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Subject: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:58 AM Can anyone give me a line-by-line *literal* translation of Amhran na bhFiainn? I thought my Irish was pretty good, but I'm foxed by some of the phrasings here. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,Mikey joe Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:02 AM http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/eire/seodhibh.htm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:25 AM As I've always understood it the Irish words are the translation, with the song being written in the English, not the other way round. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,Mikey joe Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:26 AM As far as i know McGrath you are correct the song written by Peadar Kearney. An uncle (i think) of Brendan & Domnic Behan |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:38 AM Correct, last two posters. But it's still interesting to have as verbatim as possible a translation of the Irish/Gaelic words back into English just to see how the sense may have been changed to fit the metre and rhyme.
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: beachcomber Date: 14 Jun 02 - 03:38 PM I can offer:-
We are soldiers of destiny, who are under obligation to Ireland. Beach |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:29 PM Bearna Baol isn't so much a placename as "the gap of danger". Thanks for the rest, it makes clear some of this stuff. Thanks, feathers. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Jun 02 - 07:55 PM It makes it sound like the literal translations of those slogans from Communist Conferences and so forth that used to make people roll around scornfully. Maybe thgose slgans weren't so funny after all in the originbal. It just goes to show that literal translations need to be kept in their place, which can be a useful place, but very limited.
I can't really see any significant differences in meaning from Peader Kearney's original. Except that it sets out to remove the ambiguity about the actual meaning of "Some have come from a land beyond the sea" - I mean, is that a referance to returning volunteers from the Irish diaspora, or to oppressors from England? The original leaves that wide open, and I'm not sure that the idea mightn't have been to mean both at the same time. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: beachcomber Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:21 PM Yeh, but it says in Irish "Buinn d'ar slua "(sorry can't render irish writing correctly) which, if my schoolboy Irish is correct translates as " a section (or troop?) of OUR army" . would that be correct McGrath ? beach. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:31 PM Exactly, but that's how the fella doing the translation into Irish understood it; in itself it doesn't necessarily tell us what Peader Kearney meant in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:08 AM I'm a bit hazy about some of the parts of speech - for instance, "Seo libh canaigh Amhran na bhFiann" - what's that "canaigh"? Is it the ... dammit, what do you call that verb form - "to speak"? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,Mikey Joe Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:17 AM JTT "We'll sing the Soldiers Song" |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: Declan Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:24 AM I think Cainig' is a shortened form of cainigi which is the plural imperative of the verb cain which means to sing - I think the original was "we'll chant a soldier's song". I don't want to be too picky because I think beachcomber has done a good job on the translation, but there are a few things I'm not sure about... The 'Soldiers of Destiny' translation of Fianna Fail for example I think is a mistranslation, though its quite widely used as a (slightly prejorative) nickname for the political party of the same name. Fodhla is an ancient name for Ireland and I think the Fail here is derived from this name and means soldiers of Irelad (but I might be wrong). Again the English version is just Soldiers are we - no mention of destiny there. Le gean air Gael chun bais no saol I always took to mean to live or die with a love for the Gaels (gean is definitely a word that means love in Irish). |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: Declan Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:31 AM On the sbject of the Buion dar slua, assuming that the English version that I know is the Peadar Kearny orignal (and I'm not sure of this) it was orignally "some have come" which might leave it open to McGrath's interpretation or at least some ambiguity. However, in context, coming immediately after "Soldiers are We, who've pledged our lives for Ireland" this might be stretching it a bit. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:35 AM I support your hunch about canaíg' being an imperative, Decko. That shortened form of the imperative is used in the Irish army as the standard form of verbs when used as words of command for drill movements. My only slight doubt about it is that it leaves the "seo libh" a bit hanging. It could be a mispronounced and subsequently misspelt gerund (ainmfhocal) "seo libh canadh.." inviting those present to sing the song. As to who is coming over the sea, McG, I think that the translator made an assumption which was legitimate in the circumstances, particularly within the constraints of rhyme and metre. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 02 - 08:27 AM Aha. So "Seo libh canaig" is "Here with us, chant" - the "chant" being an order - gwan, chant, willya. "Buionn dar slua" seems to be "a hosting of that band" (in the sense of a band of comrades, not a band of Mudcatters playing their band-jos). |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jun 02 - 05:52 PM One reason I've a supicion that Peader Kearney might have had in mind "some have come" as referring to the English in their role as invader, rather than the Irish Diaspora as allies, is because that chimes in with the way that the archetype of Soldier's Songs, the Marseillaise, is written. He'd had to have had it in the back of hi mind.
