BS: 100 thousand welcomes

Subject: 100 thousand welcomes
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 12:02 PM

I Gaelic it is said Caed Mile Failte In Scottish is it Cued Mile Failte do they both mean the same thing and how are they pronounced in , you should pardon the questionin english or american

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:59 PM

That's céad!!!!!!!!not caed, which means Permission!!

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: tremodt
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:37 PM

I am an american if i was Irish I woul;d have know that thank you for the correction

ron

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: diesel
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 05:52 PM

Hi Roisin

Cead = one hundred + pronounced "kayed" (as in Played) Mile = one thousand + prounced "meala"(meal + Ah) Failte is welcome and pronounced "fallcha" (Fall + ch + ah)

As for how to put the accent above the letter e I don't know - (computers ! ) but its called in Irish a "Fada" which means Long and draws out the length of the vowel sound.

I've failed every irish exam in school - and there are loads on the mudcat who are fluent and can help better.

As for the scottish Pronunciation - near enough the same - but that's a guess as I can sometimes barely understand their english

Anyway enjoy - hope you learn more

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 06:13 PM

Well explained Diesel - doesn't it sound great? - it's the first thing you see when you land at Dublin airport.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: diesel
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 06:24 PM

Its better when you realise the language is still a spoken live language. Though sad to think how much we have lost.

My favourite is in things like place names "Dublin - Dubh Linn - the black pool - where the river Poddle meets the river Liffey giving a deep water at the site of the citys establishment.

In Scotland they have the Cairngorm mountains or "the blue stone mountains"

Such a descriptive way of things

Derry - Doire - The Oak tree, Belfast - Beal Feirste - mouth of the river ......and on the language goes - or went

rgds

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 11:57 PM

G'day Diesel,

Most of the accents you need to wite correctly accented Gaelic ... or French ... or German ... &c ... are in the "second half" of the standard "ASCII Set" of letters &c on your computer. The "first half" is what you get by typing on the keyboard ... to get the others needs some simple code.

The codes I use are the "alt key" set (there are other ways to get the same thing). As ome example, to accent céad (just as I would accent café), I type 'c' then hold down "alt" while typing '0233' to get the 'é' ... then type 'a' and 'd'. There should be tables of this in textbooks somewhere but, if you can't find one, PM me an address and I will e-mail you an MS Word file I created of the second half characters and their codes.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: 'alt' numerical codes for ASCII accented letters
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 01:40 AM

If your computer has a "character map" accessory or utility (or perhaps "character set") this will fairly easily give you the numerical codes for the "alt" approach Bob Bolton is talking about.

Here are some of the more useful ones at least when writing to and from American computers. (Somebody tell me if any of these don't work with normal Western European character sets. People using other keyboards or character encodings, or who have selected oddball fonts as their defaults will likely not see a lot of these as intended, at least if you use the "alt" method.) —

Bob Bolton already gave you
é (e acute) Alt+0233
Here are some others:
€ £ ¥ (euro, pound & yen symbols) Alt+0128, Alt+0163 & Alt+0165
' ' (left and right single quotes) Alt+0145 & Alt+0146
" " (left and right double quotes) Alt+0147 & Alt+0148
• (a fairly substantial buller) Alt+0149
– — (en-dash and em-dash) Alt+0150 & Alt+0151
¡ ¿ (Spanish inverted exclamation and question marks) Alt+0161 & Alt+0191
© ® ™ (copyright, registered trademark, trademark) Alt+0169, Alt+0174 & Alt+0153
Ich weiß nicht (German s-z ligature = ss) Alt+0223
à la carte (a grave) Alt+0224
Bogotá (a acute) Alt+0225
São Paulo (a tilde) Alt+0227
Handel (né Händel) (a umlaut) Alt+0228
Blessèd art thou (e grave) Alt+0232
moi-même (e circumflex) Alt+0234
the Brontë girls ("e umlaut", a misnomer) Alt+0235
façade (c cedilla) Alt+0231
Encyclopædia Britannica (a-e ligature) Alt+0230
Loftleiðir (Icelandic airline) (edh) Alt+0240
Così fan tutte (i grave) Alt+0236
Líolaind is my name in Gaelic guise (i acute) Alt+0237
naïveté ("i umlaut") Alt+0239
piñata (n tilde) Alt+0241
Ramón (o acute) Alt+0242
Köln (German for Cologne) (o umlaut) Alt+0246
Købnhavn (Danish for Copenhagen) (o slash) Alt+0248
Gesù Bambino (u grave) Alt+0249
Búsqueda en Google (u acute) Alt+0250
17 août 1851 (u circumflex) Alt+0251
Deutschland über alles (u umlaut) Alt+0252
etc. etc.
I'm getting carried away. "Umlaut" is a misnomer for the two dots over some vowels; technically these are called a "diaresis" (plural diareses), and umlaut refers to the kind of vowel sound that the diaresis usually signals in German and some other languages (e.g. Finnish). Capital letters are also available, starting with Àine (Alt+0192) and ending with Vilhjálmur Þ. Vilhjálmsson (Alt+0222). Here's a link that shows the ones that are not accented letters (plus a couple of the accented letters) in case you haven't been able to find your Character Map: ASCII chart tutorial. Remember that the extended ASCII character set was designed primarily to allow Americans (and the odd stray Englishman) to communicate electronically with our cold-war-era NATO allies, hence the accommodation of Icelandic at the expense of, say, Polish or Hungarian. Of course, lacking Turkish letters like ğ, it was really only good for the Northern and Western European allies, but still, it proved quite popular. (I'm guessing about the history of ASCII, doing it off the top of my head, not on any documentary basis.)

