Early Atlantic crossings West-East

Subject: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:26 AM

I am an avid reader of books about Irish monks sailing to America a 1000 years before Columbus, Picts turning up in Nova Scotia, Kon-Tiki rafts taking South Americans to Polynesia, Egyptians heading for Mexico in papyrus boats etc etc. But I've just realised I've never heard of any legends of early crossings by Americans to Europe or Africa. Can anybody add anything to this topic?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:52 AM

The only places I've seen anything on "new" world to "old" crossings are in SF dealing with alternate realities.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:58 AM

Read books by Frederick Pohl. (not the Sci-Fi writer, another one) He researched early Euro contact with N. America. I think he did pin-point the Viking Vinland as Folins Pond on Cape Cod in Mass. He found a ships shoring where a two pointed boat (Viking type) was drawn up on shore (stakes on rocks to support the keel and post molds) and mooring holes in rocks in the pond. Viking descriptions of the landscape fits. The area is now a housing development. No mention of other direction, west to east, but most agree there was extensive fishing off the N. Amer coast for hundreds of years before Columbus.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Pied Piper
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:07 PM

I think I once read that a snall boat containing some south american indians was found of the coast of Irland. I think they died shortly after. Or maybe I drempt it? All the best PP

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM

It can be done by raft though - here's a link to information about Son of Town Hall, which made the first recorded West-East crossing a couple of years ago. With a crew of beat-up musicians, wouldn't you know.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:47 PM

I think it's more likely the other way, what with currents and all. Early American seafarers went to Egypt, we do know, and to the islands out in the Pacific. Usually, if you want to sail the Atlantic without power, you go from Europe/Africa to the American shores.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:56 PM

Early American seafarers went to Egypt, ???

Did you possibly mean the other way round?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 03:58 PM

Early Americans to Egypt is exactly what Id be interested in, Mrrzy. When was that? I'd been thinking that prevailing winds and currents work against it, but it wouldnt have been impossiblewould it ? There must be some legends surely.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 04:05 PM

Funny init - Prevailing winds and currents make it easier to sail the North Atlantic from North America to Europe, but mast recorded stories are about the crossings the otherway round. Mmmmh ! were the ledgends of Madoc and the Children of Hamelin ledgends ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: GUEST,Hal
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:54 AM

There seems to be some truth in the Atlantis account

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:20 AM

I moved the thread to the non-music section because it's not really about music. But then that made me wonder. As far as I know, there's only one song about pre-Columbian voyages to the Americas, Jimmy Driftwood's St. Brendan's Fair Isle. And this thread is asking about crossings from west to east. Is there a song about Pocahantas? She went from west to east. Well, so did Lindbergh, but not very early.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:26 AM

St Brendan is said to have sailed from the Dingle Peninsula in South West Ireland to America sometime in the 6th century.

Adventurer Tim Severin recreated the voyage in 1976/77 and wrote a fascinating book The Brendan Voyage published in 1978.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:29 AM

There is a recorded event of Inuit reaching Kirkwall Scotland


https://drmarkjardine.wordpress.com/2015/07/26/the-inuit-discovery-of-scotland-in-1682/

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: banjoman
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Was it St. Brendan who made the crossing in a Leather Boat?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Tim Severin's voyage only proved that such a craft as HE built could survive the crossing.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM

Try reading my post again Teri-towelling. I wrote St Brendan is SAID to have to have sailed from the Dingle peninsula ..........

Note the use of the word SAID.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:59 AM

South American drugs in Egyptian mummies is a fruitful field.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

Also Charles Hapgood "Maps of the Ancient sea kings" raises a host of questions not adequately addressed by archeology.

among other things: Ancient Maps of pre ice Anarctica(only surveyed during the Int Geophysical year 1957?)
                     Portolans showing accurate maps of south america pre columbus.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:06 AM

ice age hunting excursions across the atlantic.. ice flow hopping by canoe and foot...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:13 AM

PFR that would probably have been lean pickings with lashings of frostbite.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 01:06 PM

All very well Raggy - but you then stated the following:

Raggytash - 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

No "evidence" at all that he crossed the Atlantic - Still remains true.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 02:37 PM

Well then Teri-towelling you're trying once again to make a bollocks of a thread.

