Help: Which Regiment(s)

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 12:19 PM

The Suffolks were at Minden: their depot in Bury St Edmunds was named Minden Barracks in honour of this. They used to wear a rose on the anniversary of the battle. And there is a pub near the old barracks called the Minden Rose.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 02:51 AM

The Kings Own Scottish Borderers, 25th Regiment of Foot also took part at Minden, their Regimental Museum in Berwick has a good section on it.

There is also a pub in Portsmouth called "The Rose of Minden"

Cheers,

Bill

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

Bit Late - But this is what I have found on the "Minden Regiments"

Minden 1759

The battle commenced at first light with Prince Ferdinand's forces forming-up in eight columns to attack the French positions. Making up the third column were six British Infantry battalions, the 12th (Suffolk) Regiment, 20th (Lancashire Fusiliers), 23rd (Royal Welsh Fusiliers), 25th (Kings Own Scottish Borderers), 37th (Hampshire) Regiment and the 51st (Yorkshire Light Infantry). These together with two Hanoverian Guards battalions and a line battalion were all under the command of Major General Spoerke and divided into two Brigades, the 12th, 23rd and 37th leading with the 20th, 25th and 51St supporting.

These two Brigades were to bear the brunt of the attack at Minden, as through some misunderstanding of orders they set off for the attack before the rest of the line had been properly formed. With drums beating and colours flying they bore down on the massed French cavalry passing through the crossfire of 66 cannon. The astonished cavalry having gathered itself charged the leading brigade. At a distance of only ten yards the infantry poured a devastating volley into the horsemen who were thrown back in confusion, the advance then continued. Further fierce attacks by cavalry and later French Infantry were repulsed by the British and Hanoverians, who were now being supported by other units of Prince Ferdinand's army. By 10 am the French were routed and fell back on Minden harassed by the British Artillery. Had Lord Sackville only attacked with the cavalry the victory would have been as complete as Blenheim.

Minden is remarkable for this unique attack by Infantry in line on a mass of cavalry, which although supported by artillery was nevertheless defeated with heavy loss. Minden Day (1st August) is still celebrated by those British Regiments involved. During the advance it is said that the men picked wild roses, which they placed in their hats. On Minden Day the drums are decked with roses and there is an age old Rose eating ceremony in the Mess!

BTW Lord Sackville was courtmartialled and cashiered after the Battle Not to suffer the same fate as Adniral Byng.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 02:35 AM

Thanks, Gareth Could you give your source of reference, please?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Hobbitmum
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:33 PM

I am doing research for a book and need some information. Does anyone know if the Scots greys were involved in the Napoleonic wars in Germany (Leipzig for instance)? There are some songs I can across that suggest this, ie. My Bonie Light Horseman, and High Germany both of which are sung by a group called Cherish the Ladies.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 04 - 02:55 PM

High Germany is I think pre Napoleonic, and Willy does not sound like a cavalryman.
The versions I know of Bonny Light Horseman do not suggest where exactly he was serving. The Scots Greys ,as you will know Hobbitmum, were at Waterloo.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:28 PM

Hobbitmum,

"The Bonny Light Horseman" would be wrong for the Scots Greys as they were classified as Heavy Cavalry (Horsemen who's main role on battle was 'shock' - solid masses of cavalry hitting formations as one lump to disrupt and destroy).
The Light Cavalry regiments (in Britain, Hussars, Light Dragoons and, later, Lancers) were used for scouting, raiding and pursuit of broken formations or disrupting skirmish lines (swarms rather than the mailed fist).

Any help?

Walrus

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:13 PM

and there was me thinking it was about penile splints -a white cock aid. Some regimesnts wore black nylon - you can get different colours nowadays.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 May 04 - 08:34 PM

"My bonny light horseman returning from Spain" - not that close to Leipzig.

High Germany could well be Leipzig, but British troops were there on and off from ca 1700-1815 and no indication in the song of which period it refers to, but I always thought it was 1750s rather than Napoleonic

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:47 PM

Hobbitmum, There is a good set of links to potted histories for the Greys (and just about every other British regiment - plus many others) at

http://www.regiments.org/milhist/regtintro/index.htm

and a good lightweight description for the Greys at

http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/rsg.htm

The Greys were in Europe a fair bit before the Napoleonic Wars, and during it, and they have the Battle Honours to prove it. They were certainly at Minden and Warburg before the Napoleonic Wars, and also at Willems in the Flanders campaign in 1794.

