BS: Can't Control Guns!

Subject: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,X-Ed
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 11:30 AM

Gee whiz, all that gun control they gotz in Europe still can't stop the insanity.

Subject: RE: Can't Control Guns!
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:36 PM

I wondered what had prompted this comment, so I checked the ABC News website and found this article about a school shooting in Germany: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/germany020426_school.html


SCHOOL TRAGEDY
18 Killed in German School Shooting, 6 Others Injured, Police Say

B O N N, Germany, April 26 — Eighteen people were killed in a high school in the German city of Erfurt today when an armed former pupil stormed into the building and opened fire in Germany's worst school shooting incident. Six others were also injured in the rampage, according to the police.

The drama began this morning at around 11 a.m. local time when an expelled student stormed into Gutenberg High School and opened fire. Police commandos rushed to the scene in an attempt to free students trapped inside the building.

The 19-year-old gunman killed himself, Erfurt police chief Manfred Grube told a news conference today, saying the situation "was over." "He took his own life, apparently when he saw that there was no way out for him," Grube said.

But the ordeal shook the nation as local television stations broadcast an image of a sign reading "Help" in German from a school window as the drama unfurled.

Police initially said two gunmen were involved in the shooting, but later clarified that there was only one assailant involved. Early reports indicated the dead included three students, a police officer and 13 adults, several of whom were believed to be teachers, police sources said.

The school killings came just days after the third anniversary of the Columbine High School killings in Colorado. Thirteen people died in the April 20, 1999, massacre.

Local media carried reports of distraught witnesses who said they saw a man dressed all in black roaming the hallways with a gun. "I heard shooting and thought it was a joke," 13-year-old Melanie Steinbrueck, told the Associated Press, chocking back tears. "But then I saw a teacher dead in the hallway in front of Room 209 and a gunman in black carrying a weapon."

"The guy was dressed all in black — gloves, cap, everything was black," Juliane Blank, 13, told the Associated Press. "He must have opened the door without being heard and forced his way into the classroom." "We ran out into the hallways. We just wanted to get out," she said.

Reports of the incident throughout the day were confused and local radio cited a pupil as saying that a fellow pupil pulled a gun as he was about to sit a math exam, but the report remains unconfirmed.

As distraught parents rushed to the scene, a police official with a megaphone urged parents to register their children's names before leaving the scene. Several teenage students were being treated for shock in local hospitals, medical officials said.

Groups of dazed and shocked students huddled in the street crying and calling their friends and family on mobile phones. A local courtroom has been set up as a meeting point for parents and children, German media reported.

Today's attack was the second in two months. In February, a 22-year-old German who had recently lost his job shot his old high school's principal in a school outside Munich before blowing himself up.

Germany has strict gun control laws, but experts say illegal weapons from eastern Europe are available across the country.

Subject: RE: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:42 PM

Yes, a bit of proof that gun control is ineffective.

What I'm interested, however, is opinions on why anyone would be driven to this.

Subject: RE: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:59 PM

Because they get recognised and made famous on TV..??? Oh yeah if they dont shoot themselves they dont get punished either... One word CONSEQUENCE... why dont the police just shoot these little sick bastards and make an example of them??? That others may live...

Subject: RE: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 10:39 PM

I fail to see how anticipating being 'famous' is a plus when you're DEAD. I agree with Guest/Amy; we need to learn what drives people to the point where that is all they can think to do.

It is interesting to me, however, that no one here is saying, as they almost certainly would if this tragedy had occurred in the US, that it's a direct result of a violent heritage and the availability of guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: RichM
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 06:35 AM

Please, don't turn this into a vindication of american rights to own firearms. That particular sacred cow has been discussed here many times, without resolution.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM

Remember when it was public policy NOT to publicize terrorist acts? I wonder sometimes what would have happened it school shootings had been treated that way. Not that they could or should have been, just, what if?

A young lady who very-recently moved to an area where things are very dangerous (pick any world hotspot) wrote to her mother, "Mommie, please, only watch the news once each week, not every day." Maybe when people have so much going on in their lives that they can't get too much news aimed at them, they gain ways of living more positively in the world. In our family, it fell to me to watch 9/11 coverage and get summaries to give Hardi, while Hardi was too busy helping people DEAL with it to see any of the coverage except one night's televised summary film of the planes hitting the buildings. I have a lot of accumulated reactions, while he is free of these and can focus on other stuff. We balance each other out that way.

