that might be a bit harsh. If you were concerned that it might be a hand grenade, aim well. Carol C: it seems to me that you HAVE done considerable research. Based on the articles you have cited and posted on the forum, though, I would question whether or not you are seeking truth. Rather, it seems to me, your are searching for articles that support your view. No? Sledge: quit sucking up to Little Hawk. He doesn't know William Shatner personally, and cannot get you an audience with him. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: artbrooks Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:16 PM I was taught that "research" means a critical examination of primary sources. A careful selection of newspaper articles (which are, at best, secondary sources...if that) is not research. Much as I hate to say it, if I were on guard someplace, in a combat zone, and a fifteen year old picked up a big rock and was about to throw it at me, I'd probably shoot him. What would the alternative be? Turning the other cheek is an impractical response. Isn't that how David killed Goliath? No, sorry, that was with a small rock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:28 PM One man's war crime is another man's good strategy or "collateral damage". Who would charge the Israeli soldiers? Who would press those charges? Israel? I don't think so. If anyone else did, would Israel pay any attention to the charges (other than dismissing them angrily and contemptuously)? No. The United States paid no attention to the World Court's ruling against it over Nicaragua in the 1980's. Same deal. The Russians are not going to answer to anyone for war crimes in Chechenya. Same deal. There is no tribunal in this world with the strength to make either Israel or the USA listen to them, except maybe one convened by the USA itself, and the USA is not going to do that. War crimes have been committed by both sides, and will continue to be, I'm sure. So what else is new? Why were the Allies not charged with war crimes at the end of World War II? Because they won. And they had the power, that's why. (BTW, I am by no means equating Allied war crimes with those greater atrocities which were committed by the Axis, but the Allies did commit war crimes nonetheless...it is virtually inevitable that this happens in war. Either try ALL the guilty participants...or surrender the pretense of exclusive moral superiority that the winners customarily assume over the vanquished.) I believe that the post which started this thread was intended to do nothing more than suggest: that Israel itself is capable of, and has committed, both terrorism and war crimes...a suggestion which is considered anathema in traditionally pro-Israeli quarters, but which is no more than applying the same rules of conduct to the Israelis which are normally applied to other human beings everywhere. It's rather like saying, in public, that the king has no clothes on. People in the king's court may have a fit if you say that. They may threaten you with excommunication or call you a racist or accuse you of anti-semitism or satanism or racism or blasphemy (all marvelously potent terms with which to demonize someone)...BUT IF the king indeed is walking around naked, then it is still true to say he has no clothes on, regardless if people have a fit or not when you say it. Regardless of what they call you. This king has no clothes on. This king is standing naked before the world, and virtually the whole world knows it. If the king cannot admit to it, he is either blatantly dishonest, or he is lost in some grand delusion, or he is mad. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 05:12 PM And you're right, DougR. I do have a very closed mind when it comes to crimes against humanity. I think they should never be tolerated. And for those who would say, "we shouldn't tolerate crimes against humanity when they are committed by suicide bombers either", I say this... I don't see those crimes being tolerated. I see them being punished. (More than three dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli). But I do see the crimes being committed by the Israeli government and military being tolerated. And more than being tolerated, they're being excused and supported. By us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:35 PM Was the soldier who murdered the Palestinian boy in Neta Golan's piece charged and brought to trial? Or any of the other Israeli soldiers who have committed these attrocities? (And from the research I did last night, there seem to be quite a few of them) No. It sure looks like they haven't. It looks like the Israeli military and the Israeli government has been committing attrocities with impunity for years.