It's getting late. I'm rambling. Hope some of that helps somebody.

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: tremodt
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 09:48 PM

again my hats off to the catters

thanks for the help

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: GUEST,Mike in NZ
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:14 AM

If Dublin is 'Dubh Linn' Where is 'Ath Claith' which i seem to remember is on all signposts to Dublin. My spelling may be wrong.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Declan
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:40 AM

Baile Atha Cliath (the town of the ford of the wattles) is the official Gaelic name for Dublin Town(City), but Dublin is as said above also derived from a Gaelic name meaning Black Pool. They were originally (as far as I know) two different settlements along the banks of the River Liffey, which merged into one city - they weren't very far apart to begin with (maybe half a mile). Atha Cliath without the Baile means Dublin as in Condae Atha Cliath (County Dublin).

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: GUEST,shonagh
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 07:48 AM

Well, in Scottish Gaelic its Ceud Mile Failte, i think!

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:01 AM

Declan: any idea why Atha Cliath instead of Dublin? A lot of English-type placenames in Ireland were changed back to Irish originals after independence for obvious reasons, but why Dublin? That seems a perfectly respectable Irish name. I see your explanation that they were originally two different places close together, but that doesnt explain why the commonly used name was replaced. Got a theory?

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Declan
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 08:11 AM

Don't really know but I suspect it was because the Dublin name had been aglacised and was very much associated with British rule in Ireland. Both names seem to have survived a long time.

Dublin was also I think originally a Viking settlement where as B.A.C was originally built by the locals (or at least earlier settlers) and may therefore have been deemed to be a more pleasing name to those standardising on Irish placenames, who would have tended to be very nationalistic in their outlook.

I have some books at home which might be more enlightning here and if I discover anything there I'll let you know. Meantime there's probably someone out there with the correct answer.

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: diesel
Date: 25 Jun 02 - 11:03 PM

Both names are perfectly acceptable in use today - The BAC one being the official name - but I can't say as to why.

Dubh linn - later anglicised to Dublin (easier to pronounce) is the older name refering to the place where the city later grew around, But BAC refers to the Town of the ford of the hurdles... so one is a spot the other a town... sounds a good theory for a pub discussion anyhow.

If anybody is seriously interested though - and has serious hours to spend reading (I'll leave the pronunciations to yourselves) check out the link below for Dublin history ....seriously good site

Diesel

http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Haruo
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 12:32 AM

Not clear why "Dublin" is any easier to pronounce than "Dubh linn". Easier to spell, especially if you only know English, that I'll grant, but surely either spelling can be read aloud in either fashion. BAC (do people ever say "bee ay see"?), on the other hand, is surely easier to pronounce in Irish than in English.

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Declan
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 06:14 AM

Did some reading on this last night. These are probably not definitive answers but the books said as follows :

Ath Cliath (ford of the hurdles (or wattles)) is actually (according to one book at least) a more ancient name than Dubh Linn. The ford in question formed part of one of the five main roads in ancient Ireland which radiated out from Tara in county Meath, which was in effect the ancient capital of Ireland and seat of the high kings. There does not appear to have been a big settlement there at the time, but the ford being part of such a major road - leading to what is now Dublin Bay, would probably be well known throughout Ireland.