Just a thought.

Never mind violent movies-- songs-- TV show-- cartoons--

Too damn much NEWS?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM

Well, we don't know why the student did the killing. He was from the Eastern (depressed) part of Germany, and was expelled from school. It sounds like he felt that his life was over, and wanted to get even with his teachers. There are crimes that look like they were motivated by a wish for noteriety; this isn't one of them.

He had weapons (a pump action shotgun) that German law did not permit him to have. So the moral seems to be, there is a black market for weapons, a result of open borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 06:51 PM

Like I said, it's mind set, not guns that must be dealt with.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 07:14 PM

It is an unfortunate fact that "Gun control" has been taken to an excess in Britain.
The 'law abiding' cannot have guns. (The British Olympic team could usually win an event or two in the past, but "Gun Clubs" are now illegal)
Unfortunately, the laws brought in deny citizens of "good standing" the right to own (or hold) guns. This has no effect on the criminal community who hold illegally purchased guns, which would never have been registered, even under the old system.
The result is that the only people who hold guns are those who Will misuse them.

If anyone can explain the logic in this, I would be grateful (and amazed)

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 07:36 PM

OK..........here we go again. Now suppose this young man didn't have the shotgun available, so instead he went and got some fertilizer and kerosene, and used to easily available information and blew up the school. Would that have been different because it wasn't a gun? And does the fact that the gun was illegally obtained have a bearing? The fact is that none of this stuff is an argument for against gun control, except for those whose agenda it is to get rid of them. It is a compelling argument for dealing with the hopelessness of the young in a world that seems to be losing its compassion for them at a breakneck speed. Instead of focusing on the tools, focus on the reason for using them. Find the answer and you won't have Palestinian teens blowing themselves up, German kids killing schoolmates and teachers, and Colorado teens slaughtering indiscriminately.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM

The school massacre in Dunblane was carried out by someone who quite legally owned the guns with which he murdered 16 small children and their teacher.

Strict gun laws don't remove all the risks, but they reduce them in some respects, and don't increase them in any rspect, and it's what the overwhelming majority of people in the UK want. That's good enough for me. Once the people who want to relax the gun laws can persuade most people to agree with them, they can get the law changed again. (But I wouldn't hold my breath if I were them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 08:07 PM

McG: I don't agree that "the overwhelming majority of people in the UK want stricter gun laws". I haven't seen any polls on this, but I doubt you have either.
If you meant to say that "If! the overwhelming majority...." Then fine, but an overwhelming majority would probably stop fox hunting, but re-introduce the death penalty.
Being in 'the majority' of the British opinion does not, necessarily, make an opinion right.
Nothing personal!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 08:25 PM

Most New Brunswickers are sad that one of our natives died in Texas a couple of days ago. She was a nurse (many NB nurses are recruited by Texas because NB nurses are sought after by many jurisdictions due to their high calibre of training and Texas has the best deal going) and she was stabbed in the throat by a stalker.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 08:37 PM

Yep. Let's ban knives too. While we're at it, we might as well ban baseball bats because one could certainly be used as a weapon ...and on and on.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:07 PM

More specifically Toadfrog, this incident took place in that part of Germany where there was no unemployment until the wall came down. Where they looked on the liberated west as Utopia, only to discover it was a sick joke. Now they've got massive unemployment, grinding poverty and rich kids flaunting ill-gained wealth under their noses.

That said, the reason in the present outrage seems to be more to do with a personal hang-up than any social iniquity. But Ebbie, whatever the reason, the availability of guns has got everything to do with it.

There may be legal constraints on ownership this side of the duckpond, but they are hard to apply, with AK47s and the rest flooding in from points east. The land borders are a big factor - there are proportionately many more guns in middle Europe than there ever were in Ireland at the height of the troubles. (Had there been more guns in Ireland, many more people would have died. I get the impression that some contributors in this thread would think that was a reasonable trade-off for the right to bear arms.)

Mick, my issue is not with gun control but gun production. And here I am as disgusted with the UK as with the USA. We flood the world with arms and couldn't care less where they finish up. Where they start is bad enough - Indonesia during its assault on East Timor, for instance, Iraq in its spat with Iran and the Kurds. Even the Saudi dictatorship (Uncle Sam drew the line at that one.) Not to mention arming all the countries, on all sides, that got involved in fighting over the remains of the DRC (Congo). In British Aerospace (BAe Systems - the side-arms to missiles outfit) we have the the world's biggest arms supplier. All with a government that promised an ethical foreign policy.

