Song memorial for September 11

Subject: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:02 AM

I am suggesting that on September 11, should you feel like it, that at 9 a.m. and/or 9 p.m. your time, that you/we stop and light a candle and sing America the Beautiful, with the verse about heroes in it of course. It will go around the world. Just here, perhaps it could be done in Ireland, Scotland, UAI, Germany, Belgium, Iceland, Argentina....many more places. It could be like Watchfires (Nov 1) where it passes like a wave around the world. Hope you can join me. I am in Pacific Standard Time...I'll try to go to the ocean that evening.

mg

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:07 AM

i will be celebrating my birthday....at an eric bogle concert....

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:42 AM

Nice idea, mg. I'm sure there will be a lot of songs sung that day, "America the Beautiful" among them.

I received this e-mail over the weekend about singing "Amazing Grace" at a synchronized time (3:30pm Eastern Daylight Time, 2:30pm Central Daylight Time, etc.) on September 11, so I'll reprint it here:

========================
Americans Unite in Song Coast-to-Coast on 9-11 Anniversary with "Amazing Grace"
********************************************

Owner of L.A.'s Highland Grounds (Coffeehouse) Brews up Movement to Heal the Country

What do Elvis, Destiny's Child, The London Philharmonic Choir, Al Green, Rod Stewart, Aretha Franklin, Ani DiFranco, Cassandra Wilson, Johnny Cash, John Tesh, the Dan Air Scottish Pipes, the Appalachian Pickers, Paul Robeson, Charlotte Church and Ladysmith Black Mambazo have in common? They've all recorded "Amazing Grace", which is a testament to the power of one song to transcend genres and generations.

On September 11, 2002, The Amazing Grace Project will offer an opportunity to replace the pain of last year with the sound of hope and resilience as voices nationwide simultaneously sing "Amazing Grace", at 3:30pm EDT, 2:30pm CDT, 1:30pm MDT, and 12:30pm PDT.

"Songs have a unique power to transport and transform," says Leslie Brenner, co-owner of Highland Grounds Cafe in Los Angeles, who has been spearheading the grassroots effort. "The lyrics of "Amazing Grace" specifically speak about fears being relieved and having come through danger and feeling safe. What could be more appropriate, more unifying, than to have the same sound, the same words rise up across the country at the same time?"

Anyone can participate wherever they are, with friends, family or co-workers, at the designated times. Public gatherings in Los Angeles are planned at Beyond Baroque, 681 Venice Blvd., Venice, (contact Matthew Niblock, 310-815-5716,) and the Autry Museum across from the L.A. Zoo, 4700 Western Heritage Way, 323-667-2000, (contact Maureen Davis, day of event.) (Suggestion-bring a picnic lunch to either location.) Three verses of non-denominational lyrics are available on http://www.themusic.com/amazinggrace/ which generously donated time and tech support.

The Amazing Grace Project
Wednesday, September 11, 2002
3:30pm EDT
2:30pm CDT
1:30pm MDT
12:30pm PDT
http://www.themusic.com/amazinggrace/

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM

Can't we unite over something that isn't divisive? How about something that isn't Christian, doesn't exclude the Moslems, the atheists, or anybody else? I'd like to light a candle and sing, yes, but not something that excludes those who don't think like Christian Americans. How about We shall overcome?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 10:43 AM

I don't know about that, Mrrzy; "We Shall Overcome" has too much of an us-against-them message to suit those who object to the US military presence in Afghanistan and the threatened military action against Iraq. My own discomfort with the song has more to do with the evangelical Christians' use of it as an us-against-the-devil message. But then, I'm not comfortable singing "Amazing Grace" or "America the Beautiful (with that "God shed His grace on thee" lyric)" either.

I don't have anything better to suggest, though. The only song that comes to mind is "Home, Sweet Home (Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home)". Still, I suppose that song would work for the nationalists as well as those who believe that the souls of the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks flew to some spiritual "home".

Subject: Lyr Add: SCALES OF REVENGE (Lorcan Otway)
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:12 AM

This is what I intend to sing on that day... Cheers Larry


Scales of Revenge

Words Lorcan Otway, Tune Traditional, Willie O' Winsbury from the singing of the great Anne Briggs.

Oh America's fired a cruise missile, and it's killed my brother's son
Now I must put my hopes aside and learn the way of the gun
Oh why and how can they do such things, why bring such grief to me
Now I will go and seek revenge for my faith and my dignity

Oh some men from Saudi Arabia, have killed my old school friend
He was never a part of any war, why bring him this awful end?
Oh why and how can they do such things, why bring this grief to me,
Now I will go and seek revenge for my friend and for my country

Oh the helicopters came last night, and we fled into the dark
But American bullets flew from above, killing my wife, my love,
Oh why and how can they do these things, why bring this grief to me,
As generations of Afghans before, I'll defend this poor country

My son, my son, he will never return, in a foreign war he lies slain
He was fighting for his home and hearth, on some barren Afghani plain
Oh why and how can they do these things, why bring such grief to me
Send troops, send troops, to far Iraq, to stop this insanity

And here I sit and I watch the world, as blood is shed for blood
And I can only wonder why and how can we stem this flood
Oh why oh how can they do such things, on justice's bloody path,
And who will be left to say in the end, we've balanced the scales at last

Don't stop, don't stop for our martyred dead, or one inch of blood-soaked soil,
But stop oh stop for the love of your child, in fields of hope now toil
Oh how oh why can't we begin, by putting grief behind
We can not ever pay for the dead, by paying another in kind.

Subject: Lyr Add: I WILL NOT FEAR (John Flynn)
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 11:52 AM

Strong song, Larry. Can you give us a link to a MIDI of the tune?

There's a song by John Flynn (a southeastern Pennsylvania native, bless his heart! *G*) that might do for the purpose of a nationwide/worldwide synchronized singalong; it's entitled "I Will Not Fear". I'll print the lyrics below, and here's a link to a page with the whole enchilada ? lyrics, mp3 and RealAudio clip: http://www.johnflynn.net/lyrics/i_will_not_fear.htm


I WILL NOT FEAR
      by John Flynn

He takes off his old baseball cap and slowly bows his head
As thousands stands in silence for the missing and the dead
And when they've played the anthem and the crowd begins to cheer
He holds up a cardboard sign that says I WILL NOT FEAR

chorus:
I will not fear
I will not fear
Say it in a voice that's loud and clear
Sing it out for all the world to hear
I will not fear
I will not fear

She joined up because they'd help her pay for her degree
Her daughter calls her Mommy ? to the Corps she's PFC
Soon they're shipping out so as she gathers up her gear
She writes a quick note home and signs with love - I will not fear
(chorus)

She shows the girl her boarding pass and checks in at the gate
She thought of canceling the trip but some things just won't wait
She hasn't seen the grandchildren in well over a year
She takes an aisle seat,  says to herself - I will not fear
(chorus)

The son of Arab immigrants,  he's in the second grade
Walking from the bus stop as the school bus pulls away
Across the street some bigger boys yell 'We don't want you here'
He swallows hard and whispers to himself - I will not fear

And in this land of the free - in this home of the brave
The voice of human courage cries I will not be a slave
To the ones in shadow who'd see freedom disappear
Won't you send a message right now... say - I will not fear
(chorus)

© 2001 Flying Stone Music

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:25 PM

(quote) "Can't we unite over something that isn't divisive?

