Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Historical Children's Songs

GUEST,Wilco48 17 Jul 02 - 01:22 PM
greg stephens 17 Jul 02 - 01:26 PM
greg stephens 17 Jul 02 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Desdemona at work 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM
masato sakurai 17 Jul 02 - 01:50 PM
Micca 17 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 17 Jul 02 - 03:34 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 17 Jul 02 - 03:39 PM
Jacob B 17 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM
greg stephens 17 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM
SharonA 17 Jul 02 - 04:55 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 17 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM
Genie 17 Jul 02 - 08:19 PM
Genie 17 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM
Genie 17 Jul 02 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 18 Jul 02 - 01:44 AM
Genie 18 Jul 02 - 01:51 AM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Souter 18 Jul 02 - 04:55 AM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 05:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jul 02 - 05:15 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 02 - 05:26 AM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 05:38 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 02 - 05:42 AM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 05:55 AM
The Walrus at work 18 Jul 02 - 08:46 AM
SharonA 18 Jul 02 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,wilco48 18 Jul 02 - 09:59 AM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM
GUEST 18 Jul 02 - 10:18 AM
SharonA 18 Jul 02 - 10:23 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Genie 18 Jul 02 - 04:06 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,JTT 18 Jul 02 - 04:31 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,JTT 18 Jul 02 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,JTT 18 Jul 02 - 05:19 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 06:27 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 06:46 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 07:59 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 02 - 08:37 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 09:48 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 02 - 11:11 PM
delphinium 18 Jul 02 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 19 Jul 02 - 12:11 AM
Kaleea 19 Jul 02 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,wilco48 19 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,JTT 19 Jul 02 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,JTT 19 Jul 02 - 12:23 PM
The Walrus at work 19 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM
Micca 19 Jul 02 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,adavis@truman.edu 20 Jul 02 - 12:42 AM
GUEST,JTT 20 Jul 02 - 04:53 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 20 Jul 02 - 01:27 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 13 Aug 02 - 08:57 PM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Aug 02 - 11:53 AM
Mrrzy 14 Aug 02 - 03:24 PM
Mrrzy 14 Aug 02 - 03:39 PM
GUEST 06 Dec 03 - 12:04 AM
Desert Dancer 06 Dec 03 - 12:19 AM
keberoxu 19 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,Wilco48
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:22 PM

I'm putting together a program for children, that I will take into their classrooms. I'm looking for old songs that have great historical significance. This would be for US History. Examples are: Abolitionist's song, Civil War Songs, folk snogs that would have been popular in Colonial USA, songs about the 1849 California Gold Rush, songs about Native Americans, etc. I need about fifty songs for kids age eight to fourteen. I hope to have program of about five weeks that I could do in period costume. I especially enjoy tying the history of the song into US history. Examples would be the Potatoe Famine in Ireland, and the mass exodus to the US that resulted from it. A story about the Potatoe famine would be great!! The idea is to show kids that songs are historical oral artifacts that they can "bring back to life" to better understand their ancestry. Ultimately, the idea is to show the US as the "great meltin pot" of cultures. I'm Irish, English, French, Spanish, Welsh, Scottish, Algonquin, and Cherokee. So, about anything works for me.

Thanks!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:26 PM

Do you know the Burl Ives number "What was your name in the States?". The background to that seems to explain a lot about one chunk of USA history.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:32 PM

I'd like to experience some of those folk snogs popular in Colonial America.(Maybe that isnt funny in America, do you snog over there? Maybe its only an English custom).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM

Most Americans aren't familiar with the term "snog", but it's so wonderfully descriptive! The closest thing in the argot is "neck", which isn't really quite the same thing, you know?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 01:50 PM

There're some related threads on folk song and history:

Use of Folk Music in History Education

Fav. Historical Story-songs

Distortion of History in Folk Song

AMER. HISTORY IN SONG w/pix - nice site

Other link:

A History of Ireland in Song

~Masato the Link-Provider


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Micca
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 02:34 PM

if you want to know what a snog is try here


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:34 PM

David Crockett, known to almost every American child, wrote a poem, "Farewell To The Mountains," since set to music, that should be included in any historical program including poetry and music.
He wrote it after disappointment in politics and his re-election bid to Congress, and prior to his move westward to Texas to start a new life. His death at the Alamo, fighting alongside supporters of the Texas Republic, has been chronicled in movies as well as in the history books.