Watch news footage from Sierra Leone, Afghanistan or any other of the poorest countries on earth (OK, not you WYSIWYG). The kids may be starving, but they're not short on phenomenal firepower. We live in a world where death is easy, and Britain and the USA have led the way in creating it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:15 PM

A bunch of innocent people have been killed in school in Germany.

I think RichM's plea to leave out the issue of gun control in other countries, on this thread anyway, makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:26 PM

Think about this. When you are driving down the highways of the USA, 1 in 50 drivers is drunk. There is no constitutional right to drive a car, yet, it is not unusual for a repeat offender to be charged 15 times or more with OUI. They are given probation after probation until they kill someone, then by God, the state really gets tough on them, 5 to 7 years! Why do we put up with that insanity? A man here in Portland was arrested for carrying a concealed gun, the fine was considerably less than another man who had an overloaded truck.Ande, whatever you do, dont shoot a moose out of season! Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:29 PM

Hear, hear McGrath

I for one am very pleased that the UK has strong gun laws.

Aplologies, Kevin, for quoting you without permission, but I will anyway:

Strict gun laws don't remove all the risks, but they reduce them in some respects, and don't increase them in any respect

Quad Erat Demun - bloody - strandum

Only a fool would think otherwise

Shame that we've got America streaming with them....

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 09:34 PM

What is OUI, please

We're not all shit head americans you know

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 02 - 10:08 PM

You have to keep in mind that in a world of several billion people chances are that now and then someone will go over the edge and kill a bunch of people.

Things like that happened in medieval times too, and things like that happen in out-of-the-way places sometimes now, and you don't even hear about it on the news.

If it happens in the USA, Canada, or Germany though...you WILL hear about it on the news. Big time.

The news is entertainment, don't forget. They survive by hunting down and milking exciting stories for all they are worth, and nothing is more exciting than violent death.

Did they bother to tell you today about the 4 billion people who spent their day peacefully engaged in ordinary activities and didn't hurt anyone? Ummm...nope! Who would tune in for that? It doesn't sell product.

Life will never be entirely safe. No set of laws anyone can concoct will ever make it so. An unexpected tragedy just happened in Germany. Today people are excited about it. 2 weeks from now, most of them will be excited about something else, but the essential problems of Life will still be there.

What does all this have to do with gun control? Nothing, in my opinion. You can control yourself (that's your job), but you can't control Life. Matter of fact, that's one of the things that makes life worth living...no one can control it. Some people sure as hell would like to, though...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 01:53 AM

I think, rude guest, that Kendall probably meant DUI, which means driving under the influence. Typos happen you know.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 02:30 AM

No one seems to have picked up on the connection with schools. These are institutions, which young folk are forced to attend and may suit some people, but where people who do not feel that they fit are daily faced with rejection and bullying.

If we are honest, can we honestly say that at some brief moment during our schooldays, we did not plot some nasty 'revenge' on our school, teachers or classmates?

To most of us, the thought of it is as far as it ever goes. But along with sensible measures to ensure that the actual means of destroying people and buildings, it would be surely a good idea to look at the institutions and find ways of reducing the personal resentments that are really the cause of these terrible events.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:15 AM

The major difference between the dangers of easily available guns and ownership of cars, baseball bats, etc. is that, given that they can be dangerous and are sometimes used as weapons, is the fact that the purpose of baseball bats is to hit baseballs, and the purpose of cars are to be mobile, and on and on. Of course it would be draconian and foolish to ban them. But the purpose of handguns and assault rifles is to kill. That's it. That's what, for me, makes the "logical extension" argument such as case of apples and oranges. There will be outlaws who have guns, and exasperating that situation are discrepancies in gun laws from state to state and country to country. But on the whole, I believe we're safer with gun control. The worst situation is when criminals have access to firepower that is superior to police firepower. We just need to somehow get away from being such a gun-laden and gun-fascinated society. A society where guns sometimes illegally get into the hands of the wrong people is safer than one where guns get into the hands of law-abiding citizens who might become criminals (someone goes postal, road rage, crimes of passion, etc.) AND where guns illegally get into the hands of people who intend to use them for crimes. Doug, I agree with you on some issues, and disagree with you on others. I greatly respect you and your opinions, but sharply differ on this one. Would you concede that an assault rifle or handgun in the hands of someone who intends to use them for crime can cause much more mayhem than someone who uses a baseball bat for the same purpose? (the obvious exception would be in an airplane, a very special situation, as we all know what people armed with box cutters did). I also totally agree with Fionn's point about gun production.