Only someone who can not put aside their own self of self-exclusiveness could consider "Amazing Grace" ,sung within the context of America's Euro-historic culture and the fact that it is inspired by a unquely American moment in infamy, could label this song about healing as "divisive".

I'd be just as content to have the Islamic world make a stand for healing and join in *share* a song of healing and peace from their culture and broadcast *that* all over the world. Apparently you'd probably consider this as "improper" as well because that song would also come from a culture that is inextricably religious.

One wonders aloud just where is Islam's equivalent of a Mahatma Gandhi?

(quote) "How about something that isn't Christian, doesn't exclude the Moslems, the atheists, or anybody else? "

Well while you're fumbling around for something that suits you , cultural tradition will out. And as soon as an atheist writes a song of healing that stirs and inspires one's *spirit* you'll have made omnii-cultural neutralism's case, but so long as the healing of a shared wounded *spirit* kind of requires something an aetheist is , how shall I put this elicately , ill-equipped to comprehend let alone address effectively , best leave things of the spirit to them that have agreed that it exists and therefore can engage in the pursuit of *communing* with it. Sorry to read that you feel your elected ideology prevents you from joining in. Who's loss this is can be debated, but not that it *is* a loss nonetheless.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From:
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:33 PM

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:35 PM

I quote the above: Only someone who can not put aside their own self of self-exclusiveness could consider "Amazing Grace" ,sung {sic} within the context of America's Euro-historic culture and the fact that it is inspired by a unquely American moment in infamy, could label this song about healing as "divisive". Excuse me? A hymn, not divisive according to a) WHICH religion you believe in, and b) WHETHER you believe in any religion? Only someone who assumes that the Christian reality IS the only reality would quibble with me over that! (Not that I really think that, but the parallel was unavoidable.)

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 12:36 PM

OK. Amazing Grace it is. No sense in redundancy. It s a song that many people find great comfort from. I don't personally like it for some reason..the tune maybe grates on me. I did try to pick one not too religious. But you can always hum. As for new songs..how in the world could anyone learn them in time? Much less in other countries. Many people in this country, and I don't think I am particularly one, were quite traumatized, if not dead from this, and a nationwide ceremony, preferably a worldwide one, could help them. mg

Subject: RE: Anti-Amazing Grace Society
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:10 PM

(quote) ". Excuse me? A hymn, not divisive according to a) WHICH religion you believe in, and b) WHETHER you believe in any religion?"

You have still failed to define precisely what's wrong with a hymn considering: A) the incontravertable American Euro-historic culture B) A hymn that is univerally understood as an expression of seeking and sending healing AND C) which is *always* played at the funueral of fallen policeman & fireman. Obviously the plain *relevence* escapes you.

Personally, as a New Yawker, I'd love to see you voice your protestations at any funeral of a murdered policeman and fallen fireman in front of their families and commrades. It'd be a revelation that you wouldn't forget soon.

(quote) "Only someone who assumes that the Christian reality IS the only reality would quibble with me over that! "

Well your apparent ignorance to the larger *cultural* traditions , in New York in particular and America in general , at work means that persons such yourself are free to *exclude* themselves because your self-elected ideology is more important than in sharing with this tradition. I'm sure the families and co-workers among the fallen N.Y.P.D. and N.Y.F.D. won't notice because this is a time of gathering and sharing in healing.

Remain silent then.

For me I'd prefer to join in solidarity and respect *New York's* choice of this hymn .

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pei T
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:33 PM

Taliesin,

1.) I grew up in central Jersey, no, I'm not a "new yawker" but I lost a LOT more neighbors than most "new yawkers". I sat going through my hometown newspaper, expecting to see classmates from my childhood. (Amazingly, though there were several that worked in both towers, they all made it out).

2.) My brother (an EMT and volunteer fireman) left his wife and toddler son in NC to drive to NYC on 9/11 to help.

3.) My father left my mother in Jersey on 9/12 to help coordinate shelter for those that needed it.

4.) I still cannot see a picture of the twin towers (yeah, I remember when it was just "the twin towers" or "the towers" NOT the "WTC") without tears coming to my eyes.

So don't even try to say anything about my patriotism in response to this or I will not be polite in my response.

Amazing Grace is appropriate for a fallen fireman or policemen, and no one would NEVER question that. There is history and tradition wrapped up in that fact.

But (my feeling) on this memorial is that it is for EVERYONE.. From the traditionalist Christians that see nothing wrong with expecting everyone to be christian, to the familes of the Islamic employees of (insert company name) that never made it home that day. EVERYONE. not just the fireman, not just the policemen, not just the christians.

And the fact is that it is a song of healing for those who have a healing connection with it.. either through a christian upbringing, or through a connection with pd/fd work.

for a lot of people, it's a christian hymn, that's it, which.. if you're not christian, means NOTHING.

Singing Amazing Grace doesn't bring me healing. And I think that is what Mrrzy was trying to say.

maybe a better plan is to say, "everyone, pick a song.. a song of healing, of love, of peace, of family, whatever you need to express your feelings." and let it go at that.. Finding a song that would be healing for all might just be a tad overly-optimistic.

(though I like Scales of Revenge myself.. But I am a raving pacifist.)

Petra Anne Tremblay Monmouth County, NJ

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 03:40 PM

Guest-Taliesen, when my father was killed by terrorists and the US gov't tried to drape his coffin in the flag and sing hymns over it, we wouldn't allow that either. When the gov't tried to have my Mom declared insane or incompetent so that they could do it anyway, we resisted, and we prevailed.

Don't tell me how to feel about people killed by terrorists, or not to object to using a hymn and pretending you're not, till YOU have had someone in YOUR family killed by these terrorists, ok?