The haunting and beautiful poem was posted by Malcolm Douglas in thread 38359, 30 Aug. 2001. Farewell

The song is taken from Chapter 11 of Abbott's biography: Crockett

Strange it is that this important song is not in the DT.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:39 PM

The David Crockett poem, "Farewell," also was posted in thread 46834, under Lyr. Add: CROCKETT'S FAREWELL.: Farewell


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Jacob B
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM

Check out this History In Song site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM

History is bound up with economics and industry, and peoples attitudes and experiences can be found very accessibly in folksongs.I would really recommend:
Cotton: Roll the Cotton Down
Sugar: There ain't no more cane on the Brazos
Tobacco: Tobacco is an Indian Weed


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 04:55 PM

Wilco: It sounds as if you are looking specifically for songs that were written and were popular at (or immediately after) the time that these historical events occurred; is that correct?

The reason I ask is that there is a beautifully haunting song called "Kilkelly". It was copyrighted in 1983, but its lyrics are comprised of excerpts from letters written to the songwriter's great-great-grandfather in the US by his father in Ireland from the 1860s to the 1890s. It's a very personal glimpse into the pain of the families separated by that "mass exodus to the US" of which you speak, so even though it's not a song that has the "great historical significance" that a song of that period would have, I think it's still worth considering for your program.

Here's a link to the song "Kilkelly" (in Mudcat's "Digital Tradition" files): /@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3394


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 05:03 PM

Snog made me think about Bundling. Don't know any songs about it, but there ought to be!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 08:19 PM

How about Ring Around The Rosy? I understand that this song and game originated at the time of the bubonic plague and referred to half the population being wiped out and to dead bodies being burned (ashes) to keep the disease from spreading and maybe to a circular rash or something that was a symptom of the disease. I think this is discussed in another thread here.

Genie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 08:24 PM

You might find some relevant info in this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Genie
Date: 17 Jul 02 - 08:31 PM

and this thread, too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 01:44 AM

The "ring around the rosy" thing is an academics' urban legend -- like "gospel means 'good news'" or "Einstein flunked math."(I have promoted each of these myself, often in a classroom, until I learned better!). The title line doesn't describe buboes, these unwashed folk didn't smell much worse sick than they did well, and flowers wouldn't have been much help (nor much available in the winter, when the plague did its most thorough destruction). It's a good yarn, and I know this is a killjoy thing to do, but duty demands, etc.

Best,

Adam


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Genie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 01:51 AM

Thanks for the info, Adam. I had read an oblique reference somewhere to its being an urban legend, but, like other legends, it is often printed in seemingly authentic places.

Do you happen to know anything about the real history of the song? Does it go back to the middle ages or is it much newer?

Genie

PS, Einstein DIDN'T flunk math? I knew that Washington did not have wooden teeth, but I didn't know about old Al.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:31 AM

well Adam, I'm all for exploding myths, we're all grownup and should be able to face the truth(ha ha ha ha ). But...what's the new theory about gospel, if it doesn't come from "good news" in Old English? That seems a pretty sound etymology to me, what is your theory?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,Souter
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:55 AM

No, I believe that 'gospel' comes from the Greek for truth. Let's check a dictionary....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:06 AM

My Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology is perfectly confident about "good news"(Old English godspel). But they don't know everything in Oxford (though they may think they do). I'm interested in hearing alternatives. What is the Greek for "truth", for example?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:15 AM

From "Chambers Twentieth Century"
gospel the teaching of Christ /snip../ [OE godspel(l) , a translation of L. evangelium-god,, good (with shortened vowel being understood as God, God) and spel(l), story,]

This seems to accept that its derivation is either Good story, or God's story. The former can quite easily be understood as "Good News"

The fact that tales are apocryphal doesn't always make them untrue!

Nigel


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:26 AM

It is obvious that you have not been active in the United States educational system for a couple of decades.