Sad, sad little man.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:13 PM

There was a TV documentary positing the possibility of ice age ice flow hops some years ago... [bound to have been at least one expert]
I guess they would have dressed up warm in their best seal skins and thermal otter undies...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:18 PM

PFR it was Bear Grylls and Ray Mears, but I bet neither were wearing shorts!

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:21 PM

Really Raggy? Please explain in what way am I "trying once again to make a bollocks of a thread"

People are commenting on an early Atlantic crossing (That you, incidentally, obviously believe happened) as being fact when there is no evidence at all that it ever happened. How does pointing that out "make a bollocks" of the thread?

So far YOU have been the only person being argumentative. You are the only person who has found the need to resort to swearing on this subject. You are the only person to resort to personal insult.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 03:46 PM

You WERE definitely contradictory Mr T....that is Not Allowed on this forum :0)

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

I really don't want this thread to descend into a "I said/he said" debacle.

I posted that it was SAID that St Brendan sailed to America. I care not one iota where he did or he didn't but it was SAID that he did.

In your seemingly pathological dislike for me, and anything I post, you weighed in to say there is no "evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Many years after the event the Martyrology of Tallaght mentions him as a seafarer. Who knows.

I know not (and neither do you) whether or not such a voyage took place, and in truth I don't really care.

However I do like the story and thoroughly enjoyed Tim Severin's book about his voyage.

In posting to this thread I did so in response to the OP which asked "Can anybody add anything to this topic?"

I think I have added a little ......... and your contribution?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:23 AM

Here is my first post to this thread:

Teribus - PM
Date: 31 Aug 17 - 08:36 AM

There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic.

Tim Severin's voyage only proved that such a craft as HE built could survive the crossing.

Four of the five immediately preceding posts mentioned the Brendan Voyage, two of those four were yours Raggy. Now where in that post of mine do I refer to you? Simple truth is I don't. What I have done is challenge the information presented in those four previous posts.

On the subject of likes and dislikes though, seeing as how YOU have brought the subject up. What I do really dislike is you, and your pals, persistent joint mobbing and bullying of Keith A on this forum which has been ongoing now for over five years. Like all bullies it would appear from your bleats on various threads where your words and points of view have been challenged that you lot, as a group, are perfectly willing to dish it out, but squeal like stuck pigs if anyone has a go at you (From my post quoted above it is patently obvious that I haven't done that - but yet you still squeal - Those who deliberately look for "offence" will find it even when there is none - You Raggy seem to fit into that category).

My contribution to the thread so far? - I have pointed out the facts in relation to something introduced into the discussion.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 03:49 AM

Whatever Teri-towelling, your "contribution" was in the negative:

"There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic"

The liklihood is that no-one will ever know whether or not St Brendan crossed the Atlantic. Later Christian writings suggest he did so, but they may well be biased.

Writings such as "Vita Brendani I Betha Brenainn" and "Navigatio Sancti Brendani Abbatis" support the proposition. There are over 100 manuscripts across Europe which tell the story, manuscripts such as the Dutch "De Reis Van Sinte Brandean".

What we do know is that St Brendan was known as Brendan the Navigator, Brendan the Voyager and Brendan the Bold.

Short of finding archaeological evidence, we will have to ponder that he may have dome so. we know,thanks to Tim Severin that it is possible, but whether St Brendan achieved it we will probably never know.

But hey, it's a good story.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:08 AM

Teribus, Mudcat is a folk music forum. We deal in folklore. For us, St. Brendan's voyage is a "given," whether it's factual or not.
So, drop it, and enjoy the story.
ALL pre-Columban Atlantic voyages are the stuff of folklore, and yet they can be very interesting to study.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:16 AM

Odd isn't it that others who did make the journey left archaeological traces of their having passed that way. St. Brendan and his pals did not.

The writings you refer to were written how long AFTER the event?

