BS: Why don't people trust doctors?

Subject: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: GUEST,Callum
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 07:24 PM

There have been several threads here where people with potentially serious conditions have asked for help.

Thankfully, most of the replies have been 'go and see a doctor'

The fact that some people prefer to query a folk forum than their doctor, worries me.

My partner refuses to believe doctors. Don't know why, but she does.

Having almost frogmarched her down to the surgery last week, she ripped up the prescription that the doctor had given her for her skin condition, favouring her mother's 'folk' remedy

What's a man to do?There have been several threads here where people with potentially serious conditions have asked for help.

Thankfully, most of the replies have been 'go and see a doctor'

The fact that some people prefer to query a folk forum than their doctor, worries me.

My partner refuses to believe doctors. Don't know why, but she does.

Having almost frogmarched her down to the surgery last week, she ripped up the prescription that the doctor had given her for her skin condition, favouring her mother's 'folk' remedy

What's a man to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:13 PM

Go see a Doc yourself, specifically a shrink because you appear to have a serious case of "DejaVuAllOverAgain" and are repeating yourself!!!

Outside of that..........I ain't got a clue! Folks do it all the time and I've done it myself......Fear of finding out what's really wrong? Beats me.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:22 PM

Well, from my experience with doctors, it isn't as much a matter of trust but a system that passes folks along to more and more specialized folks. Back in the old days, the GP did a lot of diagnosing, but these days, if its more than ther flu or a bad cold, they are inclined to just make a referral. I guess with malpractice prmiums what they are these folks are just covering their backs. Actually, I like my GP very much because he is a Green Party supposrter so when I go to see him we talk politics and just knowing the he is a Greenie makes me feel better but as fir medical stuff, I'd better all ready know what's wrong and there just to get a perscription from him, which he is agreeable (most of the time) to go along with. But, hey, I trust he'll write it. Does that count?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:35 PM

Trust a folk fourm no. but doctors???

Isotretinoin is assosciated with (temporay I believe) pseudotumor cerebri. I'd have thought the doctor, particularly knowing what the patient was on would have questioned that rather than people needing to see an optician to get things sorted.

I guess one could question why my dad was administered steptokinase for what is now generally believed to have been a Menniers attack. There is no evidince of there even having been an ECG... before the administration. He is now disabled probably having had a stroke as a side effect of the drug...

Doctors and modern medicine probably do offer the best chances but they are still falible. One of the above way what was thought to be an emergency situation. The other was one where it is clear that a second opinion from an (again within the medical proffesion) helped.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: GUEST,ozmacca
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:36 PM

Wish I knew.... Medical science (don't laugh out loud folks - I'm being serious for a change) has been responsible for providing solutions to control many illnesses and diseases and making life bearable and fruitful for thousands/millions who would otherwise have been doomed to a painful and dismal existence - if they had survived childbirth in the first place. Despite this, there will always be those who mistrust modern medicine. Just one of those traits that make populations into people I suppose.

There are certainly instances where members of the medical profession have behaved despicably, and also where the whole business of modern health care has one helluva lot to answer for, but all in all, we have to ask ourselves if this the fault of medicine or people's greed. Tell you one thing, I trust our family doctors, and I also trust the chiropractor and naturopath we have occasionally consulted. Just as I trust the hospitals where lives are saved every day. You get to know them, and the good ones work hard and with all due care to offer the best service they can for the particular complaint you've got.

Sure, there are practitioners who act unethically or incompetently, just as there are quack pseudo-natural healers, downright dangerous folk remedies, and hospitals where the staff are so over-worked that systems fail and patients suffer the consequences. But whose fault is that? Not medical science (either traditional or modern) - and not the capable practitioners of it. So it's not only unfair to tar everybody with the same brush - it's also downright dangerous to your own health if you deliberately refuse to take the best advice that a reputable practitioner offers. How to tell a reputable practitioner? That might be a little difficult if you refuse to trust anybody! Ask around... see what their reputation in the neighbourhood actually is.

What I'm not keen on are the businesses that make their money out of the misery suffered by those who can't afford to pay exorbitant prices..... Read the thread on health care in the US and think yourself lucky!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:39 PM

Pendulum effect. They used to be considered gods, till fairly recently.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 08:40 PM

... plus the current cultural orientation that We Can Know Everything We Need to Know and do it ourselves.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:29 PM

I don't know. I trust them myself.

My ex-wife was one who hated doctors. I was once involved in a conversation with her and one of her sisters in which they agreed that they BOTH hated doctors. So you might conclude it runs in the family, right? But the paradox (ahem!) is... there are two more siblings... one is a doctor and one is a nurse! Figure that one out!

Actually you CAN figure it out. I think I did. It stems from a fear of giving up control over one's own body. The one who became a doctor probably started out having that fear himself, and studying medicine was his way of coping with it. He probably thought, if I learn enough, I can always diagnose and treat myself and then I won't have to trust anyone else! The one who became a nurse probably did so because she was a girl, and girls in those days were discouraged from going to medical school. So she did the best she could. I'll bet she would have become a doctor had she gotten the right encouragement.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:30 PM

Oh, this is an easy one...

I have a friend who *is* a Doctor. He tells me that Med schools *train* Doctors to Bullshit if they don't know for certain. They teach them that their best guess is better than anyone elses surety. And so, lay folk such as we who happen to have lived in our bodies all our lives are basically told that "Doctor knows best" even those times when he may be far off the mark.

From my personal experience of 20 years of on going health problems from having CFIDS, I can't tell you how many screwy diagnoses I have gotten...but each and every one of those Doctors stood behind their diagnosis as if it had been handed down from God, and was immutable truth. I'd love to sit them all down in a room and watch them duke it out for King of the Hill.

Now, I am not saying that all Doctors are full of shit. But just one who is can make a person seriously re-think medicine as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:33 PM

There are so many good reasons for not trusting doctors (their judgement, I mean, not their conscious intentions) that entire books (including some very good ones) have been written on the subject. Check out your local health food store for convenient references.

"Confessions Of A Medical Heretic" was a great one that is long out of print...it was written by a medical doctor! He provides a damning indictment of the very profession he was trained in, back in the days when doctors were, as Susan suggests, virtual gods in the eyes of the general public. Needless to say, writing this book did not make him popular with his colleagues...thus he became a "heretic" in their eyes. In an earlier time, they would have burned him at the stake for it.

There are also good reasons for not trusting certain alternative health practitioners, I might add...some of whom are just after a fast buck, and some of whom are genuinely deluded.

But people who have strong opinions on doctors...pro or con...are generally expressing an acquired prejudice...rather than a genuinely informed opinion.

Another great book to read which exposes some of the common failings of doctors is "Confessions Of a Kamikaze Cowboy" by Dirk Benedict (a not too well known Hollywood actor, but a very bright man). It's funny, informative, and fascinating.

So don't rely on me, just do some reading about the men in the white lab coats...and keep an open mind if at all possible while you do it.

If you're ill, consult the doctors, then consult the alternative health practitioners, then weigh it in your own mind and make your own best decision. It's you who is in charge of your health, and no one else.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: GUEST,Headache thread starter
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

I didn't automatically prefer to query the folk forum as opposed to asking a doctor.

I've seen doctors. They didn't help. Here's a quote that I find insightful.

"Quinine comes from an infusion of the bark of a particular tree from the Amazon rain forest. How did pre-modern people ever discover that a tea made from this tree, of all the plants in the forest, would relieve the symptoms of malaria? They must have tried every tree and every plant - roots, stems, bark, leaves, tried chewing on them, mashing them up, making an infusion. This constitutes a massive set of scientific experiments continuing over generations - experiments that moreover could not be duplicated today for reasons of medical ethics. Think of how many bark infusions from other trees must have been useless, or made the patient retch or even die. In such a case, the healer chalks these potential medicines off the list, and moves on to the next. The data of ethnopharmacology may not be systematically or even consciously acquired. By trial and error, though, and carefully remembering what worked, eventually they get there - using the molecular riches in the plant kingdom to accumulate a pharmacopoeia that works. Absolutely essential, life-saving information can be acquired from folk medicine and in no other way. We should be doing much more than we are to mine the treasures in such folk knowledge worldwide."

--Carl Sagan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

Well, perhaps some prefer alternate cures as well, whatever they are. Some of you may recall that Cletus, Paw, Buford, and the Reg boys had some kind of success with the healing power of magnetism. Remember?

Paw's flattulence when combined with his passion for 'shine and hot wings used to be a big problem for him whenever his 'roids would flare up....so to speak...and it got to the point that little rubber donut pillows and Preparation H just weren't doing the job anymore. Cletus' 6th wife was into all the weird and wacky cures so Cletus was always coming to Paw with his suggestions that he'd heard from her. When Cletus told Paw about acupuncture, he disappeared for about two weeks and I'll be damned if anyone could find him.

The Reg Boys too had their share of wacky cures for everything from the Great White North of Canada, but most of them involved bear grease and other vile and foamy liquids. Then it happened. The whole lot of them were watching my TV down in the den one night and had been subjected to at least nine hours of infomercials while they slugged down Iron City. I had learned from experience to unplug the phone and hide my credit cards on these nights which only took place when Karen was gone. I'm still paying for that quonset hut in the Aleutian Islands and I have the complete collection of Pan Flute Favorites.......so I have learned, albeit slowly. I think the one that finally got me was the "Great Michigan Getaway Weekend" which they bought and gave to Karen and I for an anniversary present. It was a month before I found out that they had billed it to my Visa and when we went for "rest and relaxation" in beautiful Michigan, it turned out to be clapped out motel run by a retired Nepalese Sherpa in downtown Flint, just across from a closed GM factory.

I guess it was about 5:30 AM when Cletus woke me up and said they had the cure for Paw's hemorrhoids. This was more than I wanted or needed to know at 5:30 so after verifying that it wouldn't cost me anything, I said have at it and went back to sleep. When I woke up about 7 I had one of those vague feelings of dread. You know what I mean? Nothing was wrong that I could think of and yet I just felt the world was going to come after me that day. It turned out to be Old Man Rafferty instead....but I'll come to that.