However, as the Walrus says, they could never be described as "Light Horsemen".

The lists for British Cavalry at 1800 include the following, so you pays your money and you takes your choice. You would have to check all of these out to see who was where and when.... Rather you than me. However,

http://www.regiments.org/milhist/uk/lists/ba1800.htm

will give the links to find battle Honours and histories. One of them might be the one!...

Household Cavalry

1st Regiment of Life Guards   
2nd Regiment of Life Guards   
Royal Horse Guards Blues   

Cavalry

1st (The King's) Dragoon Guards   
2nd (The Queen's) Regiment of Dragoon Guards   
3rd (The Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards   
4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards redes 1788 from 1st Horse
5th Regiment of Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 2nd Horse
6th Regiment of Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 3rd Horse
7th (The Princess Royal's) Dragoon Guards   redes 1788 from 4th Horse
   
1st (Royal) Regiment of Dragoons   
2nd (Royal North British) Regiment of Dragoons   
3rd (King's Own) Regiment of Dragoons   
4th (Queen's Own) Regiment of Dragoons   
[5th Dragoons]   vacant
6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons   
7th (or Queen's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
8th (The King's Royal Irish) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
9th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
10th (Prince of Wales's Own Royal) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
11th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
12th (The Prince of Wales's) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
13th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
14th (The Duchess of York's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons subtitle added 1798
15th (The King's) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
16th (or The Queen's Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
17th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons   
18th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons    1821
19th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons    1821
20th (or Jamaica) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1792 1818
21st Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1820
22nd Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
23rd Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
24th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 1802
25th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 22nd1802 1820
26th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 23rd1802 1819
27th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1794 renumb 24th1802 1819
28th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons 1795 1802
29th Regiment of (Light) Dragoons

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:27 AM

Hobbitmum,

With regard for the two songs you mention "Bonny Light Horseman" and "High Germany". The first is definitely Napoleonic in terms of time, the latter could be either Wars of the Spanish Succession or Seven Years War.

You should also take a close look at where the area described as "High Germany" was in those times.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:43 AM

"High Germany" is normally understood to be the Southern part of what became the German federation, while "Low Germany" was the northern part..... it says here...

. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2407/german.htm#HIGH%20AND%20LOW%20GERMAN

so the soldier who went to fight in "High Germany" could have been anywhere in the southern part of the country, or in Austria even... maybe Minden and other actions in that campaign?

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

The idea that the "folk" would preserve accurate historical detail through traditional songs has long been discredited, even Karl Dallas has recanted on this. Just enjoy the songs.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:04 PM

The only British troops at Leipzig were the Royal Horse Artillery Rocket Troop (with Colonel Congreve) and 4 Light Dragoons who formed an escort for General (Wilson?) who was there as an military attache/advisor. I think anyway. If it matters that much get back to me and I'll check my sources.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:07 AM

The 5th mustn't have always been vacant, ozmacca, because evetually they were merged with the 16th (lancers by then) to form the 16/5th Royal Irish Lancers.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:43 PM

Wilfried ... you said "The Union Jack doesn't count here, since it is an amalgam of four coats of arms,

Do you mean the Union Jack or the Union Flag -- I thought the Union Flag was an amalgam of only three, no?

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:25 PM

5th cavalry regiments - There was always a 5th Dragoon Guards, Princess Charlotte of Wales' Dragoon Guards, later the Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards.

The 5th light cavalry regiment I seem to remember was an Irish regiment that was disbanded for mutiny or something before the Napoleonic Wars but after the Wars another regiment was formed -the Royal Irish Lancers. It was this regiment which was combined in 1922 with the 16th Queen's Lancers (previously the 16th (Queen's) Light Dragoons to form the 16th/5th Lancers. Maybe the order of precedence was something to do with the fact the 'Irish' part was less relevant to the Crown in 1922.

And yes BPL - three arms in our flag; St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. Just don't get me going about the 'couterchange of saltires'.

Les

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:48 PM

I thought the cockade was green. That is what I sing.