"There is very little secure information concerning Brendan's life, although at least the approximate dates of his birth and death, and accounts of some events in his life, are found in the Irish annals and genealogies. The first mention of Brendan occurs in Adamnan's Vita Sancti Columbae, written between 679 and 704 [That is 100 years AFTER his death]. The first notice of him as a seafarer appears in the ninth-century Martyrology of Tallaght.

The principal works devoted to the saint and his legend are a 'Life of Brendan' in several Latin and Irish versions (Vita Brendani / Betha Brenainn) and the better known 'Voyage of Saint Brendan the Abbot' (Navigatio sancti Brendani abbatis).

Unfortunately, the Lives and the Voyage provide little reliable information about his life and travels; they do, however, attest to the development of his following in the centuries after his death. An additional problem is that the precise relationship between the Vita and the Navigatio traditions is uncertain.

Just when the Vita tradition began is uncertain. The surviving copies date no earlier than the end of the twelfth century, but scholars suggest that a version of the Life was composed before the year 1000 [ That is almost 500 years after his death]. The Navigatio was probably written earlier than the Vita, perhaps in the second half of the eighth century [ 200 years after his death]. St Aengus the Culdee, in his Litany composed at the close of the eighth century, invokes "the sixty who accompanied St. Brendan in his quest for the Land of Promise".

A Curragh that could carry 60 men along with their provisions eh Raggy? How many did Tim Severin take with him? Troublle with believing old stories and myths is that if you believe any of it you have to give equal credence to it all.

I still stand by my original statement:

"There is no "Evidence" at all that St Brendan crossed the Atlantic"

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:18 AM

Tell me again Joe - Why is this thread appearing BELOW the line if it has as you say to do with folklore?

---

Get a life, Teribus. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 04:25 AM

I have not disputed "there is no evidence" if you care to read my post.

I clearly stated that the accounts of the voyage were written years after the event, in case you missed it I said "Later Christian writings suggest he did so, but they may well be biased"

"Odd isn't it that others who did make the journey left archaeological traces of their having passed that way. St. Brendan and his pals did not"

None that we know of, the Eastern seaboard of North America is huge, evidence could have been destroyed by later settlers ......... who knows.

As for 60 men ......... let's see ......... more than one boat perhaps.

But like I said Hey it's a good story.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

Inuit boat technology hadn't changed for centuries before that guy showed up in Orkney in 1682. And there are places closer than that if you're starting from Greenland. Surely others did it; it's a shorter hop than Central Polynesia to New Zealand and unlike that one, you're sailing into better weather as you go. But one lost seal hunter isn't going to leave much historic record.

On the other hand: the Greenlanders are the most sexually promiscuous culture on earth. Maybe one of them dropped their genes in Lewis or Lofoten.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:08 AM

Archeologists have found cocaine in Pharoah mummies' bindings.

And that only came from South America. They think. Which would constitute some sort of evedence. Unless the Silk Road extended across the Bering Strait and all the way down past Panama. But I would guess even 5/6000 years ago the land bridge had melted.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 07:59 AM

"I have not disputed "there is no evidence" if you care to read my post."

Who said you did Raggy - certainly not me.

But as you did post the following:

Raggytash - 31 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Perhaps I should point out that St Brendan returned and therefore must have crossed West to East !!

You obviously believe the "yarn" that is based on no actual "evidence". It is also unusual to claim "Christian writings" to be so infallible and credible being one of a gang who seems to despise religion and all it's trappings.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 08:17 AM

Piss of Teri, you only come here so you can be belligerent, you've spoiled enough threads with your bile and bitterness.

Someone posted a simple question: I am an avid reader of books about Irish monks sailing to America a 1000 years before Columbus, Picts turning up in Nova Scotia, Kon-Tiki rafts taking South Americans to Polynesia, Egyptians heading for Mexico in papyrus boats etc etc. But I've just realised I've never heard of any legends of early crossings by Americans to Europe or Africa. Can anybody add anything to this topic?

Like I said it's a good story, not one you've ever read I should think, ever read Tim Severins' book? ..... probably not.

I care not one iota if it is true or not, it's a good yarn.