They will "eat you live, and spit out the pieces" if you attempt to use the melting pot analogy; it is offensive to many minorities who have "lost their identity" in the amalgom of American homogenization. Many prefer the "Salad Bowl" analogy where each piece retains its own distict "tomato-ness" or "onion-ness" with the loss of distinction; and others are even offended by this.

There are some other problems with your approach; you better run this past district administrators first.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:38 AM

Trouble is,tomatoes and onions cant live together and have children. People can, which tends to blur things. It's possible to be aware of two cultures in your background, but when it gets to 4, 8, 16, 32......you need a lot of brain cells.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:42 AM

Perhaps, if we had some black, yellow or brown mudcats they could explain the offence in better terms.. But, the melting pot will boil over if you use it in many classrooms with a teacher under 40 years old.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:55 AM

Melting-pots boil over. The contents of salad bowls wilt. New metaphors needed! And GUEST: please use a name: some people on Mudcat get very edgy with anonymous postings owing to past bad experiences. Potentially acrimonious subjects need careful handling.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 08:46 AM

If you want a different mataphor, try a fruit cake, the rasins, saltanas, candied peels and cherries are all recognisable, but still an intimate part of the cake (and what's more, the nuts end up on top).

Walrus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 09:08 AM

The "melting pot" analogy may not be politically correct today, but the concept IS a part of American history. That was the attitude that was held and promoted for decades. I think that the analogy should be presented in its historical context, not presented as an attitude widely held today BUT not ignored or glossed over, either.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,wilco48
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 09:59 AM

Thanks for all the help. Some wonderfullll ideas!!!!! Keep em' coming!! Sorry about any "politics." I'm over 50, and getting a PhD in American History. I like the analogy of a "melting pot." The American experience is all of these cultural differences. Like I said in the original post, I'm Irish, English, French, Spanish, Algonquin (Native American), Cherokee (Native American), Scottish, etc. I'm a typical "American." If I had an ethnic ax to grind, I'd have a lot of grinding to do!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM

Good point SaronA. Made me think a lot.The pendulum swings between "melting-pot/fusion" and"salad-bowl/separate but equal" have been going on since the year dot. Walk down any street round here and your eyes will show you how distinct physical characteristics have developed in different populations. Listen to music from round the world and your ears will tell you the huge differences in sounds and structurs.
But equally well, you don't need ethno-musiclogical ears to listen to highlife or reggae and hear a totally seamless fusion between European harmony and African sounds and structures. And another look down the same street will reveal mixed families and children who don't follow the patterns you'd previously been noticing. The fact is both theories, and both practises, are universal. neither is more "normal" or "natural" or "better". Any attempt by any group to promote one at the expense of theother is doomed to failure, and cause trouble along the way. Pendulums swing, swings and roundabouts even out. You may get on a roll at roulette by betting on the evens for a while because you think you've spotted a pattern, but it won't last.The odds will come back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 10:18 AM

Cram it Greg, if I used my cookie name - the audience would be even more edgy.

Wilco, it is obvious you are not an educator, and out of touch with today's kids; what diploma-mill is generating this so-called PHD?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 10:23 AM

Thanks, Greg; great post!

Here's a now-politically-incorrect but historically significant song, about immigration to California from China in the late 1800s, when Chinese were brought in by the boatload as a cheap-labor force: TWELVE HUNDRED MORE

Then there's the more recent flood of people to California from the other direction – during the Dust Bowl era – immortalized in this Woody Guthrie song: DO RE MI


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 03:59 PM

Wilco, ignore the extremists who wish to obliterate the past. Political correctness has become political intolerance! The past must be understood and taught. I am a product of the melting pot as are most of the people in North America including many American "Afro-Americans." To repudiate that is laughable.

I guess that the onions and tomatoes in my genetic makeup are happy being mushed up together a la olla podrida (no gas pains). If any prefer to be in a salad, they would have a hard time re-sorting themselves. Looking at my genealogy, they might even make mistakes as to what to call themselves.