Subject: Lyr Add: AMAZING GRACE (original lyrics)
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:03 PM

A short biography of the Reverend John Newton, 1725-1807, Methodist minister and writer of "Faith's Review and Expectation" (later to be known as "Amazing Grace"), published in 1779 in Olney Hymns: http://www.anointedlinks.com/amazing_grace.html

It is not clear from this telling whether the hymn was inspired by Newton's experiences as a captain of a slave-trading ship, as Taliesn infers, but when one looks at the entirety of the original lyrics (reprinted below), there can be no doubt that they refer specifically to the Christian faith and the hope of salvation and eternal life (particularly in the claim to possess a life of joy and peace when mortal life shall cease because God is forever his), and not simply to "healing" as Taliesn contends:


Amazing Grace
original title: Faith's Review and Expectation
set to the unaccompanied tune used by the Old Regular Baptists of Kentucky

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The world shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun refuse to shine;
But God, who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

Original lyrics can also be found here: http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr1.html

A list of stanzas added later, along with discussion about the old tune, the tune commonly used today ("New Britain"), and the song's various lyrics and parodies (including commentary from our own dearly departed LR Mole!), linked here: http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr2.html

Taliesn claims that this song is not divisive if "sung within the context of America's Euro-historic culture", yet it is precisely that culture in that period of history that gave birth to the slave trade in which Newton participated, a trade that proved so divisive to Euro-American culture that it became an issue in two wars ? the Revolutionary and the Civil ? and its aftermath has created divisiveness to this day. Within that historical context, John Newton himself was so tightly bound to his career as a slave-ship captain that he kept transporting slaves for some seven years after his conversion to Christianity during a storm at sea. He used the excuse that he as a Christian made sure his cargo was treated "humanely", but couldn't bring himself to do the truly humane thing: to refuse to transport humans in captivity away from their culture into a life of cruelty to themselves and their children for the benefit of rich Euro-Americans. Newton gave up the slave-ship business only when illness forced him to.

It was at least another five years before Newton became a minister and started influencing future abolitionists with his preaching in an effort to assuage his own guilt and persuade others to stop the slave trade now that his own coffers were full. Of course, he was preaching not only the culturally divisive message of abolitionism but the spiritually divisive message of salvation through faith in one specific belief system and damnation for anyone who didn't believe what he believed. That divisive message, too, continues to this day.

So I hope that Taliesn will understand that atheists and agnostics find the Christians of that historic culture to be the ones who considered themselves "self-exclusive", and that "Faith's Review and Expectation (Amazing Grace)" is evidence of that. I hope that Taliesn will understand that atheists and agnostics consider the Christians' message to continue to be self-exclusive. Taliesn's claim that atheists somehow do not share the wounded spirit of all those who are appalled by the terrorist acts of 9/11, and his insinuation that atheists do not have spirits to be wounded by tragedy or to be uplifted in song is not only self-exclusive and divisive but insulting.

Mrrzy asked for a song that people of all the cultures that make up America, and the world, could sing together without excluding those who don't think like Christian Americans. It is not helpful to respond that if one doesn't think like a Christian American one, therefore, doesn't want to join the singing (that makes no sense since Mrrzy the atheist asked for a song to sing!). Likewise, it is not helpful to suggest humming along with a song that has a distinct message in which one does not believe since someone listening might assume that the hummer believes and intends to convey the message but has forgotten the specific lyrics of the song.

If Christians want to gather together and sing the songs that strengthen their own faith, that can be helpful to them, but why not also gather together with people of different faiths and sing different songs that strengthen the larger community, the nation, the whole of humanity?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:12 PM

(quote) "Guest-Taliesen, when my father was killed by terrorists and the US gov't tried to drape his coffin in the flag and sing hymns over it, we wouldn't allow that either." My sincere condoloenses, but what does your obvious pre-exiting axe to grind with the US Gov't over an American flag *issue* have to do with the singing of a *recognized* hymn that is also a New York tradition for its fallen Police & Fireman extended to the slaughtered civilians in the WTC? I suppose it 's abhorant to you that their coffins have the American flag used in their ceremonies of fallen in the line of duty. Does your personal trajedy also mean you'd preer to *not* see the American flag used in the 9/11 ceremony either? Help me understand?

Either way , even if "Amazing Grace" distrubs you so, why do you feel imposed upon if "Amazing Grace" is the choice of those that shared loss in this case. It's as personal to them as yours is to you. It's supposed to be about choice last I heard. (quote) "Don't tell me how to feel about people killed by terrorists, or not to object to using a hymn...."

Whoa there partner, you're free to feel and "object" any way you want. , but to extend your personal agenda as if the *choice* of those involved with "Ground Zero" is somhow *illegitimate* because of *your* peronal ideologies over the choice of a traditonal hymn is what I *was* taking issue with.

BTW: Which branch of the millitary ,intelligence, or foreign service he was you father a part of ? Tthe U.S. Gov't traditionally only tries to force the flag issue with a fallen member of one of these srvices.

Be at peace

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:24 PM

Geez, Taliesn, do we really need to remind you that not all of the slaughtered civilians in the WTC – and the Pentagon, and the four jets that were hijacked and crashed – come from this "New York tradition" of which you speak? Some were Muslim, for goodness' sake! I have to wonder how the Muslim victims' families felt about having a Christian hymn sung over the remains of their loved ones.

As Petra said, this memorial-song commemoration is supposed to be for everyone, not just for those in New York. And not everyone is of the "New York tradition" or the Christian tradition. I agree with her that, if each of us sings a song that brings healing to him or her, the action is no less meaningful than if we all sing the same song... in fact, it would probably be more meaningful.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:37 PM

...Still, I wish there was a song that could bring healing to the divisiveness between religions and cultures within the larger community of America and the even larger community of the earth!

Subject: RE: Correction there,SharonA
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:38 PM

(quote) "Taliesn claims that this song is not divisive if "sung within the context of America's Euro-historic culture", yet it is precisely that culture in that period of history that gave birth to the slave trade ......"

Whoa there with your psuedo-history there sister. Time to get your *fatcs* straight. The "birth of the Slave Trade", *Euro-style*, began centuries before there ever were American colonies let alone a United States with a bonified Consitutional Gov't to be be *saddled* with at birth.

Lest we forget the pre-existant Euro war for supremacy of the seas in order to secure *Trade Routes* that the British Empire ultimately had the pride of winning .

And let us please not forget that there even wouldn't have *been* any slaves to trade without the willing participation of African tribal cheiftans who made war on other tribes and "harvested" the vanquished for sale to the *Arab Slave Traders* who'd been at it for centuries more.

This is all to say, let he or she of a culture without the *original sin* of slavery and trafficking in human misery cast the first stone.

I guess you could quote the Dalai Lama and right ou would be, but then that raises the issue of the treatemnt of the Tibetans by the *officially* ahteist Big Gov't of Beijing.

Your call.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 04:56 PM

Taliesn, the history you cite is precisely the Euro-historic culture to which I refer. Culture wasn't built in a day! *G* And the slave trade I refer to is specifically the trade across the Atlantic Ocean to the Americas – Central/South America as well as North America, since there were rich Europeans with plantations further south than the British colonies as well. You see, you quoted me a little bit out of context. I said: "...it is precisely that culture in that period of history that gave birth to the slave trade in which Newton participated" – the slave trade as it existed in the mid-1700s. It was divisive even then; it nearly resulted in the failure of the British colonies to unite at all, and the continuation of that slave trade continued to drive the northern and southern states apart culturally even after they were united on paper.

Subject: RE: Dear Petra
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 05:23 PM

(quote) "So don't even try to say anything about my patriotism in response to this or I will not be polite in my response. "

Whoa,whoa....you're way over the mark here Petra. Allow me try to gentley reel you in a tad here. 1st of all, before you start railing away kindly "quote" me where I have actually said *anything* about your patriotism. Your *impressions* of what I wrote are your business, but what I actually said are in black & white for all to read .