In the meantime try signing up for an anger management course.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 08:53 AM

The vikings went there and back as well. Did I read somewhere that they might have got as far south as Florida?

Of course, the Australian Aborigines crossed to that continent 60,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:12 AM

"Picts turning up in Nova Scotia"??

Really, when??

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 10:28 AM

Teribus - blimey.. next you'll be demanding proof that even dragons and unicorns ever existed before Noah sailed away into the history books...!!! 🙄

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 11:03 AM

Why would I do that now pfr? Has anyone claimed that they exist? I do however, expect anyone who declares themselves as "an avid reader of books" related to any subject to at least have, through that reading, at least the tiniest vestige of knowledge on the subject matter.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 11:11 AM

Crossing from N. America to the east was an infrequent possibility because the new world was an inhospitable and sparsely populated place.
The reasons could be asteroid impacts in the Hudson bay area and Chesapeake compounded by great floods from the many ice ages. From the west the impact of mega eruptions at Yosemite could have proved deadly all the way to the coast. There may have been no Gulf stream for navigation assistance in those times of antiquity.

Central America was a far friendlier and populated place. There is evidence from the six foot tall carved stone spheres of faces showing every race on earth and is attributed to be from the Olmec civilization pre dating the Aztec and Inca.

It is not obvious exactly who the sailing societies were.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 12:06 PM

Incoherent.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 01:53 PM

We are talking about a period much less than a thousand years ago.
Climate and currents have not changed and super-volcanic eruptions and glaciation are not relevant.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:02 PM

Keith - well.. I'm talking about the ice age;
Greg the OP doesn't seem too fussy about a specific time period or era for discussing "early crossings",
and anyone else can talk about any time they consider relevant...

So who's this 'We' determining who can or cannot talk about what they think might be an interesting contribution to a broadly engaging topic...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 17 - 02:15 PM

Jack suggests an interesting point - the Inuit seem to have circled the earth, mostly above the Arctic Circle.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:48 AM

"So who's this 'We' determining who can or cannot talk about what they think might be an interesting contribution to a broadly engaging topic...???

To answer your question pfr, the "We" would appear to be Joe Offer and Raggy.

Something else you may not wish to hear Joe - "the Inuit seem to have circled the earth, mostly above the Arctic Circle." - the only place on earth where you can "circle the earth" by running a line of latitude is at the equator - Run any line of longitude on the other hand, or run any "great circle route" and you really do circle the earth. So the Inuit "seem" to have done no such thing.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:57 AM

Ice age Frenchies may have discovered America...???

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ice+age+french+journey+to+america&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPprjL9YXWAhUWM8AKHehdCiQQvwUIJSgA&b


take yer pick of top google links...

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 03:41 AM

"So the Inuit "seem" to have done no such thing."

I bet you're fun at parties.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 03:52 AM

Thanks for supplying that link pfr.

Did you read the readers comments at the end of the Independent Article? You should they're hilarious.

On the West-to-East aspect. What happened to the craft they used? Why did the indigenous people to the Westward stop building and using them? Voyages in replica craft that tie back to Egypt have all been basically current drifting voyages and have all been East-to-West. There are archaeological examples that show the development of boat building skills on the Eastern side of the Atlantic and in the Middle and Far East - Nothing even remotely like that in the Americas.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 04:00 AM

For ancient communities with no recorded contact there seems to be a connection by a common thread of mythology that has an implicit knowledge of earth's precession. A thought provoking read below:

Hamlet's Mill

by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend
An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge and Its Transmission Through Myth

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 05:32 AM

Maybe, but knowing a lot about the movements of the heavenly bodies doesn't necessarily halp you get across an ocean.

It's only recently come to the attention of white scientists that Aboriginal Australians had a very well-worked-out system of naked-eye observational astronomy - in some peoples, the more knowledgeable had a name for almost every visible star, and since the sky's pretty clear most of the time in most of the continent, 50,000 years of observations taught them something. Didn't tell them where New Zealand was, though.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:09 AM

Maybe, but knowing a lot about the movements of the heavenly bodies doesn't necessarily halp you get across an ocean.

