I'm Sick of the Bigotry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 01 May 02 - 03:36 AM

Right on, katlaughing!

My point exactly about religion and politics threads. They go on and on and on and any "discussion" very soon gets lost, because each person who posts (just as in this thread) has their own firmly held opinion and is very unlikely to alter it in any way because of anything someone else might have to say.

Little Hawk, I don't mind a good debate, or a good argument. Most of these (including this one) are pointless; why waste the energy?

This is my last comment on this or any thread like it. And BTW, I DON'T read many of the religion threads, and I refuse to read ANY of the political threads. I find I'd much rather go read a good book or practice my concertina than participate in a Philosophy and Religion 101 project, thanks. Did enough of that in college, and didn't much care about or for it then.

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:42 AM

My daughters and I have always enjoyed Kevin Bacon, esp. in Footloose, Flatliners, and Diner.

Near as I can tell this is just another of those interminable "rehash" threads which seem to be taking over the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:35 AM

My son probably has some Jewish ancestry. He's a Mudcatter. One of his paternal great grandfathers was from Alsace Loraine and his name was an anglicized form of a Jewish name, with the first name of Ira.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:26 AM

I agree with you Little Hawk, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss subjects that are controversial. However, I think the anger here (at least for me) are the threads and comments that are intended solely to get under the skin of the folks around here. Using bigotry and hatred, trolls are more often than not successful in getting many of us (I've been guilty as well!) to respond and get into an argument. They don't really have an opinion on the subject, they just want to get things stirred up.

I am more than happy to agree to disagree on subjects that you and I disagree on (this one included), I just think that many of the issues we're discussing in this thread have to do with trolls who don't care nearly as much about the opinions they are stating, as they do about prodding people into reacting to their extreme statements.

Just a thought,
Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 02 - 01:19 AM

Sorry, Gargoyle. Message deleted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:57 AM

And what is so terrible about discussing subjects, like politics and religion, on which people frequently disagree? I will discuss any subject that interests me, and I expect to be disagreed with frequently, but I don't intend to hate, fear, or demonize those who do disagree with me. If I talk to them long enough, it becomes clear that they hold most of the same ideals I do, regardless of the fact that they may disagree with me vehemently about some political issue or another...and our disagreement arises out of our different backgrounds, not out of the fact that one of us is "bad" and the other is "good". This helps me learn not to judge others hastily (if at all), but instead get to know them better.

I think the habit of scrupulously avoiding controversial subjects is one based on laziness, inflexibility and FEAR, the same things bigotry is based on (right on, Bobert!). Just because someone disagrees with you does not ipso facto make him your ENEMY. It could on the contrary make him quite interesting, and enlarge your view of reality a bit. You want a place where everyone agrees? Well then, establish a police state, and just imprison or kill everyone who doesn't agree with your official version of reality. It's been done, folks...all in the name of "order".

As for the oft repeated cry that this is a folk and blues site...well, yes, it is.

I don't know about blues, but folk music has NEVER been afraid of taking on controversial subjects, and has generally been at the forefront of doing so.

If you are so disturbed by threads about politics or religion...then don't read them, for gosh sakes! Read some other thread instead. God knows, there isn't enough time in the day to read all the threads on this forum, is there?

I will add to that, however, that Jeri and Amos both have an excellent point in saying that our energy is better spent on discussing things we love than things we hate. No doubt about that. I think politics comes up because most of us love freedom, peace, and justice...and religion comes up because many of us love God or love Life itself and see it as a spiritual journey.

Plus, we love to talk... :-) That should be obvious by now.

Everything comes back to love. Love expressed or love denied, but it all begins with Love. When a child is born, that's plainly obvious. You can see it in the eyes of the parents. We all strive in the defense of what we love, and that's natural.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:52 AM

Well, I can't speak for you, DougR. I don't really know how many you're in. But I went over the threads that I'm currently in, and although I counted about 8, only three of them are contentious. But since I'm in those three a lot maybe it looks to you like I'm in a lot of threads. And here we are, hijacking this one! (btw. My last post was supposed to have a smiley face at the end.)