The more I learn about customs and traditions of the armed forces the more I wonder what it is about putting on uniform that removes a man's natural common sense.

Rose petals are edible and give wine a nice touch of the exotic but you have to take them off the middle part and remove the white bit at the bottom because it contains enzymes which destroy the aroma - the habit of eating a whole rose on the annversry of the Battle of Minden is likely to require the application of the Heimlech manouver. A breathed in rose petal is difficult to dislodge.

One of the madder caesars once drowned quite a few of his guests in a downpouring of rose petals - probably accidentally - he ordered a shower of rose petals and I expect they didn't want him to feel they were being stingy.

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:44 PM

Anne - Much earlier in this thread I thought it was generally agreed that the cockade is usually not really part of the regimental dress, but an additional badge, either formal or informal. It was worn for a number of reasons - from designating a special favour bestowed upon the wearer, through to which side you're on in a civil war. The colour depends on any one of those reasons, so the green cockade which you sing about is likely to have been worn by irregulars, militia, or rebels during one of the innumerable Irish troubles... or something.

And although many a soldier at Minden on inadequate rations might have wanted to rip up vegetables from the farmlands they were marching through, they were stuck with roses. The average soldier being what he was (thieving ratbags), they grabbed them instead and stuck them in their hats. There is (perhaps fortunately) no tradition of actually eating them. Putting on a uniform makes you look the same as your mates, but doesn't make you altogether stupid....

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,hobbitmum
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:21 PM

Thanks to all who posted to answer my questions. In checking with some others sources, ie websites and books, I came across the fact that The Scots Greys were indeed heavy cavalry, and not what I was looking for. The 4 light dragoons would definetey work, Les, but where were they from? My character is from the Edinburgh area, where he is a lawyer and a member of the Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons a "home" militia formed by Sir Walter Scott in 1797. He joins The Royal Scots 4th Regiment, which was basically at home but sends units out to suppliment the other three-1st in America, 2ND IN Eygpt, the West Indies and India, and the 3rd in Corunna through Waterloo. And Snuffy the version I have doesn't have the Bonny Light Horseman returning from Spain. He is slain as he rides in to the battle, in my version. Thanks for the links, I will check them out.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:51 PM

Hobbitmum, The 4th Light Dragoons (now the 4th Queen's Own Hussars)were originally raised as a regiment of six troops of Dragoons in Wessex in 1685 by the Honourable John Berkeley, as part of Parliament's reaction to the Monmouth Rebellion. Berkeley married Barbara Villiers, a friend of King's younger daughter, Anne. The regiment was then known as "The Princess Anne of Denmark's Regiment of Dragoons." (How do you fancy answering the phone for that lot?) The regiment fought for the crown during the Glorious Revolution, then switched to support William of Orange in 1688. They fought their first action in Scotland against royalists in 1689. They were commanded by Colonel Fitzhardinge in 1690, and the Princess title was dropped.

The regimental history is at

http://www.qrh.org.uk/history4a.htm

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:15 PM

When I say 4 light dragoons, I mean just the four of them (they might have had a corporal as well). I'm not sure of the number of their regiment, I'll have to get back to you on that.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Thanks Les, that would help. I guess I'm looking for a unit, but four would do as they were reconnaisence. I'm trying to place this character and some of his close friends who would be serving under him in a larger unit. They could for the story's sake be only four during that part of the story. That would certainly make sense and make it easier to write.
Hobbitmum

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:30 PM

BigPinkLad - My fault, counting Wales as a separate kingdom.
The Union Flag, or Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom and it is so called because it embodies the emblems of the three countries united under one Sovereign - the kingdoms of England and Wales, of Scotland and of Ireland (although since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom).
...
The Welsh dragon does not appear on the Union Flag. This is because when the first Union Flag was created in 1606, the Principality of Wales by that time was already united with England and was no longer a separate principality.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

Beg your pardon
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:03 PM

Honest - on Battle of Minden Eve the 'Mindenites' sit around in the mess and EAT ROSES. I knows cos I seed em doin it. And one of them did choke and change colour quite alarmingly. First aid was not required, fortunately but he was a bit quiet for the rest of the evening.