That is why I always include "quotes" from the person I am addressing on an issue. Now I'm not at all shy about "honest "debate of issues , and i will speak as "plainly" and as directly as you want , but kindly show me where you beleive where what I've said has done you wrong if you please and we can work it out from there. That's number 1 if we're going to have a "polite" debate, fair enough?

(quote) "for a lot of people, it's a christian hymn, that's it, which.. if you're not christian, means NOTHING."

Well that's sad indeed. I thought i was perfectly clear when I wrote ( and apparently you chose to ignore ) (quote) "I'd be just as content to have the Islamic world make a stand for healing and join in *share* a song of healing and peace from their culture and broadcast *that* all over the world."

Forgive me if bringing up what i actually wrote is ,somehow ,"inconvininet" to your rant ,but there it is and I *stand* buy it.

I would also wish that the Dalai Lama say Budhist *prayers* of healing , but I imagine he would be *objectionable* to the agnostics and atheists as well.

(quote) "Singing Amazing Grace doesn't bring me healing. And I think that is what Mrrzy was trying to say."

Well that is truly a pity . If I had a comrad killed in a foreign land I'd be just *honored* and feel as much *healing* if there were a ceremony given in that culture's tradition, be it Asian , Hindu , Budhist,Hebrewn , Muslim , American Indian because, I guess, I am able to take it in the *spirit* in which it would be offered and draw from that solidarity in spirit.

In addition I would be loath to *insult* those that offered there culture to me by just flatly rejecting itout of hand because it's not *my* culture.

That would be culturally chauvanistic would it not?

That is why I find it a pity that you and others here are incapable of taking this offering in the spirit in which that it is given .

I dunno. I guess I was raised with different values, but *all* of the world's cultures treat the moment of a tragic passing as a uniquely *spiritual* event so I guess you ahteists are gonna have to think of something else for yourselves I s'pose.

Your call.

Subject: RE: Correction again,Sharon
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:07 PM

(quote) "Taliesn, the history you cite is precisely the Euro-historic culture to which I refer. .... And the slave trade I refer to is specifically the trade across the Atlantic Ocean to the Americas – Central/South America as well as North America, since there were rich Europeans with plantations further south than the British colonies as well."

I'm well aware of the pan-America's roots. I was only drawing the line of cause & effect succession that resulted in what became the U.S. since this thread is specifically about Euro-American cultural roots leading to the evolution of what "Amazing Grace" has *become* as the acknowlegded hymn for healing in the ceremonies of loss ; especially due as a result of a senseless act of war.

(quote) "You see, you quoted me a little bit out of context. I said: "...it is precisely that culture in that period of history that gave birth to the slave trade in which Newton participated" – the slave trade as it existed in the mid-1700s."

This is really straining for justifiction here. Because the author paricipated in the economy of the Euro-expansinost culture of the time you are suggesting that the hymn itslef can not *transend* its origins. I dunno but I came to learn that things of spiritual nature are , by their nature ,*transendant*.

By your argument do you mean to suggest that it was also still *impolitic* for the Isreali Symphony Orchestra to finally *choose* to perform Wagner even though *they* decided that the music as a masterwork of art transended the culture that produced it?

I mean the collective memory of 19th & early 20th century German culture being far fresher than that of anything of 17th century origin would have to *any* American.

Thanks for history lesson on the origins of "Amazing Grace" , but I'm afraid that it falls flat as a serious reason to dismiss this cultural tradition in 21st American culture because , whether you acknowledge it or not , this *living tradition* hymn *has* transended beyond its time of origin and is rendered irrelevent to its *meaning* now. Culture is a *transmutatiive* system if anything.

Only living things can evolve.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pei T
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:14 PM

You know what Taliesin.

I had a big long response FULL of your quotes.. and I decided not to post it.

Because it is not worth it.

9/11 is a day that we will all remember in our own way. You can't understand why we feel that Amazing Grace is inappropriate, your arguments have shown that, so remember it however you want, in the end, we all will anyway. Sing Amazing Grace from the rooftops, I don't live in the city, so I won't have to listen to it.

Petra

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:16 PM

sing whatever. Home on the Range. There are very few songs that many people know any more. Jingle Bells. If you don't want to participate in a last-minute thing, then don't. If you want to ring a bell or blow a whistle, then do.

mg

Subject: RE: My dear Petra
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 06:30 PM

(quote) "Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11 From: Pei T Date: 03-Sep-02 - 06:14 PM

You know what Taliesin.

"I had a big long response FULL of your quotes.. and I decided not to post it. Because it is not worth it. "

Oh I see ; easier to just rant then and just generalize for convinience sake. As you wish.

(quote) " You can't understand why we feel that Amazing Grace is inappropriate,"

Whoa ,whoa. Whom is this collective *we* all of a sudden? And you're dead wrong. I *do* thoroughly understand why "some" find it objectionable , but I can also thoroughly *disagree* with their justifications and rationlizations. Your points of argument have meerly done zero to advance your case.

(quote) "Sing Amazing Grace from the rooftops, I don't live in the city, so I won't have to listen to it."

Hey , knock yourself out. That is your freedom.

I certainly won't lose any sleep over it...... especially since I live in Northern Virginia , just west of Dulles along the Wash.D.C./Dulles corridor.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM

Except for the later and often forgotten verse concerning the Lord, Amazing Grace is pretty non-denominational and ecumenical.

But if that won't do why don't y'all just sing "It's a Small World After All" over and over?

If you don't like that, how about "Dat's Right! De Woman is Smahtuh!"??

A

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 03 Sep 02 - 08:54 PM

i dont know...gimme that old time religion should satisfy all denominations....

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:50 AM

I do not like at all the way this thread has gone. I usually enjoy some of the discussions about religion, hymns etc we had in other threads like e.g. 'Atheist hymns'. They have a good place there. But this thread should be focussed on the theme of the original post from Mary for the good idea should not get lost among futile discussions.

Petra had said it first but I cite Sharon's summary:
I agree with her (Petra) that, if each of us sings a song that brings healing to him or her, the action is no less meaningful than if we all sing the same song... in fact, it would probably be more meaningful.

So be it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:39 AM

I wonder if it will be joined in with in Chile, where they have their own September 11th anniversary....

A different September 11 anniversary By Alistair Bell

SANTIAGO (Reuters) - On the morning of September 11, airborne assailants devastated a landmark building in an attack that reverberated around the world.

There was an act of dramatic suicide.

Some 3,000 people were to die in the aftermath of the assault, ordered by a figure whose name is now synonymous for many with violence and extremism.

Not 2001, but 1973.

By a macabre coincidence, the strikes on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon share the same anniversary as one of the most controversial acts of political violence in recent Latin American history.

Twenty-nine years ago on September 11, General Augusto Pinochet staged a heavy-handed coup to overthrow Chile's elected President Salvador Allende.