The "boys" arrived back at my place about noon having already left when I woke at 7. They were lugging some huge electric motors into my garage and looking about for tools when I walked in and asked what the hell was going on. Cletus then launched into their "cure" and the reasoning behind it. It seems they had watched an infomercial about the "healing power of magnetism" and saw immediately that this was the way to fix Paw's 'roids. Slowly it all began to come together for me and I began to wonder how it was that these guys could even remember how to breathe!

In any case, they'd picked up the motors from out back of Bernie's Electrical Supply and were now going to remove the large magnets inside. Their idea was to cut a slit in Paw's rubber donut, insert the magnets, and then duct tape the thing back together. I noticed that Buford had an old jockstrap (with cup) that they evidently were going to use to strap the magnets to Paw's rump, again using liberal amounts of duct tape. Listening to Cletus explain all of this and their newfound theory made me begin to question my own existence, as though I really didn't exist at all in the world I had come to know, but was simply a bit player in a leftover Rod Serling story.

Things started going downhill pretty quickly as the magnets were removed and now were flying across my garage, affixing themselves to various steel things....like my van, my lawnmower, my golf clubs, and a little steel reinforced concrete rabbit that someone had once given us as a joke. I figured that I was going to be better off if they'd finish up somewhere else so I suggested they take all the stuff and head for the pleasant little roadside picnic area on the edge of the village where they could finish rigging Paw up and with any luck, I'd never know anything more about it. After removing the magnets, scratching the hell out of my van, breaking off the head of a 5 iron and the left ear of the rabbit, they left. The picnic area was only about a half mile off, just a bit down Rt.664, and I told them to let me know how it all worked out.

Curiosity is a terrible thing sometimes and about an hour later I grabbed my Weimaraner and his leash and set out as though I were just walking the dog. As I turned on 664 I saw the Boys all walking towards me from the little picnic grove. Paw's rear end seemed to be a bit large and he was walking funny, but from a distance I could tell they must have done a good job circling his butt in magnets because outside of a slight limp and a big bulge at the rear of his bibs, Paw looked pretty normal. Then it happened. Trailing the others, Paw walked past Old Man Rafferty's mailbox, a new heavy duty steel one to foil the kids with cars and bats. He first slowed, stopped, then flew backwards and before you could say "morons" he was hanging from his ass on the mailbox. Ol' Man Rafferty was washing his aging Buick Electra and looked up to see what was happening. By that time, Cletus, Buford, and the Reg Boys were all tugging on either Paw or Rafferty's mailbox and though they got him off, the mailbox was smashed in and the pole was a goner.

Well I tell you, Rafferty came flying down the drive, gravel spitting up from his shoes, and swearing a blue streak. Paw was laying about 10 foot up the drive where he'd landed after the force of being ripped from the mailbox sent him sailing through the air. Rafferty bent over him and started yelling in his face and Paw was trying to stand up but being weighed down by the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring. I got up there and tried to get Rafferty to calm down some as the others stood around looking bewildered. Rafferty started blaming me for allowing such "dumbass shitkickers" to stay here and how I should let them rot somewhere else. Before he could say another word, things continued to deteriorate. Paw had gotten to his feet about 15 feet from the Buick and there was a loud clanging thump as one of the hubcaps flew off and affixed itself to Paw's rump. Rafferty grabbed the hubcap and started pulling for all he was worth swinging Paw round and round in a circle. The hubcap folded and broke loose and Paw landed by the side of the road while Rafferty began to rage about his rump-sprung hubcap and twisted mailbox. I got out my checkbook and with a stern look to Cletus asked how much this would cost to keep from calling the police. The sight of my checkbook calmed Rafferty down and my Weimaraner had gone over to the side of the road and was licking Paw's face. Rafferty calculated a sum which I figured was enough to buy a new set of tires and an exhaust system for the Buick and build a brick mailbox, while forcing me nearer to bankruptcy.

Cletus and the rest were circled around me as I handed Rafferty the check and when I turned to go, I saw Paw had gotten to his feet again and was bent over stroking Jaeger's head. The dog has always had a soft spot for Paw and when I whistled for him he reluctantly came back up the drive. Bending over to pick up his leash, I heard Cletus say, "Aw Sheeitt!" Right then I couldn't imagine how things could get worse, but I looked up just in time to see Paw lifted from his feet and his ass attach to the exhaust stack of a passing Peterbilt. I watched as the truck roared off, Paw flailing around and in a blind spot where the driver couldn't see him, and the dumbass Reg boys waving "bye-bye" as the Pete rounded a curve down by the Hopewell place.

We found Paw at the truckstop at Rt.37 and I-70 where the driver had stopped for fuel. When we arrived, the Magnetic Ass-Healing Ring was nowhere to be seen and Paw was sitting on a bag of ice trying to cool the burns from riding 27 miles on an exhaust stack. But I tell you what.....Perhaps it was the scar tissue from the burns that did it, but Paw hasn't had trouble with 'roids since then. Maybe there is something to the power of magnetism.....................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:43 PM

What WYSIWYG said about the "what we know..." is a big part of the picture. With so many resources available to folks these days on th internet, most folks can pretty much figure out a lot of stuff it ain't and zeron in on the stuff it might be. This makes it a lot easier for doctors. Like my doctor friend. When I go to see him, yeah we talk gardening and politics byr he knows that I am coming to him as an "informed" patient and with that a given we can cut through a lot of crap. Doctors like informed patients.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 10:07 PM

Little Hawk...

Dr. Mendohlson (I can't remember his first name, but I think the spelling of the last is correct) is the one who wrote "Confessions of a Medical Heretic". It was a wonderful read. He also wrote another one, but I cannot remember the name. Both were very enlightening. And, what my buddy the Doc tells me, Dr. Mendohlson was spot on. I saw him speak a lot of years ago, and it was very enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: mmm1a
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:36 PM

The main thing to remember when seeing a doctor is that you have every right, and definately should ask questions . If I go to a doctor and he refuses to answer my questions or just blows me off then that is the last time I go to them and I make sure I let them know why . Remember it is your body and you have a right to have things explained in a manner that you understand. If you have children this is very important. For too long we have put people in the medical field on a pedastal. They do make mistakes. mmm

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:45 PM

"Confessions of a Medical Heretic" by Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D. is indeed in print. See Amazon.com (Click here).

I notice the author is a doctor. Does that mean we shouldn't trust him either?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 11:45 PM

...half graduated at the top of their class and half at the bottom....but which half is your doc in?????

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Mudlark
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:37 AM

Consulting a doctor is expensive, you will be given very little time and/or attention, your lab results will be far more important than your own physical body and symptoms, and in 99 cases out of 100 you will be given a Rx, probably the latest item being pushed by the detail men. If you happen to be drug sensitive, or if the drug doesn't work, or causes more problems than it cures, the doc is liable to get mad and give you even less time.

Consulting Mudcat, however, is free,you will get a lot of time and attention from caring people who often have suffered the same type of symptoms, and they wont get mad if their suggestions don't work for you.

I read my first book on iatrogenic illness (that caused by the medical establishment) about 30 years ago, when my husband was diagnosed, eventually, with malnutrition after following the AMA diet he was given after a heart attack.

I am grateful to have doctors and hospitals, I have even known a few good ones of both, but they are hard to come by and the bad ones can do a lot of harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:55 AM

I do trust doctors---until they prove to me that they do not know what is correct for my particular set of symptoms. By then though it is too late to correct their wrong guesses----educated or not. But when they get it right, they get it right. About 50% of the time, where I've been concerned, they did get it right. Somehow I'm not comforted by the fact that, in baseball, the guy would be batting 500. When I am the patient, I look for a better average than that. When I am that patient, just the word AVERAGE where a physician is concerned---especially my physician---scares the hell out of me.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:12 AM

Because if they're wrong, it could be fatal (to you, not to them).

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:24 AM

spent too many years growing up going in and out of the doctors' various offices...about my ear infections and hearing and whatnot...when when I was thirteen years old they discovered that a tube that was put in when I was five was still in my ear.....after that ear started bleeding...

One would think that after 8 years of people shining a light in my ear...they would have found something long before...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:04 AM

I don't not trust my doctor, it's his surgery staff I have a problem with..... several times now a referral letter has been delayed because the surgery staff have 'misplaced' my notes (but isn't that them there in the drawer where they should be?), are not sure of what to write in the letter (how about Dear heart/chest/head specialist, please see this patient?), or have dropped me off their books (but I was only here last month and look, isn't that me on the computer screen there...)!

Mostly it's the fear of the unknown. I trust doctors to know what they are doing, and if they don't to send me to someone who does. I too, am guilty of not taking up prescriptions if I feel they are not a cure. Too often prescriptions are given out for drugs to mask the symptoms rather than cure them. I 'masked' a chest infection for 5 months due to my doctor handing out antibiotics like sweeties, and it turned out to be pleurisy, a condition which has left permanent scarring and weakness. I've recently been suffering from fainting spells, dizziness, nausea and low blood pressure along with a few digestive problems. I was prescribed an anti nausea drug that I felt would not be a cure, so I didn't take it. I've found out what caused the fainting, I'm taking it easier, rethought my diet (for the digestive problems) and I'm not nauseous any more. I only found out what the fainting was caused by, by fainting and being taken to a casualty unit where they are trained to look at everything. Not once in the last 6 months I've been regularly consulting my doctors, did either one of them think to take my pulse......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:25 AM

Well, I can't believe how completely people trust my wife Christina, who's a chiropractor. She has made certain sacrifices to make it that way, however. She practices out of our home, and she treats every patient like a friend. She spends from 45 minutes to an hour with each patient, but charges what many chiropractors charge for 15 minutes.
Oh, and she recycles all those magazines that tell chiropractors how to make more money.
I'm proud of her.
I also have a medical doctor I trust, but Christina takes care of most of my maladies.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:13 AM

I have been very fortunate in finding a few good doctors whom I trust, over the years. My first choice, now, is a good accupuncturist. Second choice is a osteopath. After that, I will get around to a regular MD. Having just moved and knowing none of them in the area, I am in a quandry about how to find a good one of each, but as I ask around, I gather more info and will soon decide.