The green cockade was apparently issued to volunteers sent to Ireland but just when I can't find out - or how many times -

Now I never said they became stupid - some of the predicaments I have heard about would take a good deal of ingenuity to get into and a touch of genius to extricate oneself from. Most regiments keep books to record the better ones.

Anne

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:56 PM

Hobbitmum,

You character has to transfer from Royal Scots Volunteer Light Dragoons to the Army abroad?
No problem. At this point there were no 'territorial' designations for most regiments and it was not uncommon to find recruiters from several different regiments turning up at hiring fairs and the like.
The Militia, Volunteer and 'Fencible units were also considered 'fair game' by recruiters and if your man was a 'trained' cavalryman<1>, he would be a prime target, especially if he was caught in the pre-1805 'invasion scare' (IIRC Rifleman Harris tells a similar tale of being recruited about the time of Corunna).
If a cavalry recruiter turned up at a RSVLD parade when emotion was running high, he might well leave with a recruit or two - regardless of where his regiment was 'supposed' to recruit<2>.

Regards

Walrus

<1>Levels of competence varied among some of the M,V & F units
<2> Providing the recruits could understand him, of course.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:22 PM

Walrus,
Thanks for the info, you have no idea how much that helped. As my character is a lawyer in civilain life I think he would have a high level of understanding. I chose to make him a captain in both the volunteers and the Light dragoons at Leipiz. Once again it's the frustration of trying to find a company that was there or if I can use "poetic lisence" could be there for the sake of the story. I know most of the people reading this story wouldn't have a clue, but it seems like if anyone here would read it they would tear that part of my story to bits. Not a pleasant thought for a neophite writer.
Thanks once again for your help.
Hobbitmum

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:56 PM

A quick digression. When they originally appeared, in the early 16th Century, "Dragoons" were supposed to be mounted infantry, armed with matchlock muskets or early flintlock "snaphaunces". About the time of the English Civil Wars (1642 - 1660), most armies included regiments of these troops. But as part of an almost inevitable progression, they would find that they couldn't stand up to determined infantry (they lacked pikes) or run away from cavalry (they got the worst horses), and they exchanged their firearms for swords and became cavalymen.

This happened to *all* regiments of dragoons, light dragoons and "light horse" raised in the British army during the 17th and 18th centuries. "Light Horse" were usually volunteer units, e.g. "Kingston's Light Horse", raised in Nottingham in 1745, and present at Culloden in the following year.

Only towards the end of the 19th Century, did the "Light Horse" or mounted infantry concept become fashionable again, with the invention of the magazine rifle. In the Boer War (1899 - 1902), the British army found that their Cavalry units, burdened with lances, sabres and masses of shiny bits and pieces which all had to be polished, were crippled by two or three days' hard service, while the various colonial and british light horse units were still going, regardless of their lowly social position.

And lack of sabres and class didn't stop Australian Light Horse units performing a few dramatic and effective charges in Palestine during World War I (Beersheba, Samakh).

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:30 PM

Sorry to be pedantic, but there weren't any Captains of Light Dragoons at Leipzig, I'm not even sure about the Corporal's Guard, and I'm sure that you don't want to make him a Corporal anyway.

How about he's a Captain of Volunteers (or more correctly, Yeomanry) and he's visiting relatives in Germany. He accompanies his German or Austrian or Swedish or Russian cousin (say) on campaign and gets involved in the Battle of Nations at Leipzig. He has his uniform with him because he knows his (cousin) is in the Regular Army and doesn't want to be shown up. (In fact half the reason for having a Yeomanry Commission was the chance to wear a flash uniform, usually designed by the unit themselves).

The particular Yeomanry he would belong to would depend where in the United Kingdom he lives (they were 'local' units), and the unit he joins on campaign would depend on what you want him to experience during the battle. I couldn't find an Order of Battle for the Allied foces at the battle on the web, so that might mean a visit to the library for you.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Hobbitmum
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 12:46 AM

Les,
Wow what a way to burst my bubble! If you can help, I have him doing scouting duty and he is with two other scouts when some of Napoleon's Artillery "discover"them and he is fatally wounded by shrapnel trying to return to report to Wellington. He was originally part of the Royal Edinburgh Volunteer Light Dragoons which became a yoemanry orginazation, but I think I have him leaving it to join a regular army unit before that happens. I do appreciate your help as it is for people like you who may chance to read this story if it ever gets published that I am trying to be so painstakingly accurate about this. If you can come up with any suggestions on how to get him into a unit where he would be a scout, let me know. This part doesn't happen until later on in the story, but as I am working on the timeline and chapter outlines it would be helpful to have those little details down. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Kagan
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 07:14 AM