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:46 AM

Perhaps you're right, Carol. Could be.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:29 AM

You're right, DougR--Jerry Rassmussen, read her post and think about what you are defending--what ever nice qualities she may have, she has posted much more of this sort of thing, and by any measure, it is unacceptable--her language is enough to get here banned from many ISPs, and in a number of states, the language, coupled with the tone, is enough to qualify as "harrassment"--is it OK, because she is your friend?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: bflat
Date: 01 May 02 - 12:19 AM

Me too!

Ellen

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:13 PM

No way, DougR! I'm only on about five or six of the currently running threads. She must be talking about you!

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 11:05 PM

I have never ever heard of Kevin Bacon........

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Bigotry is founded in fear. In the words of Herbert Hoover of F.D.R., whoever is was, "All we have to fear is fear its self." Get over it. Talk with someone you might fear because of differences in race, origin or religious beliefs... today. Within all the major religions there is a common denominator of "caring" for others and for self. Armed with this, bigotry is just a lazy and/or scared man's excuse for not going up to to someone not like him and say, "Hey".

There is a resturant in my town that is owned by Pakistanis and since Sept 11 folks don't go there anymore. I do and I have gotten to know the folks there better than ever. The manager's father, who is still in Pakistan, is into gardening and as a gardener myself I have found a means to get beyond the programed bigotry that the media has attempted to force upon us. And I am that much richer.

Bobert

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:42 PM

Spaw, I do recall a book some time back called "Six Degrees of Separation" which put forth this theory.

I would really be bad at this game. I've watched very few Kevin Bacon movies and am not particularly fond of the ones I have seen.

Just a stick in the mud, I reckon. Thanks for the explanation!

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:36 PM

Hi Lin!

The small-world phenomenon formalizes the anecdotal notion that "you are only ever six 'degrees of separation' away from anybody else on the planet." Almost everyone is familiar with the sensation of running into a complete stranger at a party or in some public arena and, after a short conversation, discovering that they know somebody unexpected in common. "Well, it's a small-world!" they exclaim. The small-world phenomenon is a generalized version of this experience, the claim being that even when two people do not have a friend in common, only a short chain of intermediaries separates them.

The Kevin Bacon Game: Kevin Bacon is an actor best known for not being the star of many films. But a few years ago, Brett Tjaden—a computer scientist at the University of Virginia—catapulted Bacon to true international recognition with the claim that he was somehow at the center of the movie universe. This is how the game goes:

Think of an actor or actress.
If they have ever been in a film with Kevin Bacon, then they have a "Bacon Number" of one.
If they have never been in a film with Kevin Bacon but have been in a film with somebody else who has, then they have a Bacon Number of two, and so on.

The claim is that no one who has been in an American film, ever has a Bacon Number of greater than four. Elvis Presley, for example, has a Bacon Number of two. For real enthusiasts, Tjaden created a web site that provides the Bacon Number and shortest path to the great man for the most obscure of choices. In fact, Tjaden later fireproofed his claim by conducting an exhaustive survey of the Internet Movie Database, and determined that the highest finite Bacon Number (for any nationality) is eight. This may seem nothing more than a quirky fact about an already bizarre industry, but in fact it is a particularly clear example of a phenomenon that increasingly pervades our day-to-day existence: something known as the "small-world phenomenon."

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: DougR
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:32 PM

Er, ah, hmmm, McGrath, L.H., Carol ...I think Jeri might be referring to ...us.

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:24 PM

Gee, the things I miss from not watching TV.

Sorry Spaw, I don't know what the Kevin Bacon game is, but it's gotta be more fun than talking about subjects no one is ever going to agree on, don't you think?

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:22 PM

Yeah Jeri.....Cracks me up! I like people who can have a laugh at themselves....and in Bacon's case, even make a buck from doing so.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:19 PM

Spaw, have you seen that credit card commercial where Kevin Bacon hauls in a bunch of people to prove who he is?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:14 PM

Because we get tired of playing the Kevin Bacon Game.

Spaw---on a Kevin Bacon kick tonite

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:09 PM

And just why the hell are we discussing religion OR politics of any kind on a folk music and blues site?????