I think what helps is what someone else mentioned, be an informed patient. The docs I see figure out, right away, that I know what I am talking about when it comes to my own body, that I ask specific questions until I understand the answers, and that I will not take their word, nor their prescriptions, like gospel. They also know I will come in armed with printouts of information from researching whatever I think might be wrong OR what they might have diagnosed. Plus, we usually have a hell of a good time talking poitics, etc. The last nephrologist I went to used to set aside a whole hour for me because he wanted to debate with me; one of those times he didn't even charge me because he said it was so much fun!

There are idiots out there. If I wind up going to one it will only be that once; they will never see me again. One of my unofficial volunteer jobs has always been acting as an advocate for friends and family in health matter. Anyone has the right to bring someone with them to see their doctor, and have that person take notes, ask questions, etc. Often the patient is so focussed on what might be wrong that they forget what the doctor said or forget to ask certain questions. An advocate can help with this. I've also done this with people whose pets have been gravely ill and who are not able to cope, alone, esp. to pay attention to what the vet might be advising. In both cases, it seems to be helpful and well worth it.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: fogie
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 04:15 AM

The vast majority of people in the UK do trust doctors, as recently shown on a radio 4 poll. One has to ask what is different about those who do not, and what exactly are they looking for? There is no certainty in this world, all any caring practitioner does is do their best within the limits of their training, and whereas we choose our friends, we are usually assigned to a practitioner, and do not always understand where they are coming from personality-wise. But at the crunch most doctors will handle the really important challenges in a way that I doubt many complementary practitioners would. Who do you call when you are involved in a serious car accident, or a possible pneumonia, and Im not talking about a minor infection, those we should treat ourselves. Many people with minor mental problems find it difficult to accept the diagnosis, and those with personality problems are by nature never satisfied. Some people are truly sociopaths and make life impossible for those who try to help them whoever it might be. A doctor deals with all these sorts and more 24hrs a day. You only hear about the discontents and the rogues ,who are few and far between.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 08:32 AM

Yes, and there are good lawyers out there who can be trusted too... :-) I even know a couple.

I have maintained excellent health into my early 50's by not smoking, not taking drugs, and not drinking...and by seeing doctors as SELDOM as possible. I have found them useful when I needed a prescription for a specific drug, as in the case of eye drops to cure a minor eye infection. I also found them useful when I had a moped accident in Bermuda once, and needed to be patched up. They'd make excellent auto mechanics, I'm sure.

I have experienced depression on a number of occasions, for obvious existential reasons (like being out of work, being stuck in a romantic relationship that wasn't working, having a job I hated, etc...). The doctors were quick to suggest various drug remedies for this...none of which worked AT ALL, in any positive sense...but BOY THEY SURE WERE EXPENSIVE! What DID work was: finding work, ending the relationship and moving on, quitting the job and finding something more agreeable to do...

Well, DUH! Maybe the doctor should be made to take all those drugs he is foisting on others...and see what interesting effects it has on him...if he survives.

For another great book, read "Roger's Recovery From Aids", also written by an MD who has become thoroughly disillusioned with the AMA.

As an organization, the AMA bears more than a passing resemblance to the corrupt and self-serving Musician's Union...they protect their own turf jealously, to the detriment of almost everyone (including most of the membership), and it's ALL about money.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Grab
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 10:03 AM

Why avoid doctors? Basically, fear of finding out there's really something wrong with you. Many serious diseases (especially cancer) are easily curable in the early stages, but often people put off going to the doctor until it's too late. Men are particularly vulnerable to that, since there's massive social pressure on a man to refuse to admit they're suffering. Every boy learns from teachers, parents and/or friends that "boys don't cry" and "don't be such a girl about it" when they hurt themselves, and it's reinforced by a society which teaches that "hard" men who can put up with pain are better than "wimps". And that's a major reason why more men die of cancer than women, even though more women get cancer.

Also fear of what you don't understand, the same reason ppl hate computers, VCRs, etc, and fear of putting your safety in someone else's hands, the same reason ppl are worried about trains or planes. Admitting that you're not in control of your body can be frightening.

Re Celtic Soul, a doctor's best guess WILL nearly always be better than your best guess, bcos he's studied medicine in a damn sight more detail than you have! You can explain what the problem is and what your symptoms are, but tracing the cause of the problem and solving that problem, he'll nearly always do better than you. Doctors are hampered by know-it-alls who *think* they can cure their problems who come in saying "I've got this sore throat, I know if you just prescribe me antibiotics it'll be OK" and then they get all upset when the doctor won't just hand over the tablets. Or assholes who say "I saw an ad on the TV for this medicine and I want some".

This all isn't helped by the human body's refusal to be easily cured. So many diseases have the same symptoms that the doctor's often screwed either way. Someone comes in with a skin rash, it could be just about anything, from vitamin deficiency to any one of a zillion infections. All the doctor can do is say "try this, and if it doesn't work then come back".

If you believe that the doctor works miracles and he can magically tell you what's wrong with you, you're sadly mistaken, and that's the problem. Ppl say "well I went to the doctor and the cream/pills/whatever he prescribed made no difference, so I don't trust doctors any more". Guest Headache-thread-starter illustrates exactly this problem - there's such a range of problems causing a headache ranging from keeping the windows closed in your house through to an inoperable brain tumour. If you've seen all your local doctors, and you've been through all the specialists in your state, then give up. Until then, it could be something really rare which only a few specialists know about. Don't expect the doctors to keep ringing you to ask "did that last set of treatment work?" - if you've still got the problem then it's up to you to come back and say "it didn't work".

I'd utterly disagree with Mudlark. If that's his experience of his doctor, he should be reporting that doctor to their medical council! Since so many things have the same symptoms, for god's sake GO BACK if the first try doesn't work! Then the doctor can rule out that first option and look at less common problems, or refer you to a specialist who'd know more about it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Peg
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 10:47 AM

traditional doctors are trained to treat symptoms and most of them look at you like you have two heads if you mention an "alternatuve" treatment (even something proven effectuve in clinical studies like herbs or aromatherapy). I don't have health insurance and I can't afford to waste what little money I can spend on health care on some close-minded doctor with a superiority complex. I have met some great doctors who have a more holistic approach combined with tried and true western techniques; this seems the best mix.

Joe, I need a chiropractor! (my back is still killing me) Any tips on how to find a good one?

peg

---

Marry one! [grin]
Actually, the best way to find any professional is to get a recommendation from somebody you trust.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 11:09 AM

Here's something you ought to know about. My mother had colon cancer. The cancer had invaded her adjacent stomach before it was discovered. The surgeon told us she probably had been ignoring symptoms for a long time. I guess that makes her the opposite of a hypochondriac. Hyperchondriac, maybe? She was also malnourished, because one of the effects of cancer is a loss of appetite. This in turn causes physical weakness. What precipitated her going to the hospital was literally one of those "I've fallen and I can't get up" episodes where she dragged herself to the phone and called 911. That's where she finally got a thorough exam, which disclosed the cancer.

That was 18 months ago. She had surgery, and is now in a nursing home, where she is thriving. There is no sign, so far, of any return of the cancer.

But what I mainly wanted to tell you was this: At the end of the surgery, the surgeon (whom none of us had met before) came out to the waiting room to talk to the relatives. Besides describing my mother's condition and prognosis with great thoroughness and compassion, he also stressed the importance of all of her close blood relatives having colonoscopies, because colon cancer is somewhat hereditary. There is no better time and place to get people's attention!

I told my doctor at my next exam, and he gave me a referral for a colonoscopy. This was based entirely on my mother's history (and my age, I suppose). I had no symptoms. They found one polyp, which they removed during the same procedure. Pathology showed the polyp was not cancerous, and not even pre-cancerous. (Isn't everything pre-cancerous?) (That's a joke, son.) And the procedure itself was no picnic. But I feel confident that I did the right thing, and my chance of dying early has been significantly reduced.

Now I suppose some anonymous GUEST will tell me I was stupid to trust the doctors, that the colonoscopy was unnecessary, and there is some herb that will infallibly prevent cancer. (I am already getting angry just anticipating what these idiots will say.)

I will at least point out that there were three doctors involved who agreed on this: my mother's doctor, my own family physician, and the specialist who did the exam.

I might have more to say, but I feel myself needing to take a break right now. I think I'll look at some music threads for a while. In the meantime, I'm glad Graham is sticking up for doctors.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: 53
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 11:29 AM

Doctors only practice medicine, they don't know everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Graham and Jim Dixon, there has been a mix in this thread of those of us who have found good doctors AND good alternative therapies. Why do you paint us with a broad brush calling those of us who use herbs "idiots," "anonymous guests" and the like?

Doctors are human, just like the rest of us; they are not infallible. Should we only talk about the good encounters and none of the bad? There's one incredible surgeon who saved Catspaw's life. Am I grateful, are we grateful? Hell, yes! Would I try to treat a massive injury from a car wreck or something JUST with alternative methods, no, but I would supplement allopathic with known-to-work alternative treatments.

I am glad for you, Jim, that you feel you did the right thing, but what works for you isn't necessarily what someone else needs/wants. That may be your type of prevention. Others may prefer to use different types of prevention.

I use herbs and I do not consider myself an idiot, nor do I ever post as an anonymous guest. I also go to a doctor on a regular basis. So where does that fit in with your rant?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM

There are always plenty of great examples to support either side of this ongoing debate. If you find a doctor, just hope he's a good one. Same goes with auto mechanics, chiropractors, and navigators.