Happily, Cupid is still stirring the melting pot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:06 PM

I still wanna know where Ring Around The Rosey came from.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM

"Carrot Greens," a Mormon remake of "Turnip Greens," is a useful historical song for children. The story is that the pioneer Mormons at times subsisted mostly on carrots- for a change, they ate the greens. It doesn't seem to have been posted.

Lyr. Add: CARROT GREENS

The other night I had a dream,
I dreamt that I could fly;
I flapped my wings like a buzzard
And I flew into the sky.
And there I met St. Peter,
I met him at the gate;
He asked me to dine with him
And this is what we ate.

Chorus:
Oh- Carrot greens,
Good old carrot greens;
Corn bread and buttermilk
And good old carrot greens.

The other night I had a dream,
I dreamt that I had died;
I flapped my wings like an eagle,
And flew into the skies.
And there I saw Moroni,
A-sitting on a spire;
He asked me up and said we'd sup
On this most humble fare.

Mormon Songs From The Rocky Mountains, ed. by T. E. Cheney, 1968 (1983), pp. 143-144.
@humor @Mormon @folk


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:31 PM

There are few songs about the 1840s famine, or about any famine; people don't remember a time of shame in song. There are also very few stories about that time; my family is one of the few I know to have any family stories about it, even though I know, for instance, that one friend, whose family are all very high achievers - CEOs of multinationals and the like - is from a family who were literally put out on the side of the road to live in the ditch, evicted by their landlord, in 1847.

About the only two songs I could suggest are an American one, "Over Here" - sung by emigrants who had left Ireland starving:

Oh, the praties they are small
Over here
Oh the praties they are small
Over here
Oh, the praties they are small
And they dig them in the fall
And we eat them skins and all
Over here...

and so on; the meaning isn't exactly transparent until you've smelled the stink of your livelihood and your children's food rotting in the fields and in the clamps, and seen people lie dead with grass spilling from their mouths, or seen people too weak to run a boat out, starving because the inshore waters were all fished out and even the seaweed torn from the shores.

Another song, in Irish, is Na Conneries, a tragic curse-song, putting a curse on a family called the Conneries, who had informed on a neighbouring family and had them deported to New South Wales; a beautiful tune, though the words are chilling.

Oh, and of course I'm forgetting... is it "Johnny Seoghe"? Somebody Seoighe anyway - that's a song pleading with a sickening mixture of grovelling praise and desperation, of the landlord's agent - there's one line partly in English - "A Mhister Joyce, ta an Workhouse lan, is mo bhean is paisti ar taobh an tsraid" - "O Mr Joyce, the Workhouse is full, and my wife and my children by the side of the road".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 04:39 PM

Genie, this can be a long search, leading us ring around the rosy unless Malcolm or Masato pitch in.
The trad Ballad Index cites Gomme, 1898, a "non-ballad play party" song. Found in Britain, Ireland, N. Am.

North Carolina Folklore, Music of the Folksongs, vol. 5, p. 536, has this for "Ring Around the Rosy."

Ring, O ring, O Rosee,
A pocket full of posies;
One, two, three, four,
We'll all tumble down.
Tune "Hoch soll er leben," an old German drinking song.

The "ashes, ashes, we all fall down" is related to the plague of 1347-1350, but this has little support.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:13 PM

Another song you might like is a 19th-century song - After Aughrim. This commemorates the Battle of Aughrim in 1691, when the Irish were finally (for the moment) defeated. The Voice Squad have a nice version of it on Liam O'Flynn's album Out to an Other Side.

And about the same era - but this time actually an 18th-century song - is Eamonn a' Chnoic, where a woman is singing to her husband/lover/brother/whatever as he beats on the door outside, saying that though she will conceal him behind her skirts, they will both be quenched by the cannon's peal. The first lines, translated, mean: "Who is that outside, fever in his voice, beating on the closed door? It is Eamon of the Hill, who is drowned, cold and wet, from walking hidden in the hills and the glens".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 05:19 PM

Oh, and dammit, I'd forgotten the whole Aisling tradition - 18th-century sung poems, in which Ireland is visualised as a woman, sometimes young and beautiful, sometimes old, but always waiting for the poet to rescue her - and usually also waiting for Bonnie Prince Charlie, in various guises - An Buachall (the boy), Mac an Cheannaire (the Merchant's Son) and so on.