The president, a leftist who leaned toward Marxism, chose to take his own life in the burning La Moneda palace rather than see his dream of an egalitarian state destroyed.

The putsch is still an open wound in Chile, a country of 15 million people that is now one of the most stable in South America.

"It was a tragic moment in Chile's history. September 11, 1973 marked the end of the democratic system we had in Chile and the beginning of a very dark period. It divided and scarred us," current President Ricardo Lagos told Reuters.

Although of much lesser global impact than the attacks in the United States, Chile's September 11 raised Cold War tensions.

Moscow accused the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency of arranging the coup. Allende became a martyr for the international left and Pinochet began his 17-year career as the archetypal Latin American dictator.

NO CONNECTION

The date aside, the two September 11 incidents are unrelated.

"Chronology on the calendar is one thing, historical events are another. There is no way to associate the U.S. September 11 with Chile's September 11," said Cristian Labbe, a right-wing mayor and one of Pinochet's closest friends.

In a clinically planned operation, military chief Pinochet sent Hawker Hunter jets to bomb the presidential palace in the heart of Santiago to force his rival to hand over power.

The bespectacled Allende, an ally of Cuban President Fidel Castro, was holed up on the second floor of the palace with a group of some 30 bodyguards and supporters.

After several hours under bombardment, Allende ordered everyone to leave the ruined building and surrender, vowing that he would come out last.

But the president ducked out of view, sat down on a sofa in the palace's Red Salon and shot himself.

"We were going down the stairs, being beaten in the back by soldiers with rifle butts and then a shot rang out nearby. Someone shouted, 'The president is dead,'" said Arturo Giron, Allende's doctor, who was in the palace.

For many years leftists accused the army of killing Allende but it is now widely accepted that he took his own life.

"He committed suicide," said Giron.

The military killed 3,000 suspected opponents of Pinochet, most of them murdered in the weeks following the coup.

Hatred was such that an army death squad abducted victims and carved them up with ceremonial swords.

The killings and "disappearances" went on for years. The bodies of 1,000 people who went missing have yet to be found, fuelling human rights protests even today.

SEPT.11 AVE

Many Chileans remember those times with horror, but a sizeable number are equally proud of September 11. So much so that in the 1970s they named a street after it in wealthy eastern Santiago.

Chilean conservatives, who make up around 40 percent of voters, say Pinochet brought prosperity compared to food rationing, strikes and property seizures under his predecessor.

"I supported Pinochet and still agree with what he did," said Marcia Manzano, dining in a fast food outlet on Avenida 11 de Septiembre (September 11 Avenue).

"There was more stability in his time, less crime and less unemployment," said the 42-year-old secretary, her shoulder draped with an elegant woollen shawl.

September 11 Avenue is a mile-long (1.6 km) stretch of banks, shops and glass-fronted skyscrapers -- a testament to Chile's economic boom of the last 15 years.

Despite the grim connotations of its name, U.S. companies like Citibank, McDonald's and FleetBoston bank have branches on the avenue.

Most of the shoppers are middle and upper class, those who benefited from economic reforms in the Pinochet era.

Pinochet, now 86 and ailing, hired a team of U.S.-trained advisers who liberalised the economy, laying the ground for an average annual seven percent growth in the 1990s.

Local mayor Labbe said people occasionally complained about the name of September 11 Avenue, but only because of its link to the Chilean coup, not the 2001 attacks believed to have been masterminded by the Saudi-born dissident Osama bin Laden.

CIA AND THE COUP

The Chilean coup, at the height of Cold War, was followed closely by the United States which was openly hostile to Allende, seen as too close to Moscow.

U.S. documents declassified in 1999 showed the CIA funded opposition activities against Allende.

Latin American leftists suspect direct CIA involvement in the 1973 coup but the exact role of the agency in Chile at the time has never been clarified.

Critics say that Washington, at best, gave moral backing to Pinochet and tacit support to his human rights abuses.

"The same United States that now promotes the war against international terrorism, as we well know, was the United States that supported the rather blatantly terrorist crew that perpetrated September 11 in Chile," said Marc Cooper, a leading U.S. leftist journalist.

Cooper, who was once Allende's translator, fled Chile days after September 11 and is now based in California.

"Having lived through September 11 in Chile I think it made me more generous and compassionate toward the pain that Americans felt about this September 11," he said.

While the United States is expected to grind to a halt for the first anniversary commemorations, Chile will be prepared for leftist protests which often break out around September 11th.

In previous years, human rights activists have thrown full-sized dummies of people into the Rio Mapocho river in central Santiago to commemorate leftists who were killed on September 11 and thrown in the water.

Subject: RE:GUEST, write a song
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:45 AM

(quote) "I wonder if it will be joined in with in Chile, where they have their own September 11th anniversary.... "

Interesting enough. Worth commemorating with a song of its own, no?

I'm till waiting for a decent folksong commemorating those slaughtered in Tiananmen Square by the Beijing regime. Wouldn't happen to know any, would'ja now? However I just can't , for the life of me , fathom why you beleive this has *anything* to do with the choice of singing "Amazing Grace" in commemorating the 1st anniversary of 9/11 mass murder.

Whatever the involvement of the likes if then Sect.of State, Henry Kissinger, in the Alliende affair is *well* documented and hardly unknown to anyone reasonably well-versed in current events and non-fiction journalism coverage of those times.

Wonder what the Chilean equivalent spiritual hymns that are sung.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 09:14 AM

Taliesn says, in response to my earlier post, "By your argument do you mean to suggest that it was also still *impolitic* for the Isreali (sic) Symphony Orchestra to finally *choose* to perform Wagner even though *they* decided that the music as a masterwork of art transended the culture that produced it?"

The operative phrase here is that they decided what the music meant to them (a "masterwork of art"). Now, throughout your posts to this thread, Taliesn, you have made it clear that you have decided what "Amazing Grace" means to you, and you have cited the example of memorial services to show what other people have decided the hymn means to them. But what I and some other people posting to this thread have been saying is that what we *choose* to sing should not be based solely on what *you/they/the culture* have decided that it should mean to us (a "living tradition"). We are trying to tell you that we don't interpret it as being "ecumenical" or "culturally transcendant of its origins." We interpret it as a celebration of a specific belief system which is not shared by everyone, "whether you acknowledge it or not".

I cited the hymn's origins because I don't see it as having strayed from its origins in Christian doctrine in the least. It may be non-denominational, as Amos says, but it's not ecumenical in the sense of being "worldwide or general in extent, influence or application" (Webster's Dictionary). Rather, it is ecumenical in the sense of Webster's second definition of the word: "of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches; promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation" (my italics).