Grab - I've always been proud to be a wimp who can't put up with a little pain and just bear it silently. I groan, whimper and whine. In fact, the moment I feel any pain I rush off to get expert medical assistance! Usually it's from the chiropractor. Lately I've been doing hatha yoga, and I no longer seem to need the chiropractor, which is a benefit to my finances.

Oh. And I am a man. :-) I've always been kind of a nonconformist, though, for some reason...

Speaking of personal anecdotes...I had a great-uncle who died in his sleep at the age of 98, having not seen the doctor in 3 or 4 decades. As you suggest, he no doubt put off seeing the doctor until it was too late...

Tragic. Just tragic. When will people learn?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:15 PM

Sorry, Kat, I didn't mean to call YOU an idiot. I was only anticipating that there would be at least one genuine idiot out there somewhere, like the one who posted here. There usually is. It was him (or her) I was thinking of, not you. Does that help?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 01:51 PM

If you can find a good doctor, then that's great. I haven't had one since we moved from TO, ten years ago.

Since then, every doctor I've ever seen has "prescibed" drugs for me after I tell them three symptoms. I have a lot more than three symptoms, and not one has addressed my constant tiredness. One even told me that I didn't have allergies, completely ignoring the scratch test that showed I definitely DO have allergies. That doctor was fired a couple of months later. *Shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:00 PM

Thank you, Jim, I understand about idiots like the one you linked to and the anon-e-mouse ones, but you had specifically included "herbs" and idiots, together, so I took it as this thread-specific. FWIW, there are herbs, etc. which have been studied and proven to help keep one healthy, plus many, many of the drugs now produced sytheticlaly, as I am sure you know, are copies of what Nature provided all along.

Just one other question: how many people do not go to docs when they may have a serious illness because of a bad experiene with docs before? I don't know, but would think it is certainly worth consideration.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 02:20 PM

Furthermore, I know perfectly well that doctors are not infallible. My mother, for pete's sake, was under a doctor's care when she collapsed. Her weakness had been attributed to "anemia." Surprise, surprise! The "anemia" has disappeared now that the cancer is gone. In other words, I'm pretty sure my mother was misdiagnosed. Of course, my mother probably contributed to the problem by failing to mention to anyone that she was also having abdominal pain. The surgeon said she HAD to have been feeling pain for several months.

So the doctor screwed up. But what could an herbalist have done that was any better? Or a chiropractor? Or a yoga instructor?

I have no doubt that, in some cases, an herbalist, or a chiropractor, etc., can make you feel a bit better, and there's nothing wrong with that, as such. Maybe they can get your "chi" back in balance, until it gets unbalanced again, which is usually pretty soon. But they don't cure anything. And the kinds of problems they can solve are relatively trivial to begin with.

If you don't trust your doctor—and maybe you shouldn't—the solution is to find a better doctor.

Despite their many mistakes, there's nobody out there anywhere that can do what they do better. And I don't think there's any group of people anywhere that more deserve my trust.

The reason I mentioned my mother's cancer was to impress you all with the seriousness of the problems that doctors deal with, as opposed to the trivia that herbalists etc. base their claims of success on. "I was feeling a little depressed this morning, but that herbal tea perked me right up!" Well, maybe it did, but maybe coffee would have done just as well, and maybe going to bed earlier would have done even better.

Yes, doctors have little patience with minor complaints, and sometimes this offends people. Maybe doctors even sometimes deliberately offend some people, just to discourage them from taking up their time with trivia, when they'd rather be working on people who really need their help. If that's the case, I don't blame them.

In the ideal world, doctors and chiropractors etc. would operate in separate realms that didn't overlap. Then no one would say, "I prefer an acupuncturist over a doctor" just as they wouldn't say, "I prefer a carpenter over a plumber." But in the real world, a lot of people ARE confused about which one they should go to, and therefore they do make invalid comparisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:16 PM

Jim - Actually, I think that in an ideal world doctors and chiropractors and acupuncturists and all the rest would work cooperatively, rather than in separate realms. This, in fact, is what the more open-minded ones already do around here. Rather than battling over turf, they assist each other.

However, it's a small point. I am certainly in agreement with most of what you said...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:35 PM

I wouldn't even try to convince you of anything otherwise, Jim. Obviously your mind is made up. After all the Chinese can't have had it right for over two thousand years....

Little Hawk, the Plane Tree hospitals are a good example of taking an holistic approach to it all, blending the best of all traditions to the optimum benefit of the patient.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 03:45 PM

Every profession has its share of people who don't do their job very well. Doctors and lawyers (and musicians too!) are no exception.

I trust doctors - but I don't go seeing them everytime I have a pain somewhere. I sprained my foot awhile back and it was terrible! I hobbled around for a week, and it was two more until I got most of my mobility back. Even now it's still a little tiny bit stiff - but I can dance and kickbox and all that without any trouble.

Mister asked me, do you want to go to the doctor? I said, no, what are they going to do besides give me some free Naproxen and tell me to stay off it? I can do that myself. And I did.

Thankfully, I stay pretty well on the whole. But I would not hesitate to visit the doctor if I believed it was necessary. I do believe that most of them are good people who want to help you.

Now, the other side of the coin is, sometimes it's hard to get in to see the doctor. A couple of years ago I was having some awful sinus problems, and I did call the doctor's office. It'll be at least two weeks before we can get you in, the nice lady told me.

Two weeks? I said. I'm sick NOW. I could be dead by then. (no kidding, that's what I said; all you sinus sufferers will understand)

Well, you can see her partner, and that's still covered by your insurance. We can get you in at 10 tomorrow.

Okay, I said.

I still had to sit in the waiting room for two hours.

I think that little hassle is another reason why people put off seeing a doctor if they don't think their symptoms are serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 04:50 PM

I'll tell you why I don't trust 'em - My son now has whooping cough. Will the Doctor tell me it's whooping cough? No. Because it mucks up all their wonderful records and statistics concerning their vaccinations. He's been coughing and spewing for 5 weeks now. I know it's a virus and it'll run it's course, but poor kid. Actually he's gotten so used to carrying a bowl around with him; he dare not go out without it. He makes very light of it. Some of his friends (and believe me there are many of them) have had this virus for 7-8 weeks. There won't be many going back to school when half term is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:23 PM

Regarding that quote from Carl Sagan above: Although I have great respect for Carl Sagan, I want to caution against certain possible misinterpretations of what he was saying.

(I just spent several minutes searching for that quote in my copy of "The Demon-Haunted World" and failed to find it. I don't doubt the quote is real; I just wanted to see it in context.)

Without a quote of my own, I can't prove this, but I THINK Sagan was arguing in favor of "min[ing] the treasures in such folk knowledge" and then subjecting that knowledge to rigorous scientific testing. I don't think he would ever advocate using any herbs just because native healers say it works for them.

There are a lot of shortcomings of accepting "knowledge" that is only tested informally. For one thing, native people are not likely to discover that drinking (or smoking) a certain herb when you're 20 can cause cancer when you're 50. In some of those cultures, it's pretty rare for anyone to live to age 50. For another thing, certain herbs may be valued only because they're better than nothing, and we have better alternatives.

And I think most "alternative healers" wouldn't know a double-blind test if it bit them in the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 05:29 PM

You can tell that a musician is bad just by listening, but how can you tell about a doctor? Only the other doctors know, and they have a code of silence that makes the Mafia look like tattletales--

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Peg
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 06:39 PM

the comment about "the trivia that herbalists etc." base their claims on versus the "serious" issues dealt with by doctors is just plain ill-informed. Don't criticize something you know so little about--as you prove with the other ill-informed comments you make further on about how people in "some of those cultures" don't live past 50. Just to give you two examples, Chinese herbalism and Ayurveda are the two most prevalent herbal healing systems in the world, and the Chinese and Indians enjoy much greater longevity and health than lazy Americans exposed to multifarious toxins and weaned on junk food who have the best doctors in the world. It's not just about herbs versus modern medicine; it's about lifestyle and attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 11:21 PM

Well said, Peg. American civilization is cocksure, self-congratulatory, and complacent...just like the Romans, and for very similar reasons. The Romans ate like pigs and they drank wine out of lead-lined vessels, thus slowly poisoning themselves. Had anyone suggested to them that it was harmful to do that, they would have labelled him a "quack" or whatever their term was for that...and ridiculed him publicly.

The same sort of foolishness goes on today. I found the average Cuban to be noticeably healthier than the average American. The whole lifestyle there is healthier and more active, the food is homecooked on the spot...not precooked and then "nuked" later, and there is virtually no junk food whatsoever.

The AMA does not possess a monopoly on "scientific testing" to back up their chosen methodology. A great many alternative methods of treatment have been rigorously tested in the lab as well, but how would anyone know that if they don't bother to investigate it and find out in the first place?

People's habitual prejudices are usually sufficient to cause them not to bother investigating anything or anyone whom they have already decided not to take seriously... quite regardless of available evidence. If you choose to simply ignore evidence, then it "doesn't exist", does it? :-)

Most people's eyes glaze over when you say "Ayurveda"...they can't even pronounce it, so why would they bother investigating it when there are more important things to worry about..."like how about those Red Wings, eh?" Does Homer Simpson worry about Ayurveda?

Conventionality is the guardian of ignorance. Always has been, and probably always will be. - LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 03:17 AM

Mrs Lemon - it might be worth a check by the health authorities into this whooping cough, because it sounds very much as if you had a batch of dead vaccine. If a lot of his friends the same age are getting it, and they were supposed to have been vaccinated, then there is something wrong.

Kim C - I phoned my Dr yesterday (7th June) for an appointment after my little trip to Casualty (ER) last week, thinking maybe he'd like to check up on me? The next appointment I could get was 1st July. I too, said, I could be dead by then!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: lady penelope
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 06:52 AM

I think part of the trouble with doctors is, that to become one you need to be accademically very bright and also believe in yourself to the point of arrogance ( some go too far on this ). This combination, plus very little training in "bed side manner" more often than not leaves us with a doctor that can be far too confident and has no particular urge to "share" with their patients, or the "doctor knows best" syndrome. Occasionally we get doctors who remember that they are human beings the same as the rest of us, but not often enough.