These were disguised as love songs, as singing a political song could get you hanged from the nearest bridge.

The best known is Roisin Dubh, translated as My Dark Rosaleen; the haunting tune of Roisin Dubh should be played to the children, though.

Padraig Pearse composed a 20th-century equivalent, Mo Gile Mear, addressing Bonnie Prince Charlie as "My swift hero", which is still sung with enthusiasm; Mary Black has a version of it, and there's bunches more.

Then if it's a boyish sort of song you're after, there's Priosun Cleann Meala (Clonmel Prison), where a boy waits, his hurley and ball stashed at the end of the bed, remembering the days when he was a sporting hero, for his hanging in the morning; this is sung to a tune supposed to be the original from which Streets of Laredo was taken, though it's apparently a common enough tune across Europe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 06:27 PM

"Lordy, how delicious! Eatin' goober peas." The Civil War song "Goober Peas" about peanuts was sung on both sides by hungry troops.
Lorena was sung by troops on both sides as they longed for home and their sweethearts. Any Foster songs, esp. "Hard Times."
The song "White Potatoes," written by a tenant farmer who lived through the great famine, and set to music by Paddy Moloney, is on the cd "Long Journey Home" from the "Irish in America" project. An excellent song about the famine that killed or exiled so many.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 06:46 PM

All this talk of emigrant/immigrant songs reminds me of a classic which I think is a must for your programme. It is an old English(and no doubt Irish and Scottish and Welsh as well) emigration song called variously "Chase/Hunt/Shoot the Buffalo". It is also well known in America(perhaps starte there?). Anyway it's got three totally different chunks of very important history.
(1) economic pressures to emigrate to America
(2) Buffalo hunting (eco connections etc etc)
(3) Attitudes(quite unpleasant) to the "wild and savage Indians".

And it's also a great song. What more could you want? A must, I reckon. I'm sure it will be in the Digitrad under one or other title. Or it might also be called "The Pleasant Ohio".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 07:59 PM

An old one about transportation of convicts to Virginia, "Virginia Lags," is in thread 2864: Virginia Lags
Greg, the title also is "The Banks of Ohio," and it has been called "The Buffalo" on broadsides.

Some good ones about slavery also in this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 08:37 PM

Dicho, I cant access your "Viginia Lags" song...I think the document is too big for me to read. But I'm a little suspicious..are you sure it's an old song? I ask because my impression is that we(UK) would have stopped sending convicts to Virginia at the time of our little dispute with America in 1776. And isn't "lag" a more modern piece of slang than that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 09:48 PM

Greg, "Virginia Lags" is the same (essentially) as "The Lads of Virginia," pub. London by H. Such, which is reproduced in Firth, C. H., 1915, "An American Garland." (Ballads 1563-1759)
1. Come all you young fellows wherever you be,
Come listen awhile and I will tell thee,
Concerning the hardships that we undergo,
When we get lagg'd to Virginia. (Seven verses)

Firth remarks" "'The Lads of Virginia' is another eighteenth century ballad, though, as in the previous case, a corrupt nineteenth century reprint seems to be the only version in existence." There is an Australian version, "Come all you gallant poachers,"

After writing this, I looked up "Lag." In the OED, the first instance cited of "lag" in the sense of convict under sentence of transportation, is 1812.
Perhaps the use of "lag" in the song is evidence of the "corruption" that is remarked by Firth, or, the term could be somewhat older, say 50 or more years older. I don't know why Firth assigned an "end" date to his ballads of 1759, but I would suspect he had some evidence.

An older Virginia song, published in 1685, is "A Voyage to Virginia, or The Valiant Souldier's Farewell To His Love" (reproduced in Firth).