And now it's getting worse, and everybody seems to want to keep their head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. Except for a few brave people, like the Israelis who are in prison for being conscientious objectors. Here's something interesting - there are more consientious objectors in Israeli prisons right now than there have ever been in the history of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:38 PM C'mon RO1SIN......We're waiting............Troll asks you a legitimate question.........What's your answer? I'll answer yours..........If they are found to have allegedly committed war crimes (I say allegedly because without that stipulation there is no question and no need for a trial), then I believe they will and should be charged and tried. Now it's your turn.........Once again: If Israeli soldiers are found to have allegedly committed war crimes, why would they NOT be charged and stand trial? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:43 PM RO1SIN, your original question was:"Will the Israeli soldiers be tried on war crimes IF it is found that war crimes were committed ?" I repeat my question to you; " if israeli soldiers are found to have commited war crimes, why would they NOT stand trial?. I am glad you are willing to stand by your question. But your response doesn't answer MY question. Did you intend your response as an answer or was it merely rhetorical? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: sledge Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:45 PM It also produces more reasoned statements like the one above from LH. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: sledge Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:34 PM RO1SIN asks If. Why don't you ask Sharon, he might be lurking on the forum somewhere. The question in itself is trite, how can anyone on this forum have the answer, unless of course a few members of the knesset are also signed in. The positive side of the question is that it encourages some debate on this issue. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:32 PM There will always be horrifying personal accounts from both sides of any given military conflict to enflame the emotions of people who have already made their mind up as to who the "bad guys" are. The more important consideration is...who is the dominant power on the scene? In their hands lies the greater opportunity to effect a positive resolution, because they have the power to do so. Who holds greater killing force and can wield it more effectively? And how can someone persuade both sides to show restraint and stop seeking further vengeance? An aggressor seldom sees the need to cease aggression when he is winning. History has shown that dominant powers never admit to committing terrorism (although they practice it routinely) but they reserve it as a label for the less powerful forces with whom they are fighting....particularly if those forces are "unofficial" (not in a national uniform). This situation lasts as long as a dominant power (like Nazi Germany, for instance...or Serbia...or Turkey...or Japan...or...) is undefeated and still in command of the situation. Upon its irrevocable defeat, however, the tables are finally turned, and the leaders of the formerly dominant power find themselves being accused of crimes against humanity. For this, as well as even more pressing reasons, the Israelis must pray that they never go down to a serious defeat or they will find the shoe on the other foot... I have stated repeatedly, as I think you all know, that both Israel and the Palestinians have used terrorism on each other over and over again, and are continuing to do so. Each does it in the manner that they think is most workable and effective, given the resources each has to work with. To ignore this, and to fulminate against one side only is to be blind...but I will say this: my sympathy is less with the side which has the far greater firepower under a single, unified command...because that side is in a position to make real and effective moves toward peace...if they only have the will to do so. The will is simply not there, at the top levels where it is needed. The only will there is the will to seek revenge, to punish, and to triumph. The Romans saw no reason to negotiate with the Jews when they crushed the Jewish rebellion and destroyed Jerusalem either. He who has the power to win decisively has little inclination to offer favours to his opponents...despite his protestations of nobility, humanity, etc....and he refers to those opponents as "barbarians", "rebels", "terrorists", "bandits", and other convenient labels of that sort, in order to justify wiping them out or conquering them. There is a deep unthinking hatred being expressed on both sides in the Middle East, and a deep sense of moral superiority as well...two blind men, fighting in a pit of their own creation, both accusing the other of being...blind. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: tremodt Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:20 PM I stand on my original question If and i said IF it is found out will they be tried |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:43 PM I hardly think that ALL the badly wounded were buried in the rubble and that only the slightly wounded were outside the buildings. In my experience it would be more likely to be the other way 'round. But that's only an opinion and not based on the hard facts that were obviously available to Professor Pounder. But wait; upon re-reading the article I find that he says; ""We draw the conclusion that they were allowed to die where they were," Professor Pounder said." That sounds like an opinion to me, based on what he expected to find instead of what he found. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:31 PM Israeli soldiers charged with committing "war crimes"???? Shocking! Unconscionable! Blatant anti-semitism!!! Gross insensitiveness to all ancestors of the survivors and victims of the Holocaust! Soon they will be charging Bugs Bunny with stealing carrots...and...and William Shatner with bad acting!!! WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?????? We must stamp out and destroy all those responsible for these evil assertions, obliterate them from the face of the planet! No action, however brutal, can be wrong when it is used to defeat EVIL INCARNATE!!! When can I enlist in the heroic Israeli forces, join up, and do my bit for freedom and justice? :-( - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM how could they get to the hospital if they were buried in the rubble? What bothers me the most in all of this is what I can only perceive as sadistic behavior in their military...and once that gets in, it is very very hard to weed out. And it would be nevertheless be stopped if that was the desire of the high command. The highest command, who I believe is possibly sadistic himself. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:05 PM This from the Wall Street Journal: "Amnesty International says it stands for human rights, presumably including the right to due process. And yet here's what passes for "evidence" when Amnesty is trying to convict Jews of war crimes: Professor Derrick Pounder, a forensic pathologist at Dundee University, visited Jenin hospital on behalf of Amnesty to examine some of the bodies that had been recovered. But what surprised him most was the absence of severely injured patients, since the hospital is less than a kilometre from the camp. "In a conflict of this type in a densely populated are, where the Israeli army lost a substantial number of men, it is inconceivable that there were not also large numbers of severely injured," he said. Normally, he would have expected to find three people severely injured for every one killed. Even if one accepts the Israeli claim that "only" 40 Palestinians died, there ought to be another 120 lying badly wounded, in hospital. But they are nowhere to be found. "We draw the conclusion that they were allowed to die where they were," Professor Pounder said. Back in Jenin, the Jerusalem Post reports on a Palestinian effort to fabricate evidence: One camp resident wanted me to stage a photograph. He pulled me into a home on the perimeter of the destruction. The front of the house was peeled away like a thin veneer. The floor was buckled, and the few pictures that remained on the walls were tilted at a distressing angle. But then the man lay face down on a mattress, splayed out his arms, and closed his eyes. When I didn't take his picture he looked up at me and said, "You take picture now." I declined.