I work in a teaching hospital, where potential doctors are trained in their craft. It can be down right scary, knowing that these people, regardless of how badly they handle patients ( or even just people in general ), will be given a medical degree and let loose on the public.

I think HOW we train and socialise doctors is a large part of the problem. In Britain especially, GP's are very much left to their own devices, they are not encouraged to cross consult with other doctors on difficult cases and quite often, due to lack of finance / time / resourses, physically can't. This ends up giving you three types of GP.s. Those who refer at the drop of a hat, those who will hand out drugs like sweeties in the hopes that they'll finally figure it out and those who won't refer you even when they should. Lump this together with not being able to actually see your doctor for weeks on end and it becomes no surprise as to why people neither trust nor want to go to their GP.

What makes it really bad is when you have a really good doctor and your local health authority muck him about so much that he leaves!

Many GP.s and doctors in hospitals leave their patients in the dark even after requests for information. Then they wonder why the patient chooses to do something that may not be in their best interests, or they may just never see the patient again!

I'm not saying that there aren't patients who will do anything to avoid either knowing about or dealing with a problem they have, but I think the majority of people are just plain lacking in sufficient information and nervous of what may or may not be happening to them.

I think being able to talk to other people who may have been through the same thing as you are, at least gives you some direction to what action you want to take. If you don't know anything about a situation how can you make a decision on what to do?

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 11:24 AM

I'm in the UK and have an excellent doctor who has treated the whole family for about 18 years now. Although in the past copule of years it has started to take a couple of days before we could see her, previously she would just extend her working day to see anyone who needed her and even now with the appointment system she will take as much time as you want.

However, in the last month three members of my family have been referred by her to the local Hospital.

* I had severe, sharp chest pains: they did ECGs and tested me for a major lung clot, but they couldn't find anything so sent me away without further medication or treatment

* My daughter has had a strange pain in the left side of her waist. After urine tests and examination they couldn't find anything so they sent her away without any further medication

* My son's had a knee problem: an MRI scan didn't show any problem so they can't find anything either - but at least he is getting physio.

In each case, the approach seems to be that if the tests don't reveal a problem then there is no problem, even is we are still in pain. One of us might be a hypercondriac but three of us seems a bit unlikely!

Even so, I'd still always go for doctors than folk-based medicines. As Kipling put it

Wonderful little, when all is said
Wonderful little out father's knew:
Half of their remedies cured you dead
And most of their teachings were quite untrue
Look to the stars, when you patient is ill
For dirt has nothing to do with disease
Bleed and blister as much as you will
Blister and bleed him as oft as you please
Whence enormous and manifold
Errors were made by our fathers of old

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM

Some people do. I do. I'm sure some people have suffered because of poor medical advice or treatment, but I certainly am inclined to trust the doctors I have.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM

I have had nothing but exceptional medical treatment in my life. I trust the skill of my Docs because I take the responsibility to check them out. My mother the nurse did this for me whan I was very young.

The one thing I don't trust Doctors to know is rehab techniques or the lates therapies. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the Doc to know this stuff.

When I have a medical question I ask a Doctor. When I have a rehab question I ask people who may have had a similar experience and seek a direction from them. The end result of their advice is mine to accept or deny but the responsibility is mine alone. Which is as it should be.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 02:04 PM

Yeah, I suspect the real problem is not so much with doctors but with the educational and social system that produces those doctors and shapes their attitudes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 03:44 PM

None of my children had the Wooping Cough vaccine because I didn't want to play Russian Rulette with their brains. We used a homeopathic remedy called Pertussin for the prevention of the cough for the two girls. My homeopath sent me some Drosera for Joe and he's had an easier day today.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jun 02 - 07:14 PM

For those who are intertested, there is a ton of information, at the National Institute of Health's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. This was a major breakthrough when our government became open-minded enough to begin studies of alternative methods. There is some very interesting stuff on accupuncture, I noticed. Haven't had time to explore the rest, yet.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Grab
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 12:44 PM

Peg, I'm not sure where you get the stats about Indians and Chinese being so much more healthy. India in particular has problems with such nice things as typhoid and cholera due to the conditions in the slums there. I suggest you look at the stats for the ppl living in the ghettos and in the countryside, not the rich middle-class. And America's problems are caused by a failure of lifestyle to provide healthy diet and exercise, not by a failure of the medical profession - all the medics will tell any American who'll listen what the cause is, but if that 300lb Bud-drinking truck driver won't listen, then it's not the fault of the medical profession that the truck driver dies of a stroke or heart attack.

I'd love to know on what basis you think the Chinese and Indian traditional systems have good, proven medical methods. Powered rhino horn for impotency is the most obvious one.

I don't doubt that there's some useful stuff there, just as there was useful stuff in pre-1800s Western medicine, like Romans using amputation as battlefield surgery to prevent further blood-loss and infection, and various things like willow-bark (from which aspirin is derived). But equally there's a bunch of total nonsense like the belief in bleeding a person to improve their health. Until anyone cares to carry out proper studies to determine which bits of "traditional remedies" work, which are horseshit but don't hurt, and which are positively harmful, how do you know which one you're getting? That Kipling poem DMcG quotes is dead on the money.

NCCAM (cheers for the link Kat) seems to be taking this the right way. But then there's the question, if NCCAM shows something doesn't work, do you trust them, or will you continue to rely on the anecdotal "evidence" supplied by the homeopath and say "well Indians have been using it for 1000 years so it must be right"? Remember that the same ppl also thought that the world was carried on the back of a turtle for much of those 1000 years...

Basically, I don't doubt that *some* of it works. But until someone can tell me which bits work, which bits don't, and which bits will kill me if I try it, I'd be bloody worried about it. Western medicine says "up to now, this drug/therapy/surgery is the best technique we have for curing this disease/condition/injury" and if something comes along which is proved to be better, then that new method will become the new best-practise. Until you have some evidence, your belief in homeopathy or any other "alternative" medicine is simply religious faith, not a rational decision.

Mrs Lemon, do you have the info about whooping cough vaccines causing problems with kids' brains? AFAIK there's been nothing, ever, that's come to a conclusion on that, and there's a helluva lot of evidence that says kids die of these diseases. There's also a lot of evidence that says your immune system is at its flat-out strongest when you're a baby, and you'll never be able to build up immunities as well in the future. Think on't.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:42 PM

Graham,

It's like the stuff the MD's do...some of it works, some of it doesn't. :-) Which method of treatment you decide to go for is a matter of faith, and how we acquire faith as we move through life is entirely unique to each individual, based on their cultural background, their parental influences, their religious mindset (if they are religious), the books they've read, and even in some rare cases direct experience!(Big Grin!!)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 06:49 PM

Graham,

There is evidence that shows an incredibly small amout of children react very badly to the whooping cough/measles/chicken pox vacines. I was part of a team of technicians and therapists hired by the State of New York to develop a support system for a child with this allergic reaction caaused disability. This child was one of three in the state.

Sure the numbers are minuscule but tell that to a Mom. My wife and I had serious second thoughts regarding our sons when they ad the vaccines.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 10:40 PM

Yes, and what I meant to say is this: People who have faith in conventional medicine (drugs, surgery, radiation, etc...) are acting out of faith just as much as people who have faith in alternative medicine (acupuncture, homeopathy, Ayurvedic techniques, hypnotherapy, colour therapy, aroma therapy, chiropractic, etc...ad infinitum).

Somebody, some "authority" whom they decided to trust told them it works. Period.

As for the "evidence"...there is a vast amount of it... both for and against both conventional and non-conventional methods of treatment. It just depends on whom you read, and whose opinion you trust the most.

Furthermore, what is "conventional" in one society may be "unconventional" in another. Acupuncture is a part of conventional medicine in China. That's just one example.

People usually read those authoritative sources which support a viewpoint they are ALREADY prejudiced in favour of...and they avoid reading opposing viewpoints or skim them contemptuously just so they can ridicule them afterward.

That's how the human ego works. And that is precisely what is fueling the vigorous debates that arise on this thread and others like it.

There is much of value in both conventional medicine and alternative medicine, and they would do best to pool their resources and help one another...as the wiser practitioners are doing already.

My prejudice is against the AMA and the main medical establishment... Why? Because they've already got almost all the power, almost all the money, and almost all the perks that go with it. They don't need my help or anyone else's at this point. They run the friggin' show, and they intend to keep it that way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:06 PM

I will give one more in response to fogie...

I can site a case where a friend of my mothers who actually worked within the health profession (as did Pip, she was a physiotherapist)... she had headaches and problems for a couple of years and trusted her GP who had her down as some kind of "mild nutcase with imagined symtoms"... turned out she had a brain tumour.

She is still alive and I believe after a second op is doing fine but she would have been much better off if she hadn't have believed her own GP.

Which leads me to...

Those with supposedly minor mental health problems... It is strange range they are the case you cite with the most difficulty in accepting unless you consider...

These people are, unless as in the case of the person I mentioned above who actually had a phyiscal problem to prove a point, are so easily branded "nuts". They have little means of proof on way or other. And it's so easy for the public to believe doctor's blunders without that proof when it is calimed "the patient has a mental problem"...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:34 PM

It was so-called Western medicine which believed in blood-letting. There is also SO much more to TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine, than the infamous rhino horn bullshit. And, what makes you think Chinese medicine does not progress? It adapts to the changing world. My accupunturist never uses animal parts, for instance.