Taliesn, you've argued that the song's been applied generally as "the acknowlegded (sic) hymn for healing in the ceremonies of loss" but it's still a hymn! A hymn, by Webster's definition, is "a song of praise to God; a metrical composition adapted for singing in a religious service; a song of praise or joy; something resembling a hymn; paean (a joyously exultant song or hymn of praise, tribute, thanksgiving or triumph)". In "Amazing Grace", the praise is to the Christian God and his "grace"; the tribute is not to the memory of a deceased loved one but to the God who is supposed to grant that loved one eternal life ("grace will lead me home"); the thanks is given not for having had the loved one on earth to share his/her joys and sorrows but to the God who "saved" the "wretch"; the triumph is not the nation's in its determination to rise above terrorism but the Christian God's in his determination to teach the heart to fear and simultaneously relieve the fear. I've pondered these lyrics for years, and I just can't see how they can be interpreted in such a way that they could "heal" anyone who doesn't believe that specific credo. I mean, the lyrics clearly state: "How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed." Therefore, no belief equals no grace equals no healing.

So I have a very strong objection to anyone's using this hymn as some kind of nationalistic anthem of healing and trying to downplay the very clear message of the hymn by calling it a cultural tradition. I'll be one of those who sings another song. If others *choose* to exclude me from their healing process because they *decided* that I don't have a spirit to be healed since I don't believe what they do, that's their lack of grace, not mine.

Subject: RE: Oh PUH-lease Sharon
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:02 AM

Ya know ,before I even start your arguments read like the type of person who knows the exact *price*, down the farthing , of something while posseesing nothing of its *worth*. Or of a lawyer who can argue the finer points of the letter of the law and completely ignore its spirit.

For example: (quote) "Therefore, no belief equals no grace equals no healing."

Give us all a break ,will ya please.

That said here's your latest list of f blatant falacies:

(quote) "But what I and some other people posting to this thread have been saying is that what we *choose* to sing should not be based solely on what *you/they/the culture* have decided that it should mean to us (a "living tradition")."

Try and understand this. *No one* is *forcing you to do *anything*. You are free to do , or not do ,whatever the hell you want. You're free to object till your finger turn blue , but you can't diminish its importance and relevence. Get over it already.

The song does not have any particular meaning meaning on me. I *am* more familiar with the melody without the words and it's as healing and acts as a carrier wave for whatever words are sung and why you can't acknowledge it as an appropriate work of Americana art is your " ideologically correct* problem

(quote) "I cited the hymn's origins because I don't see it as having strayed from its origins in Christian doctrine in the least."

Well perhaps the problem is what you believe is so abyssmally wrong with Chritstian culture that you would mount such a vehement counter-case against this work as representing Americana. Not a xase of *selective* cultural bigotry on your part I hope.

(quote) "So I have a very strong objection to anyone's using this hymn "

Fine. Objection noted . What's changed?

(quote) "If others *choose* to exclude me from their healing process because they *decided* that I don't have a spirit ..... yada ,yada ,yada."

No one is excluding you. Your pre-condition of anti-Christian culture chauvanism causes you to make a point of excluding yourself. Knock yourself out ,darlin'. Whatever you do or chose not to do is your freedom. I doubt anyone will notice.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 10:08 AM

Strongly put Sharon, and well said.

You get to do It's a Small World.

A

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:25 AM

Okay, Amos! Actually, I performed it once at a rally with a vocal group from Africa backing me up; that was pretty cool!

Taliesn: You already did notice. You made a point of noticing, throughout this thread, starting with your initial response to Mrrzy's request for a song that we could "unite over". Your repeated insistence that a Christian hymn is "appropriate" simply because you consider it a "work of Americana art" doesn't make it appropriate or even "relevant" to this particular situation. It may "represent Americana" in your mind, but it doesn't represent all of America or all Americans.

Dismissing me by telling me to "get over it" doesn't dismiss the problem of America's cultural bigotry against non-Christians. Telling me I don't see something's worth doesn't mean I don't see that it has worth to other people. Insisting that America's Christian tradition doesn't exclude me and other non-believers doesn't wash when you said yourself: "So long as the healing of a shared wounded *spirit* kind of requires something an aetheist is, how shall I put this [d]elicately , ill-equipped to comprehend let alone address effectively, best leave things of the spirit to them that have agreed that it exists and therefore can engage in the pursuit of *communing* with it." So you don't consider atheists to "share" America's "wounded spirit"... or, more accurately, you're not interested in sharing the healing of spirit with those who don't believe that there's a spirit with which to commune outside our own spirits. Sorry, Tally, but that's an exclusionary attitude on your part.

Yes, of course, no one's forcing me to take part in a sing-along on the song of which you approve and others don't... but you don't seem interested in singing along with others on a song that everyone could feel comfortable singing. What's your objection to, as Mrrzy said, singing a non-religious song we all could "unite over"?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:30 AM

Taliesn - you made my point for me. You call it "a *recognized* hymn " - so it is by definition divisive and exclusive of people of non-Christian religions and no religion. 'Nuff said.

But I go on... Not to mention that those of us who aren't Christian don't know the words in the first place. I thought we were talking about what the Mudcat would sing around the world, not what the New Yorkers would sing in New York, about which I have nothing to say.

You also refer to America's Euro-historic culture ... so, we are all whites, again? I thought that America was the one place that had people of Asian, African, and European background, all to be treated equally? So, we are to sing a white Christian song, and call it inclusive? (SharonA, you said it!)

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM

Mrrzy sez: "I thought that America was the one place that had people of Asian, African, and European background, all to be treated equally?" Not only that, Mrrz, but the World Trade Center itself had people of Asian, African, and European background as well as people born and bred in the US! This is yet another reason why I keep saying that a song that "represent[s] Americana" and American "cultural tradition" is not appropriate for a memorial for citizens of various countries around the world who were victims of the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01. It wasn't just an attack on America and America's government (in DC) for its sympathies with Israel, it was an attack on the world and the world's economy... indeed, a small world after all.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:04 PM

you know, sometimes there is a larger issue that should overcome the smaller ones. mg

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM

Agreed, mg. I'm not sure which larger issue you have in mind, but I know from your first post that your suggestion was for a song memorial that "will go around the world", that people would sing in different countries at a certain hour in their time zone. I assumed that your idea had to do with world unity, at least in remembrance of those who lost their lives that day a year ago. But, as I said before, I have no doubt that many songs will be sung around the world on 9/11/02, at all times of the day. Those lost lives will be in our thoughts; they are not lost to thought on any day, nor will they be for the remainder of our lives.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:39 PM

I still vote for the first verse only of We Shall Overcome. I'll be at work (we are planting a tree) so I don't know what would happen if I just started singing... but I'm getting to work early that day, so as to be here, with all the people who were here, then. Our firm lost 2 employees on one of the planes that hit the WTC.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:46 PM

like i said...i will be celebrating my birthday....mom explained it right to me....yes so many people died that day...yes it was so upsetting...but also so many people were born....and conceived....

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 01:58 PM

Is there anything we on the Mudcat couldn't find reasons to fight over?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:53 PM

Maybe Max should rename it the "Mudcat Heated Discussion Forum".

But hey, at least this is a music thread! *BG*

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 03:57 PM

Well, we could do "Everybody Loves Saturday Night".   