chanteyranger (who rarely weighs in on political threads but feels too strongly about this one)

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 06:19 AM

For the benefit of any NON American shit heads, O.U.I. is operating under the influence. The context in which it was used should have told anyone with more than a teaspoon full of brains what it meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 08:06 AM

Hey hey now kids, it's precisely this build-up of anger which causes, in extremis, the kind of incident that started this thread! I'm not American and I'm definitely not a shit-head (never done any in my life), but I've never heard the term 'Operating Under the Influence', it isn't a phrase we use here in the UK. We talk about being 'Over The Limit'. It was just someone misunderstanding, no need to stress!

Seems strange that a thread bemoaning the anger and violence that's in the world itself creates this anger.

Can we talk about music. As the guy said, 'Music calms the savage beast'(or was it breast?). Thought that's what Mudcat's here for?

Love, SJ

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 08:25 AM

Just for the record, from today's Observer, I gather that under the German "strict gun control laws" the boy who did the killing was legally in possession of two short barrelled guns, and two long-barrelled guns, including a pump action shotgun. "He learnt to use them partly at the local police shooting association, of which he was a member."

The gun he actually used to do the killing was a pistol. He only to have been extremely methodical, and to have fired only 40 bullets in the course of the massacre. He had another 500 bullets with him.

Personally I'd sooner take my chances with a killer armed with a baseball bat.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 08:43 AM

A simple, "What does OUI mean"? would have brought a civil answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 09:44 AM

Cars are too dangerous. Too many people drive drunk or carelessly. Too many innocent people die. When are we going to wise up and ban them?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 09:55 AM

OUI??? Isn;t that a magazine?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 01:23 PM

This thread started off with the rather misconceived idea that the gun control laws in Germany are a lot stricter than they actually are.

I still think RichM was right and that it'd be better to avoid getting sucked into the stuff about gun controls in America. Once that starts than it tends to take over, and I'm sure there are issues relating to the circumstances of this massacre that deserve not to be sidelined.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 02:30 PM

Well, actually, banning cars as they presently exist (internal combustion engine cars, that is) would be an excellent idea. They are noisy, polluting energy-wasters. We could have long since replaced them with non-polluting vehicles...except for the oil industry and its all-powerful lobby.

So there's thread drift for you...

I think it's a distinct possibility that fossil fuels are presently doing more harm to people and the planet than guns...but not in such a dramatically obvious way, of course...it's more insidious than that.

kendall - "NON-American shitheads"? Just what are you suggesting, sir??? :-)

Shambles - Your point about schools is well taken! I spent many an hour fantasizing about blowing up my entire school and its student body with an atomic bomb (a small one...adequate to completely obliterating the school, but not necessarily the rest of the town). I utterly hated that place. I was there under duress, against my will, against every instinct in my body. I was subjected to bullying and harassment by people whom I would have avoided if not forced to be there by parents and society. I was bored to death with information of which 90% or more has proven to be completely useless in my adult life, and I was already educating myself better at home than they were doing for me in school anyway! School was just one long miserable purgatory, verging on Hell. I am never surprised when these violent incidents happen. Unlike me, some people do not stop at merely fantasizing violence...they carry it out.

Most schools, as far as I am concerned, are ridiculous places, oppressive institutions, and the students are their prisoners.

My apologies to teachers who may be offended by my views...I actually really liked most of my teachers back then...it was the institution, with all its silly rules and indoctrination, which I did not like...and the bullying students!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 02:33 PM

Chanty, I wouldn't like to see anyone who is bent on committing a crime armed with anything.

I see nothing wrong with law abiding citizens owning a gun though.

Kendall: here I go and try to be a good doobie and help you out, and you go and lump me in with those "without a teaspoonful full of brains!" I never heard O.U.I. used that way. Out west we call it D.U.I.