Your post on "Shoot the Buffalo" reminded me that this title is also applied to a dance, which would be fun for the teacher to set up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 11:11 PM

The song and dance, "Shoot the Buffalo," are posted in thread 26594: Buffalo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: delphinium
Date: 18 Jul 02 - 11:48 PM

How about "Follow the Drinking Gourd" which describes the underground railroad route for slaves to escape from the deep south, the drinking gourd being the big dipper. There's an explanation of the "codes" for the route at http://www.madison.k12.wi.us/planetarium/ftdg1.htm

Also Yankee Doodle (pre-revolutionary), Dixie (Civil War), I've Been Working on the Railroad, Darling Clementine (California Gold Rush), The Erie Canal. Modern 8 to 14s might think themselves a bit too cool for these songs, but I bet they could be presented in a fun way, especially if different verses are explored, or you or the kids make up new verses. And that's another lesson, that oral "artefacts" are flexible and organic ...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 12:11 AM

Sorry to be slow replying. The "gospel" thing -- you can just quit when the explanation gets tedious (sounds of rapid clicking). "Gospel" meant "news/story of God;" "god" had a short "o" in Old English, virtually unchanged in MnE. "Good" was spelled the same ("god") but had a long vowel ("oh") which develops typically into the "oo" sound in MnE. So if it had meant "good news," it would have developed into "goospel." The confusion has to do with the Greek from which "gospel" was *very* loosely translated/derived/inspired: "eu" (good) + "angelion" (message/news) --> evangelion (the "v" is just a hiatus-bridge, keeps you from ripping your throat up in making a u-turn through your vowels). Yes, I can see this is pedantic, but somebody asked.

The "ring around the rosy" seems to have the earliest form as "ring a ring a ("of"?) roses," and there's variation in the lines (where American kids say "ashes, ashes" I've heard British chilluns say "a tissue, a tissue," but that's likely to be very modern). My best guess is, it's a children's carol or ring-dance, with the "rosie" some object or nominated person ("it") in the center -- cp. "here we go round the mulberry bush"). We can often find rational meaning behind apparent nonsense in children's lore, but hey, sometimes, there's a layer of irreducible nonsense. It frustrates the detective in me, but as a parent, I'm charmed.

Best,

Adam


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 02:16 AM

Re: The praties--I learned it from my (Irish) Grandad who told me that he learned it from a cousin (with quite a brouge!) who came over from Ireland when my mother was a child. He told me that "the Lord" is referring to the "Land Lord." Grandad sang it as follows:

Oh the praties they grow small,
over here, over here;
Oh the praties they grow small,
when we dig them in the fall;
And we eat them coats and all,
over here, over here.

Oh I wish that we were geese,
night and morn, night and morn;
oh I wish that we were geese,
for they fly and take their ease;
And they live and die in peace,
eatin' corn, eatin' corn.

Oh, we're trampled in the dust,
over here, over here;
Oh, we're trampled in the dust,
but the Lord in whom we trust;
He will give us crumb for crust,
over here, over here.

Grandad participated in one of the later Oklahoma land rushes, and so he also taught me his own version of the Little Sod Shanty on the Claim:
1.
I'm lookin' rather seedy now while holding down my claim;
my vittles ain't always of the best;
and the mice play shyly 'round me as I nestle down to rest;
in my little old sod shanty on the plain.

Chorus:
Oh, the hinges are of leather and the winders have no glass;
the boards they let the howlin' blizzard in.
You can see the hungry coyote as he sneaks up through the grass;
to my little old sod shanty on the claim.

2.
Oh I rather like the novelty of livin' in this way;
though my bill of fare ain't always of the best,
but I'm happy as a clam on this here land of Uncle Sam;
in my little old sod shanty on the plains,

Chorus:
Oh, the hinges are of leather and the winders have no glass;
the boards they let the howlin' blizzard in.
you can see the hungry coyote as he sneaks up through the grass;
to my little old sod shanty on the claim,
oh, my little clapboard shanty on the plains.
yes my little clapboard shanty on the plains.


Here's one more song Grandad taught me. He worked on the Frisco
(railroad) lines, and sang "Patrick (or Paddy) on the Railroad" :
1.
In eighteen hundred and forty one,
I put my cordroy britches on,
I put my cordroy britches on,
to work upon the railway.

Chorus:
Skiddy mee-oo, mee-eye, ree-eye,
Skiddy mee-oo, mee-eye, ree-eye,
Skiddy mee-oo, mee-eye, ree-eye,
and Paddy works on the railway.