Wow! Great thread. Loadsa fantastic background. Can I return to the musical thread for a second. Does anyone know which regiment is involved in the song 'The Lancashire Lads'...It was last monday morning I overheard them say...etc. etc. and is there any background to the song.
K.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 09:05 AM

I'm sorry but he's not going to be wounded by 'shrapnel' either. Only the British used this type of ammunition, although the term was later used for the fragments of exploding shell. It was named after the inventor of the 'spherical case shot', as it was called - a Lt. Shrapnel. So he was hit by a piece of shell. And was this Leipzig still? If so it's a bloody long ride to Northern Spain/Southern France where Wellington was at the time.

Have you considered making him an aide-de-camp? Often young Captains (usually well-connected ones) would act as messengers to Generals, called an aide-de-camp, and may be sent to find out what was happening on other parts of the battlefield. Not really scouting as such, which would usually be a small unit of light cavalry. But he could discover some hidden movement of the enemy. The other two scouts could be what remained of a scouting party of Light Dragoons or Hussars (similar toops, different uniforms) and look to him as an officer to lead them.

One prominent member of the Edinburgh Light Dragoons was Sir Walter Scott, although he wasn't 'Sir' until 1820.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 04 - 10:08 PM

Les, Great idea making him an Aide-de-camp! i have his father being an MP so he could be well connected, besides the fact that the family was wealthy. I did know about Sir Walter Scott nad how he help start the unit. However some of my research shows that Wellington was there by Oct 18, and in fact some maps that show troop movement and position have his name on the maps for the Engish troop positions. would they do that if he weren't there? I don't know as I am not a military expert at all, just a history nut. Also in some research I got from the Royal Scots website indicates that the 6DG was both heavy and Light cavalry, and explains the difference. They do not say however if they were anywhere near Leipzig. Most likely not, that wouldn't be my luck. So The Aide-de-camp theory would be a great way to work the character into where he would need to be for the story. As I have him joining up with Wellington in The Pennisular Campaign, he could have easily impressed Wellington with his record in the Royal Edinburgh Volunteers and his ability. I mean he's a 30- something laywer with a suceesful record, so he is a smart person, well-connected so why not make him an Aide-de-camp. So many thanks for that idea. As far as the other two, one of the characters is his best friend who is in the same unit. Could more than one be sent to check on troop movement of the enemy? I think that could be plausible.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 08:10 AM

In the Napoleonic Wars the regiments of Dragoon Guards are certainly heavy cavalry. The Dragoon Guard regiments had been Regiments of Horse, but were slightly downgraded (they could have slightly cheaper horses etc) to Dragoons. They were given the title Dragoon Guards to differentiate them from existing Dragoons, who they considered themselves senior to (and better than!).

Dragoons at the time had lost their dismounted role, which is why we had to have Light Dragoons. Even then, the Light Dragoons would never dismount. so we ended up having mounted riflemen in the Boer War by giving horses to infantry. You can never get a cavalryman off his horse! (see also HuwG post of 25 May).

It would be most expedient to send more than one person to check on enemy movements. If you only send one, you might not get him back! Unless he's a spy, in disguise. If you were sending an aide, because you needed someone whose ability you trusted, you would at least tell him to pick up an escort from the nearest light cavalry.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 04 - 04:55 PM

Les,
Thanks for the help! I think that will certainly be useful for that part of the story. And who better to pick up for an escort than your best friend, hey? Wow, something finally fits. thanks again.
Hobbitmum

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:38 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST,Gordon
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 07:46 PM

This is a great site. Some writters have substantial details of the events.

I have a relative who served at Waterloo for the British side. He would have been from the Inverness, Scotland area. I note in a responses that Yeomanry are from a specific area. I only have his last name and am willing to sort through unit lists, battle orders and other source material giving names. However, I'm not having much sucess in finding site references. I'm looking for a startin point.