You hurt my feelings. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:26 PM

My apologies to all who didn't understand OUI. LH, that remark was directed right at Guest, and no one else. It was a bit dry to be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:42 PM

kendall - Yeah...I know...just kidding around.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 03:49 PM

"I see nothing wrong with law abiding citizens owning a gun though."

Robert Steinhauser was a law-abiding citizen, until he took his legally owned guns into school and shot all those people.

From the accounts I've read it seems he was living out some weird fantasy, dressed up in costume as some kind of Ninja. The problem being that the lethal toys he needed to turn the fantasy into reality were there at hand for him in a country where there are said to be around 20 million guns in private hands.

What all this reminds me of is Lyndsey Anderson's film "If".

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 04:36 PM

Little Hawk, are you sure that these sort of outrages occurred in mediaeval times? I'm not so sure they did, and I'd be surprised if they do now among those few remaining tribes that are privileged to remain "uncivilised."

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 05:25 PM

Been reading Daniel Quinn, Fionn?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 06:56 PM

Of course they didn't have guns or compulsory schooling in mediaeval times.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 02:51 AM

Before someone reads into this that education is a bad thing, it is just the general method of teaching disparate talents, on mass, as if 'one size fits all', and if you don't fit, then it is your fault.

The added pressure of general certificates of education, without which the young are further removed from what is considered as 'success', is another important factor.

Also that to some extent, this early 'success' can be bought for some children by their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 04:21 AM

Did anyone notice that it was reported that this boy was reported as having attended "Satanist Rituals". More teen witch suicide?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 05:45 AM

Thread drift, I'm afraid, but LH: can you provide examples of these non-polluting vehicles that the oil-companies have suppressed? Are you sure you haven't been talking in the pub to one of those people who's cousin/friend/dentist invented a car that ran on water but who couldn't exploit his invention because of the oil companies (we've all met 'em, but never seen t omeet the cousin/friend/dentist)?

Please remember that electric- and hydrogen-powered vehicles are not non-polluting, they merely move the pollution back to the power-station.

I saw one of these "cars that runs on water" on the web a little while ago. You merely replace the spark-plugs with wave-guides from the magnetron from a domestic microwave-cooker, fill your tank with water and start up. The microwave vapourises the water in the cylinder and turns your gas-powered engine into a steam engine. Now that's so simple, why didn't I think of it? And it violates the first law of thermodynamics, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 07:01 AM

Yes, the guy owned the guns legally.
He went only for teachers. He went from room to room looking for teachers. Two pupils where killed when he shot through a closed door behind which he presumed teachers hiding.
And by the way (remembering another thread about guns), he wasn't stopped by the armed police, he was stopped by an unarmed teacher who did the completely unexpected and talked to him and called him by his name.

I wish you would have let the opportunity to quarrel once more about US-American gun laws pass by. But I knew you wouldn't resist the temptation to respond to the troll.

To each country her own craze: In Germany, a majority seems to think that an unalienable basic human right is violated if there is a speed limit (and control) on our motorways. 'Free speed' for 'free citizens' is the war cry of them. And yes, 'cars don't kill people, people kill people.' And 'only the good ones would keep a speed limit, the criminals never would' and 'you even can be killed by a bicycle'. And there are examples that violating a speed limit may even save human lifes (speeding an injured to a hospital).

How funny, that people from other countries don't seem to understand us. Can't they grasp that our very freedom is threatened by those who want to control our speed on the motorways? Since there are always those who will speed faster than allowed the following sentence has shown to be correct beyond any doubt:

You can't control speed. See?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:59 AM

I don't think that I was trolling- but perhaps. I was seeking input.

It just seemed strange to me that the thread had been posted for almost 12 hours and no one had said anything to the effect that the host country had brought it upon itself through its own violent history and suspect ownership policy- as I felt posters would have done had it happened in the USA.

And NO, I am not for gun ownership without limitation or restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Grab
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 11:26 AM

Re Nigel Parsons, if a Brit has a professional use for a shotgun or rifle (ie. pest control) then they're perfectly at liberty to own one and keep it at home (locked in a gun cabinet). If a Brit enjoys target shooting, they're perfectly at liberty to own a shotgun/rifle/handgun, so long as it's stored at their gun club with appropriate security.

What's not allowed is automatic weapons in any shape or form, or handguns stored at home, or any other guns stored at home if you don't have some professional use for them. The reason: most criminals get access to guns by robbing gun owners. They could rob the gun club, but a club has the resources to provide significantly better security.