2.
In eighteen hundred and forty two,
I left the old world for the new,
bad 'cess to the luck that brought me through,
to work upon the railway.

Chorus:
3.
Our boss's name was old Tom King,
he kept a store to rob the men,
a yankee clerk with ink and pen,
to cheat Pat on the railway.

Chorus:

4.
Tis Paddy do this and Paddy do that,
without a stocking or cravat,
nothin' but an old straw hat,
to work upon the railway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,wilco48
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 10:33 AM

Thanks again to everyone!!!! These are great songs and traditions. It will really take me months to digest all of them. The mudcat is a great resource.

Thanks!!!!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 12:21 PM

Another famous one is "Ireland, Boys, Hurrah", which you should find in the Digitrad; in some American Civil War battle or other (Bull Run? Gettysburg? People tell me, but I've never seen the sites, so I forget instantly) huge numbers of the soldiers on both sides were Irish, many just off the boat. They were camped on either side of the river the night before the battle and when one side started singing:

"Deep in Canadian woods we've met, from one bright island flown..."

the boys on the other side took up the verse, and as one verse finished on one side of the river they could hear the beginning of the next rolling back, so great were the numbers of men singing.

Another thing you might be interested in - there's a new album out by a band called, I think, Sons of Erin, which consists of historical songs in relation to Irish America: Clear the Way is the name, I think. ("Clear the Way" is the English for "Fagaim Bealach" - the battle-cry of the Irish troops wherever they fought; it would be better rendered as "Give me room".)

Here's a website where you can find the CD:

http://www.dararecords.com/imn/images/d_warfield_cleartheway_360.jpg


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 12:23 PM

Oops, that should have been:

http://www.dararecords.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/pages/page850.html

List of tracks:

CORCORN AND THE PRINCE OF WALES
NORA CREINA
PADDY'S LAMENTATION
BROTHER IN THE BATTLE
LONG LIVE THE 69TH
KELLY'S IRISH BRIGADE
THE MINSTREL BOY
MARCHING THROUGH GEORGIA
OLD IRISH TUNE
LANKY CRANK FROM MAINE
BEAUTIFUL DREAMER
THE MEN WHO WORE GREY
JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME
THE CONQUERED BANNER
BALLAD OF GENERAL SHIELDS
POOR PAT AND THE KNOW NOTHINGS
THE IRISH WIDE AWAKE
GOD SEND US PEACE
THE BOY IS COMING FROM WAR
BATTLE CRY OF FREEDOM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 01:46 PM

GUEST adavis,

"...I've heard British chilluns say "a tissue, a tissue," but that's likely to be very modern..." Why so? "a-tissue" is supposed to be sneezing, why do you assume that that is more modern than "ashes"? also Reference is made to "Here we go round the mulberry bush", although this is a children's song/dance/game, IIRC this refers to the planting of mulberry trees in the exercise yards of British prisons.

Walrus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Micca
Date: 19 Jul 02 - 07:27 PM

I would commend to you Iona and Peter Opies book " the Singing Game" which completly debunks the Plague connection of this song, and which is full of interesting and well documented Chidrens games with their histories


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,adavis@truman.edu
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 12:42 AM

Walrus -- "A tissue" is onomatopoetic, basically identical with "atchoo," but subject to some drift towards the thing you sneeze into, the tissue, right? Kleenex is fairly modern, is what I meant.

What's the source of your info on the mulberry-bush song? Fascinating, if it moved from what we can assume is a fairly rough bunch to the children's play-yard. Why were prisoners planting mulberry bushes? The fruit's only barely edible (tho' like dandelion wine, there's always someone to rave about it).

IIRC? I'm green -- I don't understand this.