The guys at Reuters even attempt to use Palestinian atrocities against the Jews. A dispatch titled "Israel Rejects U.N. Jenin Probe" is accompanied by a photo showing a body being dragged through the street. There's no caption, so readers would naturally assume the photo is from Jenin, but in fact it is from Hebron, and it depicts an Arab "collaborator" who was lynched by his fellow Arabs." troll
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: DougR Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:47 AM No Carol, I would not consider a story taken from an Israeli newspaper or propaganda organ unbiased. Geeze! It seems to me, after reading the posts you and troll made today that if anyone has a closed mind, Carol, me dear, 'tis thee! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:52 AM "I suspect that kind of denial is what made it possible for someone like Hitler to accomplish what he did." Please quote my statement where I have denied that the Israeli Government is also at fault. I don't think those people hate Israel more than they love their children. People who love their children don't teach them that it's cool to be a suicide bomber. I repeat, there has been film on the news showing masked Hamas members showing little kids how to put on a belt of explosives. Mrs. Arafat- taking a break from shopping in Paris- stated that if she had a son, she would be proud if he were a suicide bomber. I don't know how you feel about it Carol, but, to me at least, this does not show love for your children. "maybe they're just trying to give their kids inevitable deaths some purpose in the hopes that maybe someone's kids in the future will be able to have a better life." And maybe they hate the Jews more than they love their kids. My mind is not a closed book, but it takes more than a few knee-jerk stories to convince me of anyones nobility of heart and purity of spirit. Or the lack thereof. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: sledge Date: 25 Apr 02 - 10:39 AM Carols latest posts are pretty harsh indeed and if the content is true Israel needs to clean up its act and those responsible must see the inside of a court, but this sort of things works both ways. Little has been said about the three palestinians who were accused of being Informers for the Israeli forces, two days a go they were dragged into the street and murdered by their own people, the bodies then hung from pylons for all to see, and for those of you who didn't had access to uncensored tv /press pictures, it was very ugly, Will those killers be bought to justice. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: From Neta Golan, an Israeli Jew From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:22 AM Muhammad Daud's Killer
Note: Neta told this story on Flashpoints Radio, Jan 2, 2002 see: http://www.flashpoints.net/index-2002-01-01to03.html#neta for the full text and pictures, there you can click on the "14:30" mark for the audio accompaniment
Dear Bat Shalom Friends and Allies-
We are sending you a report from activist Neta Golan. It is as harsh as only truth can be, and it is revelatory. It is why we do the resistance work that we do, thousands of Israeli women who continue to assert our uncompromising truth - that occupation is wrong, occupation is terror, occupation must end. Terry
I had spent the day with the villagers of Deir Istiya in which we planted trees on land coveted by the settlement of Yakir. I was on my way home. Two soldiers recognized me and asked in Hebrew:" Neta how are you?" To them I was a novelty. "You know who I'm talking to?" One of them told a friend that phoned his cell phone "Neta from Peace Now" ( I am not from Peace Now but thats as far left as they could fathom).
We talked. At one point one of the soldiers told me: "when I see a terrorist laying on the ground in his own blood it gives me an appetite". He hesitated before continuing. He wanted to reveal to me something he was proud of. "There was a time when someone in Hares village picked up a huge bolder to throw at me. Do you know what I did?" He asked.
I knew. "You killed him." "That's right" he smiled, self-satisfied.
I know the two children and the young father who where murdered in Hares in the last fifteen months by Israeli soldiers so I asked him when it happened, On what day? By his answer, I realized the soldier in front of me was the murderer of my friend Muhammad Daud.
- "Let me tell you who you killed" I said. - "I don't care." - "I know you don't but I want you to know who you killed. His name was Muhammad Daud and he was fifteen years old. He was retarded and I loved him very much..."
I told him every thing I could think of about Mohammad and about his family. He didn't want to hear it. "I know where he was standing" I said. "I saw his blood on the ground. There is no way he could have thrown a stone at you from so far away, let alone a boulder."
- "You weren't there." He was screaming now. - "OK. You were there. So you tell me. How far do you think he could have thrown that "boulder"? Three meters? Ten meters? Lets just imagine that it was humanly possible to throw it a hundred meters. You were over three hundred meters away. - " You weren't there. " - "That's right, I wasn't there. You were there. So you tell me, how far away were you when you murdered him?"