Lin

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 10:07 PM

Dear poster in anonymity: I've been on Mudcat three or four months now. In that time, I keep running across certain people in threads who I find enjoyable getting to know. Even if it's just cyber-know. McGrath has got to be at the top of the list, but there's a whole slug of people who immediately come to mind. People I really enjoy seeing in threads that I follow. Jeri is one of them. Other than the obvious appeal of her name, I find her comments positive and to the point. You could add Cflat, Deckman, Bobert, Katlaughing and many others... not an exhaustive list. The one person I have a lot of trouble with is named Guest. Let's hear it for Jeri!!

Jerry

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:47 PM

Nice one, Spaw... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Sick of Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:41 PM

And some of us are long past being fed up with Jeri's ranting and raving --notice that she is nearly always worse than the *many* that she complains about--she seems incapable of commenting without abusive language--and, for some reason, none of the "regulars" stand up to her, though they will jump on a GUEST who fails to tow the straight and narrow in a heartbeat--

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:24 PM

I must confess to being guilty...not, certainly, to being a bigot, but to responding to obvious trolls and sometimes to others that are acting in a trollish manner. As a sometimes historian, I often feel that I have to either correct clear errors or to provide balance to a one-sided perspective. However, I do my best, and pledge to try to do better, to get out of a discussion as soon as it becomes obvious that its only purpose is to feed someone's preconceived ideas or their bigotry...even if it is sometimes fun to feed a rotten chunk of something to a troll.

Mudcat is a great place to hang out, and what makes it so are all of the wonderful people that make it the community it is. Like all homes, however, you have to watch out for the termites in the baseboards. We all should remember that a thread dies in 24 hours if nobody responds to it (even if ANON.GUEST refreshes them occasionly if he/she/it needs a charge). Let's all try harder to curb our wit and consign them to the ash can of history.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:21 PM

Ah I dunno' Joe......I hate myself sometimes........Does that count?

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:19 PM

One catholicshopper thread wouldn't seem to be bigotry, but both came from the same person. TWO threads are an indication of a problem. I will admit that the people who run catholicshopper and the people who patronize the site must be idiots - but every religion has idiots. Now, it you want a better example of anti-Catholic bigotry, look at the message of a few days ago that lists "celibate Catholic priest" as an oxymoron. I have a number of friends who are priests, and most of them have struggled a lifetime to keep a promise of celibacy that they find quite meaningless - but they keep their promise, anyhow. for them, "celibate Catholic priest" is definitely NOT an oxymoron.
The anti-Catholicism here has been mild compared to the anti-Semitism, but it's there. And yes, there has been anti-Islamic bigotry, too - I didn't mention it because it didn't happen today. It's the anti-Semitism that has arisen here that really worries me - but there's all kinds of hatred expressed here, and I don't think it has a place at Mudcat. There is no room for hatred at Mudcat - no matter who the hatred is directed at.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:10 PM

Not so...my mother's dog is a gentile, and probably an atheist as well, I would guess, unless he thinks that he is god...which is a distinct possibility, judging from his general air of omnipotence.

Amos - That was an inspired post! Thank you for saying what you did, and saying it so eloquently. What you have posted is the plain truth which could and should unite us all. Bravo. We tend to forget the good side of people when we get caught up in these endless political wrangles.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:07 PM

That's a nice post, Amos.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Pseudolus
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:58 PM

Jeri,
I'm with ya. I agree with your sentiment for sure, but I do believe that there is much here to love. If there wasn't, it wouldn't bother you (and others) so much that it looks like it could be taken away by the constant trolls and flames. Tolls and flamers will start a fire, and will stoke it for a while but I truly believe that if they are ignored, eventually they will get tired of playing. Our responses are like oxygen to a fire, they can't live without it.

To Susan, it's because of the thread title that I did NOT post to the suicide thread to talk about my feelings. I suspect that a lot of folks ignored it because that is the way they have chosen to go. We're not being hypocritical, in fact, if we responded to the thread, then we would have been exactly that. There are a lot that totally agree and share your pet peeve, if not, I'll buy you a cheesecake...uh...wait a minute, don't I already owe you one? *BG*

So I would like to offer myself up as a sort of Dear Abby, but better. If you're feeling frustrated and need to vent...PM me!! Yell at me, call me names, tell me I have no right to be on the same planet with you. But then tell me you were just venting, that you really love me and we'll all feel better!!!! So whatdaya think????? Now I don't mean to make light of some very real frustrations here, I really don't but hey, some of you might really get some comfort from that kind of thing and if so...I'm here for ya!!!