What we really need is a hymn to Mankind, based not on divisive icons but on the living stuff that keeps us ticking over in common. I have a faint memory of Heinlein writing something like it somewhere (not "The Green Hills of Earth", but that's not such a bad idea either).

A

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM

Some of Sydney Carter's would do fine. "When I needed a neighbour" for example. But that wouldn't be good drum banging music.

If I'm singing anywhere that day I'll make a point of singing InOBU's Engine 33.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:14 PM

Bless you McGrath! I will be singing it as well, details to follow. I'll be thinking of you singing it over there while I am singing it over here. Cheers. Larry

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:34 PM

Ya know I love this place but only here at Mudcat can a request that was clearly well intended turn into such a friggin mess....... And we wonder why people stay away for long periods of time or leave altogether.

Let's face it, there IS no song that would make everybody happy. Unfortunately, we can't even be happy enough to join in the things we value and leave the rest alone, nope, gotta have a big ol argument...

How about this...? "Hey, that's nice that many of you have found a way to get together and remember in your own way. It's not my thing so I won't be joining you, but have at it, I wish you the best...." Nope, not here, never happen......

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 04:41 PM

Maybe we're just tired of being excluded, especially since 9/11? I'm not saying NY shouldn't sing hymns, I'm just saying if we want the whole Mudcat around the world to unite over something, it ought not to be something that excludes some of us.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM

What Mrrzy said.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN I NEEDED A NEIGHBOR (Sidney Carter)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM

Hassles with the publisher mean Sydney Carter songs have had to be kept out of the DT. (Nothing to do with Sydney - he doesn't pay attention to that kind of stuff these days.) So here are the words of that song of his I mentioned.

When I needed a neighbour, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a neighbour were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

I was hungry and thirsty, were you there, were you there?
I was hungry and thirsty were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

I was cold I was naked, were you there, were you there?
I was cold I was naked, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

When I needed a shelter, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a shelter, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

When I needed a healer, were you there, were you there?
When I needed a healer, were you there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
Were you there?

Wherever you travel, I'll be there, I'll be there,
Wherever you travel, I'll be there.
And the creed and the colour and the name won't matter
I'll be there.

You can't get less sectarian than that either, I reckon. Writing them out there I was suddenly reminded of what Tom Joad said in Woody Guthrie's version of the Grapes of Wrath, and I wondered if Sydney Carter might have had it at the back of his mind when he wrote that:

Wherever little children are hungry and cry
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a gonna be.

Subject: RE: One more time, Sharon
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM

(quote) ". but you don't seem interested in singing along with others on a song that everyone could feel comfortable singing. What's your objection to, as Mrrzy said, singing a non-religious song we all could "unite over"?

Absolutely *nothing*. One more time for clarity

*Absolutrely nothing*

I noticed you've never seen fit to acknowledge my repeated welcoming Islamic culture contributing to the offering peace and healing. Not to mention the Dalai Lama.

You've also steered conviniently clear of *protesting* these participants because they would be every bit of a *spiritual* nature. I thought confirmed atheists find *all* religious practice abhorant to their *special requirements*. So here's another chance *now* to to state the atheist's case clear and unambiguous.

Meanwhile your blind *idoelogical correctness* pretends as if "Amazing Grace " represents the *only* song that will allowed *to be* sung.

Totally false and to protest otherwise is an insult to anyone's intelligence.This imagined pretense for justifying knee-jerk outrage is based upon a thoroughly false impression; perhaps because it's *inconvinient* to making your protest legitimate.

The problem has apparently *always* been with you and Mrzy objecting to "Amazing Grace" being sung *at all* because of a self-isolating "ideological correctness" that only wants what offends *them* completely eliminated from any ,eventually *all* public ceremony. This is a counter-cultural tyranny that is no less *intolerant* and culturally chauvanistic than you , and whom you deem to represent , always seek to accuse the larger culture community of.

Paraphrasing the old saying " the loudest accusers are often the largest perpetrators".

There, that should stir it up proper.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 06:32 PM

I couldn't understand it meself, Taliesn, but it is late at night here...

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM

I have sung a couple of times this year, including last night, Tom Paxton's "The Bravest" which is in the DT and you can hear him sing it on MP3, though it was just too late for his last CD. I shall sing it again this weekend and on 11th Sept.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Burke
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:21 PM

This thread began with suggestions of ways to honor Sept. 11. If you want a sense of joining with others it seems to me that the most fitting way is to join the people of New York in their official events.

From a longer press release: The Governor said whether at formal events, in schools, at home or work, New Yorkers should observe a moment of silence at 8:46 a.m., the moment of the impact of the first plane into the World Trade Center, pause again at 9:03 a.m. at the time of the second impact, 9:59 a.m. at the time the first tower collapsed and finally at 10:29 a.m. at the time of the second tower collapse.

The Governor has requested the tolling of municipal and church bells across the State at precisely 10:29 a.m. as part of the effort to reflect on and remember the tragic events, as well as the heroism, of that day.

See also the Schedule for the Day in New York.

There will be many candlelight vigils in the evening.

Last year our campus held a candlelight vigil. Most singing was unprogrammed with God Bless America probably sung most with America the Beautiful probably second.

Subject: RE: Much oblidged Burke
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 07:44 PM

(quote) " If you want a sense of joining with others it seems to me that the most fitting way is to join the people of New York in their official events. "

Thank you so much for going to the source and bringing it to us all hopefully proving that them that " Me thinkst protest too much", their points now rendered irrevokably moot , were *never* threatened *one wit.*

I tired to explain allthat , but sometimes being a slave to one's *idoelogical correctness* blinds one to the reality of fears unfounded.

Let us all join now in whatever way suits one, but join,by *all* means join , finally if only out of love.

Peace be unto all

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Sep 02 - 11:00 PM

I expect to go to work late on September 11. Despite my best efforts, I know I will be in tears. My song?

"Further along we'll no longer wonder.
Furhter along we will understand why.
Cheer up my brother; Live in the sunshine.
We'll understand it all by and by."

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 01:24 AM

What song would it be that would include EVERYBODY? I don't think there is one. And if you read the first post, the poster didn't ask all of Mudcat to join in. He/she asked that "should you feel like it" you can join in. Who's excluding you? It seems to me that by suggesting that anyone who "feels like it" please join in, they ARE including everyone who wants to. If you choose to "remember" differently, you are free to organize your own, or not do anything special at all. But why, because you wouldn't want to participate, should someone not be allowed to ask people here to get involved? No one asked Mudcat to sponsor the event, no one insisted that ALL mudcatters get involved, it was simply an invitation to get involved if you felt like it. This jumping down people's throats for suggesting an idea that you don't like or agree with just sucks....

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,how about....
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:51 AM

...the old "Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me." Oops. Reviewing the lyrics in my head I come to the "With God as our father, brothers all are we." Maybe something else could substitute there.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:10 AM

What the World Needs Now...