I've given western medicine all of my life and I don't like where it's brought me. What I have experienced, drat there's that direct experience LH mentioned, with TCM, has been much more efficacius AND my MD fully embraced my treatments in TCM and was as pleased with the results as I.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jun 02 - 11:46 PM

kat,

Even though my posts have been largely "why not trust", I think one has to acknowledge things have moved on a lot since "blood letting"

Overall, I think modern western medicine does have explanaitions for the functioning of the human body that make sense, understanding of which does seem to enable trained people to offer cures reasonably reliabliy...

As far as I understand it alternative medicines do seem to work for many but they don't seem to always agree with western medicine. What seems to be missing is a big WHY?

Could do with someone like Mark Cohen on that.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:12 AM

Sorry, Jon, my remarks were not directed at you. Of course Western med. has progressed beyond blood-letting. I was responding to Graham's reference to it and also to rhino-horn.

I also believe the WHY is that Western medicine has by and large completely lost track of the person and the power of the mind and emotions to effect the body. We've seen it here, time and again. There are some Drs. who have written books about it and have made the connection, but most still do not. Trad. medicines always consider the person in an holistic sense, i.e. the mind, emotions, living situation, PLUS all of the physical stuff.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 01:32 AM

But we still practice blood letting after a fashion. I used to give blood, and I always felt fantastic the day after - physically as well as emotionally (1 in 7 blood type, Rh-, good deed for the month....). I can understand why it would be thought of as efficacious... if you've high blood pressure, why not get rid of some of it?!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: fogie
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:23 AM

I cant understand why Mrs Lemons GP would be against confirming Pertussis if that what her children had. The alternative very similar viral infection is Respiratory Syncitial virus (do you know- I dont know if thats the way to spell it!.) I mean if the children havent been immunized thats where his statistics are knackered, not that they may have caught something that theres no cure for. I always remember the look on a local midwifes face when she realized that all her 4 kids had come down with measles at once. She didnt immunise them for similarly individual reasoning, and wondered why her caring GP seemed to throw up his hands in despair at her pleadings to help. Lets face it if youre not immunized the chances of catching the illness is greater, and the illness statistically is more lethal than the imms! Anyway I've always wanted to simply exclude those families who dont want to immunize, from the stats, after all its a free world, no matter that the illness if caught could cost the country lots more that the vacc. Perhaps the parents would pay for any extra treatment resulting from their decision to take an alternative view, just as we all have to pay for those rare side effects of vaccines on individuals via the NHS

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Grab
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 07:14 AM

Kat, my point was that blood-letting was Western "traditional" medicine. Medicine progressed beyond there, bcos ppl conducted proper studies to see what worked and what didn't. MDs share experiences of which therapies work and which don't, so that the central organisations can work out what's best practise and what should be scrapped.

My worry with "alternative" therapies is whether there's anything corresponding to that, which can fulfill a similar function. For example, are Kat's acupuncturists changing what they use bcos a group of acupuncturists have researched many alternatives and found which ones work best in double-blind tests, or just bcos they can't get the other stuff? Also note that making you "feel better" or "seeming to work for you" is NOT a measurable criteria - as Liz says, blood-letting may make you feel great, but it's not a good therapy! :-) And if powdered rhino horn is genuinely the best remedy for some conditions (has anyone checked?), then maybe we should be farming rhinos to get enough of it! ;-)

This is contrary to LH's talk of faith. LH says that the choice of therapies is based on all various cultural stuff. Frankly, I'd be more interested in choosing a therapy which worked! I don't have a baseless faith in Western medicine just bcos I've been told so, I have trust in it bcos I know that all the way up, there's ppl looking at which therapies work best. When "alternative" medicine has the same level of rigour in defining best practise, I'll be happy to have the same level of trust in it. Until that improves, I have little to base that trust on, which makes any such trust more of a matter of faith than rationality. I certainly won't rule it out, bcos there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that some of it works - the trouble is that it seems (to me at least) to be largely stuck at the same pre-scientific stage that medicine was before Victorian times. That NCCAM is certainly a big leap in the right direction (when I get time, I'll have a good look through that and see what the score is on all the various therapies - get myself properly educated on that).

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 08:46 AM

Actually, bloodletting IS a good therapy...for certain forms of illness. It just isn't a good therapy for all forms of illness, which is where the "leeches" of earlier western medicine went horribly wrong.

My father is presently getting some blood taken out at regular intervals (every 3 months, I think), in order to relieve some blood condition that was making him quite sick. I believe it's a situation of too much iron build-up in the blood. If some of the old blood is removed, then the body manufactures new plasma which is absolutely free of the iron, thus lowering the iron content in the blood overall.

I believe there are also some other health problems which are relieved by occasional bloodletting.

This all falls under the category of conventional western medicine, not alternative treatments.

So the problem with the leeches was not that they bled people, but that they tried to make it a panacea...rather as present day doctors have tried to make the use of prescription drugs a panacea...with the encouragement, of course, of the pharmaceutical companies.

Graham, unless you were there personally observing all that testing and experimentation by all those people in those labs which you allude to, and unless you were also thoroughly educated in the technical aspects of what you were observing...your opinion is based on faith. As is virtually everyone else's opinion.

We all have faith in what seems most plausible to us. The only thing more powerful than that faith is direct experience, accompanied by accurate knowledge of what is actually happening.

One person may see a light bulb turned on and say "It's a miracle!" Another may see it happen and say "It's black magic!" Another sees it happen and says "It's electricity." They are all calling it what their own life experience has prepared them to call it. But do any of them REALLY know what it is...?

Just cos people have a convenient word for something, by golly, they think they know what it is. Usually they have only a fragmentary idea of what it is, if any idea at all. If they're used to it, they accept it, and think nothing of it. If they're not used to it, they look upon it with astonishment, curiosity, fear, or even complete denial. In these ways do people react to perfectly legitimate medical treatments with which they are (so far) unfamiliar.

But if an authority they already TRUST tells them it's okay...then they usually accept it on faith.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 11:44 AM

Little Hawk: That's a pretty extreme philosophical position you're taking. You seem to be arguing that, since everyone has faith in something, that therefore all opinions are based on faith and not logic, and therefore all opinions are equal; there is no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea, and logic is irrelevant.

Well, that's one way to get people to quit annoying you with logical arguments!

But I can't believe you sincerely believe that. Surely even you are sometimes influenced by logic and insight. Surely sometimes even a person whom you have no particular "faith" in, can cause you to change your opinion by pointing out something you hadn't noticed or thought of before, but which makes perfect sense once you do think of it. Hasn't that ever happened to you? If so, I don't think you can say all your opinions are based on faith, or that all opinions are just a matter of deciding whom to have faith in.

Science is NOT a matter of faith. That's why all science classes involve lab experiments. If science were taught as a matter of faith, it would be enough that you simply memorize equations like Boyle's law (PV = k) without ever doing the experiment yourself. The whole point of doing the experiment is so that you can see for yourself that Boyle's law is true; you don't have to trust anyone. And hopefully the idea will sink in that all scientific knowledge is simply the accumulated experience of thousands of people more or less like yourself doing experiments like this one, carefully analyzing the results, and carefully writing them up for other people to review, critique, and repeat.

Apparently a lot of people go through the experience without ever "getting it." I wish I knew the solution to that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 12:48 PM

This around and around discussion is nicely addressed in the film Contact. What we have here is what Carol and I have in our marriage, insurmountable differences in our world views of things faith based. We have solved it by not solving it---by agreeing to disagree. Some paradoxes simply must be taken note of -- stated as well as we can---and then left to hover in the air where folks like me and WUSSIEWYG can peacefully differ and, with little harm done (hopefully) move on our way... I like what you all are saying. Good polemics all. Some thruths are to be found therein.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: lady penelope
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 02:47 PM

Here's another stick for the fire............

I think that there are valid therapies out there in the "alternative" medicine world. Several of them have even been tested by 'Scientific Method' and found to actually do what they are supposed to. Example, lavender essential oil. It does act as a calmative, it does help to lower blood pressure, it is anti bacterial. The British Medical Journal has articles on this, not to mention several hundred other medical publications / journals, never mind what you can find on the web. Let's not forget, asprin is only willow bark and digitalis is foxglove.

I do think that herbal remedies ( especially when taken in the large doses recommended by some practitioners ) should be looked at as carefully as "normal" drugs. Just because it's 'natural', doesn't mean it's safe to use without caution. Rasberry leaves contain a high level of uterinal stimulants and shouldn't be ingested by pregnant women, for example.

On the other hand,' western' medicine is now suffering because of a cavalier attitude to antibiotics. Over the course of the latter half of the 20th century, antibiotics were not only handed out at the drop of a sniffle ("just in case" attitude ) to humans, they are also now firmly entrenched in agriculture.

We now are literally having to find things, other than antibiotics, that will kill bacteria ( not unlike the situation inthe 1920's ), as so many are now at least partially resistant to the antibiotics we have. In our hospitals we have a serious problem with "hospital aquired infections". This is generally "Methecillin Resistant Stapholococcus Aureus" ( MRSA ). Methicillin is the antibiotic given to patients ( especially those with open wounds ) when other antibiotics aren't working. Because of over perscription of this antibiotic by house doctors and surgeons, we now have a virulent strain that is a constant problem in every major hospital in Britain. In the microbiology lab where I work, I've seen the section that deals with this "bug" alone, go from being an afternoon job for one technician, to being a full section manned all week by one state registered Biomedical Scientist with two lab. assistants.

Regardless of WHO gives the medical advice or WHAT form that treatment takes, medicine should be treated with a healthy (sorry) respect. This is why patients need good, consistant and most of all, accurate information when they are being treated. It should be given to them by their doctor, or else we end up going round in the circles that have started in this thread.

I'll get me coat.............

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:06 PM

Well said, LadyP and Art, too, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:11 PM

Ditto on the well-said to L.P.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 03:12 PM

I think I always felt better after giving blood because I replaced the lost pint of red stuff with a pint or two of best bitter.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 04:51 PM

Art, I think you'll really enjoy this one: A humourous look at what happens when Western science tries to understand a Chinese herb.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:14 PM

So that's an example of herbalist humor, huh? What herb do you have to smoke first to make that seem funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM

I was only quoting from them: The following satire is a humorous description of one man's interpretation of what happens when Western science attempts to understand a Chinese herb.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:29 PM

Ha! Good one, Liz... :-)

Jim - Read what I said again...