Best,

Adam


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 04:53 AM

The English say "Atishoo" when they sneeze. Not a tissue; I don't think they had tissues in the 14th century ;)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jul 02 - 01:27 PM

"Atishoo; atichoo: A representation of the characteristic noises accompanying a sneeze. 1878 Punch: A cough tears your lungs, but a sneeze tears you through....Atschoo! Atischoo!" "1892, Zangwell, Childrens Ghetto...Ezequiel sneezed. It was a convulsive 'atichoo.'" Oxford English Dictionary. Atishoo! was used in the children's rhyme Rinr-Around-The-Rosey in England by Kate Greenway (see thread 49672: Rosey


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 08:57 PM

Salad bowls, melting pots, goober peas, carrots... I'm beginning to feel quite peckish. I realise that one or two of these are as sinful as Adam's apple, but presumably Wilco is on safe ground with the potatoe, so memorably invented by Dan Quayle?

For a song concerning more recent history, what about "Stange Fruit" about which there is at least one thread here somewhere.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 11:53 AM

What would American history be without the gold rush(es)?

Sweet Betsy from Pike (of course)
The Lousy (dirty) Miner (which is in the DT)
and any number of others.

Then, of the general westward movement:

I'm Goin' to the West

I'm Gonna Hit That Oregon Trail This Comin' Fall (more modern times, but the same phenomenon as the migration a hundred years earlier)

And of course, how could one pass up the Dust Bowl times, so copiously portrayed by Woody Guthrie?

Dustbowl Refugee
Talking Dustbowl Blues
So Long, It's Been Good to Know You (in its original, Dustbowl incarnation, before it was emasculated for commercial purposes)
...and maybe even..
Tom Joad (which the writer of The Grapes of Wrath said told the story of the novel more succinctly and better than he had in the novel.)

Dave Oesterreich


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:24 PM

Paddy on the railroad, definitely.

In 1814 we took a little trip, something something down the mighty Mississipp' (something about Old Hickory?)

Ring around the rosy is TOO a plague song. What are the data upon which you base your It's an Urban Legend thing, O Adam Guest?

Tom Joad isn't history, it's fiction.

but Pastures of Plenty, and also Deportees would be good.

How about Two Brothers on their way, one wore blue and one wore grey? That is how I used to remember who won the Civil War...

Keep us posted, this sounds like fun!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:39 PM

(Creep - OK, I stand corrected on Ring around a Rosie, having seen the Urban Legends debunking thereof. What about The House That Jack Built - is that still about the British political situation of the time?)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:04 AM

In 1814 we took a little trip
along with colonel Jackson down the Might Mississip
we took a little bacon and we took a little beans
we met the bloody British in the town of New Orleans

Chorus:
We fired our guns and the British kept a comin
wasn't ney as many as they was a-while a go
we fired once more and they began a-runnin
on down the Mississippi to the gulf of mexico


Something like
Old Hickry said we could take em by surprise
if we held our fire till we looked em in the eyes
so we held our fire till we really seen em well
when we touched our powder off we really gave them -- well

Chorus:

Can't remember the other verses.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Childrens' Songs
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:19 AM

Guest Dec. 6, '03:

That's the Battle of New Orleans, by Jimmy Driftwood. (click on title to get to the DT listing)

~ Becky in Tucson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Historical Children's Songs
From: keberoxu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM

This thread has two posts for the song about the "Praties." I recognize it from a recording by Susan Reed, the singing harp player, from my childhood (Elektra label, was it?).

"The Anthology of the Potato," Dublin 1961 (limited edition), includes this song, which it credits to an appearance in "The Midland Tribune"; it is printed on page 78.

Pardon the duplication, please. Like the versions that precede it in this thread, the song has three verses; the slight variations in words here and there might be useful, or at least interesting, to someone.

OH! THE PRATIES THEY ARE SMALL OVER HERE

[no known author; 19th century Ireland]

Oh! the Praties they are small over here -- over here
Oh! the Praties they are small over here,
Oh! the Praties they are small, and we dug them in the fall,
And we ate them skins and all, full of fear -- full of fear.

Oh! I wish that we were geese in the morn -- in the morn,
Oh! I wish that we were geese in the morn,
Oh! I wish that we were geese, for they live and die at peace,
Till the hour of their decease, eatin' corn -- eatin' corn.

Oh! we're down into the dust, over here -- over here
Oh! we're down into the dust, over here,
Oh! we're down into the dust, but the Lord in whom we trust,
Will soon give us crumb or crust over here -- over here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 23 June 10:10 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.