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM

I don't think either SharonA or I objected to the New Yorkers singing whatever their hearts will, yea verily even unto Amazing Grace. What I said was, if the Mudcat is going to do a song-around-the-world, the idea to which I was answering, I would rather it weren't something Christian, but something that includes the Islamic and other faiths as well as the nonbelievers, which I don't believe Amazing Grace does. Taliesn wrote "I thought confirmed atheists find *all* religious practice abhorant to their *special requirements*. " - we have no special requirements that I know of, all I know is that hymns do not speak to my heart in times of trouble, I'd rather sing songs of reality, of hope and the overcoming of fear and danger in *this* world. I do find that in the good old USA, there is a tacit assumption of Christianity, in the same way there used to be a tacit assumption of white skin. Well, there are a lot of folks here who aren't Christian, and if we were the secular nation we were founded to be, the fundamentalist Islamic fanatics would have a lot less to hate us about. What I object to, and more so since 9/11 with all the god stuff our president is always spouting, is the idea that atheists can't be patriots, citizens, or even humans sometimes, that only hymns can soothe the soul, that turning to a particular god or gods is the way to overcome the hatred of those who follow some *other* god or gods.

I think what I said before, which was simply "Maybe we're just tired of being excluded, especially since 9/11? I'm not saying NY shouldn't sing hymns, I'm just saying if we want the whole Mudcat around the world to unite over something, it ought not to be something that excludes some of us." said it all...

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM

"What the World needs now" has the line "Lord, we don't need another mountain".....probably won't go over too well....

Look, I'm not saying that everyone should jump on board with this idea, I'm just saying that if you don't like the idea, don't join in. And don't judge what others are going to do to find comfort on September 11th. By turning this thread into an argument, the idea has essentially been squashed, and that's sad....

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:26 AM

Mrrzy, we were posting at the same time so I hadn't read your last post when I entered mine. Here's my offering....

Let's go with the original idea but with a twist...for those of us who intend to remember, let's agree to do so together, at the same time, but with the song or poem or prayer or just silence that each of us chooses. Seems to me that what we end up with is a rememberance as diverse as the Mudcat itself.....

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

Dona Nobis Pacem?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:14 AM

dona nobis pacem is definitely out. Those are Catholic words used in the Mass. The dona is a command to God, not even a please give us. God keeps rearing his head everywhere in this.

Well, once again something has been destroyed. Very very easy to do. Let's all pick a time and everyone sing whatever and then let's start a chorus and everyone sing a different song because we can't agree. The result will be just lovely.

mg

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:03 PM

I agree mg, for what it's worth, I'm going with plan A, your original idea. If you still plan on singing, we may be a chorus of two but we'll be out there!

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:05 PM

GUEST,mg,

I'm all for your first idea in your post that started this thread. But because 'America the Beautiful' has God references, it too is probably inappropriate, despite its very fitting verse in tribute to heroes. Here's an idea: How about 'My Contry, 'tis of Thee', the melody to which is "borrowed" from the national anthem of another GREAT nation? It's not divisive, and there is no religious slant to it, Christian or otherwise.

'My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I [we] sing
Land of the pilgrim's pride,
Land where our fathers died,
From ev'ry mountain side,
Let freedom ring!'

Perhaps "our fathers" could be replaced with "the heroes". Just a thought.

(For those who don't know, I refer to 'God Save the Queen(King)' as sung in the UK.)

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:30 PM

Jeeze, you guys sure do wrap around the axles nicely, doncha?


I'll tell you honestly that I would just as soon NOT spend a lot of time remembering 9/11, except for the brave people who moved in to try and help. They're something to remember. I will never forget the cowardice and insanity that started it, nor the pain it caused all over the world, but to invest in commemoration and put my attention back onto the big splash in world attention caused by Osama's Boxcutter Brigade -- I dunno, I think not. It is not as though they were striking a blow for human rights and freedom.

But such remembrance as I will undertake, I'll do in my own space and time, to my own tune. Don't see much point in reinforcing a massive trauma.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 12:32 PM

People from 83 countries died on September 11. Not just Americans, or people to whom the idea of America the Beautiful would necessarily be too relevant.

I think the better idea is people in all those 83 countries and more singing whatever seems right to them, and thinking about what happened and the roots of it and the consequences of it for all of us. If that's a thousand different songs in a thousand diffeent languages, all the better.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Burke
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 02:21 PM

On September 11 always remember, and each and every September 12, take some time that day to take stock of where you are and what you're doing. Ask yourself, 'What am I doing to help my neighbor, my community, my nation? Am I doing something to make a difference?' Each year, recommit yourself to the spirit of September 12.

--U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Christie Whitman, Hamilton College Commencement, May 26, 2002

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 03:08 PM

Amos,
To each his/her own, I respect your decision to not participate with a group because of what it would mean to you. Some of us will participate for varying reasons and that's ok too, as I said, to eash his/her own.

McGrath,
I totally agree with you, a lot of people will be remembering that day and to some it will be almost as difficult as the day itself....and they will do it in a way that is meaningful to them.

Burke,
My wife just got her Masters at Widener where Christie Todd Whitman wa the main speaker and she used essentially the same speach. I thought she was very sensitive to the issues and was very NON-political with what could have been a very political subject....I was very impressed.

Frank

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:22 PM

My Country Tis Of Thee is lovely. I also like the idea of everybody singing what they like, in their own language as the song travels around the world.

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 04:35 PM

this land is your land works well....especially since so many people have wrote versions of it fitting their own countries....

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: BH
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

I am not a Christian, but I will say that Amazing Grace--to me--is the most meaningful of hymns. It is a song of peace and has evolved into a non sectarian piece.

I would add that the changing of the word "wretch" to "soul" by Paul Robeson made the song just perfect for me. As Robeson said; "...we are not wretches but human souls". When---not if--I go I want that played---and that version.

But as a previous writer noted---whatever brings you peace and serenity is what you should sing, hear, or do whatever you will.

A final though----have we now replaced 12/7 with 9/11. The tragedies mount do they not? And not just in this land.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Sep 02 - 08:03 PM

no..can't do my country tis of thee..

first of all, the tune is GOD save the queen...first of all it is religious. next of all it is imperialistic. P

then someone might want to do one of the next verses..

My father's GOD to thee, author of liberty...

keep on trying though. I think we are down to Somewhere Over the Rainbow..Small World...the Coke Commercial (rots your teeth though and corrupts developing countries)and I'm looking over a 4 leaf clover. Perhaps someone can think of more that people spanning several generations know, that have a tune, that have a message and neither include people we don't like or exclude people such as ourselves who have the hot line to righteousness.

mg

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 05:26 AM

Always look on the bright side of life?

Subject: RE: Song memorial for September 11
From: Pennny
Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:06 PM

How about We Are The World ? We could be here all night trying to think of a song or act that would symbolically link us all to the events of September Eleventh. Why not just give thanks to the appropriate one for all that we have and all that each one of us can do to alleviate suffering around us and in our world. Listen to others' words more than your own. Maybe a minute of silence with appreciation for the bird's song or even a train whistling along .Just a thought.