He kept trying to stop me, but I wouldn't stop. It was all I could do. And the fact that he didn't want to hear it was the only indication that maybe somewhere deep inside there is a piece of humanity still intact in this boy.
After they walked away I was lucky to have friends with me who held me as I wept. Meeting his killer reopened the wound of losing my friend, a wound that never healed. I realized that if any man was evil, the soldier I just spoke to was, and yet he was a boy, an ignorant and stupid boy who never should have been given any power. Who never should have stepped foot in any village. Who never should have had a gun.
Young Soldiers, many of them like Muhammad's Killer control every Aspect of the lives of millions of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Ignorant youth like these have the power of life and death over Palestinian elders and children alike.
This cannot continue. To stop this injustice we need help. Help us. In solidarity, Neta Golan
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 09:19 AM Neta Golan, of the Israeli human rights group, Bat Shalom
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:02 AM Amnesty International |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 04:43 AM But you know, if you blow up old women and children, you've got to expect a little flack from the survivors
Yeah? How about when the people who are blown up are Palestinians and the survivors are Palestinians? Then, too? That one cuts both ways.
I guess you've already made up your mind, troll, and no amount of new information is going to change that.
I suspect that kind of denial is what made it possible for someone like Hitler to accomplish what he did. I bet a lot of otherwise well meaning people just couldn't believe their government, or the government of a civilized country, could do such things. So they didn't believe it, and they didn't do anything about it. I guess we'll know if those stories are fabrications or not if there are some actual people (not just Palestinians, who clearly don't have full human being status), who will stand behind them, maybe some people from places like the US, with names that don't sound Arabic.
I don't think those people hate Israel more than they love their children. I think they want their children to be able to live like human beings, and they know it's not going to be possible as long as people like Sharon are running the show. I'm betting they just feel like they've got nothing to lose, and no hope for a better future for their children. And when people lose hope, they do some crazy things. Besides, if there's any truth to that article by Christopher Hedges, maybe they figure the Israelis are just going to kill their kids eventually anyway, so maybe they're just trying to give their kids inevitable deaths some purpose in the hopes that maybe someone's kids in the future will be able to have a better life.
And the hate thing goes both ways. This from Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef... It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones. May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arabs' heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them, and cause them to be vanquished and cause them to be cast from the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:09 AM Truly some horrible stories, but I would hardly expect anything else from the Palestine Monitor. They certainly aren't going to print stories that portray Israel in a good light, now are they? But you know, if you blow up old women and children, you've got to expect a little flack from the survivors. BTW, have you seen the stories and films about Hamas teaching kindergarten kids how to be suicide bombers? They hate Israel more than they love their children and THAT"S sad. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:38 AM Eyewitnesses in Jenin from all over the world. (Not just Palestinians, for those who have an inherent difficulty with believing Palestinians.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 02:34 AM Dennis Bernstein |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:57 AM If you are going to criticize one side, you must , at the very least, explain what they are doing that is so wrong and that automatically tells the other sides story. At least that's how it was when I was in journalism but perhaps things have changed. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:29 AM They sure looked queasy about it to me. I didn't see any criticism of Israel in the mainstream news until large numbers of Arab Americans complained about how conspicuous it was in its absence. And then, when they did start including it, they made a lot of apologies for it. I would think that the Palestinian side of the story is whatever is being experienced by the Palestinians, and not the Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:17 AM Funny thing. They didn't seem the least bit queasy these last few weeks about being critical of Israel. But I suppose that there is a difference between criticizing Israeli policy and " publishing the Palestinians' side of the story ". Although I'm not quite sure what the difference is, I'm sure that someone will enlighten me. troll
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:00 AM I think it's probably pretty safe to say that the mainstream media has been queasy, at the very least, about publishing the Palestinians' side of the story out of fear of accusations of anti-semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: Troll Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:49 AM I read Hedges story. I was surprised that none of the "mainstream" media picked it up. about the only places I saw any mention of it was in passing in other articles in sources like the Islamic Republic Wire and the Electronic Intifada. I would have expected to see the news full of such a sensational piece but I did not so I don't know how much credence to give it. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM Christopher Hedges' article appeared in Harper's magazine. I wanted to find the original article in Harper's by Mr. Hedges, but my search skills are not that advanced. However, to address your comment, would you automatically accept an article from an Israeli news source as being unbiased? If so, why would you do that but automatically dismiss one from a Palestinian source? No bigotry toward Palestinians, I'm sure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: DougR Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:34 PM Carol C: You offer "The Palestine Monitor" as a non-biased source of informatiion in rebuttal to robomatic's post? You must be kidding! You are, aren't you? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israeli soldiers charged with war crime From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:27 PM Taking care of business |