Incidentally the ford is thought to have been where the current Father Mathew bridge at Church St now stands. This is adjacent to the Brazen Head, reputed to be the oldest Pub in Dublin dating from 12th Century. This was once a great place for traditional music and is still a music venue.

The name Dubh Linn also goes way back and it is thought that Eblana, referred to by Ptolemy in 3rd century AD, is derived from this name. Apparently the reference by Ptolemy was not to a city as such, but to an area inhabited by people he called the Eblani. This area (the pool was around the site of the current Olympia theatre in Dame St (and not that far from the ford)) was inhabited by the Norse in the Ninth Century, who called it Dyfflin - obviously another derivative - this (or the original name) became anglacised to Dublin over the years.

So the Gaels would probably always have referrred to the place as Ath Cliath, and the strangers called it Dublin, and so it remains. But I'm sure there are many other versions of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: Escamillo
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 06:50 AM

Complemeting the great information given by Liland:

I have a standard American keyboard (I hate the repositioning of lots of keys in so-called Spanish keyboards) and my setting is "Language= English USA" and "Layout= USA International". With these settings I have all accented Spanish vowels by pressing SINGLE QUOTE and then the vowel, example 'a = á , 'e = é , etc.

The letter ñ is ~n , and Ñ is ~N, and ü is "u (to type 'a so you see it as singlequote+a, I simply press singlequote, a space, and then the a)

French accents like è ò can be typed by pressing the grave accent (left to right) which is located left to the "1", and then the vowel.

ã õ can be gotten by ~a , ~o

Un abrazo - Andrés (in the troubled Buenos Aires)

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 07:10 AM

Back to the question: ce/ad (that / is what I'm using to represent the si/ne fada, a longer version of the acute accent) goes over the e in ce/ad, meaning "100".

Cead, with no accent, means permission.

Just a small clarification - the fada (si/ne fada means literally "long stretch", and the phrase is usually shortened to "fada") doesn't *quite* lengthen the vowel sound, but changes it slightly. For example cead is pronounced cyadd, but ce/ad is pronounced cayd.

Subject: RE: BS: 100 thousand welcomes
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 26 Jun 02 - 11:16 AM

Roisín - I don't think anyone answered the question about Scots Gaelic.
Céad míle fáilte (Irish) and Ceud mile fàilte both mean "A hundred thousand welcomes"
The pronounciation is very similar in both languages. In Scotland the first vowel sound of "Fàilte" is held longer, more drawn out, than it is in Irish. Also in Scotland the word "Ceud" is more distinctly two syllables, something like "kay-ud" or "key-ud" said very quickly with the emphasis on the first syllable. (Can someone tell me if this almost 2 syllable sound is called a 'dipthong' or is that something else?). Whether you have more of a long a or long e sound depends on where in Scotland the speaker comes from. You may also see "ciad" to represent the "key-ud" type pronounciation, but in modern usage I believe 'ciad' is reserved to distinguish 'first' from 'hundreth' (in Irish we say and write 'chéad' for 1rst and 'céad' for 100th)
'Cead' means permission in both languages and is pronounced crisply with a short a sound.
I also don't think anyone answered your whole question, focussing instead on the pronounciation and correct spelling of the first word. Now I really hate doing these amateur phonetics, which we can all interpret in different ways. Also you need the rhythm and flow, you need to hear how the whole phase sounds. You may be able to find someone who can confidentially say this well-known phrase - without necessarily being a fluent speaker of Irish or Gaelic. Meanwhile, míle has a long i and a short e, something like me-lah and fáilte sounds something like faul-tcheh/tyeh. In all the words the stress in on the first syllable.


Diesel - Béal (mouth, beul in Sc. Gaelic, also has a 'sine fada'.
Bob, Liland, et al. we have several ways of word-processing the 'diacritical' letters. They don't all work on all systems. With the computer and applications I am using, Alt 0233 does give me é, but so does Alt+130 or ctrl+alt+e. For short messages I use what is simplest, but since sometimes these letters don't show up on the webpage the way they do on the screen.See Aili£ 쳌anai[sic] for an example So when I submit lyrics I usually use the find and replace functions to put in the more unwieldy codes such as &#233 = é. We have had a long discussion of this issue the fada in Irish vowels, Joe Offer provided a link to a 'ISO Latin 1 Character Entities and HTML Escape Sequence Table'
I remember someone - but not his name nor the details of the explanation - explaining why these types of codes are the most reliable. But I can't find that discussion. It may possibly have been in 'help' rather than in the 'forum'