My cousing has a letter from this soldier which references a "baracks" but I can't get access to it to read.


Any help will be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 04 - 10:15 PM

What's his name?

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Les from Hull
Date: 01 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

The Yeomanry were cavalry, but they didn't serve abroad.

He may have been in an infantry regiment. The Highland Light Infantry or one of the Highland Line Regiments (the 42nd, 79th or (2nd).

If you can find the name of the barracks, you'll probably get the name of the regiment, assuming that it's the home depot. You may have a problem having only the last name, as many highlanders would have the same last (clan) name.

Anyway, it's not really the 'British' side, it's the Allied side. There were more Germans in the Allied army than British, but you never hear it called the German side.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 04:50 AM

Many of the British Army's infantry regiments will be merged or disbanded in 2004.

All the Scottish units will form part of the new "Royal Regiment of Scotland", those from the north-west of England will form a new "Queens, Lancashire and Borders" regiment.

There will be a new "Yorkshire Regiment", which will absorb the former Prince of Wales's own Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards and Duke of Wellington's Regiment. (I am open to cash offers on my old White Rose beret badge and "2 YORKS" shoulder slides, from the disbanded Yorkshire Volunteers.)

The regiments from Wales will merge into a "Royal Welsh". Many of the regiments from the Midlands will form a "Mercian" regiment. (Mercia was the Anglo-Saxon kingdom between Northumbria and Wessex. It later became a disputed borderland between Anglo-Saxon and Viking.) There was a short-lived Territorial Regiment named the "Mercian Regiment". Probably this new regiment will inherit their cap badge.

The regiments of the Queen's Division, recruited in the south and east, are unaffected. The Light Division, which recruits from the midlands and southwest will actually gain a battalion, from disbanded regiments in the southwest.

The old regimental titles and traditions will be retained in the battalion titles of the new regiments e.g. "3rd (Black Watch) Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland".

It is reasonably safe to predict that the battalions of the new or amalgamated regiments might accept their new hatbadges, but won't dispense with any other items of tribal display of their former allegiance, like hackles, lanyards, vegetables and other flora, and so on. Any formal or semi-formal British army occasion will look more than ever like a zoo. The new regiments will also inherit lots more regimental commemoration days on which to get blotto.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 06:15 AM

What's happening to the Royal Welch Fusiliers? Will they keep their flashes?

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 07:00 AM

Their title and traditions will be kept in the battalion title. As a regiment they are senior (23rd of the Line) to their new partners, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th / 41st), so I presume they will become the 1st (Royal Welch Fusiliers) Bn, Royal Welsh.

I presume also that the battalion will attempt to keep as many RWF traditions, including the hackle, and the flash.

The only saving to the Treasury I can see from this amalgamation is that the regiment need use only one goat (as a mascot !!!) instead of two.

The Welsh Guards (and indeed the entire Guards Division) are not affected by the reorganisation.

The Army's reasoning behind these various mergers is to reduce the number of occasions on which regiments have to be re-roled, and hence withdrawn for extensive re-equipment and reorganisation. Instead, officers and men can be "trickle-posted" between the battalions. Re-roling will now need to take place only half as often as before.

This is in effect returning to the days immediately after the "Cardwell" reforms of 1870, when regiments had two regular battalions, one for Home service and the other for Overseas service, although because of slower transportation in those days, the battalions would exchange places every five years or so, rather than post personnel between the two battalions.

There was usually also a 3rd (Reserve) and 4th (Volunteer) battalion. From 2004, the TA will probably provide a 3rd (Volunteer) Bn, Royal Welsh, but there is unlikely to be a 4th TA battalion. I don't know what traditions the 3rd Battalion will keep, adopt or invent. Just so long as they keep "Detroit" as a battle honour !

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 09:57 AM

White cockades would not have been worn by British regiments as it would be considered treasonous.

The hackle is worn by those regiments that participated in Paoli's Tavern during the AWI. The Colonials swore revenge so the regiments put a hackle of red feathers in their tricornes so they would know who did it.

The Black Brunswickers wore black as a sign of mourning for their lost duchy.

The Bonny Light Horseman, like Over the Hills, predates the Napoleonic Wars.

Hobbitmum, maybe make him an observer with the Russians or Prussians?