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:54 PM

Well, let me say something about what I love, and in particular what I love about Jewish people. They love life, and I share that with them; they love teaching, and so do I. They love to dance, as I do, and they love to work hard to make something good happen, which I agree with. They love music that raiseth up the spirit, as I do; and they love to honor the past for what it has given us, as I also. The Jews love the brotherhood they share around the world, so strong that the homes of complete strangers are open to you without question when the need arises; and I honor any community that has such deep commitments. The Jews love the bringing of new children into the world and the celebration of their learning to be in and live in it, which I do with all my heart also.

As it happens, I also feel these things about the kind and honorable Muslims I have known, both here and in their own lands, and likewise the Greeks, Germans and French I have met and befriended.

So I am afraid there is something sad and corkscrewed about anyone so full of fear, and pain, and loss and doubt, that they would even begin to think about people in such broad categories as bad in any way; because it means he or she has lost the ability to see, and is swept away by a river of terror from within their own heart; and that is something to weep for, indeed.

A

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:05 PM

so your mother's dog is a jew? whats your point

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 08:02 PM

jeri, amen. another thing that has been irritating me are the folks who always have to say something....more to see their own words in print than anything else...and it shows up in all sorts of threads...

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:56 PM

Bravo Joe and most of the other posters, especially Jeri.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:51 PM

JERI,

By way of a comforting word to someone I like very much--

The music is still here, and the love of it, and the sharing of it. The threads... are the threads. Threads are not all of Mudcat. For instance, with the help of a few good people, I have been able to amass a huge amount of the music I love, recorded and in text form. I've had help with sources, software, using the software, stuff being sent to me as lovely surprises or good swaps-- and the music pours out of me, there is so much that has been poured IN. My life is richer and so, they tell me, are the lives of those who the music pours out on and through and beyond....

So-- I know the threads have been pretty yucky, I agree about that-- but the place is still the place, and music still runs through it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:16 PM

There's still an amazing amount of great stuff around. You can find songs you never knew existed, and songs that have only just come into existence, becausde of thye Mudcat; find out what songs you've known all your life are about; exchange all kinds of wrinkles about making music; hear stories about musicians on the road; listen to stories about what is happening in the lives of people you you have learnt to know and appreciate through the Mudcat; plug into information about things coming up on the TV, or concerts or festivals; swap CDs with other Mudcatters... and more.

On the other hand some of us like to talk about things other than music as well, and at times it can get heated, though I think we are collectively getting better at generating light rather than heat. And of course there are some pillocks who mess around trying to get a rise out of the rest of us, and some of them can be a bit unpleasant.

This glass is more than half full, and less than half empty.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:01 PM

Frank, excuse me, but I'm going to agree with you in a rather rude manner. No apology - I've just about had it.

We have threads on Afghanistan, Palestine and Israel, child molesters, hate crimes, politicians doing bad things, etc. - in short, every thing we loathe seems to be a favorite subject on Mudcat. I'm getting very sick of it, and I'm getting very sick of the SAME FUCKING PEOPLE REPLYING IN EACH FUCKING THREAD, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Not only that - a troll can post in a music thread, and folks go off on that tangent and completely ignore the original post, because they'd rather play with the trolls than stick to the subject or talk about anything POSITIVE.

This was once a wonderful place where friends talked about things they loved. Now it's become centered around what people are mad about or downright hate. People here may be wonderful humans in real life but those who can't manage to shut the fuck up once in a while have made this place pretty damned negative. It's like walking into a workshop at a folk festival and finding everyone shouting and throwing chairs at one another. You find a couple of people hiding in a corner who are still trying to play some music and find it's nearly impossible to get to them through all the mayhem.

It does no good to ignore the obvious flame threads, because the shit turns up everywhere these days.