But the other meaning is there to be read as well, and it's probably a better idea to pay that more attention - a nod of friendship towards the Diaspora, rather than a gesture of defiance towards a sometime oppressor. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,JTT Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:00 AM Umm... I've *always* understood "Some have come/From a land beyond the waves [GOD BLESS THEM]" (as it's usually sung by republicans when they sing it in English) as referring to English people who joined the cause or immigrated to Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,Mikey joe Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:34 AM JTT I admit I've very very rarely heard it sung in English but I would still find this notion of "they" being English coming to assist as unlikely. However that is not to say that it is incorrect. as I am wrong more often than not. Mj |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: Declan Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:50 AM At least three very prominent leaders of the rebellion were born overseas P H Pearse (England), James Connolly (Scotland) and Eamonn DeValera (US). The reference might also refer to people who had been trained as soldiers and fought in WW1 returning with their military experience ? Anyone know what date it was first written ? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,greg stephens Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:31 AM Erskine Childers (an Englishman I think) went over to help...nd got shot for his pains. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:07 PM Erskine Childers (whose moither was Irish) was of course shot by the Free State Government - the charge being possession of a revolver, which he'd never even fired. He had been given the revolver by Michael Collins - who was dead himself by that time.
Of course Peader Kearney wrote A Soldier's Song years before all that. Insofar as "some have come" has that meaning, he'd have been thinking primarily about American Fenians I imagine.
Does anyone know who did the translation into the Irisg anyway? I suppose it might have been Peader Kearney himself, in which case it would settle what the primary meaning of that phrase was anyway, since the Irish version is clear enough. He wrote the song in 1907, and only started learning Irish the next year (according to Seamus De Burca's biography of Kearney - which has a set of great songs at the back, incidentally.) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:21 PM Totally irrelevant, but in the spirit of on-line pedantry I can't resist it, McG: the pistol which Childers had was an automatic, not a revolver ;-) I think it was made by the Belgian FN company, by the way, and if I'm wrong I hope I haven't started a major new urban myth. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: GUEST,Phil Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:24 PM "some have come from across the waves" - I always thought of De Valera, who was born in the US. And I suppose there would be others of Irish parentage and emigrants who returned. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: Mikey joe Date: 21 Jun 02 - 05:08 AM i doubt the reference is to any of the leaders mentioned as the song was written in 1907 (i think) which would predate the rising and the events leading up to it. I still don't think American Fenians although more credible IMHO is correct. It may simply be returning emmigrants who have money made in the States and are returning to suport "the cause" Mj |
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Subject: RE: Help: Literal translation of Amhran na bhFiann From: Declan Date: 21 Jun 02 - 05:22 AM I found a book at home that gives the name of the translator as Liam O Rinn, but no other details. At least this confirms what we already knew : (a) the song was originally written in English and later translated and (b) that it wasn't Peadar Kearney himself who did the translation. A couple of other questions spring to mind : What army were these soldiers members of ? 1907 predates the founding of both the Irish Volunteers and the Citizen Army. I presume the IRB were active around then. What was the date of the translation and adoption of this song as the Irish national anthem ? I'd be interesteed in knowing whether Dev's Fianna Fail party (founded in 1926 ?) took its name from the national anthem or vice versa (or was it from some other common source). Anyone know ? An attempt by a non Fianna Fail coalition government to change the first line to "Sinne Laochra Fail" never really took off. |
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