"The only thing more powerful than that faith is direct experience, accompanied by accurate knowledge of what is actually happening."

That is what the scientist in the lab has. Direct experience. That is what the patient has who has undergone a specific treatment, and seen the results. Direct Experience. That is also what the doctor, the acupuncturist, and the chiropractor have, regarding the treatment methods they use.

As for those who do not have such direct experience, they are taking someone else's word on it...and how reliable that someone else is, is then the real question. I may consider him totally reliable, somewhat reliable, or not very reliable at all...and upon this I bring to bear my logic, and like you I am a very strong believer in logic! But I am an equally stronger believer in direct experience, which is more valuable than secondhand information, no matter how "authoritative" it appears.

Do sperm whales exist? My sense of logic tells me that YES they do, although I have never actually seen one in the flesh. I have seen pictures of them, I've read books about them, I've seen films of them. Now...pictures, books and films can all be faked, can't they? However, my sense of logic tells me that it is virtually inconceivable that everyone from Hermann Melville to now...uncountable thousands of people...have all concocted a false story about sperm whales. Right? It would be highly illogical and paranoid to think so. So both you and I use our logic and we believe in sperm whales. We do so as a matter of faith, supported by a good deal of logic and common sense.

Now are vaccinations, viagra, radiation treatments, and such a good idea? That's a much more complex and debatable matter than the existence of sperm whales. Accordingly, I am far less inclined to automatically have faith in those forms of treatment, despite the fact that a lot of present medical authorities support them. A lot of others do not. It depends whose book you CHOOSE to read.

The conventional medical authorities have already been wrong in the past about a whole bunch of things (like bleeding people for every little ill...or like thalidomide), and I am not about to give them carte blanche now, plus there is some pretty compelling literature out there which presents a radically different viewpoint to theirs.

My sense of logic has just as much to do with evaluating reality as yours does, I can assure you, and I ALWAYS bring logic to bear on any question that is in front of me. If direct experience contradicts what appears to be common logic, then there's a factor involved that is not commonly known or acknowledged, and further inquiry is necessary in that case. It was common knowledge in Rome that lining wine bottles with lead was completely harmless, and gave a good taste to the wine. They were dead WRONG about the "harmless" part.

I reiterate my position that the ordinary man in the street bases most of his opinions on faith (supported by whatever amount of logic he is naturally inclined toward) and on what amounts to second or thirdhand information. Most opinions are based on a mixture of faith, habit, and logic.

That's why people make that wisecrack "Opinions are like ***holes...everybody's got one."

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:32 PM

A fair nice bit of epistemology, LH. Well turned. [applause]

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 05:57 PM

Hey, Alex! How's it goin' in the "combat zone"? :-) (just kidding)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 06:07 PM

Currently no battles. Gathering my forces. Recuperating hit points.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jun 02 - 10:44 PM

Descarte goes into a bar. Bartender says, "Would you like a drink?" He answers, "I think not."------and he disappears.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

Art - LOL! I think we have Shatnerization.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:51 PM

Little Hawk: Thank you for your long post at 5:29 PM. You now seem like a more reasonable person than you seemed before. Your mention of "faith" worried me. I GUESSED that you brought up the issue of faith because you were trying to say it's all a matter of faith; logic doesn't enter into it. Now you're telling me I guessed wrong and logic DOES enter into it. Well, it's reassuring to know that. So why DID you bring up faith?

It seems to me the whole faith issue is a red herring. If we're ever going to get out of this mess, it's logic that will lead us out, not faith. So why is faith even worth mentioning in this context? If faith explains why some people are resistant to logic—well, I guess I knew that already, but I don't see how it helps. I know something about how to appeal to people through logic, but I don't know how to address their faith, and I have serious doubts that addressing their faith is a good idea.

I'm glad to know you believe in sperm whales. I believe in sperm whales, too. I also believe in viruses, although I've never seen one of them, either. And I believe in insulin, although it looks just like a clear liquid to me. My reasons for believing in those things, and a lot more, are pretty much like your reason for believing in sperm whales. So where does that leave us?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:07 PM

When I had my last child, 25 years ago, I almost died. I was in the labour room, she'd come fast and I was bleeding out. I had explicit faith in my doctor having grown up under his care and respect, plus he'd already delivered my other two children. I was dying. They couldn't get an IV line started to get the meds in to start my uterus contracting, in order to stop the bleeding. I was floating around above them ,watching with a sense of detachment, noting that it was my body they were working on. I remember being coherent for a moment, long enough to say to him, "Am I going to be okay?" I heard his strong, yet gentle voice, say "Yes, Kathleen, you will be fine."

That was all I needed to hear. I had complete and utter faith in him and his abilities. Shortly after, I was back in my body, came to, and realised things were starting to get under control.

Did my faith have anything to do with my recovery? I believe it did. I've worked in the health care field and I have seen the apathy of patients who do not feel as though anyone cares about them, or that have no faith in their doctors. They are the ones who have given up, who have no faith in anything. In one instance it didn't matter what kind of medical means we used to help a person, she gave up and died, for no good medical reason. I am positive, to this day, that had I not had the faith I did in my doctor, I might not have fought so to live, to hang around while they worked on me. Sure the meds and procedures helped, but there was some time there where I believe I was living through faith, alone, while they frantically tried to find someone who could get a line into my collapsed veins. My doc said I'd be okay and I believed him and so it was.

There are many, many instances, written in books by medical doctors and others, which document the importance of some kind of faith, in the healing process. It is to our detriment if we do lend it credence, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:34 PM

Jim - Too bad we can't get together at the coffee shop and discuss this at some length... :-) Like I said, people's opinions are based on a mixture of faith, habit, and logic. The proportion of each in that mixture can be pretty crucial. Some people are highly logical, some only slightly logical, and some barely at all.

When I use the word "faith" I'm not implying strictly the religious kind...but rather all forms of confidence that one may have in various notions or authoritative sources and structures.

A lifelong Republican, for example, has a strong measure of faith in the merits of Republicanism. He will bring whatever logic he's capable of to bear in supporting that faith. His logic may still lead him astray, since it might be rather narrowly selective logic.

Most people's logic is somewhat selective, and mirrors their prejudices. Even in the scientific community this is a very common problem. People have a tendency to cling to an accustomed position, and explain away or even dismiss hard evidence that appears to challenge that position.

So when I say that faith plays a large part in forming people's opinions, that's what I mean...not just religious faith, but all forms of faith.

Most people's view of reality is far less objective than they think it is. To realize this, and apply it in examining oneself as well as others, is to gain a certain measure of humility. I have often questioned my own longheld opinions by deliberately reading viewpoints that radically differ with my own...and sometimes this led me to eventually change my opinion.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:23 PM

Faith and Double Blind tests.

Is it not a fact that in virtually all Double Blind tests a certian percentage see good results from the placebo? For many ailments, if you think it will help, IT WILL. Go read the disclaimers on virtually any prescription medicine. None claim to be 100% effective.

Where does this lead us? If we are disinclined to trust our doctor, we are less likely to be cured. Because FAITH could allow us to be cured even by sugar pills. Interesting paradox?

We need to educate ourselves about our conditions make sure that our doctors have our full cooperation and all the information they need. Then have some faith. BTW prayer is very effective if you believe in it. As is holistic medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 05:31 PM

Right on, Jack. Belief is a very powerful thing, particularly if it's belief at a deeper psychological level.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:22 PM

Just as a little update as to 'the boy's' "whooping cough"-he's had 5 doses of drosera and he's not vomiting quite so regularly now. His coughing fits are less; just limited to stressful moments like running a few yards or leaping about, as little boys like to do! There's a noticeable improvement. He helped us with some collecting of logs today-something he couldn't have done at the weekend. He'll be back to school on Monday!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:07 AM

I believe I have a reasonable degree of trust in my doctor, because she knows that:

I will immediately review any diagnosis of any condition for which she recommends treatment in my current copy of the Merck Manual of Diagnostic Medicine (and possibly in one or more of my 9 earlier revisions).

That I will be back immediately if I - and Merck - don't agree with either her diagnosis or recommended treatment.

That I will not take any prescription until I have read and understood the applicable information in the Physician's Desk Reference.

That I will have, and understand, a copy of every lab test that she prescribes for me, and will record and compare trends in lab results to verify (or refute) the efficacy of her presecribed treatment.

That I will not accept any treatment that is not based on a diagnosis with which I agree.

That I will tell her if I believe I have found a condition that requires her assistance - and that I expect her to respect, and confirm or refute my "diagnosis."


I call it "self-defense," but it makes me feel reasonably secure.

I suspect she calls me a "difficult patient."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 08:01 AM

Another question is: Why don't some doctors trust their patients? (enough to keep them informed and to LISTEN to what they have to say)

I have scoliosis, and I know EXACTLY what caused it to develop during my youth. I have tried to explain it to several different doctors and chiropractors, not one of whom listened seriously to what I had to say...

They have their own preconceived ideas of what causes it...if they have any idea at all.

Mind you, it doesn't really matter, cos they don't have a cure for it in any case. I find that yoga exercises and various stretches are the best remedy for easing up the muscle tension it causes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:06 AM

Mrs. Lemon - that's called an immune system. Your kid's obviously got a pretty good one, which is lucky for him. Some kids aren't so lucky and would be dead or damaged by now, which is the reason for vaccinations.

Little Hawk, re your "personal experience only" theories, I suggest you check out the Flat Earth Society for a laugh. Its basic tenet was that the Earth is flat and Antarctica is actually the rim. They based this on the fact that no-one had demonstrated Antarctica is a single continent by walking from one side to the other. All space research is therefore a massive conspiracy theory. Obviously they're wackos, but it shows what depths you can get to when you say "if I've not seen it, it ain't so".