It certainly helped with navigation and calculation of longitude, until John Harrison made accurate determinations possible.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 06:35 AM

Native Americans landed in Galway in the 1470s.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 08:09 AM

Teribus, the party animal here Stu:

"Homines de catayo versus oriens venierunt = 'Men from Cathay [China] came towards the west'"

If you are "coming towards the west" Stu, doesn't that sort of suggest that you are in actual fact coming FROM the East?

More unfounded and unverified scribblings.

"One of the most dramatic pieces of evidence for a pre-Columbian crossing of the Atlantic is to be found in a single Latin marginalia, that is some words scribbled into the margin of a book. The sentence in question appears in a copy of the Historia rerum ubique gestarum by Aeneas Sylvius Piccolomini which was published in Venice in 1477.

This is the only first-hand account of the Galway landfall, all others stem from this passage. It is extraordinary that no writer in Ireland found this remarkable enough, even out in the Pale, to record in the 1470s. A warning about gaps in our historical record.

Second, the author of the marginalia is remembered by history as Christopher Columbus. He was most likely in Ireland in 1476-1477 on a sailing trip to the north. This accidental encounter with a Amerindians (or Chinese as he believed) was to prove an important moment in his life. And years later his son recalled the episode in his father's autobiography. It very likely demonstrated to Christopher that under the right circumstances it was possible for a vessel to cross the Great Ocean between the Indies and Europe.

Way back then towards the end of the 15th Century Stu, the above would be a cracking tale to tell anyone you might want to sponsor and fund an expedition of yours to sail West to China and the Spice Lands Eh? "This of course explains why there are no Irish tales of this incident whatsoever, although you'd think it's the kind of thing they'd all be talking about for many years hence."

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 12:29 PM

What a happy little Bunny, I merely posted to the Teri-towelling, nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like it tough shit.

Obnoxious bastard

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 12:45 PM

What did you post Raggy?

I see that your last post is another example of your civil, erudite, dialogue packed with meaningful and weighty positive information to speed the discussion along.

To use Joe Offer's phrase, as I know damn well that he will not address such a remark to you - "Get a life"

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 12:54 PM

It was merely a considered response to your never ending bitterness, bile and belligerence.

It would seem that you are hell bent on spoiling yet another interesting thread.

Go and dig the garden, have a pint, do something to alleviate whatever is bothering you.

I've said this before, I don't know what happened in your life a couple of years back, but it has turned you into a throroughly unpleasant man.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:20 PM

Pray tell Raggy - WHAT "bitterness, bile and belligerence"?? - the only person to have demonstrated those characteristics on this thread has been yourself.

Your last two posts contribute nothing to the thread and are nothing but a personal attack - it is you who should be ashamed of yourself - it is you who are attempting to destroy this thread.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 17 - 02:47 PM

I could suggest you have someone read your own posts to you, you may understand them for what they are.

I've got an idea for you, build a boat out of cow hide and wood and try to sail to America, it may just give you a different prespective on life.

It may help ease whatever is troubling you, and something certainly is, that unfortunately shines in your posts to this and other treads.

And BEFORE you pick me up on how to build boats, I know there is a lot more involved, but truthfully I have better things to do with my time than argue semantics with you.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM

But Raggy, I do not hate anybody, I am far from troubled in life, in fact I enjoy myself and my life immensely.

I have read through my posts to this thread and can find no evidence at all of anything even remotely resembling the characteristics you have mentioned. Now reading through YOUR posts to this thread we get a different story completely.

As for "I have better things to do with my time than argue semantics with you." - But not the case when it comes to Keith A, eh Raggy? - you and your pals seem to love pedantic arguments on semantics with him.

Like I said Raggy you and your pals are bullies who have been getting away with your atrocious behaviour on this forum now for years. You seem to love dishing out the abuse but squeal like stuck pigs the second it looks like the tables are turned and you find yourselves on the receiving end of your own medicine. Your tactics then are precisely what you are trying to do now - you are deliberately trying your level best to get this thread closed.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:46 AM

.. then there's the rest of us stuck in the middle in no man's land hoping this interesting thread won't be derailed and closed
by perpetually warring oponents...