Britain has the advantage though that we've got a physical border (water) between us and mainland Europe. In continental Europe, it's significantly easier to bring stuff over the borders, and guns are readily available in Eastern Europe.

Bottom line though, Europeans mostly believe in gun control. Anyone who _really_ wants a gun can get one, if they want it bad enough; the idea of gun control is just to stop every petty criminal from owning one. Most violent crimes don't make the paper, but there's many more ppl affected by these.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 12:54 PM

Ringer - Hey, how did you know I'd been talking to that guy "whose cousin/friend/dentist invented a car that ran on water but who couldn't exploit his invention because of the oil companies...etc..." :-)

Well no, actually, but it's my general impression that we are still using fossil fuels for financial reasons (big profits to established corporations), in spite of having a host of other ways we could have gone by now. I have so many different reasons for believing that that it would be enough to kick off another 50 separate threads...so let's just let it be, okay? I haven't the time for it today.

Fionn - Well, it's a mixed picture. There have always been horrible, violent incidents in the world...and yet at the same time, most people act peacefully most of the time when left to their own devices. It's a very subjective business how you look at it. I imagine you could make an equally plausible argument from either side of an issue such as gun control...and I'm sure we'll hear many of them. Medieval life, on the whole, was a lot dirtier, more violent, and more dangerous than life is now...so I'd say we're actually doing rather well, all things considered, despite the prevalence of guns.

Since I've known a good number of completely harmless people who owned guns and never hurt anyone with them, I don't mind people having the right to own guns. One's own direct experiences always colour one's perceptions, and I'm no exception to that.

I always liked guns since I was a kid, and owned various BB and pellet guns, simply so I could shoot at tin cans, toy soldiers, targets, etc. I was never in the least inclined to shoot at another human being (or an animal), and I never have...nor have I even fantasized doing so, although there were people I really hated when I was an adolescent. Even with those people, I did not fantasize shooting at them. I just don't seem to think that way.

I am always a bit nervous about people who have a keen desire to pass laws that force everyone else to be like them, simply because their way is supposedly better. I consider such an attitude to be dangerous, egocentric, and invasive...it's the little fascist, hiding inside the scared person, who wants to regulate the whole world so that it's safe...according to the way he sees it.

The world will never be safe. I accept that.

At the same time, I recognize that there need to be some laws and some restraints. It's a compromise. I see no reason why law-abiding people shouldn't own guns, but I do see why they shouldn't own machine guns, assault rifles, and hand grenades (in working order, that is). I see that people who have shown themselves not to be law abiding should not have the right to own guns.

Every social rule we concoct is a compromise between absolute freedom and some desired form of social order...it's when we can't agree on just exactly how far to compromise one way or the other that these endless debates arise.

I understand the legitimate concerns of both sides in the gun control debate, and I guess I stand about halfway between the 2 extremes of opinion on it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,Marksman
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 04:36 PM

I can't resist. If England is so much safer with strict gun control, how's your violent crime rate? I hear it's on the rise. Here in the US, in states where it is legal to carry concealed weapons, the violent crime rate is decreasing. Could it be that criminals, knowing that it is highly unlikely that their victom is armed, might have little reason not to commit violent crime? In my state, the little old lady might just be packing, so maybe she might better be left alone. In conclusion, I'll answer your initial question: Can't control guns? Don't focus on the target, focus on the front sight. Then you should be able to control it just fine, and hit what your aiming at.

Good shooting! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 06:05 PM

Wofgang, I like your speed limit analogy.

Both with cars and guns the problem is made worse by media that hype up the fantasy and load our heads with dreams about how we can be happy and free if we can only getr behind the wheel of a big flash car racing along, or how our problems can be solved by using a gun.

And for some of us the fantasy turns into action. More especially with cars.

I'm lucky. Cars get you from here to there and they're handy for carrying things. Convenient, but nothing like as much fun as trains and trams and so forth. Guns - I hate to be anywhere around them. And the modern ones especially are such ugly things to look at. I can just about imagine that someone might actually think that in certain situations a gun might make you safer. But the idea that someone might like them as objects, when they could get for example, a musical instrument instead. That's just strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 06:53 PM

Well, I like musical instruments quite a bit better. And I've owned a whole bunch of them. Does that help? When it comes to guns, I much prefer the traditional old-fashioned7 rifle with a polished wooden stock. I'm not attracted to handguns particularly...or military guns either.