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM

A rocket troop of the Royal Horse Artillery (Whinyates's) did participate in the campaigns in Central Europe, culminating in the battle of Leipzig. I believe they were part of Bernadotte's Army of the North (Steding's Swedish Corps, Bulow's Prussian Korps, and Winzingerode's Russians).

Their horses and discipline attracted admiration from allied officers (including Blucher), but not the Congreve rockets with which they were armed.

In any case, there were over 1000 guns in the allied army at Leipzig. A single RHA troop (battery, or company in other armies) would make little difference among such a large number.

Unlike infantry or cavalry officers who either purchased their commissions (or were promoted from the ranks surprisingly often during the Napoleonic Wars), and who subsequently learned their trade "on the job", Royal Artillery (and RHA and Royal Engineer) officers had to attend the Military Academy at Woolwich. They were therefore career and professional soldiers, unlike Hobbitmum's gentleman adventurer.

The system of purchase of commissions didn't do as much harm during the Napoleonic Wars as it did during the subsequent peace, because so many units were engaged in hard service that senior officers died quickly or were only to glad to sell their commissions at their face value. (During the peace of 1815 - 1854, wealthy officers like Lord Cardigan could purchase their commissions after an unseemly auction, which drove the price of promotion far beyond the means of officers from less exalted backgrounds.)

A toast among subalterns in the British Army which was (is ?) drunk before leaving Britain for active service in wartime, goes "A bloody campaign and a sickly season !" There is nothing like cannon fire, yellow fever and dysentery for clearing the dead wood among senior officers, and allowing quick promotion to deserving and lucky junior officers.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Weasel Books
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM

The toast is apocryphal, but echoes the sentiments well.

I think Cardigan ( a very, very distant cousin BTW) missed his calling in life. He should have been RSM!

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From:
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 02:38 PM

HI ALL,
COULD ANYBODY ENLIGHTEN ME ON WHICH IS THE ONLY TRUE ROYAL REGIMENT IN THE BRITISH ARMY ?.
I WAS LED TO BELIEVED THAT IT WAS THE ARTILLARY, DUE TO THE FACT THEY ARE RIGHT OF THE LINE AND THERE EMBLEM APPEARS ABOVE THE ROYAL EMBLEM ? AM I CORRECT ?
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I'M RIGHT.
PS I KNOW A LOT OF REGIMENTS ARE CALLED ROYAL, NO OFFENCE TO YOU ALL
AN EX 2 PARA.

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 03:52 PM

What do you mean by 'true'?
There are a number of royal regiments in the British Army. See www.answers.com/topic/list-of-british-army-regiments-1994.
King's Own Royal Border Regiment, The Blues and the Royals, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Corps of Engineers, Royal Regiment of Artillery, The Royal Gurkha Regiment, are some that come to mind.

The Royal Regiment of Artillery has an emblem with the Crown on top, then an artillery piece, the motto at base.

Outside of Britain-
Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery
Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery
etc., etc.

I believe all regiments called Royal have 'letters patent' (right term?).

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From:
Date: 29 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

thank you for the reply, but i'm still none the wiser. my ex regimement has 2 crowns on its badge. " i think the only one in the british army " ?
a question came up on a site i visit asking why the parachute regiment wasn't called the royal parachute regiment, that's why i asked the question. but i'm sure the royal artillary,s emblem / badge is mounted above the queens / kings emblem making them a true royal regiment ! may be the other units where appointed ? i don't know.
what dose a regiment have royal infront of there name ?
                                              thanks again for your help.
   ex 2 para

Subject: RE: Help: Which Regiment(s)
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM

The Pay Corps and the Staff also have badges incorporating two crowns (A crowned Lion standing on a crown).
Several Corps have the royal cypher incorporated in their badge
(Military Police, Provost Corps , and, of course, it appears in the RE badge - it has been lost from the RCT with the formation of the RLC>)
Of course, all the above are CORPS not regiments.....


As to the reduction in the size of the infantry:
The Government want to lose 5 battalions;
The five Guards Regiments are all multi battalion formations;
Most of the rest of the infantry seems to be reduced to single regular battalions;
The answer seems clear to me, lose Guards battalions (unless Princess Tony is hanging on to them to form a 'Presidential Guard' for when he makes his move).

Walrus