I guess you have to differentiate between faith based on the existence of scientific structures, heavy research, years of clinical tests and the like, as against faith without basis; and the relative benefits brought to the human race by both sides. Too many ppl aren't rational on this. To take an analogy, aviation has had some really bad crashes, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's safer to be flying than to be walking along the street! But ppl still say "I'm scared of flying bcos planes aren't safe". Similarly, medicine has cocked up very badly in the past (thalidomide would be an example of that), but it's still doing a damn sight better at keeping ppl alive than ANY traditional medicine system (AKA "folk remedies") has ever done. For proof of that, you only have to look at the population figures for any country before and after the adoption of vaccinations!

Since this is the case, I'd be more inclined to trust the opinion of a modern medical doctor than someone who only knows folk remedies. I know that the medical doctor has the better part of a decade of training, that the treatments he provides have been through numerous clinical trials to find the nasty side-effects, that a system is in place to report any other side-effects which haven't been found during testing, that this system will also track all treatments to find which gives the best result for my illness, and that there is oversight of the doctor's actions in case what he does causes me harm. I do NOT know that any of this exists for any alternative medicine practitioners. Therefore my greater faith in the medical doctor than the alternative medicine guy would seem to have a pretty sound basis, at least for the moment until alternative medicine gets itself organised.

I guess to some extent I'm also trusting the person to be competent - that they'll tell me all the facts about a treatment, and that they won't recommend a treatment that'll harm me or actively try to kill me for their own personal benefit. I don't know that there's any defense against this, bcos you have to accept that you're not an expert in the field and they are.

Re specialists disagreeing with each other, that's bound to happen. As you yourself say, they have vested interests. But the emphasis is on each of them to prove their cases - usually the one going against the majority verdict has the tougher time. Which is as it should be - some revolutionary claims are true (eg. Pasteur's discovery of bacteria), but some are just bunkum (eg. Breatharianism), so you'd better have some decent evidence ready for your claim. And if you do come up with something revolutionary and have the evidence to hand (eg. pennicillin) then you can be sure that it will be accepted pretty damn quick.

JohnInKansas's approach may be a bit OTT, but it's perfectly justified and rational. That's the same approach that an oversight/epidemiology check would be taking.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM

Yeah, Graham, the Flat Earth Society is a spectacular demonstration of "common sense" and personal observation gone amuck! There was an elderly professor at the University of Toronto in '69 when I was there who was a lifetime member of the Flat Earth Society. He had all kinds of articles pinned up on his door, "proving" that the Earth is flat. Amazing stuff to read. He looked like John Brown, with the full beard...and was probably equally wacky.

It's always a good idea to consult as many available sources as possible on any contentious issue, since one person's common sense may be another person's nonsense.

Most sailors even in ancient times were well aware that the Earth was round, since they could plainly see the curvature of the Earth from the deck or mast of their ship in calm, clear weather.

Even Columbus and his crew were well aware of it...despite Washington Irving's fictional nonsense to the contrary in his book about Columbus...after all, he was sailing west in order to reach China, wasn't he? That indicates a round Earth, obviously. He was however, mistaken in assuming that it was a considerably smaller Earth than it actually is.

The reason his sailors grew fractious was not because they were afraid of "falling off the edge" but because they were afraid of running out of fresh water and food before reaching land! (A reasonable fear. If the Americas had not conveniently lain in their path, and there had been nothing but water between them and China, they would have died of thirst before ever getting there.)

So, direct experience helps...but yes, it can be misinterpreted sometimes.

I think what really scares people about planes is that the passenger has no control over the situation whatsoever...and the crashes frequently kill everyone on board. You're surrendering yourself to fate when you step on an airplane, and people don't like to do that. I'm surprised how few air crashes there are, considering how many planes are in the air every day. They must be very well trained and organized indeed.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:04 PM

Regarding the Flat Earth Society: I always thought they were a great put-on. I remember seeing a representative of that organization being interviewed on TV many years ago, about the time the first astronauts were going into space. I could swear the guy was wearing a fake mustache or some other semi-obvious disguise. I don't know who he really was, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't who he claimed to be.

The interviewer was one of your typical TV hosts who had no particular expertise in science. I think this might have been on the Today Show or something like it. The interviewer asked the Flat Earth guy how it was possible, if the earth was flat, for astronauts to orbit around it. The Flat Earth guy demonstrated, with a flat polar map, how the astronaut was simply hovering in a circular path above the flat earth. I think he said the magnetic pull of the North Pole was what held the space capsule in orbit. He had an answer for every question the interviewer could throw at him.

I always suspected, although I can't prove it, that the Flat Earth Society was simply a group of scientists, or maybe scientific-minded amateurs, who were having a laugh at the expense of gullible reporters. At the same time, they were performing the very valuable service of demonstrating that the average man-on-the-street, or even reporter, doesn't know enough science to put together a coherent argument for how he KNOWS the earth is round. In other words, most people "know" the earth is round only because their teachers told them so, and they believed it!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:15 PM

"most people "know" the earth is round only because their teachers told them so, and they believed it!"

Wow, Jim!!! THAT is exactly the point I was trying to make in several of my posts on this thread...good stuff!

Now you've got me wondering if the guy at U. of T. was part of such a put-on. If so, he was willing to keep at it for lengthy periods of time.

If it is a well-organized put-on they ought to get a gold medal award for creative humour. I can readily see how the concept of a flat circular Earth can be used to glibly explain sunrise, sunset, orbital paths of satellites, etc...one wonders what is on the bottom of said flat Earth? Fascinating! We must get Captain Kirk and Spock to investigate this matter and deliver the definitive word on it. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

Little Hawk: I'll bet your professor wasn't wacky at all. By getting into arguments with students, he was forcing them to put together coherent logical arguments based on evidence. In other words, he was teaching them, by a clever approach, how to think like scientists.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 03:35 PM

That is a distinct possibility. I wasn't in any of his courses, so I can't say for sure. I was majoring in Spanish at the time.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Deda
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 06:09 PM

I've missed parts of this thread, but here are my own reasons for not ENTIREly trusting doctors:
1. In my HMO, my doctor gets about 15 minutes with me, 20 max. After that, she's supposed to be on to the next person (I know that she's under these orders because an acquaintance of mine is a doc for the same HMO.) During those 15 minutes she has to ask questions, listen, make a determination, explain it to me, AND enter data about all of this into my electronic record AT THE SAME TIME, not later. I'm over 50, and she's been my doctor for maybe 2 years, so there's no possible way she could know much about my history. I don't see her often enough! This is the HMO's standard, which seems to me the irreducible minimum excuse for treatment. I'm sure my doctor's a smart, decent woman but she's being crushed into a VERY bad system.

2. In order to get through medical training, she had to be intensely competitive, and she had to survive a couple of years of absolutely brutal overwork combined with constant sleep deprivation, which is a form of trauma used effectively for torture and brain-washing. If all of your schooling had taken place under conditions of high trauma and very low sleep, how well do you really think you'd remember it? What kind of effect would years of intense competitiveness and sleep deprivation and threat of loss of status, what would that do to you in the long term? What sort of a person would you be likely to be as a result of that? I think our method of training doctors is god-awful, pretty much guaranteed to turn out egotistical, self-absorbed, but admittedly BRAINY in a tunnel-vision way, robots.

3. In all those years of intense training, here are courses that are NOT generally taught, or weren't until quite recently: The mind-spirit-body connection. Nutrition (a pretty vast subject, with many competing schools of thought; you could put together at least a full year of study on this alone). Study of miraculous recoveries (that's a baffling ommission; if you're trying to get people well, wouldn't you want to study people who have gotten well?). What constitutes true health. The effects of love and/or prayer on illness and recovery. Bedside manner, or loving your patients, or caring about your fellow human being. Which alternative therapies work on what and why.

4. Now that she's out of med school and practicing, my doc and her HMO get bombarded with an endless flood of promotional material, free samples, videos, handouts, personal phone calls, from drug companies whose primary motivation is -- what, do you suppose? Raising our national level of wellbeing? Diminishing the number of obese or diabetic or drug-addicted people in the country? No, no no no no, silly -- it's MONEY, of course! Profits. The bottom line. I don't think that my doctor or, more important, her bosses the HMO, are immune to all that financial incentive to hand out the latest high-profit drugs like so much popcorn.

I have an acupuncturist whom I've seen off and on over ten years, who ALWAYS schedules me for a full 45 minutes to an hour, always actually talks to me at some length, knows me and my history and the names of my kids. She's very knowledgeable, has often prescribed Chinese herbs for various things for me, but doesn't pretend to be able to cure everything, and has sent me to traditional western medicos when necessary. Acupuncture has worked very well on me for many things--obviously not for everything. Who would you rather consult?

Here's a digression, about some of the really good things that doctors and western medicine have given us:
A Jewish Boycott: Comic Sam Levinson says: "It's a free world and you don't have to like Jews, but if you don't, I suggest that you boycott certain Jewish products, like...

The Wasserman Test for syphilis

Insulin, discovered by Dr. Minofsky

Chloral Hydrate, discovered by Dr. Lifreich

The Schick Test for Diphtheria

Vitamins, discovered by Dr. Funk

Streptomycin, discovered by Dr. Woronan

Polio Pill by Dr. Sabin

Polio Vaccine by Dr. Jonas Salk.

Says Levinson: "You want to be mad at us? Be mad at us! But I'm telling you, you ain't going to feel so good."

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't people trust doctors?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:31 PM

Deda - Excellent points all around! I believe you have hit on the key issue....the problem isn't with the people who become doctors...it's with the ruthlessly competitive money-driven system in which they become doctors.

And that is the problem with just about everything else in modern society too. People are not being served. Nature is not being honored. Money is being served. If you've got a lot of it, expect the red carpet treatment. If you don't, well, too bad...

- LH