It's not so strange when you consider the previous lives as either white man or Indian in which I carried a gun, since that was the normal and practical thing to do at the time, since you kind of needed one for daily survival...(oops! Forget that most of you don't believe in that stuff.) Having guns used to be an everyday fact of life just like gathering around a fire in the evening was. You get used to these things after awhile, and may develop some fondness for them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 07:43 PM

Having guns used to be an everyday fact of life just like gathering around a fire in the evening was.

"...used to be?"

LH, come to Vermont sometime. They both still are. No lie. (and one of the lowest per capita violent crime rates in the country).

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 07:50 PM

I also love guitars, but, I'd hate to tackle a burglar with one.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 09:53 PM

Ah, kendall, you gotta study Elvis's technique with a guitar then. He used to smash one over somebody's head at least once in some of those lousy movies he made...usually with some provocation, of course.

Let's hope they were cheap guitars, like Kent. :-)

Midchuck - Vermont sounds nice. I love sitting around a fire in the evening! Most people sit around a TV now. What a comedown! At Rolling Thunder's camp we used to gather round a fire every night, talk, drink coffee, play music...no radio, no TV, no electric lights. It was paradise. This was back in the late '70's and early '80's in Nevada.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:38 PM

Hey, since when did the National RIFLE Association (NRA) get out of gun safety and into a HANDGUN in every hand thing? Nevermind.

And even if they still have gun safety programs, how many folks are going to send their kids for training knowing the kids are going to be brainwashed be right wing extremists?

And how many folks REALLY believe that the Founding Fathers, when they penned the 2nd Ammendment, really could forsee a bunch of nutballs and kids with access to assault rifles and bad-ass hand guns? (Reread the wording...)

And, as much as I respect Little Hawk, the last century makes all the previous ones look like a Woodstock love fest.

Einstien said that insanity is "repeating a behavior expecting different results". We must break this downward cycle of win-loose, power come from the barrel of a gun thinking.

Vote Green.

Peace Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:57 PM

We'll be back in a moment, but first... Bobert, did you happen to see Ralph Nader on 'Politically Incorrect' the other night? The dynamics were interesting. There were a couple of Nader fans on the panel and one panelist who told him some of the things he had done wrong. Made Nader tell him, "I should've had you for my advisor." We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 12:30 AM

Well, hey, Bobert...I'm with ya there. I figure the Green Party is almost the only party left worth voting for. They haven't been bought out by the Big Boys yet. I also think Nader was the only real choice in the last US presidential election, but real choices don't have a dog's chance in hell of being elected in either the USA or Canada.

The last century was so terrible mainly because of the advanced weaponry that had become available...like aircraft, tanks, aerial bombing, poison gas, submarines, atom bombs, and so on...and because war became a global event, rather than just a regional or local one...again due to advanced technology, which has a faster and longer reach.

But...if you look into the things that were done openly by the Crusaders, the Spanish Inquisition, the religious wars in Europe, Attilla the Hun, etc...I think there is some indication that our basic sense of humanity and normal human rights has advanced quite a bit in the last 20 centuries.

When the Children of Israel, for example, went into the Middle East from Egypt they massacred entire local nations of people right down to the last man, woman, and child, and felt totally righteous and proud about doing it. That sort of thing wasn't all that unusual then. We have actually come a long way.

When the Nazis did the same type of thing in World War II, they did it much more slowly, by degrees, under a facade of legality, and with much greater procedural complexity....they went to considerable pains to keep the "Final Solution" absolutely secret from the German population and the world in general.

Now had they instead been doing it in the year 1200, for example, they would have done it openly and publicly with absolute relish, pride, and zeal, not supposing there was any need whatsoever for secrecy. Grotesque brutality and mass murder were entirely socially acceptable in 1200, except to those on the receiving end, of course.

I agree absolutely, however, that the problem now is we must break the cycle of win-lose, power from the barrel of a gun, etc...just as you said. That is the key. We need to cooperate as one Humanity, not compete and destroy each other and the natural world.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:31 AM

X-Ed was the one I meant with 'troll'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:20 AM

You can't necessarily take everything you read in the Bible literally, LH.