I don't find very much here these days that makes my life more enjoyable, and I find a lot more that turns me off. It's not going to change because the people who thrive on the continuous debate and outright flames don't want it to - and that includes a large proportion, of Mudcatters or at least quite a few very prolific ones.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:55 PM

So am I, but you don't see me posting to that crapola do you?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:42 PM

Tom Lehrer sumed it up

Click Here

Gareth

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:26 PM

GUEST, perhaps you don't know this, but the Joe Offer and the Mudcat delete whole articles that are posted to the forum the way you've done because they feel that it's redundant to post the whole thing. They prefer if you just post a clicky.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:21 PM

A wave of Jew-bashing in Europe

BOSTON GLOBE

By Jeff Jacoby, 4/28/2002

HE ROCKS have been lifted all over Europe, and the snakes of Jew-hatred are slithering free.

In Belgium, thugs beat up the chief rabbi, kicking him in the face and calling him ''a dirty Jew.'' Two synagogues in Brussels were firebombed; a third, in Charleroi, was sprayed with automatic weapons fire.

In Britain, the cover of the New Statesman, a left-wing magazine, depicted a large Star of David stabbing the Union Jack. Oxford professor Tom Paulin, a noted poet, told an Egyptian interviewer that American Jews who move to the West Bank and Gaza ''should be shot dead.'' A Jewish yeshiva student reading the Psalms was stabbed 27 times on a London bus. Anti-Semitism, wrote a columnist in The Spectator, ''has become respectable ... at London dinner tables.'' She quoted one member of the House of Lords: ''The Jews have been asking for it and now, thank God, we can say what we think at last.''

In Italy, the daily paper La Stampa published a Page 1 cartoon: A tank emblazoned with a Jewish star points its gun at the baby Jesus, who pleads, ''Surely they don't want to kill me again?'' In Corriere Della Sera, another cartoon showed Jesus trapped in his tomb, unable to rise, because Ariel Sharon, with rifle in hand, is sitting on the sepulchre.

In Germany, a rabbinical student was beaten up in downtown Berlin and a grenade was thrown into a Jewish cemetery. Thousands of neo-Nazis held a rally, marching near a synagogue on the Jewish sabbath. Graffiti appeared on a synagogue in the western town of Herford: ''Six million were not enough.''

In Ukraine, skinheads attacked Jewish worshippers and smashed the windows of Kiev's main synagogue. Ukrainian police denied that the attack was anti-Jewish.

In Greece, Jewish graves were desecrated in Ioannina and vandals hurled paint at the Holocaust memorial in Salonica. In Holland, an anti-Israel demonstration featured swastikas, photos of Hitler, and chants of ''Sieg Heil'' and ''Jews into the sea.'' In Slovakia, the Jewish cemetery of Kosice was invaded and 135 tombstones destroyed.

But nowhere have the flames of anti-Semitism burned more furiously than in France.

In Lyon, a car was rammed into a synagogue and set on fire. In Montpellier, the Jewish religious center was firebombed; so were synagogues in Strasbourg and Marseille; so was a Jewish school in Creteil. A Jewish sports club in Toulouse was attacked with Molotov cocktails, and on the statue of Alfred Dreyfus in Paris, the words ''Dirty Jew'' were painted. In Bondy, 15 men beat up members of a Jewish football team with sticks and metal bars. The bus that takes Jewish children to school in Aubervilliers has been attacked three times in the last 14 months. According to the police, metropolitan Paris has seen 10 to 12 anti-Jewish incidents per day since Easter.

Walls in Jewish neighborhoods have been defaced with slogans proclaiming ''Jews to the gas chambers'' and ''Death to the Jews.'' The weekly journal Le Nouvel Observateur published an appalling libel: It said Israeli soldiers rape Palestinian women, so that their relatives will kill them to preserve ''family honor.'' The French ambassador to Great Britain was not sacked - and did not apologize - when it was learned that he had told guests at a London dinner that the world's troubles were the fault of ''that shitty little country, Israel.''

''At the start of the 21st century,'' writes Pierre-Andre Taguieff, a well-known social scientist, in a new book, ''we are discovering that Jews are once again select targets of violence.... Hatred of the Jews has returned to France.''