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 05:14 AM

Who's "warring" pfr?

Certainly not me, my contributions to this thread have been relevant to the subject under discussion and to points raised and directed at me.

The topic that intrigues me most is the one concerning the "Egyptian" Mummies, as that appears to present actual evidence. Now whether that was of voyages from West to East, or return journeys by seafarers who first travelled East to West we have no idea. The timing set by the dates given to the nine mummies puts the period in the time of the Phoenicians and we know that they ventured down the West coast of Africa and as far north as the British Isles and Norway.

I would tend to discount the West to East idea as there is no evidence of any strong maritime tradition in the Americas. That leaves East to West and IF that was the case why is there no mention of the lands they travelled to - or is this Atlantis? It also begs the question, "Why did these voyages stop?"

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 06:25 AM

Didn't tell them where New Zealand was, though.

Tell that to the Moari. Or the Moriori.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 07:05 AM

"Way back then towards the end of the 15th Century Stu"

Sorry T, why is all that directed at me?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 07:50 AM

Because it was you who introduced:

"Native Americans landed in Galway in the 1470s." - Stu

Not a shred of proof that they did. This fable has one source - Christopher Columbus, who had a vested interest in promoting the belief that you could sail to China and the East Indies by sailing directly west - after all THAT is what he set out to do when he left Spain in 1492.

Think about it logically Stu:

1: How would they know they were Native Americans? (Answer is in the 1470s they couldn't possibly know).

2: No mention about whether the two individuals were dead or alive (Most likely dead as they themselves do not feature in the account, only the "craft" they were tied to - suggests they were dead to me)

3: No "Native Irish" version of the story exists (For such an occurrence I find that very difficult to believe)

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 08:31 AM

The training of Polynesian navigators is completely outside the bounds of linear western minds. The method of instruction passed on for millennia relies on senses many of us would deny humans have.

Still it works but is on the cusp of cultural extinction.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 10:04 AM

So completely outside the bounds of linear western minds Donuel that "westerners" have actually learned to do it. Once watched a great documentary on it.

Way points on a navigation of over 1,500 miles marked by change in sea pattern as islands (Out of sight) are cleared, also activity of sea birds, species of sea birds, smell and stars of course - all used to indicate the way.

The passing on Donuel? May have been done for millennia but each generation within that generation passes the knowledge onto the next.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 02:53 PM

Teribus: Fair enough. I like the story though.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 03:22 PM

"the Greenlanders are the most sexually promiscuous culture on earth"

Can I please see corroboration for that?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 05:26 PM

Welll.. just book a flight to Greenland and hope for the best... 😜

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 07:10 PM

I am quite surprised that no one has mentioned the commercial fishing on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland that took place in pre-Columbian times. The Basques [and some say, Portugese] fishermen were providing cod to Europe for quite a while in that period. See Kurlanski's book, "Cod: A biography of the fish that changed the world," 1997. It's still available.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:33 AM

"ICE BRIDGE: EXPEDITION ACROSS THE ATLANTIC

This brand-new one-off goes back to the Palaeolithic age 20,000 years ago, where Sulestrian hunters - a group of migrants from Europe -
undertake an impossible journey across continents.
Who were the first 'Americans'? A group of top scientists believe that European migrants may have reached the New World during the last Ice Age.
Hear their explosive theory today.
Extraordinary new evidence supports an explosive theory of a trip to the New World."


https://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/ice-bridge-expedition-across-the-atlantic/


Repeated a few times over the end of this week,
and available on download from catchup for approx 1 month...

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:16 PM

Bump - while it's still being repeated...

fairly plausible case for both directions traffic across the Atlantic ice flow 20000 years ago...???