Though the genocidal stuff in the Old Testament is well worth keeping in mind, and it's scary in the context of a set up where settlers are using those parts of the Bible as a justification for claiming a right to particular territory in the Holy Land.

It's also very relevant to keep that stuff in mind, when you have people quote passages from the Koran as proof that Islam is a peculiarly warlike religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM

McGrath, there are millions - literally - of people in the US who insist that everything in the Bible should be taken literally. And a great number of politicians who go to great lengths not to piss them off. You aren't saying all those people are deluded? Are you? That would mean the US was full of crazies! Obviously out of the question!

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:18 AM

There were enough to elect George W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:37 AM

Kendall,.............you are my main man!!...........LOL.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:03 AM

At last! Kendall finally admits it! Bush won by a majority vote! The election WASN'T handed to him by the Supreme Court!!! And Mick evidently agrees!!!! Terrific! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:13 AM

They've got a referendum for President in Pakistan today that could give Bush some tips. Only one name on the ballot paper. No need to interfere with the recounts in an election like that...

I'd like to think - and I'm probably right - that most of those people have never actually read all the way through the Bible. If they have, and agree with every word, taken literally, God help us all. That is one dangerous book if you read it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:43 AM

LOL, Doug!

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Grab
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:56 AM

Re Marksman, quoting from this archived BBC story:-

"The Department of Justice report showed robbery, burglary and assaults per head of population in England and Wales were higher than in the US, though murder, rape and gun crime was less common."

Depends whether you'd rather be robbed or shot, I guess.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 12:27 PM

LOL! Lotta good humour on both sides of the political divide on this thread. Believe me, McGrath, there is a GREAT DEAL of the Bible I do not take literally.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM

As a follower of Christ (as opposed to being a "Christain"), I think Christains would be better off if they would spend a little more time in the New Testament learning the concepts of love and forgiveness and less time hunting thru the Old Testiment for passages that justify their greed and inhumanity.

And I'm sticking to the premise that the 20th century was the most violent in history, not only in numbers of folks killed or injured but also in the brutal manner in which they were killed or injured. And we're not off to a very good start this century either.

Peace Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:51 PM

Doug, no comment. sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:03 PM

Well, I guess you DON'T need a gun, nor do you have to be a troubled TEEN, nor do you need a JUMBO JET crashing into a building, nor does that coffe have to be from McDONALDS to burn you................Seriously, you gotta' read this one folks!!!

CLICK HERE; Another senseless airplane fatality

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:22 PM

That's an amazing story, Spaw. It sounds like something you would have concocted about Paw and Cletus and their close relatives, except for the fatality part.

One thing that has not been touched on yet in this thread is that you can theoretically kill another person with an iguana! It's not easy and the iguana doesn't enjoy it a bit, but it CAN be done. It was attempted recently in the Isle of Mann. I think the sale of iguanas should be very carefully regulated, if not stopped altogether.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:56 PM

Well Spaw - you've done it again. Made sense. You better watch out - could tarnish a fella's reputation.

GWB - Four more years -

Steve

TMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:20 PM

GWB... Say it out loud, it's really rather an appropriate sound. A bit like the traditional Scottish cry "Hughie!"

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:16 PM

Is there a constitutional right for assholes such as there to breed?

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:48 PM

".... pursuit of happiness." ? There it is, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:28 PM

Kendall: I was greatly surprised to read your capitulation, and must admit I was a bit surprised, but I know you never post anything without giving it a lot of thought, so I can understand why you have no further comment. But why the sigh?

I have witnesses!!! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:56 PM

You're a rascal, Doug. :-) I am thinking of offering you a free year's membership in the OAAOSD, despite your occasional veerings into rampant conservatism...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:26 PM

He's still a moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:38 PM

Now don't get nasty. Even if he was a moron, that's no obstacle to a membership in the OAAOSD (Orillia And Area Organisation of Sh*t Disturbers). In fact, it can sort of be seen as an asset thereto.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:39 PM

Kendall: Moron! I didn't vote for Gore! (ducks, puts arms over head to protect vital organ most affected by hard blows).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:44 AM

hahahha

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 01 May 02 - 11:35 AM

C'mon, Kendall, where's the big grin in that remark. Tell us you don't really mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Can't Control Guns!
From: kendall
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:37 PM

I only lie when I'm being paid to.

The fact is, As long as Mankind is ruled by fear and hatred, weapons will provide a measure of imagined security. Live with it.