But of course, it never left. Not France; not Europe. Anti-Semitism, the oldest bigotry known to man, has been a part of European society since time immemorial. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, open Jew-hatred became unfashionable; but fashions change, and Europe is reverting to type.

To be sure, some Europeans are shocked by the re-emergence of Jew-hatred all over their continent. But the more common reaction has been complacency. ''Stop saying that there is anti-Semitism in France,'' President Jacques Chirac told a Jewish editor in January. ''There is no anti-Semitism in France.'' The European media have been vicious in condemning Israel's self-defense against Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank; they have been far less agitated about anti-Jewish terror in their own backyard.

They are making a grievous mistake. For if today the violence and vitriol are aimed at the Jews, tomorrow they will be aimed at the Christians.

A timeless lesson of history is that it rarely ends with the Jews. Militant Islamist extremists were attacking and killing Jews long before they attacked and killed Americans on Sept. 11. The Nazis' first set out to incinerate the Jews; in the end, all of Europe was burned in the fire.

Jews, it is often said, are the canary in the coal mine of civilization. When they become the objects of savagery and hate, it means the air has been poisoned and an explosion is soon to come. If Europeans don't rise up and turn against the Jew-haters, the Jew-haters will rise up and turn against them.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:41 PM

I try to love everyone, but my mother's dog makes it quite difficult. He is a seditious, treacherous, greedy, and arrogant little monster. He destroys property and steals food. He struts around like Mussolini. He sucks up to you when the food is in your hand, and then treats you with hostility and contempt the moment it's in his mouth. He pees on fur hats and other valuable personal items. He is vile, smelly, lascivious, and totally untrustworthy.

Susan - I was also bugged by the "suicide note" thread, but decided to just ignore it.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:34 PM

As I see it, bigotry is seeing all "people" of a group as the same, buying into stereotypes, displaying open disdain for an entire race/religion/ethnicity/etc., and taking jabs at anyone who does not share your own POV on the subject.

And, yeah...it's rampant everywhere you look, unfortunately here too.

There's no harm in having another view on a subject so long as you are considering *all* peoples inherent right to basic human dignities. This to include the right to disagree. If the conversation cannot remain civil and respectful, what good are we to anyone?

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:11 PM

Maybe I'm naive. I love everybody. Or try to, anyhow. Sometimes it ain't easy.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:02 PM

I agree with you, Joe. I'm sick of the bigotry too, and I'd like to see less bigotry and hatred toward Jews, Catholics, and Palestinians here in the forum.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:53 PM

I'm fed up too, but with hypocrisy, not bigotry.

It's just ridiculous... what bothers one person one day is someone else's very funny stuff another day..... whether you go along with it, ignore, it, or speak out against, it, it doesn't change a damn thing. This week MY peeve was the "suicide note" thread title, and I was amazed no one said anything about it.

We are all very fond of pointing out what others do that bothers us.... but we ALL do stuff that hurts others and then we don't own up to it. We get to choose not what others do, but what we ourselves do.

So get real, yourself, folks, before you pointy-finger someone else. Mudcat is still nicer than the world tends to be. Why else do you think we spend so much time HERE instead of THERE?

~Susan

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: kendall
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:47 PM

"It makes a difference whose ox is gored."

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:45 PM

The good news is, bigotry will die with the human race.

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:45 PM

It's a very fine line sometimes, as to what is bigotry and what it is not...but I also agree that Rio1sin is crossing well over it, and being obnoxious.

There is no point in starting multiple threads on a contentious subject just to goad people.

- LH

Subject: RE: I'm Sick of the Bigotry
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:39 PM

I won't back anti-Semitism of any sort, but I'm pretty damn appalled at the level of support for what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians right now in Mudcat.

I'll third Lepus Rex--the anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bigotry here is very bad.

I am Catholic, but disagree mightily that there is anti-Catholic bigotry being shown in the threads Joe Offer has mentioned. However, we do see anti-Catholic and anti-Irish bigotry in the Irish political threads all the time. Why no outrage over that bigotry when it is expressed Mudcatters?

Answer: double standards.