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM

punkfolk, did you know about the circumstantial evidence of a cocaine trade with Egyptian Pharos? Were Aztecs or Mayans the exporters? I have found no evidence. Were the Minoans middlemen? If they could keep cargo dry did they ship metals, mushrooms and moccasins too.
Ice Flows?
I was stupid enough to have ridden inland ice flows, it ain't easy.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:00 PM

http://www.qucosa.de/fileadmin/data/qucosa/documents/21438/diff_fund_26(2016)2.pdf

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:48 PM

Thanks that was fun. Alkaloids and civilization are bound together as part of our agriculture for millennia.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM

As ebarnacle says, the Basques financed a very profitable society for centuries by fishing the Grand Banks. So it certainly was possible to sail both over to Newfoundland and back. There's no reason why the Americans couldn't have done so. There may even be folk memory of it, though this would no doubt be dissed just as much as the folk memory (and early accounts) of Brendan of the Voyages now are by some.

As DNA testing becomes more widespread, and DNA dating more accurate it'll be interesting to see if pre-columbian nortamericano and sudamericano DNA turns up along the west coast of Europe and the east coast of Russia, China, etc.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:12 AM

fairly plausible case for both directions traffic across the Atlantic ice flow 20000 years ago...???

Not if the European migrants were "the first Americans."
We only started to leave Africa between 60,000 and 70,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:41 AM

Keith - I'm only a casual observer, but there may have been recent media reports of new theories
dating modern humans 'us' as much older than previously thought;
and similarly dating the exodus from Africa as much earlier...??

I've a feeling I read this in news feeds whilst sat on the bog for extended periods during my winter illness...?????

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:22 AM

Yes. There were some older than expected finds in Israel.

My point was just that there were no people on America until they arrived over the ice bridge.
They would be expected to migrate Southwards into the empty continent with none going the other way.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:21 PM

Keith - try and check out the TV documentary I linked to a couple of days ago.
It's still on Catch Up, if no more repeats are scheduled on proper telly...

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:31 PM

Which way do the currents go?

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:39 PM

Cheers Pfr.
It is still available.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 03:53 PM

I thought the documentary was intriguing, it will be interesting to see if more conclusive evidence comes to light in the next few years.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:32 AM

It was very interesting.
World class experts completely convinced that there was migration from the East from present day France and Spain, as well as from the West over the Bering land bridge.

Other world class experts still require more evidence.
The evidence is a genetic marker found in Native Americans, identical stone spear heads, and the availability of food and oil at the ice edge across an Atlantic much narrower than now.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:01 AM

Bit of thread drift but europeans wandered east into China in the bronze age.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-meeting-of-civilisations-the-mystery-of-chinas-celtic-mummies-5330366.html

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:34 AM

that there were no people on America until they arrived over the ice bridge. They would be expected to migrate Southwards into the empty continent with none going the other way.

Not quite. The bridge wasn't ice, it was the landmass of Beringia (about the size of present-day Finland with similar climate). When that went under the rising sea, some people went west and some went east. Hence the genetic relationship (now mapped in great detail) between the Yeniseian languages of central Siberia (the only one still spoken is Ket) and the Na-Dene languages of north America (the major one is Navaho).

There was once a much more speculative suggested link between those languages and the (also polysynthetic) languages of the Caucasus and the Karakoram, which would imply a far more wide-ranging migration, but that hasn't attracted much support lately.

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:40 AM

Mrrzy: "Which way do the currents go?"

I was wondering about that.

It looks like intrepid sailors could set sail from Mexico and take the Gulf Stream up to the North Atlantic Drift, turn right, ahem, tack starboard, and go as far as Nova Zembla, if they wanted to.

But why would they want to? The westward continents had so much space, so much game, and so few people, that--I would guess--if you wanted to get away from your neighbors or just look for greener pastures, it wouldn't occur to you to set out on the ocean or trudge across some putative arctic bridge to Europe. Maybe if you were hemmed in on the coast . . . .

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:53 AM

Rapparee assisted me in tracing back some very early finds by a German archeologist Dieseldorf in the Yucatan peninsula regarding any traces of Egyptian influence or artifacts. The grand children are still alive and might assist.

Early clues are needed

Subject: RE: Early Atlantic crossings West-East
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 10:33 AM

jackaroodave - to see what lay over the horizon.